Can an arrow tattoo stake a vamp?

[grandmaster z0b]

A couple of questions about magic tattoos, especially in regards to Undead Slayers.

They all start with either a bow or a crossbow with 4 arrows and those arrows have flames and wings (do MDC, have triple range and magically return).

If they manage to hit the heart of a vampire would the magical arrow count as wood for the purposes of staking and could the Slayer stop it from magically returning to unsure the vamp stays staked?

In both cases I'm thinking yes as Undead Slayers are designed to combat vampires especially.

[Jefffar]

If the arrow depicted on the tatoo has a steel head - it won't stake a vampire.

[Killer Cyborg]

If the arrow depicted on the tatoo has a steel head - it won't stake a vampire.

Agreed.

[The Narrator]

In my humble opinion...

Tattoo arrows with wings "Automatically return to the owner after hitting the target". Thus, once damage is rolled, the arrow in question will return to your T-Man, and not remain staked.

Personally, I play this as a magic arrow which effectively "blinks" back to your grasp. In rare cases, the "blink" may be interrupted, but the arrows, if tattooed with wings, do not remain embedded in your target. (It would be nice to get clarification on the arrow's method of returning though, but Kevin seems to have more important things to do than clarifying missing rules from the books... Maybe the arrows just fling themselves through the air, whipping back towards your T-Man's face, necessitating a dodge. I find nothing in the books to discount the theory.)

Any other arrows, without the wings feature, do not automatically return to your T-Man. Thus, they stay in your target, and therefor staking your vampire.

I'm going to say that the vampire arrows mentioned would have to follow the same ruling, if they have wings, they return, and the vamp is un-staked. You can not tell a winged arrow to "remain in the target if you hit it", the magic is there, it always works, no "ifs", "ands", or "buts". The rules are clear on the point that winged weapons return...

Actually, I guess it doesn't say that they always return no matter what, but I would say that you have no choice.

To a vampire, a winged arrow would be no more than a nuissance at best. A painful nuissance, sure, but nothing more.

[Thinyser]

The ones desigend for vampires do, the others do not. And as was mentioned you best not have wings on the vampire ones or your vamp wont stay staked for long.

[cornholioprime]

Splynn market book has a new tattoo: vampire arrows. It says "Inflicts 2d6 sdc to most creatures and 4d6 hp when used against vampires. Moreover, ther arrow can immobilize a vampire, if struck directly to the heart, as if it were made of real wood"

That implies other tattoo arrows have NOT got this ability.

Agreed.

[Toc Rat]

Having never read the Spylnn market book I was unfamiliar with the new arrow tattoo.

That being said in my games we ruled that since the Undead Slayers were created to fight the undead in general and the vampires in specific, their flaming weapons, as magical MDC creations, could hurt and even destroy vampires. Thus in my games if a undead slayer took the head of a vampire with his flaming sword that vampire was dead...really.

Now what we did for my games has no bearing on your game as it is not cannon but I thought you might like to know what others have done.

[The Narrator]

Oh, I also forgot... I always played it as handling tattoo weapons as real, magical weapons... Magically created "real wood" would be present in the tattoo arrows, thus staking is perfectly valid. Metallic head or not, the vampire still has a 3 foot shaft of wood through it's chest (well, if you are using a long bow).

Also, I figured that wood was the important thing... as long as you have a chunk of wood inside that vampire, it's immobilized, provided that wood touches the vampires body. A wooden stake, if encased in steel, is useless. A steel tipped wooden object, as long as there is exposed wood touching the vampire, is still functional.

[Thinyser]

Oh, I also forgot... I always played it as handling tattoo weapons as real, magical weapons... Magically created "real wood" would be present in the tattoo arrows, thus staking is perfectly valid. Metallic head or not, the vampire still has a 3 foot shaft of wood through it's chest (well, if you are using a long bow).

Also, I figured that wood was the important thing... as long as you have a chunk of wood inside that vampire, it's immobilized, provided that wood touches the vampires body. A wooden stake, if encased in steel, is useless. A steel tipped wooden object, as long as there is exposed wood touching the vampire, is still functional.

Unfortunatly thats not how it works in canon. The wood must be the point of contact not just contacting the vampire somwhere. IIRC the book specifically states that a arrow with no head will work great on vampires but one with a steel (or stone) head will bounce off harmlessly.

[Steve Dubya]

Tip 'em with silver - just enough to help with the weight (and so you could use it against other supernatural beasties too).

On a completely different topic, I am making a plug for this: http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=56768
Do like an election in Chicago - vote early and often...

[The Narrator]

I'll relent on normal wooden stakes, then... a steel tipped stake would be useless. I was distracted from the topic, and went a bit too far. Touche'

But the tattoo weapons are magically created... giving them a supernatural essence, and I count them as "magic" weapons. Mind you, a tattoo SDC dagger does nothing but SDC, and gets no magical bonus to damage or to your strike roll, but they are all magical constructs.

Magical Animals, Magical Monsters, and Magical weapons... Thus, the Undead Slayer is an extraordinaryily effective warrior against the Undead hoardes... he is armed exclusively with magical weapons.

Granted, I can certainly see your points. A Normal Arrow, with a Normal steel point would bounce right off of the vampires flesh. The vampire will be all "j00 lose n00b, zergrush kekekekeke", and you'll be all "u said no zergrush 10 mins", and the vampire will be all "hah, j00 lose. I is teh 3v1l".

Sorry, ignore that blurb there...
A Magical arrow, however, becomes a diferent animal entirely, it's properties for damage are notably changed, it's essence is notably changed, and thus, it's effects on vampires are notably changed.

I'm fairly certain this is kosher with the rules, but if not I'll consider it a houserule... Magical weapons do inflict damage to vampires, almost always. (I can't think of one that doesn't, could be out there somewhere, but I can't think of one off the top of my head).

Okay, a TW Firebolt musket, would be useless. I'll buy that, but that's due to the immunity to fire.

Vampires may be immune to many magical spells, that's fine, but spells such as Lightblade work with particularly devastating effect on vampires, inflicting double damage. I feel that tattoo weapons, being inherently magical, will indeed inflict damage upon the vampires. It fits the whole "Tattooed Warrior vs Vampires" motif quite well, and I believe would be in line with the author's intent.

[Thinyser]

I'll relent on normal wooden stakes, then... a steel tipped stake would be useless. I was distracted from the topic, and went a bit too far. Touche'

But the tattoo weapons are magically created... giving them a supernatural essence, and I count them as "magic" weapons. Mind you, a tattoo SDC dagger does nothing but SDC, and gets no magical bonus to damage or to your strike roll, but they are all magical constructs.

Magical Animals, Magical Monsters, and Magical weapons... Thus, the Undead Slayer is an extraordinaryily effective warrior against the Undead hoardes... he is armed exclusively with magical weapons.

Granted, I can certainly see your points. A Normal Arrow, with a Normal steel point would bounce right off of the vampires flesh. The vampire will be all "j00 lose n00b, zergrush kekekekeke", and you'll be all "u said no zergrush 10 mins", and the vampire will be all "hah, j00 lose. I is teh 3v1l".

Sorry, ignore that blurb there...
A Magical arrow, however, becomes a diferent animal entirely, it's properties for damage are notably changed, it's essence is notably changed, and thus, it's effects on vampires are notably changed.

I'm fairly certain this is kosher with the rules, but if not I'll consider it a houserule... Magical weapons do inflict damage to vampires, almost always. (I can't think of one that doesn't, could be out there somewhere, but I can't think of one off the top of my head).

Okay, a TW Firebolt musket, would be useless. I'll buy that, but that's due to the immunity to fire.

Vampires may be immune to many magical spells, that's fine, but spells such as Lightblade work with particularly devastating effect on vampires, inflicting double damage. I feel that tattoo weapons, being inherently magical, will indeed inflict damage upon the vampires. It fits the whole "Tattooed Warrior vs Vampires" motif quite well, and I believe would be in line with the author's intent.

It depends on two things. First do the weapons follow the pattern of being composed of ectoplasm, and second if they are ectoplasm does ectoplasm harm vampres just because it was magically created?

I tend to think that it would but there is a tattoo NPC that has a "silver dagger" tattoo so maybe the ectoplasm has to be replicating wood (like the special arrows) or silver (like this dagger) inorder to be effective. I can see both sides.
I think a good comprimese would be the SDC weapon tattoos do not harm vampires unless it is a SDC "silver dagger" or "wood stake" tattoo, and these would act just like real silver and wood (able to stake too) for the duration.
Any MDC weapon (weapon in flames) will inflict damage to vamps but cannot stake them.
Animals and mosters will not harm vampires unless they posses SN PS (I think all SN PS should hurt vamps).

[grandmaster z0b]

Thanks for all the info, it seems to me that an Undead Slayer would either start with Vampire Arrows or seek to get them very soon as one of their main missions is to destroy vamps. I'll check out Splynn market for details.

[Thinyser]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

[Marrowlight]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Unless you're a Sunaj undead slayer - then all bets are off as to the acquisition of 'em.

[Thinyser]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Unless you're a Sunaj undead slayer - then all bets are off as to the acquisition of 'em.

The howto on the tattoos would still need to be stolen from the splugies...and Undead Slayers that are sunaj are pretty damn rare IIRC.

[Marrowlight]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Unless you're a Sunaj undead slayer - then all bets are off as to the acquisition of 'em.

The howto on the tattoos would still need to be stolen from the splugies...and Undead Slayers that are sunaj are pretty damn rare IIRC.

I'd have assumed the Sunaj were on a good enough working relationship to just get the bloody things if they wanted them. Especially if going on a Vamp Crushing mission.

[Thinyser]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Unless you're a Sunaj undead slayer - then all bets are off as to the acquisition of 'em.

The howto on the tattoos would still need to be stolen from the splugies...and Undead Slayers that are sunaj are pretty damn rare IIRC.

I'd have assumed the Sunaj were on a good enough working relationship to just get the bloody things if they wanted them. Especially if going on a Vamp Crushing mission.

Well it said right in the book that they don't have them because the splugorth haven't given them the know how.
And also :

Whether they are discovered
stealing this knowledge or not, the Splugorth will definitely
notice if the Sunaj start using Power Arrows. This does not
necessarily mean that the Splugorth will break off their alliance
with the Sunaj, but they will not be pleased.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Unless you're a Sunaj undead slayer - then all bets are off as to the acquisition of 'em.

The howto on the tattoos would still need to be stolen from the splugies...and Undead Slayers that are sunaj are pretty damn rare IIRC.

I'd have assumed the Sunaj were on a good enough working relationship to just get the bloody things if they wanted them. Especially if going on a Vamp Crushing mission.

No, it even said in the book the splurgorth arn't sharing with them.

[Marrowlight]

how.....dumb.

I could see "the Sunaj don't want them because it might implicate their involvement with the Splugorth" but "the Splugorth are just going nener nener nener" just makes me throw my hands up in the air and groan.

[Nekira Sudacne]

how.....dumb.

I could see "the Sunaj don't want them because it might implicate their involvement with the Splugorth" but "the Splugorth are just going nener nener nener" just makes me throw my hands up in the air and groan.

not really. the sunaj can buy all the Tattooed archers they can afford.

[grandmaster z0b]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Yeah that's what I'm planning on doing, allow Undead Slayers to get the Vampire Arrow tattoos, not the entire Tattooed Archer magic. Just seems to be a vital tool for a vampire hunter.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Yeah that's what I'm planning on doing, allow Undead Slayers to get the Vampire Arrow tattoos, not the entire Tattooed Archer magic. Just seems to be a vital tool for a vampire hunter.

Yeah I add the constrain undead power tattoo to undead slayers as an additional tattoo as I think it would be one that they would definately have had, were the tattoo around when the 1st Atlantis book was written and one extra tattoo doesn't make much difference in the power level considering the specific nature of the tattoo

[grandmaster z0b]

Ah...I believe the undead slayers are made by the True Atlanteans themselves not by the splugorth. The vampire arrows are only for T-archers (made only by the splugorth). Therefore Undead slayers don't have access to (unless they are splugorth slaves) any of the power arrow tattoos.

Just so we are clear that what you just said was house rules.

Yeah that's what I'm planning on doing, allow Undead Slayers to get the Vampire Arrow tattoos, not the entire Tattooed Archer magic. Just seems to be a vital tool for a vampire hunter.

Yeah I add the constrain undead power tattoo to undead slayers as an additional tattoo as I think it would be one that they would definately have had, were the tattoo around when the 1st Atlantis book was written and one extra tattoo doesn't make much difference in the power level considering the specific nature of the tattoo

I could almost imagine it being in the updated version of Atlantis.

[Jefffar]

The arrowhead argument: No. Magic is magic. Whatever shape it takes, it damages vampires as magic, not as specific material

I didn't say a steel arrowhead wouldn't damage the vamp - I jsut said it wouldn't count as a wooden or silver weapon and thus is incapable of staking them.