Sniper rifles and the damage they do

[shadrak]

For an unarmored kill, I can use an SDC rifle. If damage is not increased, it has no application on the battlefield. I can still snipe at troops in a forward operating base, but there is no reason to attack a patrol as a sniper.

Maybe I just want to kill one or two guys and exfiltrate. Using the current rules, I may as well use a plasma cannon (since the range is probably not significantly different).

At the very least, sniper rifles should get bonuses similar to the rifles in Dino Swamp...they have an increased chance of getting a critical shot.

[shadrak]

True...but if they just gave the opportunity to have a critical shot, I would be much happier.

They could make a "sniper shot" that only people with the sniper skill could have...a natural 15 or 16-20 resulting in a critical hit on an aimed shot.

And, I wouldn't mind a penalty: this sniper shot could take 3 melee actions or 1/2 of all melee actions.

[shadrak]

I wouldn't want any other type of rifle to get the option, since there must be a way to differenciate between sniper rifles and normal rifle (what bonus does the C-10 have over the C-12)

Perhaps someone with this sniper skill could also get just a "bit more" out of their sniper rifle...+30% range, -30% damage, and a shot penalty, again only with sniper rifles.

[Dead Boy]

I'm of the opinion that this issue can be solved with the expansion of the capabilities of the Sniper Skill. If an increase in or multiple of the damage were linked to a special sniper's called shot (same setup as the Called, Aimed shot in RUE, taking three melee actions) based on how well the skill roll were made by, then not only could the problem of underpowered sniper rifles be solved, but it would also make it so it wouldn't create another problem with everone and his dog suddenly using extra damaging attacks in every fight.

For example, say the special sniper's called shot had a 38% base +4% per level. The extra damage multiple could be for every +5% the skill is made by (rounded down so just making it will get you something) you get an extra +1D6 MD/SDC to the attack, depending on the kind of rifle being used. So if Joe Sniper is a 6th level whatever and has this skill at level, he would have a 62% on his skill. If he rolled a 34 on his percentiles in executing the special attack after having taken the time to set it up properly, and assuming he hits the mark, he would get an extra 6D6 MD to his JA-11's base of 4D6 MD (wtih a total of 10D6, he should be allowed the option of rolling a 1D6x10 MD).

Just a thought, but would resolve a lot of gripes.

[shadrak]

I first thought about this when a character wanted to shoot an MDC being (don't remember what creature it was, but it had about 400 MDC). MDC creatures never come out of their armor.

[Killer Cyborg]

The topic is as follows. Should sniper rifles be capable of one shot one kill attacks in the setting of RIFTS earth when dealing with a fully armored opponent.

Not only NO, but Heck NO!
The entire point of armor is so that you can't be blown away by some schmuck with a rifle in the first place. Sniping rifles that could reliably kill a fully armored opponent in a single shot would make armor obsolete.

The job of a sniper is to shoot from an unseen location. The current (and traditional) preference is for one-hit/one-kill, but things don't work that way in Rifts, and they shouldn't.
Snipers can still be fun and deadly without blasting through heavy armor in a single shot, but armor can't be fun if it can be taken out in a single hit.

Is the 4D6 MD of many sniper rifles to low for a weapon to be considered a sniper rifle

The damage is just fine. A 4d6 MD laser is already more powerful than any other laser rifle damage. Average is 2d6, with 3d6 on the high end. 4d6 for a single shot is superb.

Is the average range of sniper rifles to low.

Not that I know of. What IS the average range of sniper rifles in Rifts Earth?
Ideally, I suppose I would prefer 4000'-5000'. Maybe 6000' for a top-of-the-line model that was either very large or that had reduced damage.

Hopefully this thread will bring up some good discusion on this topic and help to keep other boards cleared up for their original purpose.

My idea:

Advanced Sniper skill.
Requires the appropriate weapon proficiency and the Sniper skill.
-The Sniper recieves a +1 Natural strike bonus on aimed (or Called) shots for every additional attack spent setting up the shot (NOT including the attacks that need to be used simply to make an aimed shot in the first place). The maximum applicable bonus with this is equal to the current level of the sniper. So a 5th level sniper could spend 7 attacks (2 for Aimed Shot, and 5 more to set up the shot better) and shoot at the target with a Natural +5 bonus to strike. If the sniper rolls a natural 15 or more, then it counts as a critical hit.
-The sniper recieves no range penalties when making an aimed shot (although the maximum range of the weapon is unchanged).

[Nightmaster]

Hey guys you all are forgeting the Palladium Compendium of Contemporary Weapons

In it there is a table that deals with damage in specific areas like the head.

This table can be used to allow snipers to maximize they ability put down targets with just one hit. The part on the head deals that a sucessful hit mean that it can inflict double damage already (not counting a critical).

Just adapt the rules here to the Rifst setting that dont use caliber of bulets to determine effect and it can make a sniper a force reckon on the battlefield.

[JohnS]

IIRC Rifter #23 had some alternate sniping rules in it p. 75 & 76.

They had some interesting ideas on kill shots and snipers in general.

--JohnS

[Jefffar]

I don't think there needs to be special rules for sniper rifles.

A sniper rifle is merely a rifle that is being used by a sniper. There are certain characteristics preferred by snipers, and certain rifles may meet r be designed those qualities, but that does not make them sniper rifles.

I do think there needs to be special rules for long ranged precsision fire and rules for armour penetration and probably some rules for lining the two - but no rules specfically for sniper rifles.

[runebeo]

I'm would like sniper bonuses like a critical hit on a natural 16 to 20 and stun effect for 1 melee round. Snipers are almost useless the way they are now it take way too many shots to bring down creatures like gargoyles.

[The Galactus Kid]

There will be no edit to the Sniper skill in the official Errata for RUE. If its something that the particular GM decides to do, then thats fine.

In the real world, a sniper is patient. A sniper waits for the shot. Just because you can't penetrate the armor of the helmet doesn't mean you can't wait for them to take the armor OFF or get our of the armored vehicle. This is often overlooked by the average gamer.

[grandmaster z0b]

I used to think all Sniper rifles were underpowered, however even today a sniper will rarely shoot at an officer with a helmet on unless they have a clear shot at the gap at the neck between the helmet and the jacket.

So a sniper in Rifts would probably sit in wait in a position where he/she can hit an officer when they take their helmet or armour off. In that case 4d6 MD is more than enough.

As I use a 1 MD = 10 SDC and armour rating style in my games this is even less of an issue as a good sniper can hit a gap

[Jefffar]

I used to think all Sniper rifles were underpowered, however even today a sniper will rarely shoot at an officer with a helmet on unless they have a clear shot at the gap at the neck between the helmet and the jacket.

Actually, snipers don't bother with a headshot unless they are at close range anyway. At long range, the dispersion of the shot is larger than a human's head. Better to produce a potentially fatal wound in the torso than to send a bullet past someone's ear.

Yes a sniper hunting a specific target would rather wait until the armour is off - but most snipers don't have the luxary of that much time. They have to take the best shot in the available circumstances - especially during police and battlefield sniping.

I am in favour of a properly trianed sniper getting a damage bonus or aneasier crtical strike chance in addition to their bonuses to strike - but there is no need to apply special rules to the weapon itself.

[Danger]

The topic is as follows. Should sniper rifles be capable of one shot one kill attacks in the setting of RIFTS earth when dealing with a fully armored opponent.

Not only NO, but Heck NO!
The entire point of armor is so that you can't be blown away by some schmuck with a rifle in the first place. Sniping rifles that could reliably kill a fully armored opponent in a single shot would make armor obsolete.

The job of a sniper is to shoot from an unseen location. The current (and traditional) preference is for one-hit/one-kill, but things don't work that way in Rifts, and they shouldn't.
Snipers can still be fun and deadly without blasting through heavy armor in a single shot, but armor can't be fun if it can be taken out in a single hit.

Is the 4D6 MD of many sniper rifles to low for a weapon to be considered a sniper rifle

The damage is just fine. A 4d6 MD laser is already more powerful than any other laser rifle damage. Average is 2d6, with 3d6 on the high end. 4d6 for a single shot is superb.

Is the average range of sniper rifles to low.

Not that I know of. What IS the average range of sniper rifles in Rifts Earth?
Ideally, I suppose I would prefer 4000'-5000'. Maybe 6000' for a top-of-the-line model that was either very large or that had reduced damage.

KC outlines my opinions about this subject very nicely.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm would like sniper bonuses like a critical hit on a natural 16 to 20 and stun effect for 1 melee round. Snipers are almost useless the way they are now it take way too many shots to bring down creatures like gargoyles.

"Not being able to kill Gargoyles in a couple of shots" and "useless" are two completely different things.
Not everybody fights gargoyles all the time.
Snipers are plenty useful, if you know when, where, and how to use them.

[Killer Cyborg]

In the real world, a sniper is patient. A sniper waits for the shot. Just because you can't penetrate the armor of the helmet doesn't mean you can't wait for them to take the armor OFF or get our of the armored vehicle. This is often overlooked by the average gamer.

Exactly!


Against natural MDC creatures, snipers can still work. Just pick them apart one piece at a time.
Hide for a while, then shoot them in the head. Or the eye. Or blast off a limb.
It may not kill them, but it will definitely do damage. If you take a piece of them off (limb, eye, etc), then it will make them that much easier to take out next time you strike.
Hit and run tactics. Shoot, then hide, then shoot again.

[Thinyser]

I'm thinking along the same lines as some others here like DeadBoy...**EDIT** and KC... sorry didn't see your Advanced sniper skill when i did this just saw DB's and thought it was too math intensive... your's is very elegant and I like it about as much as mine

I think that the sniper skill giving the ability to do a few extra things is a better way of doing it than giving the guns higher damage as then you dont have everybody running around with big guns abusing their damage capacity (this ought to make Killer Cyborg happy )

Here are my ideas:
Add a Critical shot to the list of "normal, aimed, called" list. This critical shot does 2x damage because the sniper knows the certian places on suits of armor or MDC creatures that are likely to be "weaker".

Normal shot take one action (1)
Aimed shots take another action (1+1)
Called shots take another action (1+1+1)
Critical shots take another action (1+1+1+1)

So for four actions they get a critical shot.

Make the bonues to strike from the Sniper skill "natural" so that they count towards being a critical hit. This can be used with any aimed, called or critical shot.

Next make it so that with any rifle capable of single shots they get a critical hit on a "natural" 18-20, starting at 5th level.

So if the sniper uses 4 actions he knows he will get a critical shot (x2 damage). The sniper gets a +2 from his sniper skill and this is considered natural so if he rolls a 18 this "natural +2" makes it a "natural 20" and is also a critical hit (x3). If the sniper is 5th level or higher they could roll a 16 and with their "natural +2" they would get a "natural 18" and this would be high enough to count as a critical hit making it even easier to get that x3 modifyer.

With the use of a 1d4x10 MD rifle capable of single shots this can make one shot kills a real posibility for may armors especially if you aim your called critical shot at their helmet.

[gelidus]

In the real world, a sniper is patient. A sniper waits for the shot. Just because you can't penetrate the armor of the helmet doesn't mean you can't wait for them to take the armor OFF or get our of the armored vehicle. This is often overlooked by the average gamer.

Exactly!


Against natural MDC creatures, snipers can still work. Just pick them apart one piece at a time.
Hide for a while, then shoot them in the head. Or the eye. Or blast off a limb.
It may not kill them, but it will definitely do damage. If you take a piece of them off (limb, eye, etc), then it will make them that much easier to take out next time you strike.
Hit and run tactics. Shoot, then hide, then shoot again.

Two hours latter: Croutched behind a rock nearly one mile away, The thing that you have been hunting is unaware of you once more. You had blow its left arm off at the shoulder with your last shot..This next one was going to take out its leg if all went well.. You raise your rifel...look into your scope...and its arm has grown back.......crap....Welcome to Rifts

[shadrak]

Look, I just think a canon rule should be created. If its not, I am not going to discontinue house rules. I mean, I just had a character sneek up behind a grackle tooth rip out his throat with a vibro-blade. I don't care that the damage wasn't that great...unless someone comes out with a book on DBee physiology, I am going to assume that slicing through arteries will kill the grackle tooth. If the PC gets a successful critical hit on the grackletooth's head at 1000', I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. After all, with MDC there is no hit point 'death strike', so unless I don't want the NPC dead, that NPC is dead. Even if I need him alive, that NPC is not going to be doing anything for quite some time.

[shadrak]

well, if they have 100 mdc, a critical strike may kill them, since the head would have 20% of the main bodies mdc(don't remember the rules), and the throat would be less than that...

I might take a knife or two (or, in some cases, 20) to the chest and survive. A knife to the face may not penetrate my skull. Unless my assailant is completely incompetant, a knife to my throat will kill me.

MDC, unlike SDC and Hit Points, doesn't allow for the "death strike" which, in all honesty, is necessary.

Look at it this way, I may want to knock someone unconcious, but if I have to follow the rules, I may just beat them until I kill them.

[Shiva7]

I have started this thread not because of any problem i have with the way that sniper rifles work in rifts but because of a discussion in another thread on the devastator.

The topic is as follows. Should sniper rifles be capable of one shot one kill attacks in the setting of RIFTS earth when dealing with a fully armored opponent.
Is the 4D6 MD of many sniper rifles to low for a weapon to be considered a sniper rifle
Is the average range of sniper rifles to low.

Hopefully this thread will bring up some good discusion on this topic and help to keep other boards cleared up for their original purpose.

The entire combat system is lacking the necessary rules to accomodate such attacks, but I do not believe that sniper weapons, nor sniper training should get extraordinary special rules to allow for one-shot-one-kill.

Sniper weapons are more precise, but not necessarily more powerful, and while sniper training does help greatly, it should not create a situation that allows a sniper to bypass armour when nobody else can.

[shadrak]

*sigh*, unfortunately, the whole palladium system treats armor as a layer of protection that must be sand blasted away...if an opponent is in heavy armor, I am not going to try to destroy his armor, I am going to try to find a weapon that will penetrate his armor and damage him inside.

When an opponent is wearing chain mail and you keep slashing him with a knife and it bounces harmlessly off, it is time to get a stilleto. Since MDC armor does not have an AR, nor do MDC creatures have Hit Points, it becomes exceptionally difficult to subdue a sentry in a stealthy manner.

Now, in Rifts Canada, a Headhunter assassin can force a vibroblade THROUGH a helmet. It looks really good. Unfortunately, the sentry is not wearing environmental armor, so he could have just slashed his throat out.

Everyone says "well, just wait until the NPC takes his helmet or armor off". Unfortunately, the way the armor is written, no one needs to take it off except to **** or sleep. There are very few restrictions on it, and restrictions that are on it are restrictions to skills like prowl and physical skills. Armor, at least armor that restrict movement in this way, is likely to slow you down (even if you train in it constantly). It is likely to make you slower. That should result in combat penalties. These combat penalties should encourage characters to take certain peices of it off. It is a rare soldier who enjoys wearing his kevlar, and it is a rare soldier who finds he wants to wear a full set of IBA.

Characters will sweat in their armor, it will get very dirty, which should result in an additional penalty for characters unused to being dirty. Yet, GM's will keep NPC's in armor for the duration of a session.

[Danger]

To me, the change for snipers is not an issue of power, it is a way to distinguish snipers from regular marksmen. Maybe a special sniper OCC with special sniper abilities is more appropriate than a change in the sniper skill itself. My issue though is that a sniper is different than a mercenary with really good aim, it is someone with special training in marksmenship. This is why many countries have specialized sniper tarining institutions.

The problem is, that when you try to apply that to a game system, it becomes an issue of power.

[rat_bastard]

For me the benafit of sniping is deciding where you hit rather than how powerful your weapon is. Having a sniper rifle that deals 50 mdc on average would allow for more one hit kills but it would also make a overly powerful weapon that creeps the power up too much. Instead of ***** that a person cannot be killed in one hit because he is wearing heavy full enviromental armor, look into shooting his head, leg or arm. instead o ***** about how you cannot take down that robot vehicle with one shot, just blow its legs out from under it, you destroy its main gun.

[Thinyser]

Just as a point, how many weapons out there could actually kill a gargoyle in one or two hits. Even the boom gun cant wipe out a gargoyle in 1 hit. A nisper rifle that could do such a thing would be ludacris (u know, the rapper)

If you need more power in sniper rifle, go get the NE sniper rifle. If memory serves me it 2d4x10 or something insane like that.

Right and the drawbacks of high cost of the weapon itself and not having (relitivly) cheap and convient ammo, not to mention being killed on sight by the CS if the see you have Naruni gear, would make it so that not everybody and his dog is runnig around with these abusing that massive damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

Against natural MDC creatures, snipers can still work. Just pick them apart one piece at a time.
Hide for a while, then shoot them in the head. Or the eye. Or blast off a limb.
It may not kill them, but it will definitely do damage. If you take a piece of them off (limb, eye, etc), then it will make them that much easier to take out next time you strike.
Hit and run tactics. Shoot, then hide, then shoot again.

Two hours latter: Croutched behind a rock nearly one mile away, The thing that you have been hunting is unaware of you once more. You had blow its left arm off at the shoulder with your last shot..This next one was going to take out its leg if all went well.. You raise your rifel...look into your scope...and its arm has grown back.......crap....Welcome to Rifts

One of the keys to combat in any form is to know what you're up against.

Snipers, like anybody else, should be careful not to bite off more than they can chew. Regardless of the people out there who think that snipers should be able to chew anything...

[Killer Cyborg]

Characters will sweat in their armor, it will get very dirty, which should result in an additional penalty for characters unused to being dirty. Yet, GM's will keep NPC's in armor for the duration of a session.

Not good GMs, not if it makes sense for the context.
Sure, a sentry isn't likely to take off his armor while on duty, but he'll take it off some time.

If, on the other hand, the player is sitting unobserved for a whole day or more and the NPCs never take off their armor, then the GM is not doing his job (assuming that the NPCs have to sleep, urinate, eat, etc, like normal people).

(Although EBA is essentially air conditioned, so it won't get too hot in there. Really, it would work the opposite; people would be more comfortable with their armor on most of the time, claustraphobia and bulk aside)

[Thinyser]

At least some other posters are seeing the massive problem with the concept of one shot one kill. If this type of weapon was redily available why would anyone ever not be a sniper in rifts the gargoyle and broadkill would not be a menace and tolkeen probably would not have fallen since with snipers and magic would be a great combo the cs armor would have been useless.

Oh I don't see a problem wiht one shot one kill for many things, even armored things... I just dont think it should be happeing the majority time.

Armor is meant to reduce the likelyhood of one shot kills IMO not eliminate it totally. Bullet "proof" vests arnt 100% protection (and i'm not just talking about the parts of the body they dont cover) as they can't stop all projectiles all the time, thats why they are't truly "bullet proof" just bullet resistant.

MDC creatures and MDC armor clad persons, in most cases, souldn't be able to be "one shotted" by the average gun, weilded by the average grunt. However a strong weapon in the hands of a highly trained sniper who knows that if he puts the shot in the nostril of that big MDC SOB, or in the air exchage port on the back of that suit of armor (and has the skill to make the shot) a one shot kill on a MDC creature or armored person is IMO a possiblity though it should'n happen every time even if hte perosn has the skills and the weapons... there does need to be a certain amount of chance involved.

[shadrak]

Beyond the whole "one shot, one kill" issue, there is an underlying flaw, not just with sniper weapons, but with weapons and the called and aimed shot in general. What incentive do I have to target an opponent's leg or arm or searchlight or weapon if said item has so much MDC that hitting it once is not sufficient? If I blast your laser rifle with my laser rifle and I do 20 pts of MD, you shouldn't be able to use it. If I hit your PA in the knee, you shoudn't be able to run. If I hit your jetpack, you shouldn't be able to fly.

All of these secondary systems have so much MDC that it is virtually impossible (or at least unreasonable) to justify targeting them. I shouldn't have to destroy the entire MDC of a weapon to render it inoperable, and just because it is inoperable doesn't mean that it should be unrepairable.

This is why it is so hard to recover weapons and armor on the RIFTs battlefield...you have to destroy your enemy (and his arms and armor) to defeat him.

[shadrak]

It is not inconceivable to produce a weapon of immense power for sniping purposes. It has been done for rifts in the past (see Phase World Sourcebook, South America 2 and Rifter 12). It would be very possible to create a laser with a capacitor system that would allow for an aimed blast with 3 or 4 times the damage potential of a normal blast. However, every time a sniper rifle is written into the game, it is written as a normal rifle. This is part of the problem you all have with using them...you are afraid a character will kill off every NPC in a 10 mile radius with their God Gun. Well, a weapon this powerful, while possible, should have certain restrictions. It shoud have a recharge rate. There should be a potential for overheating and malfunction. It shouldn't allow for very many shots/eclip. Their should be a degree of inefficiency...for example, a blast that does 2x the damage should take three or four times the amount of energy to generate.

The type of sniper rifle I am asking for is either a laser that does 6D6-1D6x10 MD once or twice per melee, a sniper phase rifle or some sort of large calibur rail/gravity gun weapon capable of transfering kinetic energy from the round to armored individual (5D6 or 6D6 shoud be sufficient). Once again, the energy draw would prohibit regular use and firing in a "regular" or urban combat situation (running toward the enemy firing as you move) should be penalized.

[Thinyser]

Beyond the whole "one shot, one kill" issue, there is an underlying flaw, not just with sniper weapons, but with weapons and the called and aimed shot in general. What incentive do I have to target an opponent's leg or arm or searchlight or weapon if said item has so much MDC that hitting it once is not sufficient? If I blast your laser rifle with my laser rifle and I do 20 pts of MD, you shouldn't be able to use it. If I hit your PA in the knee, you shoudn't be able to run. If I hit your jetpack, you shouldn't be able to fly.

All of these secondary systems have so much MDC that it is virtually impossible (or at least unreasonable) to justify targeting them. I shouldn't have to destroy the entire MDC of a weapon to render it inoperable, and just because it is inoperable doesn't mean that it should be unrepairable.

This is why it is so hard to recover weapons and armor on the RIFTs battlefield...you have to destroy your enemy (and his arms and armor) to defeat him.

If you want to recover weapons and (the majority) of armor there is one thing you can do...
Headshots...
lots and lots of headshots.

I agree with you that most hand held guns and peronal jetpacks and smaller stuff like this should be able to be taken out of commision with minimal damage. The tricky part should be hitting them in the first place (ie the aimed called shot) not the fact that they have to be totally destroyed in order to make them stop working.

[shadrak]

And we are not jsut talking about killing the target. We just need to even the odds for technology heavy adventurers...magic users can use agony or befuddle to reduce an opponent's ability to fight. A tech character should have that same opportunity.

[shadrak]

What I am saying is you should be able to shoot a guy in the leg and have him feel it...a movement penalty...in the arm and he gets a strike penalty...in the head...loses initiative and an attack, etc.

[Thinyser]

Here's what I came up with for a Sniper O.C.C.

Sniper O.C.C.

Then sniper is a dedicated warrior trained in the arts of marksmanship and stalking. Their abilities far exceed the norm for a traditionally trained marksman. They spend months learning, and over a year perfecting, their craft. The traditional method of slow stalking by staying low and moving slow is one of the first things taught to the potential sniper. Potential snipers are chosen for their innate marksmanship from the ranks and then taught the other skills needed to become an independent force on the battle field.

Special O.C.C. abilities of the sniper.

The sniper has extensive training of where the most vulnerable spots on a suit or armor or creature might be. These include but are not limited to: visors, eyes, ears, gas exchange ports, joints, and seams. The Sniper is trained to specifically target these weak-spots so as to do maximum damage. This is reflected in what is called the “Critical Shot” It’s a step further up the ladder of “normal shot, aimed shot, aimed called shot”. All “crit shots” are an aimed called shot but cost an extra attack (for a total of 4) spent to analyze the best spot to target. Generally the crit shot targets a very small area and requires a 16 or higher roll to hit. The GM may increase or decrease this target number as he/she feels appropriate however nothing lower than a 14 should be considered for a crit shot unless the area of weakness is larger than a dinner plate. When successful a crit shot does double (2x) damage to the target.

Furthermore snipers all have the sniping skill to start, but the bonus of +2 to strike on aimed shots is considered “natural” so on a roll of 18 or higher the sniper is considered to have made a “critical hit”. Critical hits on a normal aimed shot do double (2x) damage. If the sniper has set up his crit shot, and also rolls 18 or above to land a critical hit, the damage is triple (3x) normal damage!

Starting at 5th level the sniper’s critical hit requirement goes down by one (1) place for every 5 levels, applied anytime they are firing a single shot rifle. Its 19 at 5th, 18th at 10th, and down to a minimum of a natural 17 required to get a critical hit at 15th level. This is in conjunction with their sniper skill adding a natural +2 on all aimed shots. This in effect gives the 5th level sniper the ability to roll a 17 on the die and get a critical hit when using a single shot rifle. (17+2=19)

Special stalking capabilities are also taught to all snipers. This is reflected in a significant prowl bonus when using these specific techniques. If the sniper has taken the time to integrate local foliage into his stalking suit (and makes his camouflage roll) he will gain a +10% to his prowl ability. If he moves at, or slower than, the rate of 1 foot per melee (4’ per minute) he receives an additional bonus of +50% to prowl.

Lastly the true difference of a sniper and a normal marksman is the ability of the sniper to hit their mark precisely where they want to. This is reflected in the use of The Sharpshooter's "Called" Shot: Rules. The sniper receives a bonuses: +1 to strike with a P.P. 18 and for every additional three (3) P.P. points above 18, but the bonuses are only applicable when a single shot rifle is used and this special aimed called shot uses an additional melee attack/action. It is only applicable on “aimed called shots” and is NOT considered a “natural” bonus so it does not count toward a critical hit, but may be combined with the “critical shot” to increase the likelyhood of hitting the aimed for weak area. In which case the shot takes five (5) actions (normal attack + aimed + called + Crit + Sharpshooter)

Attribute Requirements: I.Q. 12or higher, M.E. 12 or higher, P.E. 10 or higher, P.P. 18 or higher (only those with the “steadiest hands” are eligible for sniper training).
Note: Snipers must be able to remain motionless for hours at a stretch so juicers, crazies, and D-bees like quick flex aliens are never considered for sniper training.

O.C.C. Skills:
Sniper (+2 bonus counts as “natural”)
Radio: Basic (+ 10%)
Literacy (+10%)
Prowl (+10%)
Intelligence (+10%)
Camoflage (+10)
Jury-rig (+10%)
Land Navigation (+20%)
Lore: Demon and Monster (+10%)
Running
Wilderness survival (+15%)
Tracking (+10%)
W.P. Energy Pistol
W.P. Energy Rifle
Hand to Hand: Expert
Hand to Hand: Expert can be changed to Hand to Hand: Martial
Arts at the cost of one "other" skill (or assassin if an evil alignment).

O.C.C. Related Skills: Select 12 other skills, but at least four must
be selected from espionage. Plus select two additional skills at level
three, two at level six, one at level nine, and one at level twelve.
All new skills start at level one proficiency.
Communications: Any (+10%)
Domestic: Any
Electrical: Basic electronics only (+ 5%)
Espionage: Any (+ 10%)
Mechanical: Automotive only ( + 5%)
Medical: Paramedic only
Military: Any (+15%)
Physical: Any, except acrobatics.
Pilot: Any
Pilot Related: Any ( + 5%)
Rogue: Any
Science: Math and chemistry only (+ 10%)
Technical: Any (5%)
W.P.: Any
Wilderness: Any

Secondary Skills: The character also gets to select eight secondary
skills from the previous list. These are additional areas of knowledge
that do not get the advantage of the bonus listed in parentheses ().
All secondary skills start at the base skill level. Also, skills are
limited (any, only, none) as previously indicated in the list.

Standard Equipment: A suit of personalized, heavy, mega-damage
body armor, including Coalition armor. A suit of light M.D. body
armor, a set of dress clothing, a set of black clothing for covert
night operations, and a Ghillie camouflage suit fitted to wear over the light armor.
Also a gas mask and air filter, tinted goggles, hatchet
for cutting wood, knife (or two), ancient weapon of choice, modern
handgun and single shot capable rifle with a scope (both probably energy weapons) and 5 extra ammo clips for each, first-aid kit with extra bandages and antiseptic, suture thread
and painkiller, tent, knapsack, back pack, two canteens,
emergency food rations (6 week supply), and
some personal items.

Character may at GM’s discretion have a hoverbike as transportation. Otherwise a horse is standard for the sniper’s starting transportation.

Money: The character starts off with 2D6x 100 in credit, and has a
black market item that will garner another lD6x 1000 credits. As
always, money can be spent immediately on additional equipment
or saved.

Cybernetics and bionics: Select two augmentations from cybernetics
(any category is available though recommended choices are Multi Optic Eyes and Amplified hearing).

[shadrak]

Well, obviously a laser is not going to give a penalty (which is why I prefer higher damage lasers), but a plasma blast or rail blast certainly should. Anything with the kinetic force to damage MDC armor should do something to the 150lbs character wearing it...it should shock him or stagger him.

[Thinyser]

I like it, though I think that the PP requirement should be significantly lower.

I purposefully wanted it that high for 3 reasons:

1. It fits with the "only exceptional marksman are accepted" motif.

2. It guarantees that if the O.C.C. is taken that the character will get at least a +1 from the use of the Sharpshooting portion of their special abilities.

and as a balancing factor...

3. It keeps it from being available to every Tom, D!ck, or Harry that wants to have the ability to (potentially) "one shot" people in MDC armor. (Useable by the GM as a way to say "sorry but your attributes don't meet up with the requirements for this specialized training..." rather than a flat "No... because I said so")

It could be lowered by the GM but I think its good right where its at.

[Jefffar]

What about gunfighter and gunslinger pp numbers?

[Thinyser]

What about gunfighter and gunslinger pp numbers?

What do you mean?

If you want you can answer here

[Thinyser]

Here is a thread I started for This O.C.C.

[Danger]

Just as a point, how many weapons out there could actually kill a gargoyle in one or two hits. Even the boom gun cant wipe out a gargoyle in 1 hit. A sniper rifle that could do such a thing would be ludacris (u know, the rapper)

If you need more power in sniper rifle, go get the NE sniper rifle. If memory serves me it 2d4x10 or something insane like that.

A sniper rifle that does anywhere equivalent damage to a boom gun (which is about what you would need to one shot kill someone in armor) is, well, dumb.

[Jefffar]

Well, the NE-75H "Shoulder Cannon" from the Phase World Source Book isn't quite like the boom gun, but it does 2D4X10+20 with a single shot. Only a range of 6000 feet and uses special rounds, but it is from a high tech producer like Naruni. Probably one of the best actual sniper rifles in the game.

Actually, it's not a sniper rifle, it's an anti-materiel rifle, much like the .50 caliber (and up) rifles that have started to pop up in several of hte worlds armies. It's designed to defeat a target that is otherwise impervious to normal infanry weapons, at long ranges, with precision diret fire.

[Thinyser]

The purpose of M.D.C. armor is to stop the person wearing it from being mortally wounded in combat.

I disagree, the purpose of any sort of armor is to reduce the risk of being killed/ mortally wounded, not stop it completly.

No armor is 100% effective against all threats. Even the best armors on Earth (the british Challenger's and the M1's armor) CAN be breached if the proper force is applied at the right spot. Its not easy but it can be done.

Same with modern Balistic vests. They are known as "bullet proof vests" even though all they are is "bullet resistant". They stop most projectiles (not all), but they cannot even stop a knife thrust unless specifically designed to do so.

Armor can be defeated with the appropriate force to the appropriate "weak" spot. MDC body armor should not be any different IMO.

[Killer Cyborg]

The purpose of M.D.C. armor is to stop the person wearing it from being mortally wounded in combat.

I disagree, the purpose of any sort of armor is to reduce the risk of being killed/ mortally wounded, not stop it completly.

No armor is 100% effective against all threats. Even the best armors on Earth (the british Challenger's and the M1's armor) CAN be breached if the proper force is applied at the right spot. Its not easy but it can be done.

Same with modern Balistic vests. They are known as "bullet proof vests" even though all they are is "bullet resistant". They stop most projectiles (not all), but they cannot even stop a knife thrust unless specifically designed to do so.

Armor can be defeated with the appropriate force to the appropriate "weak" spot. MDC body armor should not be any different IMO.

Then make up some house rules for it.
Becuase the official rules don't reflect your idea of how things should be.

Two simple house rules for armor penetration (use either):
1. Anytime somebody is hit, they take the same damage in SDC as their armor takes in MD.
2. Any single shot that inflicts more than 25% of the current MDC of the armor (or total, if you prefer) is assumed to get through the armor and to hit the person inside. For example, if a person has armor with 100 MDC and they are hit for 26 MD, the person inside the armor takes 1 MD worth of damage (likely to be fatal).

[Killer Cyborg]

Now that is a good idea. it would fix the problem that shadrak has with the current rules set and not be to over powering although it doesn't help with his gripe about not being able to one shot one kill naturally mdc beings(which i think is completely ridiculous by the way)

A called shot to a critical area can inflict triple damage to MDC beings.
With the right gun, that increases the odds significantly.

Or just launch a volley of missiles at it.
Or use the burst/spray rules from the main book.

[Thinyser]

The purpose of M.D.C. armor is to stop the person wearing it from being mortally wounded in combat.

I disagree, the purpose of any sort of armor is to reduce the risk of being killed/ mortally wounded, not stop it completely.

No armor is 100% effective against all threats. Even the best armors on Earth (the british Challenger's and the M1's armor) CAN be breached if the proper force is applied at the right spot. Its not easy but it can be done.

Same with modern Ballistic vests. They are known as "bullet proof vests" even though all they are is "bullet resistant". They stop most projectiles (not all), but they cannot even stop a knife thrust unless specifically designed to do so.

Armor can be defeated with the appropriate force to the appropriate "weak" spot. MDC body armor should not be any different IMO.

Then make up some house rules for it.
Because the official rules don't reflect your idea of how things should be.

Sure they do... Well they did before the GI JOE rule...

The Appropriate amount of force is one point more damage than the armor has left in that location. So you aim at a weak spot, say the helmet (it has 50 MDC), and you need to do 51 MD to breach it and kill the wearer. Is this easy to do? Nope, but it is not impossible (assuming you don't play with the GI Joe rule)

IMO the fact that the "last bit of armor rule" was added is one of the biggest mistakes made in RUE. NO armor can survive any and all attacks with the occupant unharmed.

Two simple house rules for armor penetration (use either):
1. Anytime somebody is hit, they take the same damage in SDC as their armor takes in MD.
2. Any single shot that inflicts more than 25% of the current MDC of the armor (or total, if you prefer) is assumed to get through the armor and to hit the person inside. For example, if a person has armor with 100 MDC and they are hit for 26 MD, the person inside the armor takes 1 MD worth of damage (likely to be fatal).

Those work too... but thats not what my point was about.

Armor is there to prevent most attacks from killing you in one hit, but not eliminate this risk completely. If you get hit in the helmet by a boomgun you will likely buy the farm, and thats the way it should be.

[Killer Cyborg]

The purpose of M.D.C. armor is to stop the person wearing it from being mortally wounded in combat.

I disagree, the purpose of any sort of armor is to reduce the risk of being killed/ mortally wounded, not stop it completely.

No armor is 100% effective against all threats. Even the best armors on Earth (the british Challenger's and the M1's armor) CAN be breached if the proper force is applied at the right spot. Its not easy but it can be done.

Same with modern Ballistic vests. They are known as "bullet proof vests" even though all they are is "bullet resistant". They stop most projectiles (not all), but they cannot even stop a knife thrust unless specifically designed to do so.

Armor can be defeated with the appropriate force to the appropriate "weak" spot. MDC body armor should not be any different IMO.

Then make up some house rules for it.
Because the official rules don't reflect your idea of how things should be.

Sure they do... Well they did before the GI JOE rule...

The Appropriate amount of force is one point more damage than the armor has left in that location. So you aim at a weak spot, say the helmet (it has 50 MDC), and you need to do 51 MD to breach it and kill the wearer. Is this easy to do? Nope, but it is not impossible (assuming you don't play with the GI Joe rule)

You seemed to be saying something different.
Nevermind.

IMO the fact that the "last bit of armor rule" was added is one of the biggest mistakes made in RUE. NO armor can survive any and all attacks with the occupant unharmed.

You're supposed to use common sense with the rule, and if enough damage is done to the armor then the person inside can and should die.
(Whatever "common sense" is in this context).

Armor is there to prevent most attacks from killing you in one hit, but not eliminate this risk completely. If you get hit in the helmet by a boomgun you will likely buy the farm, and thats the way it should be.

I can agree with that.

[Nightmaster]

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Two simple house rules for armor penetration (use either):
1. Anytime somebody is hit, they take the same damage in SDC as their armor takes in MD.
2. Any single shot that inflicts more than 25% of the current MDC of the armor (or total, if you prefer) is assumed to get through the armor and to hit the person inside. For example, if a person has armor with 100 MDC and they are hit for 26 MD, the person inside the armor takes 1 MD worth of damage (likely to be fatal).

Wrong KC. Armor must give the person inside a chance of survival.

The best way is to give the armor the ability to resist some level of damage before its is breached by the attack. That factor could be called "Stoping Power" or simply SP. It could be determined by dividing the MDC of the armor by 10 and round down.

Ex. the CA-4 Dead Boy armor have the following MDC by location:
Head - 70
Arms - 60
Legs - 80
main Body - 100

Using the rules above, the SP of those location would be:
Head - 7
Arms - 6
Legs - 8
main Body - 10

With that determined then the next step.

Every attack that does more damage to that location than the SP value would damage the person inside. The damage would never be MDC but instead SDC. The amount would be 2 times the number of points of damage caused by the attack that were over the SP. So if someone inside a CA-4 is hit by a attack of 15 MD in the arm, the amount of damage received would be 18 SDC.

This by no mean state that the MDC of the armor is changed. The MDC of the armor is the same, just that it function against anything except explosions and blunt attacks is changed. Against Explosions and Blunt attacks the armor is the same.

This allows for situations like the one showed in an ilustration in the CWC on page 198 that show a group of CS soldiers in a firefight in some part of the Burbs and out of the way of shots is a Officer/female soldier woulded with the left hand over his/her belly with signs of being shoot and another CS soldier opening a first aid kit to help him/her.

[Killer Cyborg]

Two simple house rules for armor penetration (use either):
1. Anytime somebody is hit, they take the same damage in SDC as their armor takes in MD.
2. Any single shot that inflicts more than 25% of the current MDC of the armor (or total, if you prefer) is assumed to get through the armor and to hit the person inside. For example, if a person has armor with 100 MDC and they are hit for 26 MD, the person inside the armor takes 1 MD worth of damage (likely to be fatal).

Wrong KC.

Dude, I'm suggesting two possible house rules.
That's not something that I can be "wrong" about.

[Thinyser]

The purpose of M.D.C. armor is to stop the person wearing it from being mortally wounded in combat.

I disagree, the purpose of any sort of armor is to reduce the risk of being killed/ mortally wounded, not stop it completely.

No armor is 100% effective against all threats. Even the best armors on Earth (the british Challenger's and the M1's armor) CAN be breached if the proper force is applied at the right spot. Its not easy but it can be done.

Same with modern Ballistic vests. They are known as "bullet proof vests" even though all they are is "bullet resistant". They stop most projectiles (not all), but they cannot even stop a knife thrust unless specifically designed to do so.

Armor can be defeated with the appropriate force to the appropriate "weak" spot. MDC body armor should not be any different IMO.

Then make up some house rules for it.
Because the official rules don't reflect your idea of how things should be.

Sure they do... Well they did before the GI JOE rule...

The Appropriate amount of force is one point more damage than the armor has left in that location. So you aim at a weak spot, say the helmet (it has 50 MDC), and you need to do 51 MD to breach it and kill the wearer. Is this easy to do? Nope, but it is not impossible (assuming you don't play with the GI Joe rule)

You seemed to be saying something different.
Nevermind.

OK

IMO the fact that the "last bit of armor rule" was added is one of the biggest mistakes made in RUE. NO armor can survive any and all attacks with the occupant unharmed.

You're supposed to use common sense with the rule, and if enough damage is done to the armor then the person inside can and should die.
(Whatever "common sense" is in this context).

Yeah but lets say that I do 51 MD aganist a 50 MDC helmet by all rights the person inside SHOULD be dead but the "last bit of armor" rule protects them. Untill there is a clear cut off "common sense" tells me that 1 point of MD getting though is plenty to kill the person inside.

What is your common sense cut off? Exceeding what the armor has left by 10 MD?... 20 MD?... 30 MD?... 50 MD?

The example uses a peice of armor that has 3 MDC left and gets hit with a 21 MD plasma bolt... That exceeds the 3 MDC by 18 MD and yet the rule uses this as the example, so it evidently means that this is an "appropriate" use of this rule. IMO... maybe and this is a BIG MAYBE... a peice of armor should give an extra 10 points of protection on that last hit. But 3 points of MDC absorbing 21 points of MD is Bull$#!+.

If I were to play with any form of that rule It would be completly redone.

First I would make a clear cut off for the maximum amount of bleed over that could be absorbed. This would be set at 1/20th of the full damage capacity of the undamaged suit. So a 100 MDC suit could soak up a max of 5 MD bleed over on a final hit and still have the wearer survive.

Secondly I would say that if the armor has 10% or less of its total MDC left it cannot absorb more than a single point of bleed over. So if a 100 MDC suit has been whittled down to 10 MDC it can take a hit of 11 MD and protect its wearer from death, 12 kills the person. While a 100 MDC suit that has 11 MDC left can take a hit of 16 and save the wearer.

Armor is there to prevent most attacks from killing you in one hit, but not eliminate this risk completely. If you get hit in the helmet by a boomgun you will likely buy the farm, and thats the way it should be.

I can agree with that.

[Nightmaster]

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dude, I'm suggesting two possible house rules.
That's not something that I can be "wrong" about.

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can you please explain? dindt understood you at all