Sniper rifles and the damage they do

[Killer Cyborg]

You're supposed to use common sense with the rule, and if enough damage is done to the armor then the person inside can and should die.
(Whatever "common sense" is in this context).

Yeah but lets say that I do 51 MD aganist a 50 MDC helmet by all rights the person inside SHOULD be dead but the "last bit of armor" rule protects them. Untill there is a clear cut off "common sense" tells me that 1 point of MD getting though is plenty to kill the person inside.

What is your common sense cut off? Exceeding what the armor has left by 10 MD?... 20 MD?... 30 MD?... 50 MD?

Yup. Not just a problem with this rule, but with Palladium's reliance on "common sense" in general.

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Dude, I'm suggesting two possible house rules.
That's not something that I can be "wrong" about.

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can you please explain? dindt understood you at all

I suggested two house rules.
You said I was wrong.
That makes no sense.
That's all.

[Nightmaster]

Killer Cyborg wrote:

I suggested two house rules.
You said I was wrong.
That makes no sense.
That's all.

OK sorry, but anyway you dindt said anything to those rules i wrote out. What is your opinion on then concerning the discussion in this thread?

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg wrote:

I suggested two house rules.
You said I was wrong.
That makes no sense.
That's all.

OK sorry, but anyway you dindt said anything to those rules i wrote out. What is your opinion on then concerning the discussion in this thread?

They're good too.

[Nightmaster]

Killer Cyborg wrote:

They're good too.

just that? i hoped the seniors guys here at the boards would say something more than just good... sniff...

anyway, those rules i laid here are the rules i use when i run campaigns of Rifts. Those rules are not mine, i found then in the net some years ago, but now i dont remeber where and who was the autor of then.

The SP rules are good and makes players think twice before going into battle because they are no more walking tanks (that is the role of PAs).

Also for natural MDC characters i updated the rules so that MDC characters inside MDC armor dindt become near invencible. The armor just add to the protection of the character. I will explain below since its better this way.

MDC creatures and SP rules

MDC creatures are treated like normal characters, excepting that they are treated like being forever inside a MDC armor. To determine their SP just make like the calculation as for armors just divide then for 10 and this will give you the basic SP.

Now since this character would be inside armor this is what i call Overlaping Armor. In that situation (that applies to character using cyber-armor like the cyber-knights) the exterior armor just adds to the total SP of the character. The amount of bonus SP points given by an armor is dermined by the amount of MDC protection they offer. Just see below:

SP Bonus:
10-35 MDC = +1
36-70 MDC = +2
71-100 MDC = +3
101-130 MDC = +4
131-150 MDC = +5
151-180 MDC = +6

Ex. an Cyber-Knight have a cyber-armor impant that gives him 50 MDC (5 SP). He is wearing a crusader body armor (65 MDC). Using the table above the crusader will give him a +2 bonus SP so now his total SP is 7 instead of just 5.

Also i have 2 scales in use for attacks that bypass the SP of the character based on the classification of the weapon primary purpose:

Normal characters Weapon Scale:

Character Weapons
Multiply by 2 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Borg and Power Armor Weapons (any weapon that needs PS 22 or higher)
Multiply by 3 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Vehicles Weapons (except anti-vehicle weapons)
Multiply by 4 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Robots and Mecha Weapons (including any anti-vehicle weapons)
The amount of damage that bypass the SP are not converted to SDC!!! (you are dead)


MDC Characters Weapon Scale:
Character Weapons
Multiply by 1 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Borg and Power Armor Weapons (any weapon that needs PS 22 or higher)
Multiply by 2 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Vehicles Weapons (except anti-vehicle weapons)
Multiply by 3 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Robots and Mecha Weapons (including any anti-vehicle weapons)
Multiply by 4 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

That is it. Any question just pm me

[Shiva7]

Beyond the whole "one shot, one kill" issue, there is an underlying flaw, not just with sniper weapons, but with weapons and the called and aimed shot in general. What incentive do I have to target an opponent's leg or arm or searchlight or weapon if said item has so much MDC that hitting it once is not sufficient? If I blast your laser rifle with my laser rifle and I do 20 pts of MD, you shouldn't be able to use it. If I hit your PA in the knee, you shoudn't be able to run. If I hit your jetpack, you shouldn't be able to fly.

All of these secondary systems have so much MDC that it is virtually impossible (or at least unreasonable) to justify targeting them. I shouldn't have to destroy the entire MDC of a weapon to render it inoperable, and just because it is inoperable doesn't mean that it should be unrepairable.

This is why it is so hard to recover weapons and armor on the RIFTs battlefield...you have to destroy your enemy (and his arms and armor) to defeat him.

People need to keep in mind what zero MD means...

When an aobject reaches zero MDC, it is not atomized, nor blasted to little peices, it simply means that the object has taken so much damage that it cannot be properly repaired, thus sel it for scrap andget a new item.

Now keep in mind too, that beyond repair could happen well before the object reachs the stage of inoperable.

Thus use common sense, if a weapons or device takes damage, at some point it will cease functioning, but it doesn't mean it's beyond repair. Thus a suggested rule of thumb would be to base this degree of damage on the reliability of the weapon, for example, the CS weapons are quite tough and can take abuse well, perhaps they stop functioning when reduced to 25% of their normal MDC. Unreliable weapons might stop working at 50% MDC.

I don't recall seeing any specific rule in regards to this, but please use common sense, an object will stop working before it reaches zero MDC.

PS: a another possible ouse rule is that every time an object is targeted, the user rolls percentage based on the percentage of the MDC lost. If the object has more than 50% of it's MDC left, then a failed roll means it works, but at a reduced capacity, while object reduced below 50% MDC cease functioning on a failed roll. Low quality/knock-off weapons might have varryng additional penalties tot he % roll when taking damage.

[Shiva7]

Now since this character would be inside armor this is what i call Overlaping Armor. In that situation (that applies to character using cyber-armor like the cyber-knights) the exterior armor just adds to the total SP of the character. The amount of bonus SP points given by an armor is dermined by the amount of MDC protection they offer. Just see below:

SP Bonus:
10-35 MDC = +1
36-70 MDC = +2
71-100 MDC = +3
101-130 MDC = +4
131-150 MDC = +5
151-180 MDC = +6

Ex. an Cyber-Knight have a cyber-armor impant that gives him 50 MDC (5 SP). He is wearing a crusader body armor (65 MDC). Using the table above the crusader will give him a +2 bonus SP so now his total SP is 7 instead of just 5.

You need to make a slight fix...

The high MDC armour should set the base SP value and the lower secondary armour should set the modifier.

Technically, the way your example works, the Crusader armour would be 6 or 7 on it's own depending on how you round off decimals, thus the combined SP should be 8 or 9, not 7. Besides, what's wrong with just stacking the SP values like they do in CoWAC. Their RF values simply stack, it's much easier tan having to revert back to a table for evey different armour combination.

[Jefffar]

Well, the NE-75H "Shoulder Cannon" from the Phase World Source Book isn't quite like the boom gun, but it does 2D4X10+20 with a single shot. Only a range of 6000 feet and uses special rounds, but it is from a high tech producer like Naruni. Probably one of the best actual sniper rifles in the game.

Actually, it's not a sniper rifle, it's an anti-materiel rifle, much like the .50 caliber (and up) rifles that have started to pop up in several of hte worlds armies. It's designed to defeat a target that is otherwise impervious to normal infanry weapons, at long ranges, with precision diret fire.

Um, so? The .50 cal sniper rifle makes a great anti-person weapon IRL, even with all the "rules" that make us call it something different. Same thing would apply to the NE-75H, only there are no rules.

I'm not saying it doens't do a good job as a sniping rifle, I'm saying it's not a sniper rifle, it's an anti-materiel rifle. It's designed for targets that are better armoured than a person in body armour.

Unfortunately the game stats and rules don't allow it to live up to it's flavor text and logical capabilities.

[shadrak]

I really like Nightmaster's rules, but I think it should be different for different weapons (lasers, for instance, should probably have little or no carry over for the armored individual) These rules would work best for explosions and projectiles and maybe plasma weapons.

I am not so sure there should be any carry over damage for individuals in Robots or vehicles, especially if there is an armored crew compartment.

There should be a set of rules/guidance on how to individualize sets of armor...a 3D6 or 4D6 laser weapon becomes more than enough if I can focus the damage on a particular spot like the neck or hand. Obviously, these kind of attacks suffer a SERIOUS penalty, but the fact remains, characters, expecially invenditve ones, should have the opportunity to pull off amazing victories. If the neck of armor is 10 or 15% of the MDC of the head to penatrate, or the visor is 50% of the MDC of the head to penetrate, then I think the rule become more fair.

Those of you who think this will create munchkin characters are wrong. Sure, I can kill ONE enemy with a single shot...and even then, I have to be both skilled and lucky. But, what are my chances of killing 2? Especially after the first one falls and my opponents are now moving?

OH MY GOD! To kill an MDC being you would have to have a gun that did, like, 3D6x10 damage!!! First, thats a load of bull crap...a sniper rifle shouldn't be above 1D6x10 damage, otherwise it wouldn't be manportable (my argument here is that it is better to snipe with a C-29 than a sniper rifle, and this is why the rules should be changed). And that 1D6x10 sniper rifle can kill an MDC being, even a Gargoyle (though, perhaps, not a Dragon, etc.)

Why is that? Let us investigate early MDC beings (and even more recent ones) Many MDC creatures had seperate values for locations. In fact, the main rule books of Heroes Unlimited and Rifts, among other palladium products, give recomentations for hit capacity for seperate body locations. Using this as a guide, a Gargoyles head would have 15-35% of the MDC of the main body. The Gargolyes eye might have 30% of that. Thus an eye might have 40 MDC. Significant damage to an eye might carry over to the brain (there is an implied physiological similarity between humans and Gargoyles in WB 5: Triax), and could result in death or incapacitation.

Granted, such a shot would be very difficult. The eye would have a diameter of about 4-5 inches, so the shot would not be impossible (maybe a -12 penalty to a stationary target, higher if the target is moving). If the character would miss, the monster would suffer damage to the face, and would be VERY angry, so that would discourage excessive use of long range sniping attacks.

Treating a suit of armor or a monster as merely a statistical compilation results in a less flavorful game.

[Nightmaster]

Shiva7 wrote:

You need to make a slight fix...

The high MDC armour should set the base SP value and the lower secondary armour should set the modifier.

Technically, the way your example works, the Crusader armour would be 6 or 7 on it's own depending on how you round off decimals, thus the combined SP should be 8 or 9, not 7. Besides, what's wrong with just stacking the SP values like they do in CoWAC. Their RF values simply stack, it's much easier tan having to revert back to a table for evey different armour combination.

I have make it this way to prevent munchkinism because natural MDC characters (like the mega juicer) will have somewhat between 90-150 MDC so for purpose of game balance i have made the rules this way, but i agree that it need some rework when concerning low MDC characters and characters that are using a cyber-armor.

shadrak wrote:

I really like Nightmaster's rules, but I think it should be different for different weapons (lasers, for instance, should probably have little or no carry over for the armored individual) These rules would work best for explosions and projectiles and maybe plasma weapons.

I am not so sure there should be any carry over damage for individuals in Robots or vehicles, especially if there is an armored crew compartment.

I dont know if i understood what you said (my english), but anyway i must clarify some of the SP rules.

1st: its used to characters in body armor. Characters inside Power Armor, Robots and Vehicles use the normal rules that appear in the Rifts books.

2nd: the purpose of the scale i presented was to make a difference between weapons like an Laser Rifle and a Railgun. I never thinked in the diferent types of attack (laser, ion, etc) i though in the diferent types of purposes for each weapon presented in the Rifts books (see the weapons in vehicles for an example, they all have a primary and secondary function) To clarify it better see below:

Character Weapons (pistols, rifles, grenades, etc)
Multiply by 2 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Borg and Power Armor Weapons (any weapon that needs PS 22 or higher like a Railgun, light anti-infantry weapons and mini-missiles)
Multiply by 3 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Vehicles Weapons (ex. anti-infantry/personnel weapons and short/medium range missiles in general)
Multiply by 4 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Robots and Mecha Weapons (ex. anti-vehicle/robot/monster weapons and long range missiles)
The amount of damage that bypass the SP are not converted to SDC!!! (you are dead)


MDC Characters Weapon Scale:
Character Weapons (pistols, rifles, grenades, etc)
Multiply by 1 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Borg and Power Armor Weapons (any weapon that needs PS 22 or higher like a Railgun, light anti-infantry weapons and mini-missiles)
Multiply by 2 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Vehicles Weapons (ex. anti-infantry/personnel weapons and short/medium range missiles in general)
Multiply by 3 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

Robots and Mecha Weapons (ex. anti-vehicle/robot/monster weapons and long range missiles)
Multiply by 4 the amount of damage that bypass the SP

[Danger]

Just as a point, how many weapons out there could actually kill a gargoyle in one or two hits. Even the boom gun cant wipe out a gargoyle in 1 hit. A sniper rifle that could do such a thing would be ludacris (u know, the rapper)

If you need more power in sniper rifle, go get the NE sniper rifle. If memory serves me it 2d4x10 or something insane like that.

A sniper rifle that does anywhere equivalent damage to a boom gun (which is about what you would need to one shot kill someone in armor) is, well, dumb.

which is why i stated what i did, read bold

I know. I was agreeing with you.