Was Holmes' stunt possible?

[Nxla666]

I stopped reading on the second page so if this has already been covered, I don't care.

Holmes Miracle March was not impossible...

1: The millions of Xiticix are split between 6 separate and distinct (and constantly warring) Hives.

2: Holmes was one of the leading CS experts on the Xits so him knowing and using anti-Xit tactics is not unlikely.

3: The CS column marched away from the Duluth Hive (the closest) and stopped in the region that is not claimed by any of the Hives.

4: Yes the CS forces did take over farms and use them to feed the troops.


Was it impossible no, unlikely... HELL YES.

Which is why practically everyone has changed it.


As for Lazlo taking on the Xits, why was their a question about it?

[tenakafurey]

I have a question;

If Holmes' decided to march on the Hive and attack, how long would have the Xiticix lewft him alone? I mean he's trying something that's never been done before (we must have heard that 100 times on this thread) if you maintain that the Xiticix wouldn't have attacked by instinct, then how long would have that tactic worked before the bugs did attack.

Given they did attack almost immediately - not long.

The Xiticix behaviour in SoT seems strange from both the perspective of real animals (especially insect hive mentality) and also the behaviour written in WB:23.

Given that WB23 states that the Xiticix tend not to attack until they need to, that they often let settlements remain for months without swarming and killing everything, that they are often content with simply driving an invader away and that Jerichos actions can be said to show he was neither a threat or was challenging the Duluth hive, and were defensive in nature I'd say the Xiticixs actions can be said to be consistent in both SoT and WB23.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

I have a question;

If Holmes' decided to march on the Hive and attack, how long would have the Xiticix lewft him alone? I mean he's trying something that's never been done before (we must have heard that 100 times on this thread) if you maintain that the Xiticix wouldn't have attacked by instinct, then how long would have that tactic worked before the bugs did attack.

Given they did attack almost immediately - not long.

Ok then the same logic should apply to Holmes' stunt, it wouldn't take long to attack.

The Xiticix behaviour in SoT seems strange from both the perspective of real animals (especially insect hive mentality) and also the behaviour written in WB:23.

Given that WB23 states that the Xiticix tend not to attack until they need to, that they often let settlements remain for months without swarming and killing everything, that they are often content with simply driving an invader away and that Jerichos actions can be said to show he was neither a threat or was challenging the Duluth hive, and were defensive in nature I'd say the Xiticixs actions can be said to be consistent in both SoT and WB23.

EJL

Where does WB:23 say that? From what I remember it says they see all large animals in their territory as intruders that are attacked if they are in large groups.

[cornholioprime]

Why Holmes's plan simply couldn't have worked

I dunno. I've read XI and SoT, and I'm not convinced it's as far out there as many suggest.

What are the main issues?

1: XI tells us the repsonse to an incursion by a large force. They get swarmed by 2-1 odds or more.

So, Jerichos army should have been swarmed under and defeated.

Seems reasonable enough but....


We are told he tried something no one else had tried....moving into Hive territory with a huge force. What resulted....the Xiticix swarmed, and attacked. So far, so good....

However, the General ordered a non offensive posture. Smoke was used to irrtate and drive the Xiticix away. Troops were told to refrain from fire and merely to jab and poke the attackers. SAMAS was grounded. The convoy moved at 10 mph. And so on.

The end result? After 72 hours,the Xiticix just gave up.

Is this a paradox?

p.10, XI....."The Xiticix are incredibly organized and methodical, consequently, they do not wage war and kill until they need to."

"Typically, a settlement will see warning signs for 1D4+2 months"

"(the Xiticix are usually content for a competing force to move away),"

"attacks a Xiticix without provocation"

However, it also states..."Large groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors...."

Put it together.....

The Xiticix will attack if they need to. Jerichos forces invaded....so they did. Buit Jericho maintained a strictly defensive posture. He did not initiate attacks and while it's very likely troops did fire on the Xiticix, the fact is these would have been provoked by Xiticix attacks on them. Moreso, the General moved his army away from the hive.

In short...the hive attacked as it should have, but when they were convinced he wasn't a threat to them, they realised they did not need to kill to drive him away. He was leaving anyway. His force was unique in that it was large enough and passive enough to survive long enough for that to occur.

So...the Xiticix behaviour, to me, seems perfectly in line with what is written in WB23:XI.

There are some other difficulties...logistics for one, mind probes for another that remain. One could posit that CS technology is good enough to recycle water, or that they brought a large amount of food with them or that large numbers of hunting parties provided enough food to keep the army mobile, or that they were in Xiticix territory for only a fraction of the time they were missing, but there does seem to be a little gap there.

EJL

Even if we all did accept that Line of reasoning, one glaring incosistency still stands out:

Holmes's men dying to the tune of 92,000 Casualties, and no one firing off even a single, killing shot....all on the orders of one General.

In the "real world," after the first 5-10,000 men dropping dead with no relief in sight, there would've been a Coup d'Tat, the Men would've fought back like REAL Men do, the Death Chemical would have been released from the Xiticix' bodies, and there would have been no "death from the North" to speak of.

[tenakafurey]

Ok then the same logic should apply to Holmes' stunt, it wouldn't take long to attack.

They didn't. They attacked Holmes almost immediately.

What Holmes did, however, was act to show his troops were not a threat to Duluth. That took 72 hours of combat.

At that point...

1: They were moving away from the Hive.
2: They had not provoked the Hive by attacking.
3: There was no need to kill Holmes and his men.

And so, the attack "stopped".

Where does WB:23 say that? From what I remember it says they see all large animals in their territory as intruders that are attacked if they are in large groups.

Page 10-11. As I said, Jerichos forces were large enough to survive long enough and, by not attacking first, did not provoke the Hive. All spelled out there.

WB23 also states the hive will attack any large force...and it did. But it also states they don't kill/attack unless they need to, or are attacked unprovoked. Jerichos forces did neither. Even if a warrior under attack fired back, he would be reacting to a Xiticix attack. That's different from attacking a Xiticix without cause.

While the incident still retains some degree of authors fiat in it, I'm not seeing much inconsistency wrt the Xiticix response.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

Even if we all did accept that Line of reasoning, one glaring incosistency still stands out:

Holmes's men dying to the tune of 92,000 Casualties, and no one firing off even a single, killing shot....all on the orders of one General.

In the "real world," after the first 5-10,000 men dropping dead with no relief in sight, there would've been a Coup d'Tat, the Men would've fought back like REAL Men do, the Death Chemical would have been released from the Xiticix' bodies, and there would have been no "death from the North" to speak of.

Supposition. WB23 tells us the Xiticix are provoked by violence against them. If the CS fired back in defence agaisnt Xiticix aggression, that would seem to be diferent.

In effect...Jerichos strategy was simple. Convince the Duluth hive that he was neither a threat to them, nor a challenger.

You are correct in that it is unreasonable to expect that noone opened fire. But, with his men reacting only to a Xiticix attack, fighting back in defence, would confirm that.

Why would this be possible? P10, WB23....attacking a Xiticix warrior unprovoked is "making trouble". Conversely, in a one on one challenge, if you defeat the warrior, the rest of the patrol leaves you alone.

Now, this would release the death scent....but this would be wasted. The Hive knows Jericho is there, and they're already fighting. It does not provoke the Hive into a berserker rage where it attack anything and everyone. The fact that a lone person can potentially defeat a warrior and be left unmolested is proof. The death chemical is just an alarm.

Now...would his men turn on him? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they just had that much faith in him. Maybe they realised he was the only one with a plan. Maybe, too busy keeping an eye out for Xiticix, and fighting them off, they just never got a chance.

EJL

[cornholioprime]

Ok then the same logic should apply to Holmes' stunt, it wouldn't take long to attack.

They didn't. They attacked Holmes almost immediately.

What Holmes did, however, was act to show his troops were not a threat to Duluth. That took 72 hours of combat.

At that point...

1: They were moving away from the Hive.
2: They had not provoked the Hive by attacking.
3: There was no need to kill Holmes and his men.

And so, the attack "stopped".

Where does WB:23 say that? From what I remember it says they see all large animals in their territory as intruders that are attacked if they are in large groups.

Page 10-11. As I said, Jerichos forces were large enough to survive long enough and, by not attacking first, did not provoke the Hive. All spelled out there.

WB23 also states the hive will attack any large force...and it did. But it also states they don't kill/attack unless they need to, or are attacked unprovoked. Jerichos forces did neither. Even if a warrior under attack fired back, he would be reacting to a Xiticix attack. That's different from attacking a Xiticix without cause.

While the incident still retains some degree of authors fiat in it, I'm not seeing much inconsistency wrt the Xiticix response.

EJL

Negative. It says that SMALL FORCES that don't strike out at the Xs are eventually left alone. Large Forces elicit a Swarm Response that seeks to maintain a 2-1 advantage. Rifts: Xiticix Invasion, Page 11

Furthermore, on page 10, God Himself (Kevin) tells you that even Settlements are killed to the last Man, Woman, and Child.
Even if they try to run at that point.
Even though they don't pose any threat at all.
If they do this to unarmed people who just happened to be living in Territory that the Xs now see as their own (and who don't heed the Xs' "warnings"), then what do you think would happen to a 500,000 strong Army of Men, Armored Vehicles and Robots, marching onto Xiticix land!?

Clearly, you are looking at quite a different species of Xiticix than the rest of us are.....

[grandmaster z0b]

Now, this would release the death scent....but this would be wasted. The Hive knows Jericho is there, and they're already fighting. It does not provoke the Hive into a berserker rage where it attack anything and everyone. The fact that a lone person can potentially defeat a warrior and be left unmolested is proof. The death chemical is just an alarm.

Individual Xiticix aren't really capable of making the decision to ignore the death scent- they are very simple animlas which do go into an attacking mode when they smell it.

How this works with the one on one warrior scenario is a bit of a mystery - yet another palladium contradiction.

However the one-on-one challenge mode seems to only work for small groups (funnily enough player group size), not massive, loud, destructive armies.

[cornholioprime]

Y'know...this I had to just comment on.

SSGT Thomas: "Oh my god! The bugs just took SSGT Morgan! Open fire!"
SSGT Morgan: "Don't shoot! Let the bugs kill you! Don't listen to your survival instinct...just trust in Hoooooooolmes!"

*An unforgivably silly "Trust in Holmes" song and dance number spreads throughout the entire army group in a matter of seconds. It lasts for several minutes, and the Xiticix join in about halfway through but continue to slaughter CS troops throughout.*

Hooooooooolmes!!!!!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

wow 7 pages,with" i'm not going even try to meet you half way but you have to meet me on my terms only" types
i offer maybe how it could be done, its seems like some out there dont like it,
owell
but its canon and unless KS changes it, its the law of the land

[Mech-Viper Prime]

wow 7 pages, i not going even try to meet you half way but you have to meet me on my terms only

but its canon and unless KS changes it, its the law of the land

We've never argued it wasn't canon (except in our own personal games). We've been arguing that it flies in the face of everything that's written before it and the only reason it happened was the great power of the Hand of God.

like i stated time and time again, i think it was more for drama and story then anything esle. holmes and troops thought dead in xiticix hiveland, show up at the right time and strikes a blow at tolkeen at the worse time for tolkeen, and causes tolkeen to be defeated. end of story

[RainOfSteel]

Perhaps pressure from Lazlo made them not want to instigate a "second front" (they ARE intelligent, if very alien). Did Holmes discover a new, exploitable secret about 'Tix behaviour? Did some other force interfere on his behalf? Answer that question and you may find you have a Rifter article or more.

Will a magic pill appear? Will we swallow it? Will we want to?

It was a bad plot concept, pure and simple. Written solely for the "and out of the bushes springs the hero to save the day!" part of the story.

One magic pill created to justify another, and both as difficult to swallow as Klingon gahck.

[RainOfSteel]

Man! After 2 days this argument is still going on?!

I can see you've never studied the infamous teleport topic.

[RainOfSteel]

SOT3 107 SOT5 110 SOT 6 13 and WB 23 page85-88, number that attacked holmes, his troops was listed at over 400,000

SoT 3 p.107 says that 180k-250k Xiticix were seen to "take wing" over Holme's forces, and were attacking anything within 100 kilometers in a "frenzy". Undoubtedly, the Duluth hive possessed far more forces, and a great many of them were undoubtedly rushing over the ground. WB23:XI p.85 states that the CS estimates that there are 3-4 million Xiticix (with Lazlo estimating 1.6-2 million) in PA 105. It also states that within two years there will be 10-12 million. Two years later is PA 107. Holmes goes through in what, PA 108? Duluth is the largest of the hives, it will certainly have 1.5-2 million by PA 108 (if not a great many more). The 180k-250K are what goes into action relatively quickly. (Other posters also covered some of this.)

SoT 5 p.110 conflicts with WB23:XI p.8 col.2 and p.17 col.1-2.

Smoke? Jabs? Really? The Xiticix would have rained down TK bolts on them from afar. They always engage in the most effective tactics to defeat the enemy.

Losing 25% of your force is devastating. Even if, somehow, the CS force managed to do no shooting in the beginning, this would not have held for long with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of troopers being carried away. Someone, somewhere, would have fired. Once the firing began, the Xiticix would have descended with renewed vigour, and the CS force would have unleashed its full firepower.

[RainOfSteel]

Wow, I am so late to this discussion.

Needless to say, some of what I have covered been has been covered before. Sometimes I have provided references to prior points, and sometimes I have not.

But I still feel I have to summarize my opinions.


Problems:

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Force Size:

It is a fantasy that Jericho Holmes could have had the 400,000 combat field troops he is noted as having.

I've already gone over the demographics of the impossibility pretty extensively here.

Even the whole CS military couldn't have had that many.

This simple problem absolutely blows any possibility of the suspension of disbelief out the window for me (for both Holmes' "maneuver" and for the whole SoT).

---------------------------------------------------

Supply:

Samored II pointed out the water needs, but did not total up the food needs. Perhaps it was because that the water needs alone cripple the force in question.

Something like 3000 calories and two gallons of potable water per man per day. That's two million gallons of water just to get out of the initial 72 hours of heavy combat. Assuming the Bugs didn't hit the tanker trucks and no evaporation loss or spillage. Jerico might be a millitary genius but unless he could conjure up 16 million pounds of H2O, his men die of dehydration before the Swarm ever pulls back, or they die slowly hiking across the Hivelands because you can't scrounge food and water for 400,000 people while keeping in close formation and not pissing off the Xiticix.

However, the Hivelands are a near waste. There is little food to gather or hunt for (rodents and birds), and as little water, so living off the land simply isn't going to work.

Because Holmes's has already been in a lengthy battle with Tolkeen's forces, his force will have been using up their supplies at a tremendous rate before they got anywhere near the Duluth hive.

Also, 400,000 people cannot live "off the land", even a bountiful one. It's impossible. No, really. They can't. Napoleon found it to be impossible and there is a great story linked to his need to feed his huge armies and the development of bottling that then leads to canned foods.

Cannibalism would not have helped, as that does not provide enough water.

Even a much smaller force would have faced exactly the same problems.

---------------------------------------------------

Mobility/Cohesion:

Massed fields of destroyed bots and APCs would make terrain navigation for a coherent force impossible. The force would have to divert to avoid wrecks up and down the lines. As they diverted, more wrecks would be incurred, further adding to the difficultly of travel. There would be no single column moving through the Hivelands. It would be multiple disparate groups before long.

---------------------------------------------------

Air-Transport:

What happened to the Death's Heads and Firestorms?

The Dragon Kings happened to them.

There is even a piece of artwork to this effect.

Also, any that survived Tolkeen's push toward the north would have run straight into swarms of airborne Xiticix.

As others have pointed out, the whole force was written off as destroyed. There would have been no one in the CS who would have sent any air transports north to a force that didn't exist anymore in their minds.

---------------------------------------------------

Battle:

The Xiticix are relentless.

They do not negotiate.

They do not give up (they will not "back off"). The battle would not end until J.H.'s forces were dead, reduced to tiny groups widely separated enough to be regarded as independent and non-threatening (as in at least a .5 to 1 mile apart each), or if the Xiticix themselves were wiped out.

el magico -- also noted this here.

While Xiticix hive complexes will battle each other over territory (if there is none to expand into), the one thing that will always unite them is an attack from outside.

All the hives would have cooperated in the defense of the Duluth hive.

So, even if the Duluth hive's many hundreds of thousands were insufficient to the task, many hundreds of thousands more would have descended upon them.

---------------------------------------------------

Xiticix Tactics:

The Xiticix would had three groups. Ground forces assigned to rush. Air forces assigned to rush. Air forces carrying ranged weaponry (TK Rifles) to stand off and pick-off stragglers.

---------------------------------------------------

Shooting/Not-Shooting:

It simply wouldn't matter.

The Xiticix would attack for the sole reason of the size of the force and their insane territoriality, and they would go right on attacking until the enemy was gone.

WB23 and SoT 5 stand in direct contradiction to each other on this matter.

---------------------------------------------------

Queens Relenting/Acting "Smart":

If the Queens are smart enough to see a reason to call off the attack, then they are also smart enough to realize that the force is from the nation that has been sending Xiticix killers into their hives.

The CS force is about to go out of supply, it is not dug in, the only thing fresh about it is that it has just extricated itself from a lengthy running battle, it may well be easily demoralized, and in many ways this would represent the best possible moment to wipe them out (lest they come back later to hurt the hive in the future).

I would further add that the Queens would be smart enough to realize that Tolkeen had caused this interference in the first place, and they would have headed off in that direction right after disposing of Jericho Holmes' force.

If the queens were going to be smart, they wouldn't have launched an airborne army of approximately 200K just in the opening hours. They would have assessed the situation carefully, and then if they weren't going to attack, they wouldn't have done it at all.

Except they did. That's canon, too.

Smart enough to call off an attack, but not smart enough not to launch one in the first place if you just planned on quitting later? I don't think so.

Actually, though, given WB23:XI p.8, the intelligence of Xiticix is very much that of the insect wrapped up with instinct.

The instinct of the Queens, built upon millions of years of evolution, would have been to attack.

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Dead Horse:

If some people wish to discuss this subject, they will. Those who do not feel like discussing this subject (or reading it) are not required to do so.

But coming in, reading about it, and then complaining over the discussion's existence when reading it wasn't necessary . . . what?

In any event, we have had a huge influx of new people here lately. Perhaps they have not seen this discussion before.

[tenakafurey]

Negative. It says that SMALL FORCES that don't strike out at the Xs are eventually left alone. Large Forces elicit a Swarm Response that seeks to maintain a 2-1 advantage. Rifts: Xiticix Invasion, Page 11

Which is the point.

Holmes force did illicit a swarm response. It’s also the first to survive long enough to take advantage of the “being left alone” response.

As it is, we are told Xiticix don’t kill without need. And that they’re often satisfied with driving invaders away. We’re told they also attack invaders and those who challenge them….

With Holmes, he was moving away from the hive. He wasn’t challenging the hive. He wasn’t threatening them. His forces were to refrain from attacking and provoking the Xiticix and he engaged in passive defence.

Now, does his escape contradict WB23? No, it doesn’t. Why not?

Because WB23 does not address the situation if a large force does not engage the hive, does not provoke its warriors, does not stop, does nothing to challenge or threaten the Xiticix, engages in acts of self-defence only, and continues to move away from the hive and yet survives several days.

What it does say is that a large force will be engaged by a swarm response. This happened. It does not say what happens if the invaders survive.

Indeed, throughout WB23, we see that the Xiticix ignore those who they see as no danger. Small parties are seen as no danger. Existing settlements are not seen as a danger until they refuse to leave. Those who only defend themselves against attack are seen as no danger. Those who do not challenge or threaten the hive or its territory by stopping or making camp are seen as no danger.

All of this is encapsulated on p.10: “The Xiticix are incredibly organized and methodical, consequently, they do not wage war and kill until they need to. This need arises …when the insectoids feel threatened.”

Holmes strategy took advantage of this part of the Xiticix nature. He made his forces look like no danger to the hive. The response – the Xiticix withdrawal – is consistent with their response to other areas where no danger is seen and WB23s assertion that the Xiticix are content with driving the invaders away from the hive, and that they do not kill without need.

So, yes. It does say small forces are left alone. It does say large forces are attacked. But it does not say what happens when a large force proves itself neither a threat nor a challenge. Or what happens if a small force isn’t driven off, but likewise isn’t a threat.

SoT5 gave us that answer. Holmes did something not done before, but the Xiticix response is consistent. They don’t attack “just because”. They attack because they have a reason…the enemy is a threat, a challenge. Holmes restraint showed him as being neither. And so he was left alone.

Furthermore, on page 10, God Himself (Kevin) tells you that even Settlements are killed to the last Man, Woman, and Child.
Even if they try to run at that point.
Even though they don't pose any threat at all.

After months of escalating harrassment. The Xiticix want to drive them out. If they stay, then the swarm happens. Why? Because they’re encroaching on Xiticix territory – territory which the Xiticix now see as theirs. It was their territory…they’ve lost it. They’re given time to get out. You see the same thing when Tolkeen fell….the land was safe because it was claimed by Tolkeen and Duluth recognised that. Now that Tolkeen has fallen, the Xiticix are moving in.

The same response is why even small parties can’t stop for more than few minutes or set up camp.

Holmes didn’t trigger that response by the simple expedient of not stopping.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

wow 7 pages,with" i'm not going even try to meet you half way but you have to meet me on my terms only" types
i offer maybe how it could be done, its seems like some out there dont like it,
owell
but its canon and unless KS changes it, its the law of the land

Actually I tried to meet you half way at least twice this thread and each time we never get any where. If you really want to discuss a realistic strategy for Holmes then let's do it, but I find we get diverted back to the original argument of whether it was realistic at all or not.

[RainOfSteel]

Now, does his escape contradict WB23? No, it doesn’t. Why not?

WB23 makes it clear that after any attack is over they are agitated and in a heightened state of alert for many days.

In the case of major attacks, raiding swarms are a near certainty. These swarms are sent to "get revenge" and protect the future of the hive by getting rid of the source of the most recent problem. In other words, the Xiticix aren't the sort to "leave things alone".

They do not give up, they do not relent.

[tenakafurey]

Individual Xiticix aren't really capable of making the decision to ignore the death scent- they are very simple animlas which do go into an attacking mode when they smell it.

According to the WB23, the death scent tells the Xiticix that one of them has died. It signals danger and summons troops to investigate. Warriors and other combatants will prepare for combat.

All of this is useless when there are already tens of thousands of Xiticix already present. The death scent is released, but there is no need to summon warriors and no need for an alarm.

How this works with the one on one warrior scenario is a bit of a mystery - yet another palladium contradiction.

Not really. The death scent would still be released, but it doesn't drive the Xiticix into a killer frenzy. It's just an alarm.

However the one-on-one challenge mode seems to only work for small groups (funnily enough player group size), not massive, loud, destructive armies.

Given the sporadic attacks on Holmes troops after he showed he wasn't a threat, that's not necessarily true.

EJL

[RainOfSteel]

Holme's most realistic strategy would have been to send a force of 10-20,000 straight into the Hivelands and toward the hive to stir up as much trouble as possible, while his main force used the cover of widespread Xiticix aerial activity to escape by skirting the edge of the Hivelands to the west. Combined with aggressive scouting to weed out as many of Tolkeen's observers as possible.

Hmm, if a large component of the 10-20k that went into the hivelands retreated straight south to draw major Xiticix raiding swarms right back into Tolkeen's forces, Tolkeen's forces might be a little pre-occupied trying to get out of the Xiticix' way themselves.

-------------------------

There. Ok, it isn't the most realistic thing he could have done, and it's actually kind of half-baked as military strategy, but it's better than losing 25% of your force to "don't do anything".

[Killer Cyborg]

First off, Tenakafurey, I would like to congratulate you on your logical defense of the canon in SoT. It is the best argument that has been presented for your side.

Second, I'm going to pick at that argument a bit.

As it is, we are told Xiticix don’t kill without need. And that they’re often satisfied with driving invaders away.

I noticed that too. The passage continues by describing what constitutes a "need" for the xiticix to kill.
XI, p. 10
"This need arises either when the HIve Network has grown to come to close to a rival habitation... or when the insectoids feel threatened... Likewise, these aliens see any non-xiticix group larger than eight (humans or animals) or which has created a disturbance...as an intruder to be destroyed."

An army that large would make the bugs feel threatened, of course. You could argue that once the bugs felt no longer threatened that they would rethink things and cease massive attacks, but Holmes' group would still undeniably remain "a non-xiticix group larger than eight."

And it doesn't seem that lack of resistance or attempts to flee would matter either. Remember, these bugs slaughter cattle and other livestock because the animals "are percieved by the Xiticix as an intruding gathering of unwanted life forms."

We’re told they also attack invaders and those who challenge them….

With Holmes, he was moving away from the hive. He wasn’t challenging the hive. He wasn’t threatening them. His forces were to refrain from attacking and provoking the Xiticix and he engaged in passive defence.

As has been addressed, it is unthinkable that all of Holmes' troops would follow the orders for pacifism. I agree with your assessment that those challenged could fight back against, and even kill the attacking xiticix, but if any other soldier jumped in and tried to help out by attacking the xiticix, then "it will become a free-for-all" battle.

Now, does his escape contradict WB23? No, it doesn’t. Why not?

Because WB23 does not address the situation if a large force does not engage the hive, does not provoke its warriors, does not stop, does nothing to challenge or threaten the Xiticix, engages in acts of self-defence only, and continues to move away from the hive and yet survives several days.

Actually, it does address it. It says that any group larger than 8 will be seen as an unwanted group of intruders and attacked and killed.
Even cattle.

Sure, it doesn't specifically address the circumstances of such a large army moving through and (implausibly or not) not fighting back, but it doesn't need to. It also doesn't address a lone individual in a clown outfit who responds by throwing hummus at the bugs. Or specifically address a marching band traveling through their territory, wearing large hats that say "don't shoot us!".
But it doesn't need to.
Because each of these scenarios falls into one of the categories that are addressed in the book. Groups larger than 20, groups smaller than 20, groups smaller than 8, etc.

[Nxla666]

While Xiticix hive complexes will battle each other over territory (if there is none to expand into), the one thing that will always unite them is an attack from outside.

All the hives would have cooperated in the defense of the Duluth hive.

So, even if the Duluth hive's many hundreds of thousands were insufficient to the task, many hundreds of thousands more would have descended upon them.



Holme's most realistic strategy would have been to send a force of 10-20,000 straight into the Hivelands and toward the hive to stir up as much trouble as possible, while his main force used the cover of widespread Xiticix aerial activity to escape by skirting the edge of the Hivelands to the west. Combined with aggressive scouting to weed out as many of Tolkeen's observers as possible.

Hmm, if a large component of the 10-20k that went into the hivelands retreated straight south to draw major Xiticix raiding swarms right back into Tolkeen's forces, Tolkeen's forces might be a little pre-occupied trying to get out of the Xiticix' way themselves.

-------------------------

There. Ok, it isn't the most realistic thing he could have done, and it's actually kind of half-baked as military strategy, but it's better than losing 25% of your force to "don't do anything".

I would like a page number where it says Xiticix of different hives rally to the defense of others please.


As for the diversion force, thats what I use. A 100,000 skelebots marching on Duluth stopping for nothing is sure to draw away most of the attacking force.

[grandmaster z0b]

Holme's most realistic strategy would have been to send a force of 10-20,000 straight into the Hivelands and toward the hive to stir up as much trouble as possible, while his main force used the cover of widespread Xiticix aerial activity to escape by skirting the edge of the Hivelands to the west. Combined with aggressive scouting to weed out as many of Tolkeen's observers as possible.

Hmm, if a large component of the 10-20k that went into the hivelands retreated straight south to draw major Xiticix raiding swarms right back into Tolkeen's forces, Tolkeen's forces might be a little pre-occupied trying to get out of the Xiticix' way themselves.

-------------------------

There. Ok, it isn't the most realistic thing he could have done, and it's actually kind of half-baked as military strategy, but it's better than losing 25% of your force to "don't do anything".

Another idea is to send as many automated troops as possible on this mission to distract the hive. I'm not sure of his armies makeup but I think he would have had a few thousand skelebots, they could have been sent north-west as a diversionary tactic. If it was possible to send any giant robots with them on automatic, or driven by skelebots, all the better. He should have immediately split his forces into as many smaller groups as possible to avoid undue attention. Of these smaller groups some should have been sent to light forrest fires that would act as a literal smoke screen. As the Xiticix predominately rely on smell this could actually blind them to exact numbers.
They would swarm but it would be focused on the diversionary group, which would continue north while getting blasted, drawing the swarm away . In the mean time the rest of his forces treck through the wilderness in small groups, half of these small groups lighting fires then retreating south. Once the swarm has defeated the large diversionary force they feel they have succeeded and go back to the hive. By that time the rest of the forces have split up and are marching away.
The Xiticix send out more groups to investigate the south but as they are smaller groups they act as they should do in WB:23 and only attack those that are viewed as a threat. Holmes still looses thousands of troops this way but at least it's realistic. The Xiticix that do follow them are then caught in the midst of the Tolkeen conflict and die or retreat.

[tenakafurey]

WB23 makes it clear that after any attack is over they are agitated and in a heightened state of alert for many days.

Which was the case.

In the case of major attacks, raiding swarms are a near certainty.

Which happened.

These swarms are sent to "get revenge" and protect the future of the hive by getting rid of the source of the most recent problem. In other words, the Xiticix aren't the sort to "leave things alone".

And they got rid of it. Holmes left.

They do not give up, they do not relent.

And they made sure Holmes left the territory. And while they do not give up or relent, that only applies to units that are in combat. A small group that encounters a patrol may face one Xiticix warrior in combat. If he loses, the rest of the patrol leaves. With larger groups, the Xiticix may follow in quite large numbers, of which only a few may be attacking at any one time; if the party leaves Xiticix territory, those Xiticix not engaged in combat leave.

In short, they don't give up, they don't relent...but they don't attack anything and everything that moves either. Nor do they do so en masse....especially if you play by their rules They're more methodical than that.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

First off, Tenakafurey, I would like to congratulate you on your logical defense of the canon in SoT. It is the best argument that has been presented for your side.

Thank you.

Second, I'm going to pick at that argument a bit.

Be my guest.

An army that large would make the bugs feel threatened, of course. You could argue that once the bugs felt no longer threatened that they would rethink things and cease massive attacks, but Holmes' group would still undeniably remain "a non-xiticix group larger than eight."

Yes, it would. But massive attacks? He lasted 72 hours. There might have been hundreds of thousands of warriors there, but it seems likely that the attacks were *relatively* sporadic….as is described, only a few Xiticix likely attacked at a time. Had they all attacked at once…well, assuming the game battle system as being representative of the universe, there wouldn’t have been a lot left of Holmes after a few melees.

As it is…yes. Holmes would have been a force larger than 8. The question is….what happens if the large group acts in such a way that the Xiticix become convinced they aren’t invaders? Or a threat? Or there to challenge?

Holmes maintained a defensive stance. He did nothing to draw attention, or to provoke the Xiticix. So long as his troops did not commit a hostile act, they would not be creating a disturbance. And would hence be safe because in doing so, they showed they weren’t a threat.

Thus, the conditions in WB23 are met.

And it doesn't seem that lack of resistance or attempts to flee would matter either. Remember, these bugs slaughter cattle and other livestock because the animals "are percieved by the Xiticix as an intruding gathering of unwanted life forms."

Cattle and livestock often stop for a few minutes. Even small parties can’t do that without being attacked. It seems equivalent to them saying …”This is my land”…and thus a challenge. The same is seen with settlements that the Xiticix territory gobble sup…they’re given months to get out with only increasing harrassment to motivate them. The Xiticix do not swarm, but give them time to leave.

As has been addressed, it is unthinkable that all of Holmes' troops would follow the orders for pacifism. I agree with your assessment that those challenged could fight back against, and even kill the attacking xiticix, but if any other soldier jumped in and tried to help out by attacking the xiticix, then "it will become a free-for-all" battle.

Yes. Which still leaves some possibilities. This is 109 PA. 4 years after WB23. The lone challenge was known about then. It wouldn’t take long for Holmes to spread the word. This raises the possibility that noone did leap in, being restrained by others if necessary.

One other is that by packing the troops together so tightly, Holmes made it impossible for any Xiticix to attack just one trooper. Thus, allowing several to attack any one Xiticix without triggering a swarm response.

There are a couple of other possibilities, but these two seem most likely.

As it is, Holmes took advantage of something that WB23 does show repeatedly….the Xiticix do not attack those they do not see as a threat.

EJL

[cornholioprime]

Man! After 2 days this argument is still going on?!

I can see you've never studied the infamous teleport topic.

Indeed.

He probably doesn't even know that the Thread that you dug up (2250 posts) is just the Sequel to the Original Thread that had 5 times as many Posts!!!.......

[tenakafurey]

This is one of my major hang ups with the encounter. How did they survive? How did any vehicles survive even a few hours of combat without returning fire?

I'd guess they did return fire. But by firing defensively, or not at all, they did not challenge or threaten the Xiticix.

How long would a robot or APC last against 8-10 Xiticix warriors swarming upon it with nothing to stop them? I wish there were more details over what was in the group and what exactly survived.

Probably not long. But a lot of people have this idea that there was a massed assault, with hundreds of thousands of Xiticix attacking at once, en masse. I'd argue that the attacks were far more sporadic....perhaps 10-50 soldiers under attack at any one time. That would explain why so many survived, why they were in relatively good shape when they got out and would fit in with the pattern we see in WGB23 where not every warrior attacks a party, but some/a lot hang back until the attacking group is deated.

EJL

[Killer Cyborg]

An army that large would make the bugs feel threatened, of course. You could argue that once the bugs felt no longer threatened that they would rethink things and cease massive attacks, but Holmes' group would still undeniably remain "a non-xiticix group larger than eight."

Yes, it would. But massive attacks?

Yes.
"Larger groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

He lasted 72 hours.

Were they all in vehicles, or were some of these soldiers walking for 72 hours straight?
And eating and drinking while they walked?
And gathering the food and water while on the move?

There might have been hundreds of thousands of warriors there, but it seems likely that the attacks were *relatively* sporadic….as is described, only a few Xiticix likely attacked at a time. Had they all attacked at once…well, assuming the game battle system as being representative of the universe, there wouldn’t have been a lot left of Holmes after a few melees.

Nothing about the description of the typical xiticix response indicates anything other than a large-scale attack. 2:1 ratio, all attacking.

As has been addressed, it is unthinkable that all of Holmes' troops would follow the orders for pacifism. I agree with your assessment that those challenged could fight back against, and even kill the attacking xiticix, but if any other soldier jumped in and tried to help out by attacking the xiticix, then "it will become a free-for-all" battle.

Yes. Which still leaves some possibilities. This is 109 PA. 4 years after WB23. The lone challenge was known about then. It wouldn’t take long for Holmes to spread the word. This raises the possibility that noone did leap in, being restrained by others if necessary.

One other is that by packing the troops together so tightly, Holmes made it impossible for any Xiticix to attack just one trooper. Thus, allowing several to attack any one Xiticix without triggering a swarm response.

There are a couple of other possibilities, but these two seem most likely.

I still don't buy it.

As it is, Holmes took advantage of something that WB23 does show repeatedly….the Xiticix do not attack those they do not see as a threat.

EJL

Again, they see any group of more than 8 people/animals as a threat.
(And while cattle might stop moving to graze, they won't do it when somebody is shooting at them. They will flee, without fighting, just like Holmes' men did. And the bugs slaughter them all anyway.)

[cornholioprime]

This is one of my major hang ups with the encounter. How did they survive? How did any vehicles survive even a few hours of combat without returning fire?

I'd guess they did return fire. But by firing defensively, or not at all, they did not challenge or threaten the Xiticix.

How long would a robot or APC last against 8-10 Xiticix warriors swarming upon it with nothing to stop them? I wish there were more details over what was in the group and what exactly survived.

Probably not long. But a lot of people have this idea that there was a massed assault, with hundreds of thousands of Xiticix attacking at once, en masse. I'd argue that the attacks were far more sporadic....perhaps 10-50 soldiers under attack at any one time. That would explain why so many survived, why they were in relatively good shape when they got out and would fit in with the pattern we see in WGB23 where not every warrior attacks a party, but some/a lot hang back until the attacking group is deated.

EJL

I call shenanigans here.

If an Army is invading "your" land, it is the hated and recognized Coalition States Army (twenty-plus years of invading Hives to get Hard Intelligence, remember??), and your Biological Programming "tells" you that ANY Force larger than a handful is a Threat that must be dstroyed, what else would you do if you were Xiticix BESIDES engaging in an all out battle?!?

10 to 50 Soldiers attacked at a time?? That few??

Especially when Holmes lost 90,000 men over three days and by logical extension many times that number must have been wounded?!?

Uh....no.

The Hand of God allowed Holmes the luxury of "tame" Xiticix, the Hand of God allowed his Formations to suffer comparatively minimal damage for an Xiticix Swarm of such awesome size, the Hand of God allowed 300,000 men to survive in a barren Forest for several weeks without apparent means of Food or Water, and the Hand of God allowed not one but several captured Coalition Scouts to give just enough Information from Psychic and Magical Scans to let the Tolkeenites know that these Troops were from Holmes's Army but NOT that they were sent to get Intelligence for Holmes and NOT that the captured Spies had survived the Xiticix Trap along with a huge Army in the North poised to strike.

[tenakafurey]

Yes.
"Larger groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

And a note on how the Xiticix fight ..."The sound of combat will alert scores of other Xiticix Warriors, but only 1D4 from outside the defending squad will join the battle. The others hover and chitter overhead like angry bees, but only watch the battle unfold."

In short, just because there are lots of Xiticix around doesn't mean every one will attack. Indeed, relatively few do so. All we find out for the larger groups is that the dispatched force is larger. There's no sign Xiticix tactics change.

Nothing about the description of the typical xiticix response indicates anything other than a large-scale attack. 2:1 ratio, all attacking.

Except the passage quoted above.

Again, they see any group of more than 8 people/animals as a threat.

Which is missing the central point....they were seen as a threat, and they were attacked.

But, what WB23 shows us is that the Xiticix attack and kill if needed. That is, if they perceive a challenge or a threat - be it to the hive, a warrior or the territory they claim. So, what happens if a group they identify as a threat somehow manages to convince them that it is neither challenging the Xiticix nor is a threat to them?

That is not answered in WB23. By showing that eventually, once they are convinced no threat or challenge exists, the Xiticix will stop attacking, SoT5 does answer it.

It thus becomes a question of knowing what is and what is not a threat/challnege. Holmes did it by keeping his troops on the ground and engaging in defensive actions only.

Or does WB23 actually answer that question?

EJL

[tenakafurey]

If an Army is invading "your" land, it is the hated and recognized Coalition States Army (twenty-plus years of invading Hives to get Hard Intelligence, remember??), and your Biological Programming "tells" you that ANY Force larger than a handful is a Threat that must be dstroyed, what else would you do if you were Xiticix BESIDES engaging in an all out battle?!?

Do exactly what thec Xiticix did.....engage in battle. As it is, SoT3 tells us that the Coalition is not necesarily seen as natural enemies.

Nor does WB23 tell us what happens if a force somehow manages to convince the Xiticix it isn't a threat. SoT5 apparently does.

10 to 50 Soldiers attacked at a time?? That few??

That would be better expressed as an average. As it is...93,000 soldiers lost over 72 hours averages out at 20 or so attacks per minute - or 4 melee rounds. Against a column 400,000 strong...that may not seem like a lot. Indeed, it would also help explain why his troops didn't fire. With only a relatievly few attacks at any one time, his troops may have felt better about following his plan.

the Hand of God allowed 300,000 men to survive in a barren Forest for several weeks without apparent means of Food or Water

Was it ever mentioned if Holmes force included "chuck wagons" or supply vehicles? Or how much notice he had?

and the Hand of God allowed not one but several captured Coalition Scouts to give just enough Information from Psychic and Magical Scans to let the Tolkeenites know that these Troops were from Holmes's Army but NOT that they were sent to get Intelligence for Holmes and NOT that the captured Spies had survived the Xiticix Trap along with a huge Army in the North poised to strike.

Were any actually uncovered? IIRC, SoT6 only listed the steps taken by Holmes to ensure that such probes wouldn't work.

EJL

[grandmaster z0b]

It still seems to me to be a case of dues ex machina; that it does defy logic but it's important to the plot so one has to suspend one's disbelief.

It really feels like people trying to make reasons for it to work rather than looking at it objectively and maybe discussing some better strategies.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes.
"Larger groups of invaders (more than 20) typically elicit a massive swarm of Warriors with two xiticix for every one invader; giant robots and vehicles will earn 4-8 Warriors each."

And a note on how the Xiticix fight ..."The sound of combat will alert scores of other Xiticix Warriors, but only 1D4 from outside the defending squad will join the battle. The others hover and chitter overhead like angry bees, but only watch the battle unfold."

In short, just because there are lots of Xiticix around doesn't mean every one will attack. Indeed, relatively few do so. All we find out for the larger groups is that the dispatched force is larger. There's no sign Xiticix tactics change.

P. 17
"If one gets riled, those around them tend to get excited and every one of them starts moving abour rapidly. The agitated creatures are primed for action, and quick to respond to trouble, attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice."

"... with the Warriors and Hunters exhibiting... strategies and tactics such as coordinated attacks, feints, ambushes, pincer tactics, and [u]large troop operations[/i]."

"They (instinctively) seem to select the best strategy or tactics for the situation and act swiftly."

The Xiticix are perfectly capable of adapting to combat situations and large-scale situations. On the small scale, where 2d6 xiticix can likely handle the situation, it makes some sense to just send in a handful while the rest keep their eyes peeled for more trouble.
It doesn't make sense on the large scale.
Xiticix instinctively use the best tactics, and the best tactic for attacking a huge number of well-armed enemies is to hit them hard and fast with everything you have, not to send in 2d6 soldiers at a time to fight 400,000 enemies.

Again, they see any group of more than 8 people/animals as a threat.

Which is missing the central point....they were seen as a threat, and they were attacked.

But, what WB23 shows us is that the Xiticix attack and kill if needed. That is, if they perceive a challenge or a threat - be it to the hive, a warrior or the territory they claim. So, what happens if a group they identify as a threat somehow manages to convince them that it is neither challenging the Xiticix nor is a threat to them?

That is not answered in WB23. By showing that eventually, once they are convinced no threat or challenge exists, the Xiticix will stop attacking, SoT5 does answer it.

It thus becomes a question of knowing what is and what is not a threat/challnege. Holmes did it by keeping his troops on the ground and engaging in defensive actions only.

Or does WB23 actually answer that question?

EJL

I think that the example of them shooting fleeing civilians and killing cattle answers that question pretty clearly.
Unless you think that the cows shoot back somehow...?

[cornholioprime]

I think that the example of them shooting fleeing civilians and killing cattle answers that question pretty clearly.
Unless you think that the cows shoot back somehow...?

Tenakafurey repeatedly either accidentally or deliberately misses that point.

Civilians don't (usually) carry Weapons; certainly nothing of much import.
And their children definitely don't.
Animals don't carry ANY Weapons at all.

The Xiticix have been granted sufficient IQs as an RCC to know all of this.

Yet they kill all these disparate groups, anyway, even they don't fire a single shot AND run away to boot. And they don't "break off the attack," either.

You mind telling us again, Tenakafurey, exactly how it is that Xiticix will slaughter helpless Men, Women and Children, and non-sentient Animals, even if they flee and offer no resistance whatsoever......but will break off an attack against Armed Troops that they have overwhelming numerical superiority over AND who marched into their Territory??

[grandmaster z0b]

If an Army is invading "your" land, it is the hated and recognized Coalition States Army (twenty-plus years of invading Hives to get Hard Intelligence, remember??), and your Biological Programming "tells" you that ANY Force larger than a handful is a Threat that must be dstroyed, what else would you do if you were Xiticix BESIDES engaging in an all out battle?!?

Do exactly what thec Xiticix did.....engage in battle. As it is, SoT3 tells us that the Coalition is not necesarily seen as natural enemies.

WB:23 clearly states that the reason the CS don't go after the Xiticix in big numbers is because they would see the CS body armour and styling as an enemy to be attacked at any time. Any animal humanoid or larger is seen as a threat if any large group of 8 or more. It is also made quite clear about how they are intollerant of all other lifeforms within their territory. I just find it really hard to believe that the Xiticix would see a column of 400 000 troops not as a threat. Not only does it go against the psychology of almost all territorial animals (especially insects in hives) but it also goes against the general outlook of the insects described by WB:23.

Nor does WB23 tell us what happens if a force somehow manages to convince the Xiticix it isn't a threat. SoT5 apparently does.

10 to 50 Soldiers attacked at a time?? That few??

That would be better expressed as an average. As it is...93,000 soldiers lost over 72 hours averages out at 20 or so attacks per minute - or 4 melee rounds. Against a column 400,000 strong...that may not seem like a lot. Indeed, it would also help explain why his troops didn't fire. With only a relatievly few attacks at any one time, his troops may have felt better about following his plan.

the Hand of God allowed 300,000 men to survive in a barren Forest for several weeks without apparent means of Food or Water

Was it ever mentioned if Holmes force included "chuck wagons" or supply vehicles? Or how much notice he had?

He had no notice. It was a tacitcal retreat from the Sorcerers Revenge, they would have had little as far as food and water because they weren't expecting to be in the wilderness for months.

and the Hand of God allowed not one but several captured Coalition Scouts to give just enough Information from Psychic and Magical Scans to let the Tolkeenites know that these Troops were from Holmes's Army but NOT that they were sent to get Intelligence for Holmes and NOT that the captured Spies had survived the Xiticix Trap along with a huge Army in the North poised to strike.

Were any actually uncovered? IIRC, SoT6 only listed the steps taken by Holmes to ensure that such probes wouldn't work.

EJL

It's extremely hard to believe that the Tolkeen military never once sent a single scout (especially via astral projection or remote viewing) to check what had happened. You think they would be worried about the CS stirring up the Xiticix into swarm mode in case they decended on them from the north.

[Prince Artemis]

technically, this topic acts as a good example as to how the xiticix work really. anything comes into their territory the warriors swarm and heavily assualt them until their dead, no mercy. XD

[tenakafurey]

The Xiticix are perfectly capable of adapting to combat situations and large-scale situations. On the small scale, where 2d6 xiticix can likely handle the situation, it makes some sense to just send in a handful while the rest keep their eyes peeled for more trouble.
It doesn't make sense on the large scale.
Xiticix instinctively use the best tactics, and the best tactic for attacking a huge number of well-armed enemies is to hit them hard and fast with everything you have, not to send in 2d6 soldiers at a time to fight 400,000 enemies.

Which would be the case if their goal was extermination. Given the fact that they do let parties go, that they do cease attacks if the party turns away from the hive, that they don't kill indiscriminately, that they do engage in "honour duels" and so on, extermination doesn't seem to be their goal.

It's removing the threat, or challenge.

Which is the key. Throughout WB23, there is one consistency that I've noticed....the Xiticix tend to attack in respond to a challenge or threat. If there is no threat, or challenge...they don't attack.

And when they do, it is arguably to remove that threat or challenge....not necessarily to destroy the enemy, but to remove the threat or challenge he represents.

Holmes realised this, and presented a non-threatening, non-challenging face. The mere size of the army with him represented a threat that the Xiticix countered, but his response took away the need to destroy a threat or challenge, because none existed.

I think that the example of them shooting fleeing civilians and killing cattle answers that question pretty clearly.
Unless you think that the cows shoot back somehow...?

Which is an example of challenge to territory. The example you site is one wher the Xiticix spend months harrassing those civilians to force them to leave. Only if they stay do they swarm. But those civilains could spend months on the Xiticix land without harm.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

You mind telling us again, Tenakafurey, exactly how it is that Xiticix will slaughter helpless Men, Women and Children, and non-sentient Animals, even if they flee and offer no resistance whatsoever......but will break off an attack against Armed Troops that they have overwhelming numerical superiority over AND who marched into their Territory??

Because the troops would not be challenging them or threatening them.

The civilians, by staying and being there, do. That is the difference.

The Xiticix don't appear to care about resistance, sentience or the arms being carried. But they do appear to care if you threaten them or challenge them.

Do that...and you're dead. Civilians and animals in the area challenge their claim on territory...and so are attacked ad destroyed/driven off with no mercy.

As are troops that attack the Xiticix. Or people who claim land by camping.

An army that fires back only in self defence, which doesn't stop, which cedes the Xiticix the right to control the land and does nothing to threaten or challenge the hive or the warriors? There's no reason to kill them.

EJL

[tenakafurey]

Any animal humanoid or larger is seen as a threat if any large group of 8 or more.

And Holmes army was. Hence, it was attacked.

It is also made quite clear about how they are intollerant of all other lifeforms within their territory.

Yes...very tolerant. So long as you don't threaten them or challenge them. Stop for more than few minutes...it's a challenge. Attack a warrior without provocation...you're a threat. Come in with an army, you're an invader.

So what happens if, through your actions, you convince them you aren't a threat? What happens if you show you aren't going to challenge for the land? That you are ceding all claim to the land? That you aren't even going to attack, except in self defence?

What happens then? What happens if the Xiticix become convinced of this?

Where is that covered in WB23?

Because it looks to me that is what Holmes did. He convinced the hive he was neither a challenger, nor a threat. As such, there was no need to kill him. Hence, the attack stopped.

All consistent with WB23.

He had no notice. It was a tacitcal retreat from the Sorcerers Revenge, they would have had little as far as food and water because they weren't expecting to be in the wilderness for months.

He apparently had enough notice to ensure he had armour, APCs, infantry, Body armour, tanks, etc.

Why would he forget the food? As for not expecting to be in the wilderness for months....they had already been there for years.

It's extremely hard to believe that the Tolkeen military never once sent a single scout (especially via astral projection or remote viewing) to check what had happened. You think they would be worried about the CS stirring up the Xiticix into swarm mode in case they decended on them from the north.

Apparently, any physical scout was attacked long before he got close. Astral projection? Remote viewing? More difficult to explain away...but I'm not looking at that. I'm really just considering the Xiticix aspect.

EJL

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously, would a bunch of Xiticix bother half a million armed men? They probably will attack when they can gather sufficient numbers at a single spot.

Which would be extremely fast.
I've already addressed the numbers.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i notice noone want to touch the range issue
200 miles per day
Daily Calories Requirements

male 2500, female 2000 ,Daily Calories Requirements

The primary indicator of hydration status is plasma or serum osmolality. Because normal hydration can be maintained over a wide range of water intakes, the AI for total water (from a combination of drinking water, beverages, and food) is set based on the median total water intake from U.S. survey data. The AI for total water intake for young men and women (ages 19 to 30 years) is 3.7 L and 2.7 L per day, respectively.1 Fluids (drinking water and beverages) provided 3.0 L (101 fluid oz; ≈ 13 cups) and 2.2 L (74 fluid oz; ≈ 9 cups) per day for 19- to 30-year-old men and women, respectively, representing approximately 81 percent of total water intake in the U.S. survey. Water contained in food provided ap-

water


So the 3 gallons thats 11.3 liters of water per day might be daily requirement but its not the mininal requirements needed to continue on day by day

There is a old military saying

Don't $&^* your buddy

but i can see out there would be more then happy to #$%^ their buddy over without a second thought. But what would you do MV, well if i wasnt killed out right i would wait until until i was a good distanse away and then unload everything i had and if i can get away then i can if not , then i'm not going without a fight, but if i was coalition soldier i would believe in the survival of my species then my own life. and this i believe is drilled into the Coalition Soldiers along with the hate from non-humans.

yes yes Xiticix unite togethor when under attack the facts is they not under attacked , the entire large mass is not showing any threating moves , just passive defensive moves so the other hives willn't send reinforcement to defend a rival's hiveland from a wandering group who is show only passive moves

[Mech-Viper Prime]

This is one of my major hang ups with the encounter. How did they survive? How did any vehicles survive even a few hours of combat without returning fire?

I'd guess they did return fire. But by firing defensively, or not at all, they did not challenge or threaten the Xiticix.

How long would a robot or APC last against 8-10 Xiticix warriors swarming upon it with nothing to stop them? I wish there were more details over what was in the group and what exactly survived.

Probably not long. But a lot of people have this idea that there was a massed assault, with hundreds of thousands of Xiticix attacking at once, en masse. I'd argue that the attacks were far more sporadic....perhaps 10-50 soldiers under attack at any one time. That would explain why so many survived, why they were in relatively good shape when they got out and would fit in with the pattern we see in WGB23 where not every warrior attacks a party, but some/a lot hang back until the attacking group is deated.

EJL

I call shenanigans here.

If an Army is invading "your" land, it is the hated and recognized Coalition States Army (twenty-plus years of invading Hives to get Hard Intelligence, remember??), and your Biological Programming "tells" you that ANY Force larger than a handful is a Threat that must be dstroyed, what else would you do if you were Xiticix BESIDES engaging in an all out battle?!?

10 to 50 Soldiers attacked at a time?? That few??

Especially when Holmes lost 90,000 men over three days and by logical extension many times that number must have been wounded?!?

Uh....no.

The Hand of God allowed Holmes the luxury of "tame" Xiticix, the Hand of God allowed his Formations to suffer comparatively minimal damage for an Xiticix Swarm of such awesome size, the Hand of God allowed 300,000 men to survive in a barren Forest for several weeks without apparent means of Food or Water, and the Hand of God allowed not one but several captured Coalition Scouts to give just enough Information from Psychic and Magical Scans to let the Tolkeenites know that these Troops were from Holmes's Army but NOT that they were sent to get Intelligence for Holmes and NOT that the captured Spies had survived the Xiticix Trap along with a huge Army in the North poised to strike.

a group of Xiticix will react different compared to a group of humans compared to a group of Dragons, compared to a group of gaint mutant ants compared to a group of vampires as compared to a group of Troglodytes compared a group of wolfen , each if presented with a the same the same invading army will react different to it and not the same

ASs for food and water both sides assume , the either they have the supplies or they didnt , It comes down to what type of leader you think holmes is , well anything holmes wants holmes can get, if holmes wanted the SDF-1 at a command center and if the Karl Prosek could wheel and deal with the lord of atlantis, Holmes would end up banging his head a few times entering the bridge of SDF-1, so extra rations wouldnt be too much to ask for

Perhaps a some of the 25% the got killed, losed their cool and opened fire , but they could have hit xiticix and coalition foces, so as worked up as the xiticix would a few xiticix's death isnt going to send up alarms thru the other hivelands. but what if so other who have fought holmes in the past were in the surround areas this may be unlikely but they is a chance one of them help holmes and his troops (remember there are a least a dozen of High ranking mages and a couple of dragons who owe holmes thier lives to him), the fact the mages could easliy teleport in and out of the hivelands with no problem, so high ranking mage could teleport into a apc and drop off some supplies and who know maybe a couple of them teleported until found holmes and they worked out a deal, you never know. While this may be a longshot at best , it could happened

Even animals are rare within five miles of a hive city

WB23 page 20 in the Beyond the Hive Network, while rare it happens from time to time, makes me thing the entire hiveland is no barren as everybody believes but if someone can offer something up about it be nice

[Mech-Viper Prime]

nicely put!

who me? if so which part

[Vrykolas2k]

That would be better expressed as an average. As it is...93,000 soldiers lost over 72 hours averages out at 20 or so attacks per minute - or 4 melee rounds. Against a column 400,000 strong...that may not seem like a lot. Indeed, it would also help explain why his troops didn't fire. With only a relatievly few attacks at any one time, his troops may have felt better about following his plan.

They started with 400,000 troops...ended with 308,000 troops. You are honestly trying to say that within 3 days that his soldiers wouldn't really care that literally 1 in FOUR people were being carried away by giant bugs??? 20 or so attacks per minute? Imagine being an infantryman in D-Day...except D-Day never lets up for three whole days. How stupid are you taking these people for? You don't LET monsters kill every fourth man in your unit!!! You don't stand there and watch them kill or carry off your friends without firing a shot.

DEUS
EX
MACHINA

This wasn't an army of Skelebots that could be ordered to not fire...these were 100% human beings. Jericho would've been killed LONG before he could manuever this miracle machine through the hivelands. For the love of God, they were chased out of their bunks (where the absolute most they could've grabbed was their packs, armor, guns & ammo) and ran deep into the Hivelands where they AGAIN were attacked. Jericho's army SHOULD be dead. It is 100% Hand of God that they lived.

It just hit me.
They're human... CLONE TROOPERS!!!!
They're PROGRAMMED to follow all orders explicitly, and of course that would explain why there are so many CS forces in the first place!
The Emperor just has to initiate a certain Directive, now...
Of course I'm still trying to figure out what they ate and drank, as well as a few other logistical concerns...
Feeding an army that's bigger than many modern cities wouldn't be easy...

[Vrykolas2k]

Does this mean that legions of CS troopers will shoot Cyber-Knights in the back and wipe out the order except for one bearded CK & a little green one?

Just the cyber-knights that work with the CS...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i notice noone want to touch the range issue
200 miles per day

I wasn't bothering with the range of movement since I don't believe they could have survived a day under attack, but if you want I'll call you on it.

200 miles a day? Bull. They got as many people into vehicles as they could, but it didn't say all troops were loaded right? That means they were reduced to the speed of the slowest trooper on foot, not to mention they clustered into groups for defense and moved slowly to seem less threatening. When a vehicle broke down or was destroyed there were more and more peole put on foot. Some power armor troops would have reduced fatigue, but it doesn't matter if they're all sticking together.

Now let us talk of terrain. They were moving through wilderness, not on a road to Candyland. I doubt the bugs, who mostly fly, are out there keeping the wilds in check and unless an old American Empire freeway was left intact for some reason, they couldn't have marched 200 miles in one day, especially while under massive attack. That's like averaging 8 miles per hour, on foot, which is a jog/run!

No, I don't believe they could have traveled that far, that fast. Sorry.

all the Infantry was order to piled into or onto vechile and robots, i suggest you reread SOT5 page 110 and the 200 miles a day is based on 25miles in 3 hours counting in breaks so for 72 road marched the range is 600, that put them way out of range off any hiveland, and just because you cant believe it cant be done doesnt change the facts that it can be done

[RainOfSteel]

In the case of major attacks, raiding swarms are a near certainty.

Which happened.

No. No raiding swarms were sent. Raiding swarms are sent out of the hivelands. Holmes was "left alone" after he left.

That means there were no raiding swarms.

And they got rid of it. Holmes left.

Raiding swarms do not get rid of things inside of Xiticix territory. They do not happen inside of Xiticix territory. They happen after an attack on Xiticix territory has been clearned, and they work outside of Xiticix territory.

[RainOfSteel]

As it is…yes. Holmes would have been a force larger than 8. The question is….what happens if the large group acts in such a way that the Xiticix become convinced they aren’t invaders? Or a threat? Or there to challenge?

There mere existence of an army of 400k would be the threat.

This is 50,000 times larger than the normal threshold to provoke a reaction by the Xiticix.

------------------------------------

If the Xiticix didn't see the CS army as a threat, why did they keep attacking? (That is a rhetorical question.) If the intelligent ones can control the lessers, they would have done so, if they didn't see the CS army as a threat.

This "partial attacking" by the Xiticix and the "passive defense" (highly improbable) by the CS just makes no sense at all . . . as is currently explained by the available information.

[RainOfSteel]

Was it ever mentioned if Holmes force included "chuck wagons" or supply vehicles? Or how much notice he had?

Just covering water.

One 5000 Gallon Water Truck can carry approximately 18,927.059 liters.

18,927.059 liters x 383.444566 such water trucks equals 7257477.92 kilos, and that is equal to the 16,000,000 pounds of water that was calculated further up-topic as being necessary.

Thats quite a train, 384 giant non-MDC vehicles* at $155,000 USD a pop used (eight years old). MDC versions are going to be much more expensive in terms of CS credits.

In any event, no vehicle like this is mentioned anywhere in RMB/CWC/SoT.

I'll skip the discussion of what is necessary to haul the food.

--------------------------------------------------------

* That each require their own non-combat crew, and that must each find a source of water and fill up on because the army will be emptying a good number of them on an hourly basis. In the wilderness. This will require additional equipment for filtration systems or additional tankage for bleach storage (water safety, don't'cha know; we can't have the whole army coming down with giardia, can we?). That'll be more expensive yet, and it will require additional vehicle maintenance time.

[RainOfSteel]

It still seems to me to be a case of dues ex machina; that it does defy logic but it's important to the plot so one has to suspend one's disbelief.

Has to?