Sensory Information

[KLM]

While UWW ships are supposed to use magical sensors,
they are not elaborated.
The problem is, that both the CCW has access Noro
psylite technology, and the TGE has it Silhouette
TW and its share or Noros - therefore those
power blocks have their "supernatural" sensors.

Plus Rift-drive is said to be large, so the UWW only
mounts them on large vessels.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

DMB2 defines - at least - the ranges of starship sensors.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

DMB2 defines - at least - the ranges of starship sensors.

Adios
KLM

Sublight: 322000 km if not cloaked, 8000 km if cloaked
FTL: 1 LY for civilian, up to 10 LY for military

That is concrete enough.

Also states, that ship - unless indicated otherwise - have radar, sonar (?),
radiation, thermo, motion (?) and gravity wave sensors.

Not much else, thought.

Adios
KLM

[Nekira Sudacne]

just getting into the GSA or even CAF MI mindset, it's likely these people have knowledge of the United Worlds of Warlock's ability to "Rift Drive" (using the Flux Dimension as it were) and would be developing (if they haven't already) a defense/detection for this.

since in "regular sensors" ships travelling FTL disturb the space/time continuum, would you handle this the same way ? -- that is the opening of a Rift (from the Flux Dimension) momentarily disturbs the time/space continuum, such that it can be picked up on sensors ? or would you have it a disturbance that might be thought of as a "glitch" ?

obviously, GSA or CAFMI personnel on a starship, with the correct experience or background, might follow this up with additional sensor sweeps to find a vessel that has suddenly arrived.

you couple the Runner-stealth features with a Rift Drive and you only need to stay more than 5000 miles away from ships to remain unnoticed.

your thoughts ?

it says the Rift drive transport is instantious to the outside world, so there's no time to sense it until they're there. it only takes time for people inside, and the fact they acn only make so many jumps for so far per day.

[KLM]

Yeah, but somehow it looks like, that DMB2 sensors are not
able to detect Rifts-drives "hopping in".

As for it, I have a solution, besides the above "extra-sensory"
detections - opening a Rift is a spectacular show, probably
on all wavelenghts, so normal sensors detect it... Not
"realtime", but with the lag of lightspeed (ie. arriving
via Rift drive near the Pluto, it will take hours for the
sensors on the Moon to detect.)

Of course, any place, where smugglers are not welcome,
will have several sensory satellites (with FTL communication
to the command center).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Reiterating:
It looks like, FTL sensor do not pick opening Rifts, as per DMB2.
Period.

However, if we take a look on the picture in the RMB, when
from a miles high Rift thousand of Xicitic swarm out...

Now, that it a lightshow, which will be picked up by those
sensors, which are able to detect a starship visually from
like 5000 miles.

Adios
KLM

[Nekira Sudacne]

it says the Rift drive transport is instantious to the outside world, so there's no time to sense it until they're there. it only takes time for people inside, and the fact they acn only make so many jumps for so far per day.

I can read what it says, but opening up a Rift in the fabric of the universe might qualify for "disturbing the space/time continuum". If it does then this works for the Wormhole spell and might be able to track down Planetary Rifts as well.

I'm looking for applications outside "the box".

Don't worry, I don't expect YOU to give it a thumbs up.

It's been a while sinse I read the book. can phase world sensors sense distubances in the space/time continum in the first place?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's been a while sinse I read the book. can phase world sensors sense distubances in the space/time continum in the first place?

it's the typical PB: don't ask why, it just does it. don't think, just be happy.

I ask a lot of these questions because of the players. if you're players are "on the ball" they'll soon find ways to distort things so that it's detecting a ley-line phase on a moon 3 parsecs distant.

of course I'm kidding.

sometimes you have to plumb through the logic behind the "PB: don't ask just believe it" because it can help you find out other things. and help the GM prevent the greedy types from ruining the game with "yet another discussion of the rules".

forewarned is fore-armed.

that dosn't answer my question, I was looking for a yes/no answer. once I have that I can debate further

[Nekira Sudacne]

that dosn't answer my question, I was looking for a yes/no answer. once I have that I can debate further

so what you're saying is that if you knew what you were talking about you'd have more to say ?!

I'm not here to educate you about PW rules. If you can't bring intelligence to the discussion, your views aren't needed/wanted.

read the book and answer if you want. if you don't answer, then we'll proceed with the others who know what they're talking about.

I can't begin to tell you how many idiotic answers I've gotten from people that have no clue as to what the question was about, but who are bored and thought they toss in their "best guess" at what the heck the question was about. "You can't do that..." and if they bothered to read the section, it states "you can".

i'm saying there's a single point on the rules I couldn't remember, otherwise i'm rather well versed on the subject

[Nekira Sudacne]

i'm saying there's a single point on the rules I couldn't remember, otherwise i'm rather well versed on the subject

yeah, I know and what I'm saying is:

when you read them, then come back and post.

and if my books are currently being used by someone else?

you realize of course your wasting more time arguing about giving an answer than the time your trying to save in not giving it

[Nekira Sudacne]

and if my books are currently being used by someone else?

that's you're problem...so, do you need any cash ? we could take up a collection.

I'm not sure we'd get any takers.

you realize of course your wasting more time arguing about giving an answer than the time your trying to save in not giving it

that's OK, I usually keep my own rulings and listen to a few (very few) posters on this BBS. This place is my "2nd string" for Rifts answers.

Nice derail job BTW, you didn't win, but hey, at least you proved you can't answer the question by just adding a lot of lame off-topic posts.

me? I wasn't going off topic until you didn't answer my question. my question was directly on topic.

and besides, i'm not saying I havn't read it, i'm saying "did I miss something"

see, if I DID miss it, then reading it again might not actually help. so I'm asking you if I did.

your just being stubborn for...well I can't tell why honestly.

[KLM]

After a venting of the passanger area:

a FTL "radar screen" would be hard pressed to "map" the area within it's boundaries. It'd be a subjective "model" at best.

ever seen those Trek FTL sensor readouts where the "logo" of the ship is like 2 AU across ?
(...snip...)
of course some people couldn't handle that and need the "I know everything, see everything" sensory model.

Gadrin, even IRL sensors are getting better resolution than any
screen (or even the Mark I. eyeball). But somehow, it is solved.

Like adding a tag to the object, and making possible to zoom on
a given number of tags (depending on the system in question)
simultanously.

So, I hope you meant this as a joke and did not mean seriously,
that starfaring cultures cannot overcome this problem.
(On a second thought, PB also comes to this conclusion )

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

an easy way to handle it would be to just sit down and think it through.

for example, there are no Trek FTL sensors, so everything has the speed of light lag. so active sensors (like RADAR or LiDAR) will be mostly useless beyond 300,000 kilometers. thats 1 light second. (about the distance from earth to the moon, it's about 1.3 ls) at 300,000km, your seeing info from 1 seconds ago, and it takes 2 seconds to do a sweep. since 2 seconds is an eternity in combat (almost 1 action), you'll actually be limited to less than 100,000km for rapid returns. non-combat sweeps, like for navigation or the like, you can get by with longer wait times, so your range extends.

so a good guide is
Combat: under 100,000km
non-combat 2-3 light seconds, basically 600,000km to 900,000km

now, your resolution will vary, so only the high end sensors will be able to pull this off effectively. smaller craft like fighters and shuttles are likely to only be able to get good returns 1/8 to 1/4 that, and most big ships are lucky if they have 1/2 that. the full range would be things like large dedicated reconships, science vessels, ect. remeber size plays a part too. so a dedicated recon fighter might get 1/4 the max, instead of 1/8th. a recon shuttle might get 1/2 instead of 1/4th...ect.


note that phaseworlds 'gravity wave radar' would have the same limitations. gravity waves are speed of light propogation, and would have the same time lag as RADAR. and given that gravity waves are extremely weak, it would most likely only reflect off things with a CG drive




now passive sensors have longer range, but are less combat effective. these are the sensors that tell you something is coming, but not much else. repeated observations would allow you to plot the course of the object/bogey, but don't expect up to date info.

these run a gamut.
thermal sensors are KING in space. background radiation averages about 3 kelvin. most objects will be averaging a few Hundred kelvin. like shining a laser pointer on the wall of a pitchblack room. of course, the stars will be hotter. but those are much farther away, and will show up as a much smaller point source, so a closer, cooler object will appear 'brighter' on a thermal image. i couldn't find an effective range of this stuff, but i'd say a few light minutes, about 60x that of the active sensors. again, ship size will play a role. a smaller ship won't have as much room to mount the good thermal gear, so it's going to have less resolution, and thus won't be able to 'see' as far effectively.

passive radio detectors would be very effective. things like RADAR can be detected much further away than the RADAR's effective range, especially since it doesn't have to carry any actual info, just it's presence and signal strength. so if your using your active sensors, your enemies could be undetected due to range and know exactly where you are. not sure on the numbers for this thing. i'd say somewhere between 10 and 30x on the low end.

Gravity sensors.....since this is a scifi tech thing really (we have gravity wave sensors in RL, but they're HUGE, serveral miles on a side huge), i'll just have to do a WAG (wild *** Guess), and say they probably have a range equivelent to the termal sensors. you'd be able to sense strength, frequency, maybe a bit of modulation. from that you could get an idea of the targets velocity, drive style, maybe even a bit on it's power levels.



Psychic and magical sensors are GM's call. personally i'd give limits, give them a touch of lag to keep from the trek "instant knowledge" style of gameplay.

[glitterboy2098]

http://forums.nexusnine.net/ikonboard.cgi?s=336a8e0985e51ff8bc2091abbcd38ade;act=ST;f=18;t=501;



i read a lot of classic Scifi, and i play classic battletech, and i couldn't stand the "mach in space with pathetic ranges" set up.

so i fixed it.

a lot of schlock mercenary worked it's way in. for example, did you now that objects travelling through a solar wind at a substantial percent of C create a radiation backscatter that can be used to detect those objects from a great distance out?

[KLM]

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts ... ipment.htm

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

My *guess* is that when disturbances in the space/time continuum (STC) occur you actually know very little. So if a craft is disturbing the STC you get some sort of "detection blip". You have no idea what kind of craft (or that it is acraft -- watchout for those Cosmo-Knights!) it is.

Actually passive sensors do provide quite an amount of data
about their targets.

You have a position, a vector, a relative size of the disturbance,
and it is not unreasonable to each "class" of vessel to have its
own, distinct profile.

But since it is not detailed by canon, it is up to the GM (and the party).

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

Wow! All that knowledge for sensors.....

An object a light year away can still be detected, but what is the use if the wave carrying the data is travelling at light speed? It will be a year before it reaches the user........

The idea I guess is to use "Handwavium". Sensors use FTL tech for detecting things at a long distance.

so in canon, we have FTL active sensors. but no FTL comms.

then why the heck aren't we flipping the sensors on and off in morse code?
if you have one, your likely to have another. radio came before radar, afterall.

[KLM]

Wow! All that knowledge for sensors.....

An object a light year away can still be detected, but what is the use if the wave carrying the data is travelling at light speed? It will be a year before it reaches the user........

The idea I guess is to use "Handwavium". Sensors use FTL tech for detecting things at a long distance.

so in canon, we have FTL active sensors. but no FTL comms.

then why the heck aren't we flipping the sensors on and off in morse code?
if you have one, your likely to have another. radio came before radar, afterall.

There ARE FTL comms, they were first detailed in the
DMB3 (in the beginning of the book).

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

you mean the Ansible, Psychic, or magical systems, that have limited application and spread, and none of which have been accepted for general use?


i wish the writers would use more Hard SciFi, and less star trek. it would make things easier for all of us.

the first 2 books pretty much said "no FTL comms or sensors."
now we have books with FTL sensors, and well done, but badly implimented FTL comms.....

[KLM]

the first 2 books pretty much said "no FTL comms or sensors."
now we have books with FTL sensors, and well done, but badly implimented FTL comms.....

Like the DMB3, page 7 , which gives FTL communication
at 100 LY/h for communications?!


Or DMB2, page 253, which states that military sensors can
detect FTL ships from 10 LYs?
Of course nothing nailed down, that in this case it was a
"realtime" sensor, but of course, knowing that 10 years ago
something passed in the next solar system is usefull nonetheless,
to say so.

Sorry, wrong guess GB.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

That's the spirit

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Can't imagine an endangered vessel sends an emergency broadcast on STL, even though the ship is "just" half a light year away, it will still take them half a year to receive the message, but able to arrive at the scene within the hour.

Err... It was just the sensors, which were not clearly stated as FTL.

Communication is clearly stated to have a speed of 100 LY/h.
That is like 3 minutes to the Proxima Centaury.

Adios
KLM