Nukes away?

[grandmaster z0b]

Because of the severe environmental damage and they are worried it may set off another PPE surge that created the Rifts in the first place IMO.

[The Galactus Kid]

Which they would. I don't think they understand the destructive capabilities, or what caused the Rifts to begin with, but if they nuke everything, they won't have anyplace to live or grow crops, especially after the fallout spreads.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

In the case of the Xiticix, no one knows what effect the radiation would have on the ones that survive.

The Xiticix are bad enough without having some Godzilla mutation.

Actually, that reasoning works on a lot of things...

~ Josh

[shadrak]

I think of it like the Cold War...the Nuke weapons are used by the Human nations as a deterrent. Not a very good deterrent, but a safety blanket none-the-less. Any, they use nukes, they suddenly become a serious threat, galvanizing disperate nations. Or an all out attack by the Sploogies.

[Killer Cyborg]

In the case of the Xiticix, no one knows what effect the radiation would have on the ones that survive.

The Xiticix are bad enough without having some Godzilla mutation.

Actually, that reasoning works on a lot of things...

~ Josh

You should probably read up on the actual effects of radiation.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don’t know if I’ve read the answer to this and simply forgotten, of if it is not discussed at all. What has prevented nations like the CS and NGR from nuking the bejesus out of their foes?

The simple fact that the CS wants to RULE America, not DESTROY it.

[R Ditto]

Not to mention doing something like Nuking Lazlo would annoy FQ with the nuclear fallout...
Nuking Tolkeen probably would have caused problems for a whole lot of people had it suceeded.
Both would probably also contaminate the great lakes area in one way or another.

I do find one thing funny...
Long Range Missiles can have "nuclear" warheads, but the last I checked, the "lowest" possible yield for a nuclear device (due to minimal nuclear material needed for a critical mass) results in a yield of no less than 5 kilo tons, or 5,000 tons of TNT... or about a thousand times more powerful than the military's MOAB or 5 thousand times the kick of a vehicle packing a ton of explosives...

They should have just called them "fusion" warheads, since such things already existed off the bat as being able to be "small" (fusion blocks in Rifts. For HU2, they do have micro-fusion reactors...)

[Killer Cyborg]

I do find one thing funny...
Long Range Missiles can have "nuclear" warheads, but the last I checked, the "lowest" possible yield for a nuclear device (due to minimal nuclear material needed for a critical mass) results in a yield of no less than 5 kilo tons, or 5,000 tons of TNT... or about a thousand times more powerful than the military's MOAB or 5 thousand times the kick of a vehicle packing a ton of explosives...

Obviously, science in Rifts has advanced enough that they figured a way to make mini-nukes that are a lot less powerful than anything that we could make today.
Why did they do it?
I have no idea.

[glitterboy2098]

I do find one thing funny...
Long Range Missiles can have "nuclear" warheads, but the last I checked, the "lowest" possible yield for a nuclear device (due to minimal nuclear material needed for a critical mass) results in a yield of no less than 5 kilo tons, or 5,000 tons of TNT... or about a thousand times more powerful than the military's MOAB or 5 thousand times the kick of a vehicle packing a ton of explosives...

Davy, Davy Crockett.....

a yeild of 10 tons is the bare minimum. probably the best canidate for the RIFTS micro-nukes, though the blast radius is still far higher in RL. but you can build a nuke for max radiation, minimal blast, in theory.



as far as why the rifts powers don't employ anything bigger, mostly it's a target issue. real nukes, not the firecrackers like the crockett, inflict massive damage to large area's. usually you don't see large enough concentrations of enemy troops or vehicles to make it worthwhile.

[grandmaster z0b]

I do find one thing funny...
Long Range Missiles can have "nuclear" warheads, but the last I checked, the "lowest" possible yield for a nuclear device (due to minimal nuclear material needed for a critical mass) results in a yield of no less than 5 kilo tons, or 5,000 tons of TNT... or about a thousand times more powerful than the military's MOAB or 5 thousand times the kick of a vehicle packing a ton of explosives...

Davy, Davy Crockett.....

a yeild of 10 tons is the bare minimum. probably the best canidate for the RIFTS micro-nukes, though the blast radius is still far higher in RL. but you can build a nuke for max radiation, minimal blast, in theory.



as far as why the rifts powers don't employ anything bigger, mostly it's a target issue. real nukes, not the firecrackers like the crockett, inflict massive damage to large area's. usually you don't see large enough concentrations of enemy troops or vehicles to make it worthwhile.

The CS do have "real" nukes, in CS Navy book it details them and the CS policy on them,, basically they'll only use them as a last ditch thing.

[glitterboy2098]

i know the CS has real nukes. they're the only power listed as actually building them. i was merely pointing out that they refrain from using them because of a lack of worthwhile targets.

you don't see large concentrations of troops and vehicles in rifts combat, surviving cities are either too small or too valuable to level with a nuke.

[Nekira Sudacne]

why not? have you looked at how little damage a real nuke DOES in the CS navy? beyond the fairly small ground 0 radius it dosn't do much MD damage. a gargoyle would EASIALLY survive it, and now you just ruined the land for yourself.

[R Ditto]

On a side note, I don't know why the CS hasn't taken to doing multiple large scale tactical warhead strikes (non-nukes) against any of their targets that they know where they are. Especially the non-human ones.

There are plenty of convential non-nuclear options which would be use to half flatten (if not destroy) any hives they could locate. This would atleast severely hamper their growth?

They could consider there to currently be a bufferzone between them and the bugs and they just dont have to worry about it yet.

First of all, missiles aren't cheap, especially the big ones (something like 500,000 credits each for LRMs iirc).
Second, missiles can be detected on radar or otherwise seen visually, and shot down.
Third, missiles are not easily "renewable", once one is used, it is gone until another one is made to replace it. With things like mini-missiles and grenades, amounts/costs aren't much and mass production is easy, rail guns use easy to mass produce metal slugs, and energy weapons can be easily recharged just about anyplace with a good power source of some sort.
Even artillery like 155mm EM Howitzers are a cheaper alternative to using missiles for bombardment, even if they do have much shorter range.

As for not blasting hives into pieces with missiles, if someone did bombard something like a Xiticix hive with LRMs, the bugs would probably be smart enough to know that they could go swarm in the direction the missiles came from and locate the threat to their hive.

why not? have you looked at how little damage a real nuke DOES in the CS navy? beyond the fairly small ground 0 radius it dosn't do much MD damage. a gargoyle would EASIALLY survive it, and now you just ruined the land for yourself.

I agree that real nukes seem really weak in Rifts, especially close to ground zero, where damage should be much higher, but it does make some sense that damage will be much weaker farther out.
The main "punch" of a real nuke is its blast force and extreme heat at ground zero, the father from ground zero, the weaker the force/heat is because of being more spread out. If you are far enough away, about the only thing you need to worry about is radiation burns and dodging large chunks of debris being thrown into the air by the overpressure, or perhaps getting knocked off your feet by the shockwave.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I don’t know if I’ve read the answer to this and simply forgotten, of if it is not discussed at all. What has prevented nations like the CS and NGR from nuking the bejesus out of their foes?

The simple fact that the CS wants to RULE America, not DESTROY it.

very true KC, thats the main reason behind the Coalition not using DU-rounds, cant have farmland glowing in the dark and people growing arms out there backs

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

In the case of the Xiticix, no one knows what effect the radiation would have on the ones that survive.

The Xiticix are bad enough without having some Godzilla mutation.

Actually, that reasoning works on a lot of things...

~ Josh

You should probably read up on the actual effects of radiation.

We're talking about alien beings with bodies stronger than 21st Century tanks, and a setting where giant lines of Blue Energy run across the land, human beings can gain the power to punch through ballistic steal and where magic actually exists..

Any Earthly data or even Scientific Laws might be irrelevant when dealing with alien beings, especially when magic energy is mixed into the pot.

~ Josh

[Killer Cyborg]

In the case of the Xiticix, no one knows what effect the radiation would have on the ones that survive.

The Xiticix are bad enough without having some Godzilla mutation.

Actually, that reasoning works on a lot of things...

~ Josh

You should probably read up on the actual effects of radiation.

We're talking about alien beings with bodies stronger than 21st Century tanks, and a setting where giant lines of Blue Energy run across the land, human beings can gain the power to punch through ballistic steal and where magic actually exists..

Any Earthly data or even Scientific Laws might be irrelevant when dealing with alien beings, especially when magic energy is mixed into the pot.

~ Josh

It can generally be assumed that the laws of physics operates normally except as otherwise mentioned.
Otherwise you might as well argue that lasers might make xiticix mutate into godzilla-like creatures.
Or that gravity might.

The most dangerous thing that would happen from irradiating a bunch of xiticix would be that they'd get cranky from having a really low sperm count.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

In the case of the Xiticix, no one knows what effect the radiation would have on the ones that survive.

The Xiticix are bad enough without having some Godzilla mutation.

Actually, that reasoning works on a lot of things...

~ Josh

You should probably read up on the actual effects of radiation.

We're talking about alien beings with bodies stronger than 21st Century tanks, and a setting where giant lines of Blue Energy run across the land, human beings can gain the power to punch through ballistic steal and where magic actually exists..

Any Earthly data or even Scientific Laws might be irrelevant when dealing with alien beings, especially when magic energy is mixed into the pot.

~ Josh

It can generally be assumed that the laws of physics operates normally except as otherwise mentioned.
Otherwise you might as well argue that lasers might make xiticix mutate into godzilla-like creatures.
Or that gravity might.

The most dangerous thing that would happen from irradiating a bunch of xiticix would be that they'd get cranky from having a really low sperm count.

I disagree.

The Palladium Megaverse has Super Heroes who gained their powers from a mutation stemming from Nuclear Radiation.

Plus, Rifts has the Keepers of the Desert who were mutated by Nuclear Radiation (in Conjunction with Magic Energy?).

By the Earth Model, both should have died or been rendered sterile at the very least, but the Earth model holds less weight when magic is thrown into the mix., and possibly no weight in another dimension or to creatures from that dimension.

Thus, there is no way of knowing what Nuclear Radiation would do to the Alien Xiticix. Maybe it will kill them? Maybe it will weaken them? Maybe it will give them double the amount of M.D.C.? Maybe it will turn them all into Jerry Louis? Who knows?

The CS doesn't, and thus they'll think long and hard before nuking the Hivelands.

~ Josh

[Killer Cyborg]

It can generally be assumed that the laws of physics operates normally except as otherwise mentioned.
Otherwise you might as well argue that lasers might make xiticix mutate into godzilla-like creatures.
Or that gravity might.

The most dangerous thing that would happen from irradiating a bunch of xiticix would be that they'd get cranky from having a really low sperm count.

I disagree.

The Palladium Megaverse has Super Heroes who gained their powers from a mutation stemming from Nuclear Radiation.

Following the tradition of comic book heroes designed back when radiation was a lot more mysterious.
Appropriate for a comic-book world, but not so much for Rifts.

Plus, Rifts has the Keepers of the Desert who were mutated by Nuclear Radiation (in Conjunction with Magic Energy?).

Who?

By the Earth Model, both should have died or been rendered sterile at the very least, but the Earth model holds less weight when magic is thrown into the mix., and possibly no weight in another dimension or to creatures from that dimension.

Only where magic is concerned, not where everything else is concerned. Just because there is magic in Rifts Earth, that doesn't mean that science and reason gets tossed out the window.

Thus, there is no way of knowing what Nuclear Radiation would do to the Alien Xiticix. Maybe it will kill them? Maybe it will weaken them? Maybe it will give them double the amount of M.D.C.? Maybe it will turn them all into Jerry Louis? Who knows?

You could make the same argument about flan.
"Who knows what this substance might do to the alien physiology of the xiticix? Will it kill them? Make them stronger? Turn them into Godzilla?"

Nope. Not unless it's magic flan. In which case, it would be the magic doing the mutation, not the flan.

The CS doesn't, and thus they'll think long and hard before nuking the Hivelands.

~ Josh

Much, much, much, much, much more likely is the fact that they don't want to set off nukes close to their home, causing nuclear winter and fallout problems for the CS territory, killing crops and humans.
And, of course, the fact that the CS would like to occupy the xiticix lands someday, and irradiated wastelands aren't that great a place to live.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

It can generally be assumed that the laws of physics operates normally except as otherwise mentioned.
Otherwise you might as well argue that lasers might make xiticix mutate into godzilla-like creatures.
Or that gravity might.

The most dangerous thing that would happen from irradiating a bunch of xiticix would be that they'd get cranky from having a really low sperm count.

I disagree.

The Palladium Megaverse has Super Heroes who gained their powers from a mutation stemming from Nuclear Radiation.

Following the tradition of comic book heroes designed back when radiation was a lot more mysterious.
Appropriate for a comic-book world, but not so much for Rifts.

However, it still applies to Rifts Earth. HU2 is part of the Megaverse, plus the dimension inwhich it sits is a lot more like our own and a lot less alien than the Xiticix Homeworld (or even Rifts Earth for that matter). You yourself said that the laws apply throughout the Megaverse (which I think is patently absurd), and thus it applies using both your reasoning and my own.

Plus, Rifts has the Keepers of the Desert who were mutated by Nuclear Radiation (in Conjunction with Magic Energy?).

Who?

The Keepers of the Desert, they're in New west.

[Killer Cyborg]

Following the tradition of comic book heroes designed back when radiation was a lot more mysterious.
Appropriate for a comic-book world, but not so much for Rifts.

However, it still applies to Rifts Earth. HU2 is part of the Megaverse, plus the dimension inwhich it sits is a lot more like our own and a lot less alien than the Xiticix Homeworld (or even Rifts Earth for that matter). You yourself said that the laws apply throughout the Megaverse (which I think is patently absurd), and thus it applies using both your reasoning and my own.

When did I say that?

The fact is that Palladium has different games, and they have different flavors. The rules of the games (and therefore the rules of the different universes) vary a bit to highlight the different flavors of the different games.
A "Captain Atomic" type super hero fits in well for a 4-color type Heroes Unlimited game, but not so well with a gritty post-apocalyptic world.

The Keepers of the Desert, they're in New west.

'Nuff said, then.

[shadrak]

I think there is little fear of radiation (alone) creating a viable Super Creature. Either of you could be right, depending on interpretation. The radiation that has provided for beneficial mutations in Rifts generally requires a magic component, so you would have to include some sort of justification for a beneficial transformation. Also, mutations that occur in Rifts that do have beneficial side effects generally require several generations to emerge, during which time the population is weakened.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Following the tradition of comic book heroes designed back when radiation was a lot more mysterious.
Appropriate for a comic-book world, but not so much for Rifts.

However, it still applies to Rifts Earth. HU2 is part of the Megaverse, plus the dimension inwhich it sits is a lot more like our own and a lot less alien than the Xiticix Homeworld (or even Rifts Earth for that matter). You yourself said that the laws apply throughout the Megaverse (which I think is patently absurd), and thus it applies using both your reasoning and my own.

When did I say that?

Here:

It can generally be assumed that the laws of physics operates normally except as otherwise mentioned.

I thought you meant throughout the entire Megaverse. If you didn't, I apologize.

The fact is that Palladium has different games, and they have different flavors. The rules of the games (and therefore the rules of the different universes) vary a bit to highlight the different flavors of the different games.
A "Captain Atomic" type super hero fits in well for a 4-color type Heroes Unlimited game, but not so well with a gritty post-apocalyptic world.

Remember though, each game is considered another Dimension by Rifts standards, thus that perfectly illustrates my point about how a being from another dimension might respond differently to radiation than an Earthly one (or perhaps it is the radiation that acts differently).

~ Josh

[Killer Cyborg]

It can generally be assumed that the laws of physics operates normally except as otherwise mentioned.

I thought you meant throughout the entire Megaverse. If you didn't, I apologize.

The laws of physics as we know them do apply throughout the megaverse, unless otherwise noted.
In Heroes Unlimited, it is noted that under certain circumstances, certain types of radiation might cause beneficial mutation.
Not so much in Rifts.

Remember though, each game is considered another Dimension by Rifts standards, thus that perfectly illustrates my point about how a being from another dimension might respond differently to radiation than an Earthly one (or perhaps it is the radiation that acts differently).

It's more that the rules of physics are slightly different in that dimension.
It's not like a HU human can come to Rifts Earth and gain super powers from radiation that would kill any Rifts human.

[Killer Cyborg]

Is so much in rifts. See Keepers of the Desert mentioned above. May not be your favorit world book but new west is part of the rifts world.

One incident our of dozens of books isn't much.
I can't look them up, because I don't own the book.

New West may be part of Rifts, but it's a bad part, a part that screwed things up quite a bit. Not a part that should be held up as an example of how things should actually work in the world of Rifts.

[Daniel Stoker]

One incident our of dozens of books isn't much.
I can't look them up, because I don't own the book.

New West may be part of Rifts, but it's a bad part, a part that screwed things up quite a bit. Not a part that should be held up as an example of how things should actually work in the world of Rifts.

One out of a dozen books might not be much but is there anything contradicting it anywhere else? As to New West being a bad part... it's still Rifts, don't we pretty much have to go with the what the books say in regards to canon? I still think water pistols are silly for vampires but I'm stuck with that canon rule when discussing vamps on the boards.


Daniel Stoker

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is so much in rifts. See Keepers of the Desert mentioned above. May not be your favorit world book but new west is part of the rifts world.

One incident our of dozens of books isn't much.
I can't look them up, because I don't own the book.

New West may be part of Rifts, but it's a bad part, a part that screwed things up quite a bit. Not a part that should be held up as an example of how things should actually work in the world of Rifts.

...I"m sorry KC. "I don't approve of it" dosn't change the rules.

[glitterboy2098]

What about neutron bombs? Any of these still exist?

possibly, but a Neutron bomb is a fusion weapon, and the nukes the CS has been listed as building are fission. (using enriched nuclear material from nuclear power supply byproducts. note that except for two referances, one in RUE and one possible in merc ops, RIFTs nuclear powerplants have been consistantly described with efects implying fission.)

it is possible for the CS to build fusion, and they may be. neutron bombs have no canon referance that i know of.

[Daniel Stoker]

What about neutron bombs? Any of these still exist?

The tech to make them may exist but unless they found a new way to make them then no as the material used (tritium) has a half life of 12.3 years so you can't really stockpile them.


Daniel Stoker

[Rimmerdal]

and how about a 'clean' small,tactical nuke? like they use in Starcraft. big enough to knock the stuffing out of enemies, but not to cause damage to suroundings enviromentally...

Certainly Triax, Northern gun and the CS could easily make them. (northern guns would be smaller slightly less effective, but none the less usable.)

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

and how about a 'clean' small,tactical nuke? like they use in Starcraft. big enough to knock the stuffing out of enemies, but not to cause damage to suroundings enviromentally...

Certainly Triax, Northern gun and the CS could easily make them. (northern guns would be smaller slightly less effective, but none the less usable.)

Those are the nuclear missiles that people were complaining about early in this thread. You can find them in RUE and a bunch of other books.

"True" City-Buster Nukes are in Coalition Navy.

~ Josh

[Rimmerdal]

and how about a 'clean' small,tactical nuke? like they use in Starcraft. big enough to knock the stuffing out of enemies, but not to cause damage to suroundings enviromentally...

Certainly Triax, Northern gun and the CS could easily make them. (northern guns would be smaller slightly less effective, but none the less usable.)

Those are the nuclear missiles that people were complaining about early in this thread. You can find them in RUE and a bunch of other books.

"True" City-Buster Nukes are in Coalition Navy.

~ Josh

Gotch ya.

[Aramanthus]

Tritium is easy enough for the coalition to come by. They have plenty of water to work with. Fusion weapons, I have no doubt could exist in Rifts. In my game, those are the larger weapons. And I have another power who has them too. Since they made a very successful raid against a very specific place in Amarillo, Tx.

[Hannibal]

On a side note, I don't know why the CS hasn't taken to doing multiple large scale tactical warhead strikes (non-nukes) against any of their targets that they know where they are. Especially the non-human ones.

There are plenty of convential non-nuclear options which would be use to half flatten (if not destroy) any hives they could locate. This would atleast severely hamper their growth?

They could consider there to currently be a bufferzone between them and the bugs and they just dont have to worry about it yet.

If I remember correctly, didn't the CS deploy smaller nukes at the end of the Tolkeen War, on Freehold specifically?

I thought I also remembered a reference that the NGR deploys nukes on Gargoyles... of course, I could be confusing that with the one time our old GM let us try playing Gargoyles, and he quickly decided he didn't like GMing that campaign so he had the NGR chair farce nuke us repeatedly into oblivion....

[Danger]

Because of the severe environmental damage and they are worried it may set off another PPE surge that created the Rifts in the first place IMO.

That sums it up nicely, I believe.

[shadrak]

They use both....you can see that in the more recent Mercenary texts as well, I think. That's in addition to WB 5.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

In WB #s 26-27 they state that radiation is STILL a problem after 300 years, and nobody nuked the southeast.

I also remember reading that the NGR uses Uranium (hot) ammo to waste gargoyles. So using that logic they likely would not be really worried about small scale radiation contamination. I would personally though. I don’t like the thought of loosing all my hair and growing feelers……

That's the NGR, who are in a state of Total War where the objective is not conquest, rather survival against two Nations, and possibly two more.

The CS doesn't use DU or U rounds, except on a few Naval Vessels.

~ Josh

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

If I remember correctly, didn't the CS deploy smaller nukes at the end of the Tolkeen War, on Freehold specifically?

Yeah, they nuked Freehold so they wouldn't have to deal with hundreds of Dragons. One of the many reason that the Dragonkings got the hell out of Dodge.

On a sidebar:. In GitS:SAC 2nd Gig, they spread some type of Nano-machine or micro organism around an area that they planned to Nuke. The purpose being to lessen the fallout (IIRC). How plausable is that technology, and could the CS manufacture it?

~ Josh

[Rahmota]

Josh: About the micro organism. I think I read in Popular Science or one of the related magazines about a bacteria that scientists where playing with trying to get it to eat radioactive wastes and other toxic goo. At least I think thats what I recall from the article.

Maybe during the golden age they got it worked out?

[Sureshot]

To answer the OP question. If the CS and NGR could they would though only as a last resort as Nukes have all kinds of problems. Least of which is when you use them your enemies will.

[rat_bastard]

I was just reading the Nuke section of Coalition Navy. It says nuke damage is 1 MDC for heat, 3D6 MDC for dynamic pressure, and 3D6X10 for radiation (116 MDC average total). It also says that these are “clean devices” with “minimal fallout”. Sounds perfect for melting Xiticix out of existence.

except one minor detail...
everything the xitixic need to completly rebuild their socitey is under thousands of feet of mega damage stone, the queens, the eggs, the nannys, the magik mold they eat, all in safe bunkers, and as supenatural mdc critters, the radiation is not going to be as damaging as it would be to say, coalition citizens.

[Killer Cyborg]

Is so much in rifts. See Keepers of the Desert mentioned above. May not be your favorit world book but new west is part of the rifts world.

One incident our of dozens of books isn't much.
I can't look them up, because I don't own the book.

New West may be part of Rifts, but it's a bad part, a part that screwed things up quite a bit. Not a part that should be held up as an example of how things should actually work in the world of Rifts.

...I"m sorry KC. "I don't approve of it" dosn't change the rules.

Of course not, I never said that it did.
The RULES, in this case, don't say a thing about normal radiation creating super-xiticix.

[Killer Cyborg]

One incident our of dozens of books isn't much.
I can't look them up, because I don't own the book.

New West may be part of Rifts, but it's a bad part, a part that screwed things up quite a bit. Not a part that should be held up as an example of how things should actually work in the world of Rifts.

One out of a dozen books might not be much but is there anything contradicting it anywhere else? As to New West being a bad part... it's still Rifts, don't we pretty much have to go with the what the books say in regards to canon? I still think water pistols are silly for vampires but I'm stuck with that canon rule when discussing vamps on the boards.


Daniel Stoker

Sure, and those specific radiation-mutated creatures are canon.
But that's it.
Until they come up with rules or tables for normal nukes mutating any creature they hit, that is NOT canon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thats funny "the New West Book Sucks".

The New West is one of the most balanced books out of the entire rifts line, Short of the original Rifts Main Book. Little Power Creep, good O.C.C.'s and a well rounded feel for it. Although I do belive people take the New West Books way overboard, you know what I'm talking about the gunfights every day at high noon. Heck in one game I played we almost had to reserve a timeslot for a shoot-out (Ok I'm joking here).

Compare the guns and armor in New West to the stuff before it. New West is clearly more powerful.
Dinosaurs get a power increase of 10x or more.
Pistols average power level goes from 2d4 to 2d6.
Armor increases. Rifles increase.
Unnecessary and over-powered classes.

There is some good stuff in it, but the book overall did more harm than good.

[Danger]

Thats funny "the New West Book Sucks".

The New West is one of the most balanced books out of the entire rifts line, Short of the original Rifts Main Book. Little Power Creep, good O.C.C.'s and a well rounded feel for it. Although I do belive people take the New West Books way overboard, you know what I'm talking about the gunfights every day at high noon. Heck in one game I played we almost had to reserve a timeslot for a shoot-out (Ok I'm joking here).

Compare the guns and armor in New West to the stuff before it. New West is clearly more powerful.
Dinosaurs get a power increase of 10x or more.
Pistols average power level goes from 2d4 to 2d6.
Armor increases. Rifles increase.
Unnecessary and over-powered classes.

There is some good stuff in it, but the book overall did more harm than good.

I disagree. The New West has a great feel to it, overall. It doesn't set off my 'Munchkin Alarm' when I read through it.

There are some tougher Dinosaurs now. So? Aren't some demons tougher than others? Same should go for all sorts of creatures, monsters, aliens, etc.

Clearly more powerful? I'd wager that the power creep to both guns & armor were well on the rise before New West. In fact, how about Triax & the NGR, South America 1 & 2, Japan, Coalition War Campaign, Juicer Uprising (another of your favorites), Underseas & Psyscape? All of these came out before the New West. So casting 'the New West increased the tech level' stones is a little silly. You just don't like the setting.

Unnecessary Classes? Aren't you submitting a Rifter article with O.C.C.s for the common man? Many of the classes in the New West are really just that. They aren't necessarily intended for player characters, they're just flavor for the setting. I have no problem with this, as it does add a sense of 'not every Tom, Dick, & Harry is capable of kicking your ass'. There are actual 'normal' people in the world, it isn't just populated by Juicers & Glitterboys. That said, I'm eagerly looking forward to your own article seeing print. (Hop to it, man!)

Over-powered classes? Mmm. Not really. There are one or two that really stand out, but as I mentioned in the tech level paragraph above, New West is hardly the villain in the 'let's put more powerful classes in the game' category. In fact, with the exception of one or two, most of the New West O.C.C.'s are less powerful than the R:UE O.C.C.'s, and are certainly comparable (if still not weaker) to the RMB versions as well.

On the contrary, I think that the book did a lot of good. The Western in Rifts is a great theme, & I really get the feel for that when I look at the book. That's a great thing, to be able to look at the book & especially the artwork, & get immersed within the setting. It also lends alot to the post-apocalypse, humanity struggling against nature & the supernatural while trying to survive & eke out a living, fear of the unknown elements that the original book introduced us to. To me, it's back to the basics, and I eat that stuff up.

Now, mind you, I haven't read The Spirit West just yet (my fiancee just bought me a copy of it) so maybe this is where your rampant hatred of the setting comes from. I'm pretty sure that's where the laser bow is written up.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Thats funny "the New West Book Sucks".

The New West is one of the most balanced books out of the entire rifts line, Short of the original Rifts Main Book. Little Power Creep, good O.C.C.'s and a well rounded feel for it. Although I do belive people take the New West Books way overboard, you know what I'm talking about the gunfights every day at high noon. Heck in one game I played we almost had to reserve a timeslot for a shoot-out (Ok I'm joking here).

Compare the guns and armor in New West to the stuff before it. New West is clearly more powerful.
Dinosaurs get a power increase of 10x or more.
Pistols average power level goes from 2d4 to 2d6.
Armor increases. Rifles increase.
Unnecessary and over-powered classes.

There is some good stuff in it, but the book overall did more harm than good.

and yet at the same time, the increased armor and weapons match well aginst each-other, the OCC's work well dispite cheesiness.

ya know KC, sometimes when talking with you I don't think you think it's impossible to increase power without being "power creep"

seriously, do you really not want there to be any increases at all?

[Danger]

Seriously, do you really not want there to be any increases at all?

Only NPC's are capable of increasing the power of anything.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thats funny "the New West Book Sucks".

The New West is one of the most balanced books out of the entire rifts line, Short of the original Rifts Main Book. Little Power Creep, good O.C.C.'s and a well rounded feel for it. Although I do belive people take the New West Books way overboard, you know what I'm talking about the gunfights every day at high noon. Heck in one game I played we almost had to reserve a timeslot for a shoot-out (Ok I'm joking here).

Compare the guns and armor in New West to the stuff before it. New West is clearly more powerful.
Dinosaurs get a power increase of 10x or more.
Pistols average power level goes from 2d4 to 2d6.
Armor increases. Rifles increase.
Unnecessary and over-powered classes.

There is some good stuff in it, but the book overall did more harm than good.

I disagree. The New West has a great feel to it, overall. It doesn't set off my 'Munchkin Alarm' when I read through it.

There are some tougher Dinosaurs now. So? Aren't some demons tougher than others? Same should go for all sorts of creatures, monsters, aliens, etc.

It's not that some dinosaurs are tougher now; it's that the same dinosaurs are tougher now.
A T-Rex went from 40 MDC at most to having 10-20 times as much, for example.
Considering that dinos shouldn't even be MDC creatures in the first place, I find this sort of blatant gratuitous power boosting to be absurd.

Clearly more powerful? I'd wager that the power creep to both guns & armor were well on the rise before New West. In fact, how about Triax & the NGR, South America 1 & 2, Japan, Coalition War Campaign, Juicer Uprising (another of your favorites), Underseas & Psyscape? All of these came out before the New West. So casting 'the New West increased the tech level' stones is a little silly. You just don't like the setting.

Triax and the South America books- Did nothing to increase the average power level in North America, or of humanity as a whole.

Japan- Is an abomination that should have never been written. (and it does nothing to increase the power level of North America)

Juicer Uprising- Added to power creep quite a bit, in stupid ways. Easily as bad as New West.

Underseas- did nothing to increase the power level of the average character.

Psyscape- Isn't a great book. Luckily, the munchy stuff in there can easily be compartmentalized to a single city of Psyscape.

I don't mind the setting exactly, but it was poorly written. A showdown is about suspense. Two men face off, and the faster one lives.
This would have worked perfectly with the Rifts setting, IF they had done things right, by providing weaker armor and weapons instead of upping the power level.
The point of a showdown is ruined when you don't have a chance of killing the other person with your first shot. Or your second, or fifth.
There is no more suspense than in a normal combat encounter; less, since you know what you're up against.
The New West should have had mostly SDC gear, with light MD weapons. Not only would this have made showdowns in the New West worthwhile, it would have eliminated the need for the stupidly over-powered dinosaurs. A T-Rex with 40 MDC that does 2d6 MD on a bite can be terrifying if you're wearing SDC armor and equipped with an AK-47.

Unnecessary Classes? Aren't you submitting a Rifter article with O.C.C.s for the common man? Many of the classes in the New West are really just that. They aren't necessarily intended for player characters, they're just flavor for the setting. I have no problem with this, as it does add a sense of 'not every Tom, ****, & Harry is capable of kicking your ass'. There are actual 'normal' people in the world, it isn't just populated by Juicers & Glitterboys. That said, I'm eagerly looking forward to your own article seeing print. (Hop to it, man!)

The original Rifts book had an OCC for the common man; The Vagabond. Compare the Saloon Bum, Barmaid, and other New West OCCs to the original Vagabond class and see if you can find a power level difference.

For my article, I based all the Non-Adventuring OCCs on the power level of the original Vagabond, only I took it down a small notch.
One of the problems with Rifts is that the writers feel the need to make everything badass by increasing the power level with every book, but that's insane. Everything is already completely badasss as it is, and it has been since the main book. Don't believe me? Take any character in Plastic Man armor with a Wilk's 320 pistol, and send them to any of the other Palladium game settings without watering them down.
What the writers should have been doing is more stuff like Chipwell and other low-powered weapons, armor, and characters. The more normal powered stuff is floating around in Rifts, the more the god-like powers of the average Player Character is highlighted. But when every freakin' Barmaid has an OCC just as powerful as most of the adventureing classes, the power level of the PCs is washed away.
When everybody is extraordinary, then nobody is.

Over-powered classes? Mmm. Not really. There are one or two that really stand out, but as I mentioned in the tech level paragraph above, New West is hardly the villain in the 'let's put more powerful classes in the game' category. In fact, with the exception of one or two, most of the New West O.C.C.'s are less powerful than the R:UE O.C.C.'s, and are certainly comparable (if still not weaker) to the RMB versions as well.

Unfortunately, things got boosted in RUE.
That does not make the New West OCCs any less of a travesty. They get special skills and abilites based arbitrarily on their region. Give me ONE good reason why some schmuck who lives west of the Mississippi and has trained all of his life with a pistol would be any better than anybody east of the Mississippi who has put in the same time and effort.
And don't get me started on the class(es) with HTH Commando.

On the contrary, I think that the book did a lot of good. The Western in Rifts is a great theme, & I really get the feel for that when I look at the book. That's a great thing, to be able to look at the book & especially the artwork, & get immersed within the setting. It also lends alot to the post-apocalypse, humanity struggling against nature & the supernatural while trying to survive & eke out a living, fear of the unknown elements that the original book introduced us to. To me, it's back to the basics, and I eat that stuff up.

No, No, and No.
The game doesn't contribute to the post-apocalyptic feel; it screws it over. The Western territories were described as uninhabited, and it added people. Not just people; people with technology that is just as good or BETTER than the Coalition and the technology in the more populated areas.
The New West book should have been less Dodge City and more Oregon Trail. It should have been about exploring an unknown frontier, where no human has set foot in a hundred years or more. It should have allowed the PCs to be the new Louis & Clark instead of trying to put them into the role of a few gunslingers out of many.

As it is, the New West book could have made a decent Dimension book, and it would have been a lot more interesting and less unbalancing.
"In the coming of the Rifts, several cities (or a large Western type theme park) ended getting zapped right off of the planet and landing in another dimension, on a deserted desert world. Cut off from the rest of humanity, they form a new culture based on the stereotypes of an old culture..."
or something like that.

You can't enhance a post-apocalypse setting by adding more people. It's that simple.

Now, mind you, I haven't read The Spirit West just yet (my fiancee just bought me a copy of it) so maybe this is where your rampant hatred of the setting comes from. I'm pretty sure that's where the laser bow is written up.

That too.

[cornholioprime]

Because of the severe environmental damage and they are worried it may set off another PPE surge that created the Rifts in the first place IMO.

Virutally NOBODY on Rifts Earth knows exactly what happened on 22 Dec 2098.

Maybe A.R.C.H.I.E.

Maybe a few Atlanteans who were aorund but survived the centuries and who would probably know what a worldwide "PPE-Bomb" would "look" like.

Maybe even Angel Herrinsel (a.k.a. Mindwerks' Angel of Death), who was around and MAY have been able to get what little news still existed in 2098.

The U.S. Official Records (that is to say, what is today known as Coalition "intelligence") know that it wasn't a Nuclear War, but they sure don't know that it was a PPE Surge that brought the whole thing on.

Otherwise, Z0b is right on.

The Coalition doesn't just have those super-tidy Nukes that God (Kevin) designed that 'magically' limit their most dangerous effects to a few piddly feet, but super-dirty Golden Age Nukes that make our Real World ones look like firecrackers.

If the Coalition ever sets off Nuclear Winter, the only people that they'll be hurting in the long run is themselves, what with significantly reducng worldwide Human Populations and all.

Not to mention pissing off Splynncryth when the Fallout reaches his Continent and kills off his beautiful, beloved forests.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

They dont nuke anyone because it would make for crappy books.

Rifts World Book 22: Xiticix Invasion: 1 Page. "The CS Nukes the Xiticix into dust. THE END."

Coalition Wars Siege on Tolkeen Book 1: 1 Page. "The CS Nukes Tolkeen. Everybody there dies. Chi-Town rejoices. THE END."

Rifts World Book 5: Triax and the NGR: 1 Page. "The NGR nukes the Gargoyles AND the Brodkil. They all die. THE END."

Does that sound like fun to you?

[Killer Cyborg]

They dont nuke anyone because it would make for crappy books.

Rifts World Book 22: Xiticix Invasion: 1 Page. "The CS Nukes the Xiticix into dust. THE END."

Coalition Wars Siege on Tolkeen Book 1: 1 Page. "The CS Nukes Tolkeen. Everybody there dies. Chi-Town rejoices. THE END."

Rifts World Book 5: Triax and the NGR: 1 Page. "The NGR nukes the Gargoyles AND the Brodkil. They all die. THE END."

Does that sound like fun to you?

Kind of.