Christianity & BTS RPG - PLEASE READ FIRST POST

[Steve Dubya]

I have done this very similar thread in the Rifts forum and adding it to the BTS forum because: 1) so many people were playing nice and civil and 2) I expect that the BTS horror crowd might have little bit more experience with some of this.

I’m going to start this thread with a disclaimer post, so please read this before you go on (assuming that you haven’t seen this thread before).

I am not looking to offend anyone’s religious sensibilities. If you think that the attempted adaptation of certain elements of the Christian mythos might offend you, please stop reading. I am not looking to step on religious toes or try to devalue a belief system by having some elements show up in an RPG setting.

If you think that the adaptation of said certain elements of the Christian mythos might be too much of a incendiary topic, please note that I am already aware that this could offend people, and I am not looking to keep hearing this over and over again. So please – if all you have to offer is, “This is going to make people mad” – I already have come to that conclusion, thus why I am writing this.

The following is going to be an attempt to see what others may have done in terms of adapting elements of the Christian mythos (notably angels, demons and other elements brought up in the Bible) to an RPG setting, most specifically BTS.

I understand that not everyone is comfortable with this sort of topic, so if you know that you aren’t, please don’t continue with the rest of the thread – you are likely to end up getting upset.

I am not looking to have (too much) of a theological discussion of morality, but rather how the elements that have been mentioned might work into the RPG setting.

Having said all of this, I do not anticipate that the ideas in question will draw “heavy fire” from those who may not agree due to faith. The majority of those who would have the most serious issues with these ideas probably are not overly comfortable with role-playing in general, and definitely not in a setting where demons and monsters run so rampantly.

I am not afraid to present my ideas for the fear of drawing criticism (the moderators are more than capable of determining if this is somehow offensive enough to delete, and if this is the case I will be more than happy to abide by their decision). If you feel the need to attack me or the ideas in question owing to your personal beliefs, I will definitely report the issue to the moderators and they can have the final say.

I appreciate you taking the time to read this and I hope that productive discussion results from the posts from hereon. Having said that, on with the show…

[Steve Dubya]

So, what prompted this was I remembered some time ago that I had taken elements of a more Christian-prompted version of angels and demons and tried to work them into something that could be used in the BTS setting. Naturally, I can’t seem to find this document. I do remember that there were different categories of angels and demons, with differing powers (which in turn were derived from HU2).

Now, I wasn’t looking to provide “stats” for God, or Jesus, or whatever. I think that the CB2 covered that pretty well when it came to omnipotent/omnipresent deities. What I was trying to do was fit some of the beings known as angels and demons into Rifts a little more specifically to Christianity than had been previously covered (the “demons” are really just nasty monsters and the “angels” seem to just be elemental forces of good).

So I did some thinking about the angels and demons mentioned by name in the Bible (which there aren’t many) and some of the others that are mentioned in passing. For example, the only angels mentioned by name were Lucifer (“lightbringer”), Michael and Gabriel, whilst the named demons were merely Satan (which I want to say means “enemy” or “adversary” depending on the translation) and Legion. The “Angel of Death” mentioned in the story of Moses seems to have been a title rather than an actual name, and it is speculated that Michael might have had that title. The only other angels mentioned by “type” were the seraphim, who were the carriers of the Throne of God.

Now, there isn’t much to go on here if a literal interpretation is to be taken. Additionally, angels seemed to be made of the same “stuff” that God was – “spirit,” which apparently once created could not be uncreated. Thus, angels would be very unbalancing if merely unstoppable juggernauts – agents of the Lord, if you will. So, by taking some of the various other stories and ideas that various churches have come up with regarding the ideas of angels and demons, I assigned my own traits and abilities to them.

There were the Templar angels, who were the warriors, had the ability to alter their limbs into weapons. There were the Lightbringers, who had (duh) light powers. The Chorals derived their abilities from the songs (read: sonic powers) they sang. There were a firey-type demon and an ice-type demon. There was a demon that had its powers based off a horror factor that would increase as more people were terrified of it (and conversely would go down when confronted by the strong of heart).

Assuming that the one friend of mine who I had spoken to originally about this kept a copy, I will be certain to add that (should it show up).

But I am curious as to how others may have integrated the Christian mythos into the BTS setting. I know that in one BTS campaign I was in it centered around a box that was locked with 12 keys that were left to one each of the original disciples (and made out of the cross), and when the box was opened (after much debate on whether it was a good idea or not) the Dark Day came about – it made for an unpleasant segue. Certainly BTS and this Nightbane would provide an adequate opportunity to probe some of the more compelling aspects of the Book of Revelations, and might even provide an entire campaign setting.

Has anyone done anything that is remotely similar?

If not, how have you done it?

[Sentinel]

I have recently begun using more J/C mythology. I had not bothered previously, and my players were generally content with that. But, I decided to expand my cosmology a bit, and include Angels and Christianic mythology (I realize that Christianity is a religion, but at one time so was the polytheistic pantheon of Olympus, so "mythology" works for me as a blanket term).
I allowed a player to have an angel as a PC, and began to work up a background story involving the War of Heaven and Hell. Much of that background has yet to be fully revealed, but there is a rich mine of material to use.
I also created (along with a former player) a secret order of the Catholic Church, and made them available to players, with my prior approval (mostly so I can keep certain things constant, without revealing too much to players who don't need to know certain details).

The enemies of Heaven of course, are demonic forces, but come from not only the Christian Hell, but other hellish planes as well. Thus I can draw upon many myths and faiths in my quest for opponents for Angelic forces and their allies.

I make religion an optional element of character background: if it's not something a player is interested in exploring or detailing then they don't have to. Regardless, everyone seems to like bashing demons and cultists, and evil mages

[Steve Dubya]

I allowed a player to have an angel as a PC

So, did you use a the given rules for "angels" in the CB1 book, or come up with something a little closer to a more "mainstream" Christian angel? Do you remember any of the powers/stats that you might have used?

I also created (along with a former player) a secret order of the Catholic Church, and made them available to players, with my prior approval (mostly so I can keep certain things constant, without revealing too much to players who don't need to know certain details).

Ah, the Catholic Church. Such easy targets for this sort of thing, what with the history that at times has been less than "churchy" (for evidence of this, look up Pope Innocence the IV - not exactly what I would describe as an "innocent" guy...).

Care to share any specifics, or is this a current gaming scenario?

[Library Ogre]

Christianity and Catholic (and Masonic, and Zionist) conspiracies work really well in BTS. However, I think that one of the first things that a GM needs to do is define what is "true" for their game.

First of all, ignore the afterlife, so far as heaven and hell are concerned... the ultimate fate of souls is unimportant. Can souls become temporarily trapped on the mortal plane as ghosts? That's more important in the story. Is there only one God in the heavens? Even if Christianity is in some sense true, the answer to that can be no... there can be other Gods, and Jesus is just one of many.

How are you going to handle standard horror tropes? Down the BTS page a bit there's a section hallowed ground... look at that. Decide what's hallowed, and what's not.

Really, I think religion in BTS is an even more touchy subject than in Rifts. In Rifts, if you're making a lot up, it can be justified by the 500 years separating today from 109 PA. With BTS, it's a lot harder to do that.

[Steve Dubya]

Really, I think religion in BTS is an even more touchy subject than in Rifts. In Rifts, if you're making a lot up, it can be justified by the 500 years separating today from 109 PA. With BTS, it's a lot harder to do that.

However, since BTS is a much more "current" setting than Rifts, there is also a lot more that you can base of what is actually taking place in the world around you. There are stories all the time of people coming forward accusing those in the clergy of doing very, very bad things to them in the past - why would this not translate (in the BTS world) to members of the clergy doing "different bad" things?

Certainly there is more than ample room to sort of "Biblically explain" some of the phenomena in BTS - demons do a good job of explaining most of the nasties. The PC's then obviously might represent a touch of the divine (or perhaps unholy) and its subsequent effect on the world around...

[Library Ogre]

Really, I think religion in BTS is an even more touchy subject than in Rifts. In Rifts, if you're making a lot up, it can be justified by the 500 years separating today from 109 PA. With BTS, it's a lot harder to do that.

However, since BTS is a much more "current" setting than Rifts, there is also a lot more that you can base of what is actually taking place in the world around you. There are stories all the time of people coming forward accusing those in the clergy of doing very, very bad things to them in the past - why would this not translate (in the BTS world) to members of the clergy doing "different bad" things?

Please note that I said it was a touchy subject... that's why it's a problem. If you start saying bad things about the church 500 years ago, or 500 years in the future, it is less likely to cause problems within your group than saying something bad about the church NOW.

[Steve Dubya]

If you start saying bad things about the church 500 years ago, or 500 years in the future, it is less likely to cause problems within your group than saying something bad about the church NOW.

I suppose it depends on how well you know the rest of your group and how well their opinions/thoughts/values might mesh with yours.

For example, most of the guys that I RP with are friends first, RP buddies second. I knew them before I really got into the whole RP scene, so we never had any issue with discussing any sort of uncomfortableness about such topics.

But I could see how this could become an issue if you strictly got together for gaming sessions and might not necessarily know each other all that well.

[Library Ogre]

If you start saying bad things about the church 500 years ago, or 500 years in the future, it is less likely to cause problems within your group than saying something bad about the church NOW.

I suppose it depends on how well you know the rest of your group and how well their opinions/thoughts/values might mesh with yours.

For example, most of the guys that I RP with are friends first, RP buddies second. I knew them before I really got into the whole RP scene, so we never had any issue with discussing any sort of uncomfortableness about such topics.

But I could see how this could become an issue if you strictly got together for gaming sessions and might not necessarily know each other all that well.

Yeah, well, the last group I gamed with met at the University of Houston Baptist Student Ministry. One of them was a (as in one of several) music director for a Galveston Methodist mega-church. Then there was me... the polytheist who, while raised Protestant, was highly familiar with medieval Catholicism and Judaism because of studying. I met them through the message boards on the Giant in the Playground (where Order of the Stick comes from)

Not the group to introduce this sort of topic into.

[Juankis]

As I live and game in Mexico, all of us are Catholics, and so far we have yet to find anyone with having an objection to depicting religion on the RP, even one of our friends who had a resurjance of faith after his baptismal.
So I guess it basically comes down to the sort of people you play with.

As a side note, one of the best campaings we ever had was when playing the In Nomine game, we all had a blast playing even when the demons won the final conflict for the campaing.

[Sentinel]

I allowed a player to have an angel as a PC

So, did you use a the given rules for "angels" in the CB1 book, or come up with something a little closer to a more "mainstream" Christian angel? Do you remember any of the powers/stats that you might have used?

I used a combination of character archtypes, based in part on PUII (Heroes Unlimited) and the angels/Spiritis of Light as presneting Dragons and Gods (PFRPG and Conversion Books).

I also created (along with a former player) a secret order of the Catholic Church, and made them available to players, with my prior approval (mostly so I can keep certain things constant, without revealing too much to players who don't need to know certain details).

Ah, the Catholic Church. Such easy targets for this sort of thing, what with the history that at times has been less than "churchy" (for evidence of this, look up Pope Innocence the IV - not exactly what I would describe as an "innocent" guy...).

Care to share any specifics, or is this a current gaming scenario?

It's very current.
But, feel free to join my Yahoo Group, and read the detailed history. I'd make it a Rifter Article: It's actually finished, but I don't want to sign over my rights on this one.

[Library Ogre]

But, feel free to join my Yahoo Group, and read the detailed history. I'd make it a Rifter Article: It's actually finished, but I don't want to sign over my rights on this one.

Oh Watchful One? You don't sign over any rights for a Rifter article aside from "Right to Publish Once". Heck, everything I've gotten published in the Rifter is still on my web page (except for the troglodyte stuff, and that's jsut because I haven't stuck it into HTML, yet).

Now, a book? Those you sell.

[Sir Neil]

The PCs have used the Catholic church several times. It plays its typical role in horror fiction, as a source of exorcists when the party lacks one. Of course, there was also Cammy the boxing nun, who helped the party defend the church when it was attacked by cultists serving the Lord of the Deep.

[Sentinel]

But, feel free to join my Yahoo Group, and read the detailed history. I'd make it a Rifter Article: It's actually finished, but I don't want to sign over my rights on this one.

Oh Watchful One? You don't sign over any rights for a Rifter article aside from "Right to Publish Once". Heck, everything I've gotten published in the Rifter is still on my web page (except for the troglodyte stuff, and that's jsut because I haven't stuck it into HTML, yet).

Now, a book? Those you sell.

Ah, I was under the impression I would be signing over the rights to Palladium regardless of the format it was published under.

That's a horse of another colour.

[Library Ogre]

Ah, I was under the impression I would be signing over the rights to Palladium regardless of the format it was published under.

That's a horse of another colour.

Send an e-mail to Wayne at rifter@palladiumbooks.com. I'm sure he can give you the details. When I finally get my contract for #34 (they still had my old address, I believe), I can also send you a copy, so you can see what they look like.

[Steve Dubya]

Although in some respects I find it a very sad thing that someone is afraid to discuss the most popular religion in the US due to fear of fringe elements.

I don't know if I would say that I was "afraid;" I am really more concerned with pissing people off (and thus having the thread shot down) when that isn't my intent at all. People can be just the teensy-est twitchy about this sort of thing.

I was pretty familiar with the Spawn concept, but I would not have guessed that about Evangelion. I don't know if I really want to invest that much time in something that will come to a horribly messy conclusion (sort of like most of Steve King's more recent works...). But thanks for the points in the right direction.

Ever done anything like this in one of your own campaigns?

[Sentinel]

I don't know if I would say that I was "afraid;" I am really more concerned with pissing people off (and thus having the thread shot down) when that isn't my intent at all. People can be just the teensy-est twitchy about this sort of thing.

I know how you feel.
I am usually one to avoid pitched religious discussions, aside from an occasional contribution here and there.

If the addition of a religious element will somehow enhance the game, I will work to include it, and make it palatable for the players.
If it won't somehow enhance the game, or if I know before hand players are going to be touchy on the subject, then I just leave it out.

[Steve Dubya]

One thing to consider though in a Christian themed game is that Christianity is all inclusive. Things come from god, or they do not (and if they grand supernatural power they are from the other side). This means that while there might be other religions that grant power of a sort they are ultimatly a tool of deception intended to get the followers to turn away from god. A Buddhist with traditional powers for example is d@mned because he is not praying to god (irregardless of what he believes) and might be surprised when meeting a demon to find it was the source of his powers.

I think that an interesting angle to play would be if there had been some sort of war between opposing factions that had fallen into legend (read: The Bible) and that these very powerful entities (not necessarily what they claim to be) were still playing out their games on Earth.

They wouldn't HAVE to be all powerful, and it might be interesting to see which group was actually the "good guys".

[Stattick]

Much more supernatural stuff, including info on angles and demons have been written about in ancient Judaic sources then what most Christians know about. To get a start on this subject, check out:

Encyclopedia Mythica

WARNING: Read at your own risk. You might find material here that will call into question your beliefs if you are any variety of Judeo/Christian.

[Stattick]

If you're looking for more Angel names do a search on google for "Lost books of the Bible" Check out the book of Enoch. It contains another version of the flood and more info on the sorcerers and giants that the Bible mentions....did the calculations and a giant would be roughly 11250 feet tall.

For more information about the choirs of angels do a search for the Angelican branch of Christianity. They are the specialists and have done the naming for Angel and Demon groups.

Oh, check out the Koran for info on the Efreet and Djinn.

Just some info I thought i'd pass on...I like as much realism as possible in my games....they should be fun but scary.

What do you mean that BtS shouldn't be scary? I thought that was the point.

EDIT: Oh, you said fun but scary. I thought you said fun but not scary. Yeah, I was having a blond moment.

[Steve Dubya]

I love this topic...reading it has given me ideas that i hadn't considered before...lets keep it going!

SB - maybe a thread at the Cafe would work since some of the ideas/concepts I have aren't exactly of the PG-13 variety that I share here...

[Puroresu]

I'm interested in getting a copy of Beyond the Supernatural: Second Edition because I want to try out a campaign with characters facing angels and demons in a modern-day setting. Some inspiration comes from In Nomine by Steve Jackson Games. Obviously, I don't want to do any conversions on here, but at least get some ideas. Nightbane might work out too. Three movies I could use for inspiration would be: The Omen, The Prophecy, and Constantine.

I really need to get Carl Gleba's Hades and Dyval books when they come out.

[Sir_Spirit]

Encyclopedia Mythica

WARNING: Read at your own risk. You might find material here that will call into question your beliefs if you are any variety of Judeo/Christian.

No it won't, at least, not if you've bothered to think about and study what you believe in.
If you are uneducated about your faith and just believe whatever your told then sure, but other than those types of pseudochristians we dont have much to worry about from that sight....
No offense, as the site is a great source of ideas, but that site's "logic" is conspiratorial at best.

[Sir_Spirit]

So, hmm, got some interesting ideas from this thread.

So I did some thinking about the angels and demons mentioned by name in the Bible (which there aren’t many) and some of the others that are mentioned in passing. For example, the only angels mentioned by name were Lucifer (“lightbringer”), Michael and Gabriel, whilst the named demons were merely Satan (which I want to say means “enemy” or “adversary” depending on the translation) and Legion. The “Angel of Death” mentioned in the story of Moses seems to have been a title rather than an actual name, and it is speculated that Michael might have had that title. The only other angels mentioned by “type” were the seraphim, who were the carriers of the Throne of God.

I want to say that Raphiel is also mentioned but I couldn't tell you where.
I also want to point out that Lucifer isn't mented in the Bible(though, to be fair-some christians claim that he is referenced in a poem).

Also, Shaitan is hebrew for Accuser(Old Testament), while Satan is greek for Adversary(New testament).
Sometimes people claim one means both or the other, they don't, but since they are two different names for the same person, I don't have a huge problem with it.
OTOH Lucifer was/is a different entity, an angel known a Samael('light of GOD'/'Light bearer') who rebelled against God and tried to take his place, changing his name to Lucifer("lightbringer") in the process to symbolise his knew role as no longer subservient to God, he failed (or did he? ).


_____________________________________________________________


Personaly I like the idea of having him be given to Satan to be punished and then having him corrupt/seduce Satan.
Also, I believe the jews once thought that stars were an order of beings similar to angels?
What if, at one time, they were?
Then for some reason or another, God(or some one else?) remade the universe according ot scinetific princibles?
(Say after the first Millenium, due to the Pope(of the Coptic/oriental church?)/Patriach(the papal equivalent of the Eastern Orthodox Church) having won humanity a temporary reprieve from the apocalypse.)
So the beings who were once stars had to move somewhere else?
Earth?the Astral plane?
Maybe they agreed to be merged with humans to produce the Guardians of Nightbane?

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

I want to say that Raphiel is also mentioned but I couldn't tell you where.

Raphael is mentioned in the OT book of "Tobit." Tobit is part of the Roman Catholic canon, but not the Protestant one.

I don't believe I've ever used Christian elements in BtS...which is weird, b/c I use them in almost all of my games. In a Star Trek RPG, I played a Jesuit priest who was the ship's science officer (and unofficail chaplain!).

A good book to read for inspiration for BtS, however, would be "The Devil's Day" by James Blish.

[Sir_Spirit]

Hmm, agreed, that's pretty good.

[Puroresu]

I agree, the Warrior Angel RCC is awesome! I want to see some more!

[MASTERMIND]

Have you thought about using the traditional structure of the choirs of angels as a basis for the angels you are working on? There are 9 choirs in the hierarchy and an angel within the choir fills a certain role.

Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones
Dominions
Virtues
Powers
Archangels
Principalities
Angels

Seraphim
The highest order/choir of angels. They are the guardians before God's throne. The Seraphim have 6 wings.

Cherubim
The second highest order/choir of angels. Worshipers of the glory of God and celestial attendants to the apocalypse.

Thrones
Angels of humility, peace, and submission. These angels exist where the material realm and the spiritual realm meet. The lower choirs of angels need the Thrones to access God.

Dominions
Angels of leadership, making known the commands of God.

Virtues
Angels of nature who control the elements. The control the seasons, stars, moon and sun. They are in charge of miracles and provide courage, grave, and valor.

Powers
Warrior angels defending the cosmos and humans. They fight evil spirits who attempt to wreak chaos through human beings.

Archangels
God's messengers to the people. These are the angels best known by human beings.

Principalities
Not sure how these guys fit in. I need to look up more information.

Angels
The common angel. Those who carry prayers to God and provide direct aid to human beings.

Okay, this was really crude and needs A LOT more work to be usable for anything but it was just a thought.

[MASTERMIND]

Also want to point out that is the traditional view of angels in Catholicism and Christianity. There are obviously other faiths with angels that view them differently. Don't want to offend anyone.

[Sir_Spirit]

Assasin Angel (Angel of Death).

While the assassin angels are totally awesome, the term "Angel of Death" used itneh Old Testament seems to often refer to a plague of some sort devastating an army.
Be very interesting to have a lague angel.
Though it's not something you could really play, otusoide of a war game like HOrdes/Magic:the gathering etc.....

[Sir_Spirit]

Seraphim
The highest order/choir of angels. They are the guardians before God's throne. The Seraphim have 6 wings.

Wings are traditionally colored red.

Cherubim
The second highest order/choir of angels. Worshipers of the glory of God and celestial attendants to the apocalypse.

Wings are traditionally depicted as blue in art, believed to have four heads or faces-(Lion/Ox/eagle/man...). Though others believe they have no definite shape. Often assigned to guard things{ Eden, gates to paradise, God's throne etc...}

Thrones
Angels of humility, peace, and submission. These angels exist where the material realm and the spiritual realm meet. The lower choirs of angels need the Thrones to access God.

Ophanim(sp?) or 'wheels'[ If you look up "UFO's in the Bible" you should find an passage in Ezekiel that gave them this nickname].
Got Golden wings traditionally.

Dominions
Angels of leadership, making known the commands of God.

Well, actually Dominions are area's of mastery and territory, basically. If there is an Angle of the USA/Canada/USSR, Order/chaos. They'd be Dominions. Often have sceptres with orbs of light on the end.
IF one lent you his sceptre, that orb might useful against demons/undead.

Virtues
Angels of nature who control the elements. The control the seasons, stars, moon and sun. They are in charge of miracles and provide courage, grave, and valor.

These are also known as Malakim. They run the physical universe basically. While they might not be ferocious warriors or awe inspiring messengers, Don't dis them. These are the guys that make gravity happen. If the Laws of Physics have enforcers/cops it would be these guys.

Powers
Warrior angels defending the cosmos and humans. They fight evil spirits who attempt to wreak chaos through human beings.

Elohim, fierce warriors. One of the more famous/stereotypical type of angels. They are very good at what they do(Consider that they have been around since the beginning of everything).

Archangels
God's messengers to the people. These are the angels best known by human beings.

OF course, many people view these guys as being the top of the angelic totem pole. IF there is aCouncil of Angelsexpect it to be filled with Archangels.

Principalities
Not sure how these guys fit in. I need to look up more information.

They actually go above archangels.
Specifically they work with Dominions, having sceptres but without the orbs of light at the end. Some of them do work like the muses, although they also inspire inventors/scientists and the like, not just artists.

Specifically the Angelic heirachy often is divided into three spheres
1rst sphere
Thrones
Seraphim
Cherubim.
2nd Sphere
Malakim(Virtures)
Elohim(Powers)
Dominions
3rd Sphere
Principalities
Archangels
Angels
Now, personally I'd yank Archangels and put them in a Council above the hierarchy. In their place would go the Angelsaurs. A mix of Dinosaurs and Pterosaurs that defended Noah's Ark against a rampage of beasts and demons under the command of Lucifer. The rampage occurred after the door to the ark was shut, but before the flood actually started. Though the timeline was eventually altered to have the universe run along more scientific lines the Angelsaurs retained their position.

[slade the sniper]

In their place would go the Angelsaurs. A mix of Dinosaurs and Pterosaurs that defended Noah's Ark against a rampage of beasts and demons under the command of Lucifer. The rampage occurred after the door to the ark was shut, but before the flood actually started. Though the timeline was eventually altered to have the universe run along more scientific lines the Angelsaurs retained their position.

Uh...What??

-STS

[Nightmask]

I've tended to find it something of a discontinuity when a religion as prevalent as Christianity gets treated like it doesn't exist in a game setting set anywhere in modern times or over at least the last 1000 years. I'd welcome some quality effort spent to include these elements as it comes off very odd when the PC are running around seeking ancient babylonian or norse magicks to defend against some monster rather than making use of Christian or Muslem icons.

[Lord Z]

You won't find that happening in any official or semi-official context from Palladium. Kevin has explained this more than once in his interviews, and I think it is a rule that should be added to the submission requirements instead of being the unwritten rule it is now. Kevin has received a lot of criticism in the past for what little treatment that contemporary religions have received in Palladium Books, especially during the 1990s when hyper-sensitivity to political correctness and political incorrections were both trendy. It is just not a fight worth fighting as he sees it. As far as unofficial materials go like creating your own netbook or a thread in this forum, that seems to be fair game.

The exception to this rule seems to be Palladium's take on Hinduism which is felshed out in some detail. Conversion Book 2 came out before the new rule.

The treatment that contemporary religions get in these games is mostly left to the GM using very crude tools. I am thinking of the Rifts Priest from Conversion Book 2 who follows whichever religion but isn't a very good class as it is built. The Catholic Priest OCC appeared way back in Rifter Issue #1, and a Preacher OCC appeared in Rifts: New West. I never recall seeing any material specifically for Islamic Clerics nor Jewish Rabbis, but those classes can be easily adapted, and the Catholic Priest even includes mention of that conversion. As for non-human characters, there are the Efreets who comes from the Koran, but there has been no effort I've seen to bring in a group of creatures (excepting this thread).

I am a Catholic guy myself, but personally I find other mythos (to use the language of this thread) more interesting than the Catholic Celestial Heigharchy. John Smith (of the Mormons), Dante, Milton, and the anonymous Gnostics who wrote the apocraphyl books were all Christians, but they had very, very different viewsof how Creation was orgnaized.

[Lord Z]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I did make a priestly PCC at some point. It's called the Priest of Sin P.C.C., and I based it off of the legend of Rasputin the mad monk. These characters are Christian monks, but you won't find them preaching at any bible belt churches. They are found in the Court of Tarot errata netbook at NexusNine.net.

[Hendrik]

Hi there,

glad that this worthy thread has been resurrected [no pun intended].

Religion is, indeed, a complex, potentially fraud with argument or hurting, but very interesting topic in a game. I agree with that.

I always found it necessary to make religion(s) available in the game. Especially in a modern setting, while not as easy to introduce in the "innocent"-clearly-fictional way as in a fantasy game, ignoring such an important aspect, whether as a societal undercurrent, cultural heritage or ad the focus it can be for so many people, is impossible unless I would choose to risk making my gameworld so much less credible and 3-dimensional. I agree with that, too.

I have no need for a Priest (any creed) OCC - although I think it was very well done! - and you will likely see no angels or biblical (or other hallowed text) beings/entities in my BtS game. 

Rather I find a priest with powers can nicely be reflected by e.g. a Latent Psychic PCC with the "gift from God" persuasion. 

My world is very much like ours. Some people believe in God, some do not. Some are members of church/religion X, some of one of several of the others. There is no compulsive proof for or against religion X being right or wrong.

In my world miracles happen, as part of the supernatural - as in Indian Jones adventures for example (like the ark of the covenant). I leave it intentionally open whether that is powered by or origins from a divinity. I have no restriction to be extra careful in my society about that, but I prefer to leave a "security of such truth" out of the supernatural, find that more mysterious.

Miracles are never, in my gameworld, granted on a prayer - that seems to AD&D / mainstream fantasy to me - or compulsively explained. I leave miracles to be miracles, unexplained and unreliable (in terms of cannot be demanded or repeated at will).

Cheers,
Hendrik

[Hibik]

I am a Catholic guy myself, but personally I find other mythos (to use the language of this thread) more interesting than the Catholic Celestial Heigharchy. John Smith (of the Mormons), Dante, Milton, and the anonymous Gnostics who wrote the apocraphyl books were all Christians, but they had very, very different viewsof how Creation was orgnaized.

Very, very true. The early Christian Church... isn't, in the sense that it wasn't a single church. The Orthodox viewpoint wants you to believe it was a nice simple line from Jesus to Peter to Paul, and that the other interpretations of the word were just fringe groups (The Ebionites, the Marcionites, the Gnostics, etc) that were stomped out. Obviously that isn't true, and many of these groups persisted well into the 4th century. Later in history, you'd also get the Cathars of 12th-13th century France, who incorporated gnosticism and other elements before they were mostly stomped out during the Crusades.

Outside of Europe, you also had Christian movements that picked up a lot of local flavors. For example, Christianity reached India possibly as early as the third century CE, well before de Gama ever set foot there. The version of the faith that de Gama saw was most certainly not Roman Catholic. Likewise, you have that Ethiopian group that to this day claims to still have the Ark of the Covenant. Manicheanism, an Iranian gnostic sect from the 2nd century, made a mini revival of sorts in the 12th century, according to Catholic sources.

It's easy to go on. The point is you could easily spin various groups and societies from surviving remnants of these groups.

I do agree it's easy to interpret 'priests with powers' as clergymen who happen to also be psychic. Some of them might see it as a devil's curse or something and they go to lengths to repent or atone (see that option in BtS2 for Latent Psychics). Of course, with fringe sects like the Cathars or modern Gnostics, maybe they're actually arcanists? A lot of options either way.

[FriarJohn00]

When I have had to put Clergy into a game, other than the generic Fantasy Cleric, I've used either the "Catholic Priest" from one of the Rifts Russia books, or I have used one of the available O/PCCs printed with a tweak or two. The only thing I add are the "blessings" from PFRP (i.e.: food, homes, etc), exorcism, and the prayer for strength. I also toss in the ability to make Holy Water. Now, the problem is that this works pretty well for a Liturgical Church, but many Clergy (Christian or not) don't do that sort of thing on a regular basis. Another little tidbit is that the full on form of making Holy Water (which takes about 10 minuets, maybe less if the priest is quick) includes an exorcism over the water and salt used. The salt prayer can be separately and the salt left over after the making of holy water is often added to bread that is destined for the Eucharist. I've allowed, after a player and I watched a Bond marathon (View to a Kill to be exact), a shot gun loaded with rock salt, with the proper exorcism said over it, to be used against Vampires and the like. It dose the full damage of the gun, and half to incorporeal critters.

[Hibik]

I forget if it is in the Bible or the Jewish holy book (I forget what it is called), but there is also mentioned an "Ancient of Days" which seemed to be treated as an independent entity in the Moses story. As for the types of angels, my best recollection as for what is in the Bible are the Cherubim, Archangels and the "four living creatures" mentioned in Revelations. I think names such as "Seraphim" were added via later texts and essays.

The Torah if you count the first book books (The Books of Moses, as they are sometimes called). The Tanukkh if you mean the entire Hebrew Bible (what the Christians call the Old Testament).

Now, the 'Ancient of Days' comes up three times in Daniel, one of the books of prophecy. His role is effectively as a judge during the reckoning. Effectively, he is a Jewish messiah figure at a time when Jews were being persecuted by Hellenistic rulers (specifically Antiochus IV) that will come down when God has had enough, and decides to do something about it. Daniel 6-12 covers these apocalyptic visions.

This might all sound somewhat familiar to you as this sort of writing (And there is more of it, 4th Ezra, Book of Enoch and several others all have a messianic theme) heavily influenced a certain Paul the Apostle, as well as similar Christian writers. The Messiah in Revelation is described a lot like the Ancient of Days in Daniel. Considering the Jewish origins of early Christians (save Paul), this probably isn't too surprising.

Daniel, as well as Revelations, describe beasts from the sea, usually with horns or some such. These beasts, besides being metaphors for political powers from the time of those writings, could easily be turned into monsters for a BtS game.

Regarding angels, The book of Enoch references 'The Watchers'. Unlike Daniel, which describes God's agents, the Watchers of Enoch are fallen angels, having committed the sin of lusting after the mortals they watched over and creating progeny with them. These progeny, the Nephilim, are described as giants who ravage the earth and endanger humanity, which forced God to flood the earth (but not before warning Noah. I think you all know that story). Now, Genesis and Numbers both describe Nephilim as well. They aren't the giants described in Enoch, but children born of the union of the 'daughters of men' and the 'Sons of God'. That's been interpreted as either descended from nobility, or descendants of Cain depending upon your denomination.

Either way, I'm sure the Nephilim could be worked into someone's plot. They sound pretty scary to me, and I think the footwork of figuring out what they are based upon literature could be an interesting plot.

As for demons, they (along with Satan himself) were cursed to wander the earth formless until the end times. Basically, this means they are spirits of maliciousness and deceit unable to take physical form. However, this does not make them any less dangerous, enabling them to possess people and animals (Legion is a prime example of this) and objects, as well as work other mischief. Satan himself still had power to command miracles when he could take human shape (possess a person).

This reminds me of the Islamic notion of Jinn. Not genies per se, but beings who whisper temptations of sin into mortal ears. They are the ones who encourage lust, greed, avarice, or gluttony in people. Many tenets of traditional Islamic law are there to prevent people from being at risk for temptation, such as men not wandering around with a woman you aren't related or married to. Of course, Islam is not the only religion to describe invisible whispering demons, as described earlier.

In any case, the thing about written source is history never quite gets it right. What people describe as demons and angels could be any number of things that BtS already describes. Not like Nightbane described Guardians as angels, for example. Of course, one could take a metaphorical analysis of scripture. The events described in Daniel, for example, could be not the end of the world, but a process or means of which to deal with a supernatural predator or predators, based upon what knowledge the group already has.