Naruni bombs....

[Braden Campbell]

The Naruni Corporate Army uses an enhanced version fo the Fire Eater Attack ship. In doing some math for my article though, I have figured out that the fighter carries 32 bombs, and that each bomb weighs about 125 lbs.

So is it too much to have K-hex enhanced bombs doing D4x100 MDC?
________________________________________________________




The math, just so you know where the figure comes from: 1 lb of K-hex pastique does (D6x10 MDC) x 125 = 7500 =====> which is waaay too much, but the big barrel bombs on the MAC III (Robotech) did D4x100 IIRC... so that seems like a good compromise.

[Carl Gleba]

It that going to be per bomb or for the whole load?

Yeah if you increased the blast radius to several hundred feet I could see per bomb I suppose. Several dozen bombs doing a D4x100 over a large area, YOW! Bye Bye Echo Base.

Carl

[glitterboy2098]

32 bombs?

:shudder:


scary thought. but where would it mount all those? the fighter isn't all that big, and the bombs couldn't be all that small.


and if you mount 32 bombs to the fighter, what will it's performance be? external ordinance would degrade it's speed and manuverbility, from excess mass if nothing else.

[Braden Campbell]

It carries 32 bombs. I'm not making it up.

As for the bomb weight: "Cargo: Bomb bay can be filled up with 2 tons of cargo or bombs" (Dimension Book 3, pg. 84)

4000 lbs/ 32 bombs = 125 lbs per bomb.

[Braden Campbell]

It that going to be per bomb or for the whole load?


Carl

I was thinking per bomb....

I Know, I know... kind of unbalanced. But if it makes any difference, only Naruni Corporate Security gets to use them...

Oh, and here is some more math to consider:
As printed, a bomb does 4D6x10 MDC. Times 32 bombs is a potential for 7680 points of damage.

As stated in my first post, 125 pounds of K-hex would inflict the same. So from this we can deduce that an average, available-on-the-market Naruni bomb has 4 lbs of explosive in it (4D6x10 MDC). So a bomb is 100lbs of dead weight and circuitry?

[Braden Campbell]

32 bombs?


and if you mount 32 bombs to the fighter, what will it's performance be? external ordinance would degrade it's speed and manuverbility, from excess mass if nothing else.

Internal bomb bay. And contra-gravity eliminates such things as "weight"... so no direct impact on flight performance.

[Syndicate]

The Naruni Corporate Army uses an enhanced version fo the Fire Eater Attack ship. In doing some math for my article though, I have figured out that the fighter carries 32 bombs, and that each bomb weighs about 125 lbs.

So is it too much to have K-hex enhanced bombs doing D4x100 MDC?
________________________________________________________




The math, just so you know where the figure comes from: 1 lb of K-hex pastique does (D6x10 MDC) x 125 = 7500 =====> which is waaay too much, but the big barrel bombs on the MAC III (Robotech) did D4x100 IIRC... so that seems like a good compromise.

1D4X100 would nearly double the damage of the orignial bombs. I suppose that's acceptable. Limiting their "enhancement" to mearly bombs seems...hollow, but I'm sure you've got more up-your-sleeve.

[KLM]

Few things to note:

1,
The "bombs" of the Fire Eater (or the Rain of Death shuttle, from RMB2)
are LRM warheads with a vastly reduced engine, so half the size
and mass, one third or one-fourth range, same warhead.

2,
Currently, the CS manufactures better warheads, than anyone in the
three galaxies. (By the book, of course) - but the CS LRM's seem to
be the size of a current ICBM.

3, DMB2, page 172 states that 48 LRM's are one ton - and that is
like 40 or so pounds per missile.

----------------------

And contra-gravity eliminates such things as "weight"... so no direct impact on flight performance.

Err... This line of thought with a logical exagerration leads to
the conclusion, that the engines of the Silverhawk PA could
propell the Doombringer Dreadnought.

But it is not the case - because for bigger weight and the same
performance one needs bigger CG drive (and more energy).

On the other hand, the Fire Eater's performance is given with
full load. Besides, the Fire Eater is 15 tons fully loaded - so a
2 ton payload is well below similar IRL data.

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

1D4X100 would nearly double the damage of the orignial bombs. I suppose that's acceptable. Limiting their "enhancement" to mearly bombs seems...hollow, but I'm sure you've got more up-your-sleeve.

The corporate upgrade is fully trans-atmospheric, much faster, and has many bonuses to fly and maneuver. The Plasma cartridge guns have also been replaced by heavy particle beams, so the pilots don't need to count their ammo supplies.

[KLM]

It is simple physics.

Any spacecraft with a small engine can reach vast speeds
- if the engine has enough "fuel".

But...

...acceleration will be next to nothing. This means no
"space opera" like manouverability, but more like
heavily calculated "optimal" trajectories, and years
to reach the limits of a given star system (as it is the
case today, with the first working ion drive).

So, a CG "jetpack" can propell a Doombringer... But reaching
the Moon from Earth Orbit would take weeks.

Adios
KLM

[Jefffar]

Heavy bombs wouldn't be bad at all. Perhaps in addition to the heavy K-Hex bombs, maybe something else similar to a cruise missile warhead for ship kills.

[Braden Campbell]

The bombs now each do D4x100 for a blast radius of 150'. Plus, they have a smart guidance system.

Thanks all. When your GMs wipe your characters off the map using Corporate Fire-Eaters.... think back to this thread.

[KLM]

Errr... Just a clarification:
The corporate bombs are freefall/glide bombs or
have the - cca. - 300 km range of "standard" Three
Galaxies bombs?

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

Errr... Just a clarification:
The corporate bombs are freefall/glide bombs or
have the - cca. - 300 km range of "standard" Three
Galaxies bombs?

Adios
KLM

They are guided. Which makes me wonder at the difference between a missile and a bomb after you hit a certain tech level...

[KLM]

Propulsion is the difference.

I mentioned GLIDE, not guided bombs...
(I took it granted, that they are guided... But with a
blast radius of 150', which is near 50 meters, they
might not need guidance).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

As far as I know, DMB2, page 163. mentions at the
Star Ghost's OP field, that it cannot resolidify inside
ships and solid objects.

But PA's can enter a starship... Throught the armor
(OP). So, why not "penetrator" torpedoes?
Of course, with TW too...

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Or they just turn back for another attack. Smart missiles
are usually do this, right?

And you do not want to waste your OP field on a dumb
missile... Or do you?

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Or they just turn back for another attack. Smart missiles
are usually do this, right?

And you do not want to waste your OP field on a dumb
missile... Or do you?

Adios
KLM

Provided it is a "smart" missile......

Err... An OP field is 60.000 credit and minimum, and a
NE "smart" guidance system is 15.000 - but raises the
to hit ratio significantly.

Sssooo... NOT using smart weapons is usually the
non cost-effective solution.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

If tinkered in the cargo bay, maybe.

But one does not see hazy, or hear sounds muffled
when OP, nor do NE hardware is prone to malfunctions.

Adios
KLM

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

You guys are leaving out the Force Feld Disruptor that lets your Smart OP'ed Heavy Anti-Matter Cruise Missle[1d4x1000 MD?] bypass force fields entirely. Overall, that's a pretty moderate investment to all but guarantee that you can totally destroy nearly any vessel in a single shot.

[KLM]

I would say that fit an OP field on a Silverhawk, and
modify it to carry a suitable warhead.

Steps:
1, Penetrate shields (cloaked, no less)
2, Penetrate armor OP
3, Solidify in a quiet corner
4, Leave explosive device in corner, set timer to 3,012 secs
5, Go to OP
6, Kiss the wreck good bye, and return to mothership for
the next mission

Ouch...

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Nukes are overrated when used against hard targets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prinz_Eugen

One does have to be accurate with even a nuke, if
targetting a capital ship.

Adios
KLM

[Jefffar]

Nukes do need to be targeted properly. They also come in varying degrees of power. Like any weapon system, you have to choose the right nuke and the right delivery method to do the job as per your target.

[Jefffar]

Fusion blocks?

Just because the blast radius is half a mile, it doesn't mean the power of the blast is enough to break through the armour (though I bet that it would be scoured clean of external systems).

[Jefffar]

There would definitely be lots of effects (A point blank EMP from a nuke should cause lots of fun in the electrical system) that even if the ship survived, it could be scored as a "mission kill"

[Jefffar]

It would probably have a cmbinatuion of it's orgional momentuma dn any mommentum it picked up from the blast.

By Mission Kill I mean that it can no longr effectively accomplish it's mission. In these circumstances I doubt the shift will have any functional sensors or external weapon systems. It will have sevre structural and engine damage. Internal power would probably be offline and several decks would have major or minor hull breaches (assuming there wasn't jsut a huge gash inside of the ship). Any survivng crew are going to be too busy trying to put out fires and do damage control for the ship to do any fighting.

[KLM]

Dunno, it is just my 2 cents, but I would rule,
that a 100 kT nuke might be able to gut a frigate in the
Three galaxies, but only from the inside, as shields
will hold.

But that is just my interpretation.

Adios
KLM

[Jefffar]

I wonder if the EMP from a Nuke would disupt the shield systems rendering them offline before the force fo the blast was expended agains them? I know there are probably pretty hefty EMP hardening, but still, a point blank from a high powered nuke will do kinds of nasty.

[glitterboy2098]

probly not. if the sheilds stop lasers and plasma, EMP isn't going to have much of an effect.

i always figured the 3G's sheilds are gravitic, creating a 'bubble' of anti-gravity around the ship, 'pushing away' the incoming shots.
the sheilds take damage because some energy would transfer regardless, so each hit makes the sheild generator wear out.

you could cancel out the sheilds with a large gravity pulse though...

[KLM]

I think EMP hardening is "default" for MDC stuff.

Plus 3 Galactic shields stop electromagnetic energy -
be in laser, microwave or EMP - for a while (ie. untill
their MDC is depleted).

Now as for starships (or MDC) vs. nukes... I have linked
in the fate of the Prinz Eugen, a WWII german cruiser,
at wikipedia. The ship survived two atomic tests and
then sunk slowly.

Sooo... an MDC structure would survive better. Maybe
10 MD damage per kiloton at ground zero for nukes...?

Adios
KLM

[Esckey]

I figure everything would be EMP sheilded, you still have to protect your ship from anything natural occuring. Solar Flares and the likes.

I think one that that should be considered is where the sheild is in comparison to the ship. Is it a bubble around the ship, or is it skin tight, never being farther then 2cm from the surface of the ship

[Jefffar]

I would say an armoured warship of WW2 would be something we could describe as an MDC structure.

There is also a question of the power of the weapons involved. Get a powerful enough nuke close enough, I'm sure you could overload the shields and then crack a Doombringer in half.

While even a "light" nuke has incredible destructive power, the effects of a multi megaton blast are pretty much unbeilivable.

I would also expect that the tech level of the Three Galaxies has advanced to the poitn where Gigaton yield weapons are possible.

Incidently, I doubt that if the Prince had been fully equipped and manned before the first test blast, that she would have been able to do much afterwards. I would suspect that almsot all the external sensors and other unarmoured components would have been taken off. Her crew would haev been tossed around. Internal equipment shaken loose and all other kinds of nasty. I suspect if she had been fully equipped and manned at the time of the test, her broken and battered crew would have been only able to perform damage control and rescue operations. And if she was skinking they would be in real dire straits because all the lifeboats on board would have been burned off.

Again, maybe not total destruction, but definitely a mission kill.

[KLM]

I would say an armoured warship of WW2 would be something we could describe as an MDC structure.

Unfortunately, a significantly tougher (for the size) modern MBT
is still not an MDC. One probable reason is, that when you
hit them (both the ship and the MBT) with a 7.62 round, it will hurt
sensors, communication equipment, exposed weaponry etc.

There is also a question of the power of the weapons involved. Get a powerful enough nuke close enough, I'm sure you could overload the shields and then crack a Doombringer in half.

The term: "powerful enough" is the key. A multi-megaton
warhead explosion - according to my quessimation above
would cause several tens of thousands MD... Which is in
the range of the Doombringers shields.

I snipped the gigaton thingie, since in Rifts it looks like
they somehow managed create more damaging, yet
concentrated blasts.

Incidently, I doubt that if the Prince had been fully equipped and manned before the first test blast, that she would have been able to do much afterwards. I would suspect that almsot all the external sensors and other unarmoured components would have been taken off. Her crew would haev been tossed around. Internal equipment shaken loose and all other kinds of nasty. I suspect if she had been fully equipped and manned at the time of the test, her broken and battered crew would have been only able to perform damage control and rescue operations. And if she was skinking they would be in real dire straits because all the lifeboats on board would have been burned off.

Again, maybe not total destruction, but definitely a mission kill.

And that is another proof for me, that a WWII warship is not an
MDC structure.

After all, a GB after a hit from a Boom Gun is supposed to have
a living and conscious pilot, and be able to return fire. Not in the
case of SDC craft. (ie. hit seriously).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

hmm... does it says somewhere in the #G or Anvil Galaxy, that when in a plasma field, the electromagnetic force will render all starships' shields unuseable?

A large plasma field - according to my knowledge - in
the Solar System is the corona of our Sun... Yeah, it
can snuff out shields.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Yes, if they are powerful enough. You know - deplete enough MDC.

Adios
KLM

[Jefffar]

If a Cruiser or a Battletank don't count as MDC structures, nothing in Rifts should count. Heck a modern tank is the MDC structure example used in the Rifts main book.

As for the outer stuff getting peeled off, even if yo do use the MDC system as a way of enforcing reality, then the lower MDC items mounted opn the outside of the ship's hull are destroyed by the blast depleting their MDC.

Oh, for those thinking a gravity pulse might disrupt 3 Galaxies shields - did you notice that the TGE uses Singularity cruise missiles? Might be entertaining.

[Braden Campbell]

I'm just checking in after a few days...

is this post still remotely concerned with my Naruni bomb "upgrade"?

[Borast]

sure, I'd let them have Anti-Matter warheads too...

I have specialists in the Social Studies Branch that have AM warhead micro-missiles they launch from wrist gauntlets and hell-grenades that those Multi-rifles can shoot (also their GL-74 on full burst).

I'm thinking each "AM warhead" does between 4D6x10 to 1D4x100 MD, each. I just haven't made up my mind.

They're not available to *everyone* in the company and they don't carry dozens of reloads (maybe 1 reload).

I'd probably scale it back to 30 bombs, +2 AM warheads, or 28 + 4.

maybe some tac-nukes too as well as their own nuclear damper technology.

Um...the only AM warheads in the 3Gs are in the, er, hands of the bad guys [edit: or is that the "good guys" - I can't remember if it was the TE or the CCW]...and they are cruise missiles, where most of the mass is super dense battery and field generators to keep the magnetic bottle stable.

The Naruni are not that much more advanced than the rest of the Galaxies that they can make MM AM tech... Besides, if they did, the batteries would be...large. The EM field from the magnetic bottle would set off every sensor for kilometres around (insufficent shielding). Even then...the warheads would weigh-in in the micro-gram category, likely no more powerful than the conventional warhead they replaced, and 1000's of times move expensive.

[Borast]

Few things to note:

2,
Currently, the CS manufactures better warheads, than anyone in the
three galaxies. (By the book, of course) - but the CS LRM's seem to
be the size of a current ICBM.

Frightening for a "technologically backward" civilisation, neh?

3, DMB2, page 172 states that 48 LRM's are one ton - and that is
like 40 or so pounds per missile.

For a missle able to fly several hundred to thousand(s) of kilometres? Someone performed inappropriate acts with the canine on that count!

And contra-gravity eliminates such things as "weight"... so no direct impact on flight performance.

Actually...the explanation in the book is simpler - it removes the effect of GRAVITY from the equation...not weight. This allows a smaller engine to drive the unit since the engine only has to push against the unit's mass (ie: defeat the force of inertia).

Err... This line of thought with a logical exagerration leads to
the conclusion, that the engines of the Silverhawk PA could
propell the Doombringer Dreadnought.

But it is not the case - because for bigger weight and the same
performance one needs bigger CG drive (and more energy).

On the other hand, the Fire Eater's performance is given with
full load. Besides, the Fire Eater is 15 tons fully loaded - so a
2 ton payload is well below similar IRL data.

Adios
KLM

True...the F-22 carries what is it, 8-12 medium-long range missiles in an internal weapon bay, with each missile weighing about 200 pounds or so. A "Cat-3" Load-Out on an F-16 can add what, over ten THOUSAND pounds (pushing the mass to over 30,000 pounds) of munitions and/or optional electronics? The A-10 Warhog carries a two TON gun (and almost a ton of ammo for it), and something in the neigbourhood of up to 16(?) two-hundred pound Hellfire missiles...

And if you want REALLY scarey load-out (missiles & guns), try the B-52 variant that carries, if I recall correctly, something like 20 missles per wing, plus several fuselage mounts, plus several rapid fire radar assisted computer-guided (turretted) heavy machineguns.

[KLM]

3, DMB2, page 172 states that 48 LRM's are one ton - and that is
like 40 or so pounds per missile.

For a missle able to fly several hundred to thousand(s) of kilometres? Someone performed inappropriate acts with the canine on that count!

Nope... A CG "jet" pack with like four E-clips, a warhead and
a guidance system in a missile case. Plausible.
Of course, if it had been a chemical missile, I would sig it is stupid.

And if you want REALLY scarey load-out (missiles & guns), try the B-52 variant that carries, if I recall correctly, something like 20 missles per wing, plus several fuselage mounts, plus several rapid fire radar assisted computer-guided (turretted) heavy machineguns.

Well, I was more pointing out the max. takeoff weight/weapons weight
ratio. The B-52 not really excels in that area (thought the sheer
amount of explosives it carries IS impressive).

I just stated, that from a 15 ton take-off weight, two tons are
not much. The F-16, the F-15E, the F-35 with external hardpoints
and the JAS-39 Gripen all exceed that ratio - and they are centuries
behind the NE.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

If a Cruiser or a Battletank don't count as MDC structures, nothing in Rifts should count. Heck a modern tank is the MDC structure example used in the Rifts main book.

Well... Somehow the late XXth century MBT is an SDC thing.
Tipically with AR 18 and 1100-1200 SDC.
Mercenaries, page 97.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

I'm just checking in after a few days...

is this post still remotely concerned with my Naruni bomb "upgrade"?

Yeah, we are trying to get a common point on the effects of
Yer Good Olde Nuke vs. MDC.

Remote, but a definite connection.

Adios
KLM

[Jefffar]

If a Cruiser or a Battletank don't count as MDC structures, nothing in Rifts should count. Heck a modern tank is the MDC structure example used in the Rifts main book.

Well... Somehow the late XXth century MBT is an SDC thing.
Tipically with AR 18 and 1100-1200 SDC.
Mercenaries, page 97.

Adios
KLM

And in the Main Book it's MDC, and in Robotech, battle tanks used in the Global Civil War (late 1990s) are MDC.