Cosmo Knights and Children

[Alpha 11]

Ok, first question, is it possible for Cosmo Knights to have children and if they can, second question, would they inherit their parents powers, some of their powers, or none at all?

[BookWyrm]

I don't believe that, if the Cosmo-Knights were allowed to have children, they would inheiret any of the parent(s) powers. The Cosmic Forge is what makes them Knights, and service to the Forge precludes all after accepting the status of Knighthood. Besides, doesn't it say that their lifespan is extended to a degree that they would outlive their offspring?

They may have families before the Forge touches them, but I don't believe that anything during service would take priority.

[Braden Campbell]

I would argue that once they are transformed by the Forge, that they leave all mortal trappings behind (unless they Fall). They don't eat, breathe... or have children.

From another angle, becoming a CK is like joining a monastic order. Your life is now 100% dedicated to followign teh tenents of the Cosmic Forge. Whatever personal life you once had, or once thought you were going to have, is no longer accessable.

Just one more thing to think about before you accept the Forge's offer to become a Kinght...

[Greyaxe]

I believe your former life is not mearly left behind but completly for gotten. I would like to play it as dreams and shadows of your former life occasionally creep in but otherwise your life begins when you awaken as a cosmo knight.

[Greyaxe]

I believe your former life is not mearly left behind but completly for gotten. I would like to play it as dreams and shadows of your former life occasionally creep in but otherwise your life begins when you awaken as a cosmo knight.

[Nekira Sudacne]

They can still have children with whatever species they were compatible with to begin with. not that they'd inherent any cosmic power.

[sHaka]

I can see CK's having families, it might even enhance their abilities (mentally not physically) by giving them something close to fight for. I can see why not to, but that doesnt mean it should be precluded.

What happens if you get a CK pregnant?

[Greyaxe]

what leads you te believe that they cant have families? It may be a choice but I dont think its a requirement. Is there any proof of this,canon (boom) or jus logically?

I can see CK's having families, it might even enhance their abilities (mentally not physically) by giving them something close to fight for. I can see why not to, but that doesnt mean it should be precluded.

Page 99 of PW bottom left corner under Becoming a Cosmo Knight the forge will often reveal the risk of loosing ones loved ones as a risk of becoming a Cosmo Knight. This implies that not only to cosmo knights keep their memory of their past life but they need to keep their identities a secret to protect their families. However at the top of the same page their bodies are transformed and can "Pass" as a member of their origional race which suggests they are no longer a member of their origional species but are a species unto themselves. And I suggest incapable of reproduction.

[Nekira Sudacne]

what leads you te believe that they cant have families? It may be a choice but I dont think its a requirement. Is there any proof of this,canon (boom) or jus logically?

I can see CK's having families, it might even enhance their abilities (mentally not physically) by giving them something close to fight for. I can see why not to, but that doesnt mean it should be precluded.

Page 99 of PW bottom left corner under Becoming a Cosmo Knight the forge will often reveal the risk of loosing ones loved ones as a risk of becoming a Cosmo Knight. This implies that not only to cosmo knights keep their memory of their past life but they need to keep their identities a secret to protect their families. However at the top of the same page their bodies are transformed and can "Pass" as a member of their origional race which suggests they are no longer a member of their origional species but are a species unto themselves. And I suggest incapable of reproduction.

I think your reading too much in the "risk loosing your families" line.

Your talking about a class that wanders the galaxy fighting evil. Much like the Soldigers life out at war, they loose touch with their families, sometimes when they return for a visit they find they have moved on.

[Tinker Dragoon]

One could argue that procreation is a biological weakness that is left behind when the character becomes a Cosmo-Knight, but I think that an awful stretch.

If they do retain the ability, exercising it puts the knight in a very sticky situation. Discovery of the relationship could jeapordize the lives of the knight's family, or give a villain the upper hand. Also, if the knight were to abandon his family, or place the needs of his family over those of the galaxy, he could Fall. Then again, these sorts of crises can make a game very interesting.

[Svartalf]

Nothing anywhere says that the Knights of the Forge become barren... on the other hand, the children would be normal members of the Knight's species... you get a knight's Powers by being chosen by the Forge : no other way. Of course, the offspring or descendants of a Knight might have more likelihood of getting chosen, but that's a matter of having the requisite qualities... and moral fiber doesn't run in genetics.

On the other hand, Cosmo Knights don't often have the time to romance and have relationships... and depending on race, hooking up with a member's one one's species might be a problem in itself....

[Nikoli]

From what I've read of the CK's, namely the published stories, when one is chosen byt eh Forge, they had just died. Their families would need the closure of a body to deal with ceremoniously. Nothing suggests they even resemble who they are, I intereperet the Choosing as the Forge takes a willing, noble spirit at the moment of death, offers them the choice. If they accepts, they die and the Forge mold for them a new form of non-flesh so that they may serve the multiverse. If they decline, the Forge restores their body to health and allows them a nother chance at a normal life.

[cornholioprime]

I can see CK's having families, it might even enhance their abilities (mentally not physically) by giving them something close to fight for. I can see why not to, but that doesnt mean it should be precluded.

What happens if you get a CK pregnant?

I like this Question, but let's refine it, shall we??

What happens if a Cosmo Knight is pregnant at the time they are offered the Power??

If the Power alters BOTH Mother and Fetus, I'd hate to be the S.D.C. feller who puts my head in the <Mother's Belly when the Child starts kicking.....

[Alpha 11]

I can see CK's having families, it might even enhance their abilities (mentally not physically) by giving them something close to fight for. I can see why not to, but that doesnt mean it should be precluded.

What happens if you get a CK pregnant?

I like this Question, but let's refine it, shall we??

What happens if a Cosmo Knight is pregnant at the time they are offered the Power??

If the Power alters BOTH Mother and Fetus, I'd hate to be the S.D.C. feller who puts my head in the <Mother's Belly when the Child starts kicking.....

Guy in a doctors office. "So how did you break your jaw?" He, he!

[runebeo]

Sure thay can have kids, but mostly to fallen knights mainly for the back story.

[Greyaxe]

Cosmo knights can not reproduce. They forsake their old life to serve the forge and are transformed into super beings.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Cosmo knights can not reproduce. They forsake their old life to serve the forge and are transformed into super beings.

and children cannot be part of a new life?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Cosmo knights can not reproduce. They forsake their old life to serve the forge and are transformed into super beings.

and children cannot be part of a new life?

You're not a eunich are you?

No.

[Greyaxe]

During the transformation Cosmo knights are metamophisized into a new being comprised of cosmic energy in physical form. They resemble a member of their origional species but are in fact "Cosmo Knights" It may be possible for two cosmo kinghts to bear children. A child of two cosmic beings would be an interesting hook for a cosmic style adventure, but cosmo knights no longer belong to their origional species.

[Nekira Sudacne]

During the transformation Cosmo knights are metamophisized into a new being comprised of cosmic energy in physical form. They resemble a member of their origional species but are in fact "Cosmo Knights" It may be possible for two cosmo kinghts to bear children. A child of two cosmic beings would be an interesting hook for a cosmic style adventure, but cosmo knights no longer belong to their origional species.

Que? Cosmo knights are NOT cosmic beings in physical form. I think you might be confusing them with Blazie aliens from Skraypers.

Cosmo Knights ARE empowered by the forge, but are still physical beings. they can transform into energy for travel, but when that ends they resume normal physical form.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Err... no. they are not. They do not need to eat, breathe or die the way mortals do. You don't see many immortals going around sprouting little brats, do you? Well.... save Zeus that old lecher.

They have the same rate of reproduction as anyone else...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sorry I did not see your post before.

Sea Titans, Gods, Godlings, Demi-Gods, Enlightened Immortals, Companion Immortals...

Sea Titans are not immortals.

Yes they are

[/quote]Gods are immortals and the huge majority of them are childless and prefer to be childless. Spouse and families are a very big investment and potential weakness.[/quote]

that's a matter of choice, not ability which is the question. and gods can most DEFINATLY have children. ask Zeus. Or Hrea for that matter

Godlings are likely people who gained godhood through some exotic methods. They haven't learn that having mortal or semi-deific children can be a very costly thing in the long run.

actually, evidence points to Godlings being the child of a god and a god that hasn't got enough worshipers for full godhood yet

Demi-gods aren't very common at all. They are not supposed to be common.

but there still there, which is all that matters for this argument

Enlightened Immortals are not supposed to have children. I'm Chinese I know. In Chinese mythology, all gods and deities are specifically prevented from having passions and affairs with mortals or immortals.

Palladium enlightened immortals are not Gods, unless they choose to become one at the 7th refinement

Companion Immortals are not true immortals. They are by all account still very much mortal, just in a almost suspended state of aging/living.

True

But alchimal immortals are.

ANd what about humans with the Super Power of immortality (not the mega version)

[Aramanthus]

I agre with Nekira about the Sea Titans, they are immortal.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes they are

My point being that being unable to determine their lifespan does not automatically make one immortal. The figure may be astronomical but it is still finite.

True, but that dosn't mean they arn't true immortals either. Given the evidence, it's more prudent to rule that they are.

that's a matter of choice, not ability which is the question. and gods can most DEFINATLY have children. ask Zeus. Or Hrea for that matter

If you read your books properly, you will noticed that some many years ago, KS has specifically stated that species cannot be inter-bred. If that rule have changed, I do not know of it. However, having sex with a god is a most unusual thing and is always potentially dangerous to the mortal half. Giving birth to the offspring of a god is, needless to say, even deadlier.

In a manner of speaking. However, dragons and Gods clearly states that ALL true gods can breed with ANY being capable of sexual reproduction, regardless of race. Heck, There's even the famous case of Loki giving birth to Odin's six legged horse while transformed into a mare

I am sure Zeus fathered quite a few children through his lecherous liaisons, but I am not sure Hera has any. All these from real world mythological standpoint. Those from various TV series are not accurate.

Well, Splynn Dimenisonal market clearly gives a Demigod NPC that is a child of Zeus, so there's one...

actually, evidence points to Godlings being the child of a god and a god that hasn't got enough worshipers for full godhood yet.

Godlings are beings reaching godhood. As far as I remember (not very well though) children of deities tend to be called demi-gods, as are epic heroes.

close, children of gods and mortals are demigods. children of gods and gods are godlings, on their way to their full power

but there still there, which is all that matters for this argument.

So tell me something, what is the child of a demi-god? quarter-gods?

likely a normal member of that species. not really relevant.

Palladium enlightened immortals are not Gods, unless they choose to become one at the 7th refinement

I never said they were. There is a fine distinction between immortals and gods. The chinese are extremely clear in their mythology on these. We are all very "rank" (status) conscious.

but you only said that in chinese mythology it says Gods cannot have children. your statment did not seem to apply to enlightened immortals as you said.

But alchemy immortals are.

Depends on how you define Alchemy. Emperor Qin, the first emperor of China, tried so very hard to become an immortal by consuming "elixirs", only to die from mercury poisoning in those capsules. (Luckily he never succeed)

In mystic china, it defined it as the same kinds of experiments Emperor Qin preformed, only it was successful.

ANd what about humans with the Super Power of immortality (not the mega version)

Those are immortals. Non-dying freaks of nature. If they hav children, they will likely outlive all their offsprings. If given enough time, a substantial percentage of the earth may even call him/her Father.....

That's why it is better to rule that once one becomes an immortal, there is no possibility of him/her to continue to reproduce.

why? something actually wrong with a lot of hte world calling you Great Grandmother (or so)?

Genuine question.

But as I have emphasized again and again, these are my views. I choose to write them here only as a reference to others who may think likewise. Others who do not, please don't get agitated over simple game rules. If you do not like the rules, just change it to your liking and enjoy the damn game already.

I'm actually not bashing you, i'm just trying to understand your position

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm actually not bashing you, i'm just trying to understand your position

For one, he's tried to apply real world mythology to Palladium games. Which I covered previously.

I'm being polite. Hush

[Nekira Sudacne]

True, but that dosn't mean they arn't true immortals either. Given the evidence, it's more prudent to rule that they are.

If I remember correctly, the books says that the Sea Titans' life span has not been determined. Of course we can interpret it in all those different ways, however it meet our needs.

Acceptable

In a manner of speaking. However, dragons and Gods clearly states that ALL true gods can breed with ANY being capable of sexual reproduction, regardless of race. Heck, There's even the famous case of Loki giving birth to Odin's six legged horse while transformed into a mare

I don't have Dragons and Gods. And that book is a bit out of the way for Rifts. It hasn't got any conversion rules on it yet, no?

Actually, Dragons and Gods itself now has Rifts conversion notes on everything--every god has a section on how to convert them to Rifts and their veiws on Rifts earth, and each power has it's own conversion as well

Well, Splynn Dimenisonal market clearly gives a Demigod NPC that is a child of Zeus, so there's one...

I know, and not at all surprise he came from Zeus.... or was that a she? Didn't one exist in the Mercenary book as well?

it was a she. She's responsible for the infamous picture of a woman battling with splurgorth minions wearing nothing but an ample breastplate and a chain mail thong

likely a normal member of that species. not really relevant.

Blood from a deity is a very powerful thing, even if it were so far diluted.

Yes, and the child would likely inherent above-averge attributes, but it's doubtful they'd inherent the Godling power

but you only said that in chinese mythology it says Gods cannot have children. your statement did not seem to apply to enlightened immortals as you said.

Enlightened Immortals seem only to exist (as far as Rifts is concerned anyway) in Asia, specially China and Japan.

but what does that have to do with breeding or gods? you still havn't explained that yet.

why? something actually wrong with a lot of the world calling you Great Grandmother (or so)?

Genuine question.

No. But it will be troublesome when you find yourself sleeping with one...... and she bears one of your child..... So what would that make thee? Morality question. But if you decides to disregard morality, it will be fine.

So immortals should not be allowed to have children on the off chance they may someday sleep with their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson? I'm sorry, that's not even really a morality question. THe person might as well be your sixth times removed cousin, that dosn't count as incenst by any genetic standards

Also do remember that certain villains take great pains in slaughtering all your bloodline before get to you, to get you all worked up or depressed.

no worse than any other hero with a family, just a LOT more work for the villian

I'm actually not bashing you, i'm just trying to understand your position

thanks. I'm in a normal sitting position right now.

uh...so is that upright or slouched?

[Nekira Sudacne]

it was a she. She's responsible for the infamous picture of a woman battling with splurgorth minions wearing nothing but an ample breastplate and a chain mail thong

Hmm... are we talking about the same pix? hmm...... BTW I always like female clad (scantily) in pieces of armor and torn cloth. No! Not those reasons! It's just so... beautiful.

Indeed it is beautiful

Yes, and the child would likely inherent above-averge attributes, but it's doubtful they'd inherent the Godling power

This much I can agree upon.

but what does that have to do with breeding or gods? you still haven't explained that yet.

Hmm.... not sure anymore... I forgot what it was all about. In Far Eastern mythologies, immortals are considered gods, thought they aren't, and are prohibited from procreating. The "fruits" of such mating would be punished by the Mandate Of The Heaven.

make up your mind? does your mythology conisder them gods or not?

So immortals should not be allowed to have children on the off

chance they may someday sleep with their great-great-great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great- great-great grandson? I'm sorry, that's not even really a morality question. THe person might as well be your sixth times removed cousin, that dosn't count as incenst by any genetic standards

Hmm... I seem to have found the difference between your culture and mine here. Although Chinese used to practice marriages between cousins, it was generally unacceptable. They tend to produce deformed or retarded children.

First cousins, yes, same here. a two times removed cousin is questionable

from fourth time reoved (note, in our language, a "sixth cousin" is "six generations removed", not the sixth child of your father's brother)cousin outwars, they are genetically speaking a stranger (and unless your family keeps in VERY good contact, likely is a total stranger as well

Also, something for you to think about. In time, wouldn't your bloodline occupy all of the planet, eventually?

how? for every child of yours born in a given year, millions more are born that are not relates. if there is only 1 immortal with 10000 other people way back in the day, then while his family will grow to have millions of decendants, there will be BILLIONS not. for every 1 born of his bloodline, there are 9999 familys that are not that grow at the same rate.

[Nekira Sudacne]

make up your mind? does your mythology consider them gods or not?

Hmm.... I don't know how to tell you. I think they are more saints, in the modern sense of the word. Or a godling. So are they considered gods? I think they are almost there, but not just yet. And they can still be easily killed, so I suggest not.

So basically, your saying the immortals a "sacred" or "holy", but not "devine"?

First cousins, yes, same here. a two times removed cousin is questionable

from fourth time removed (note, in our language, a "sixth cousin" is "six generations removed", not the sixth child of your father's brother)cousin outwards, they are genetically speaking a stranger (and unless your family keeps in VERY good contact, likely is a total stranger as well

Hmm... I think Chinese tends to keep contact with their relative no matter how much removed we are, or how many generations apart. However, there were practices that marry cousins not a few century ago.

I guess that's probablly possible sinse you chinese have lived in (roughly) the same area for such a freaking long time.

Here in america, most of the people here moved away from their families in europe, and with the rapid expansion once here the next generations would move away from the next, and with no reliable system of quick communication, a lot of families just plain broke apart. Generally speaking it's rare for someone in america to even know who their second cousins are.

how? for every child of yours born in a given year, millions more are born that are not relates. if there is only 1 immortal with 10000 other people way back in the day, then while his family will grow to have millions of decendants, there will be BILLIONS not. for every 1 born of his bloodline, there are 9999 familys that are not that grow at the same rate.

Yes. That's what I mean. Potentially he/she is a "father" of the planet. You know, like Abraham in the good book.

I think you got it mixed up.

Lets say there are only 10,000 humans in the world a long long time ago.

One of them becomes an immortal.

so you have 1 immortal and 9,999 mortals. lets say for the sake of argument every one of them has 3 children

so that's 3 children of hte immortals line and 29,997 children of hte mortal lines.

so, next generation. our Imortal has 3 more children, and each of his 3 children have three more children, and everyone of every mortal bloodline has 3 children.

so that'd be 12 children of the immortal bloodline and 89,991 mortal children

now, once again, our immortal has lets say 10 children, and each of his current 12 children have 10 children while every mortal bloodline has 3 children each.

The immortal bloodline now has a total of 130 children to it's name, while the mortal bloodlines now have 269,973!

even assuming EVERY child of the immortal bloodlines was also immortal, they chould NEVER eventually be the family of everyone on the planet. there is no way, the mortals will simply breed WAY too much faster, yous see?

[Nekira Sudacne]

make up your mind? does your mythology consider them gods or not?

Hmm.... I don't know how to tell you. I think they are more saints, in the modern sense of the word. Or a godling. So are they considered gods? I think they are almost there, but not just yet. And they can still be easily killed, so I suggest not.

So basically, your saying the immortals a "sacred" or "holy", but not "devine"?

First cousins, yes, same here. a two times removed cousin is questionable

from fourth time removed (note, in our language, a "sixth cousin" is "six generations removed", not the sixth child of your father's brother)cousin outwards, they are genetically speaking a stranger (and unless your family keeps in VERY good contact, likely is a total stranger as well

Hmm... I think Chinese tends to keep contact with their relative no matter how much removed we are, or how many generations apart. However, there were practices that marry cousins not a few century ago.

I guess that's probablly possible sinse you chinese have lived in (roughly) the same area for such a freaking long time.

Here in america, most of the people here moved away from their families in europe, and with the rapid expansion once here the next generations would move away from the next, and with no reliable system of quick communication, a lot of families just plain broke apart. Generally speaking it's rare for someone in america to even know who their second cousins are.

how? for every child of yours born in a given year, millions more are born that are not relates. if there is only 1 immortal with 10000 other people way back in the day, then while his family will grow to have millions of decendants, there will be BILLIONS not. for every 1 born of his bloodline, there are 9999 familys that are not that grow at the same rate.

Yes. That's what I mean. Potentially he/she is a "father" of the planet. You know, like Abraham in the good book.

I think you got it mixed up.

Lets say there are only 10,000 humans in the world a long long time ago.

One of them becomes an immortal.

so you have 1 immortal and 9,999 mortals. lets say for the sake of argument every one of them has 3 children

so that's 3 children of hte immortals line and 29,997 children of hte mortal lines.

so, next generation. our Imortal has 3 more children, and each of his 3 children have three more children, and everyone of every mortal bloodline has 3 children.

so that'd be 12 children of the immortal bloodline and 89,991 mortal children

now, once again, our immortal has lets say 10 children, and each of his current 12 children have 10 children while every mortal bloodline has 3 children each.

The immortal bloodline now has a total of 130 children to it's name, while the mortal bloodlines now have 269,973!

even assuming EVERY child of the immortal bloodlines was also immortal, they chould NEVER eventually be the family of everyone on the planet. there is no way, the mortals will simply breed WAY too much faster, yous see?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think you got it mixed up.
Lets say there are only 10,000 humans in the world a long long time ago.
One of them becomes an immortal.
so you have 1 immortal and 9,999 mortals. lets say for the sake of argument every one of them has 3 children
so that's 3 children of the immortals line and 29,997 children of the mortal lines.
so, next generation. our Immortal has 3 more children, and each of his 3 children have three more children, and everyone of every mortal bloodline has 3 children.
so that'd be 12 children of the immortal bloodline and 89,991 mortal children
now, once again, our immortal has lets say 10 children, and each of his current 12 children have 10 children while every mortal bloodline has 3 children each.
The immortal bloodline now has a total of 130 children to it's name, while the mortal bloodlines now have 269,973!
even assuming EVERY child of the immortal bloodlines was also immortal, they could NEVER eventually be the family of everyone on the planet. there is no way, the mortals will simply breed WAY too much faster, yous see?

I see what you mean. But I was exaggerating when I said everyone will be his/her bloodline. A good portion of it will be tinited with his blood.

Millions will be his decendants yes.

Are you at all familiar with the "Great Family" from the Queen of the Damned? Basically it was one of hte oldest vampires who had a daughter, and she kept track of all her mortal decendants after becoming a vampire--by the time the story had caught up, she had millions of decendants that could be considered purebloods of virtually every ethniticity on the planet. but still, her family was only millions amoung billions--still just a drop in the pond