Troop Transports...

Hystrix · Unread post by **Hystrix** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:16 pm

I have a problem with how cerian armies in the Three Galaxies are portraied as far as fleets go. It seems to me that the Kreegor would be inventing ships to transport thousands, or tens (or hundreds) of thousands of troops each. Yet all we see is small ships except for the Dreadnaught (there are only 23 of them); and that can only hold about 8000 troops for a total of 184,000 troops with the whole fleet of Dreadnaughts...

Shouldn't there be a transport ship (or several designs of ships) that carry the vast armies of the TGE?

Nekira Sudacne · Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:20 am

What would be done with them? and what would they be used for?

And bear in mind, any ship large enough to carry entire armies is going to be hard as hell to build and even harder to maintain. so many people are going to make mistakes, accidents, and need repairs. carrying enough food for that many people is a hassle and a half, and don't forget that they will need a LOT of space so they don't get so cramped they start fighting all the time.

the reason why they havn't is simple: It's simply too much hassle, for not enough gain.

Esckey · Unread post by **Esckey** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:37 am

Yes and their should be some better rules for cargo ships and their capacity. 100 tons sounds like alot but is there enough room for 100 tons?

How many tons can a cargo bay thats 270000 cubic meters carry?

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:21 am

Troop transportation is not a big concern in the three galaxies because 99.99% of the time you fight wars with starships and not with personell on the ground. It is too costly to win a war on the ground. Ships can easily pound targets from orbit and once a planet is "under controll" troops are sent in gradually to secure the planet and enforce new laws of the controlling empire or government. A great example of just how costly ground battles can be is Axis 5.

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:28 am

Fleets of the Three Galaxies includes an article on the guidelines for GM's to construct their own ships. If you feel compelled to develop large troop transports there will be some guidelines for you to do so.

Hystrix · Unread post by **Hystrix** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:58 am

They still have to move troops.

What would be done with them? and what would they be used for?

You don't garrison a subugated world of say a billion people with 8,000 troops.

For a whole planet like that you'd need more... Besides the Kreegor are a very war-like culture. Vast armies would be thier thing... so how do they move those vast armies?

You could have 5,000 Rain of deaths to bring 100,000 troops, but that seems too few.

I mean really, the Zentreadi did it. At some point some one is going to build transport a large number of troops to a ground war, and no other civilization is going to compete, becaue (according to everything we know about Three Galaxies) no one else has any freakin' troop transports.

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:06 am

So build one.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:13 pm

Standard rule of Sci-Fi / Fantasy fiction - just because you don't see it in the official material, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just means that there was not enough space in the source material or time for the authors to develop it fully.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:09 pm

Even if fleet of the Galaxy doesn't answer every question, it'll sounds like it'll be enough of a guideline for those who need the assistance. And it'll help those of use who already produce are own ships for 3G's.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:55 pm

Thing is...what's best for a combat troop transport?

You want lots of light, high-capacity fast carriers with minimal point defense weaponry, that move in (with escort) once the heavies have softened up the opposition dirtside...

Or...

Do you go with something like the SDF-1 with onboard factories, support facilities, housing, armaments that cover the whole spectrum of needs, and attached fighter support?

Or..

A slow-moving heavily armored megastructure that can serve as a surface/space fortification?

Optimize weapons for anti-fighter/missile defense, or ground bombardment in support of the troops?

Stay in orbit and deploy lots of shuttles and droppods, or go down the surface and deploy the troops directly?

When you're designing transports, it gets a little more involved than for other classes...(Battleships: big guns, heavy armor...Destroyers...fast, light, mostly light weaponry and some heavier pieces, etc...)

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:00 pm

I do Max. But there are times I'm hard pressed before a game to come up with some sort of ship. And if you are experiencing a dry spell like I did for about 6 months. A nudge never hurts a GM. I'll use pretty much any source material. I have in the past and still do. I'm always going thru my "Jane's giudes" for something for Rifts.

Braden Campbell · Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:33 pm

"Fleets of the Three Galaxies" is now on its way to becoming the manuscript for Phase World Sourcebook 2.

All of these issues will adressed in one way or another. Trust me. I've encountered them too as a GM...

In fact, this entire thing got started becasue one of my players asked: "Brae, what are the standard systems on a starship?"

To which I was forced to reply: "I don't know..."

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:36 pm

Congrats on that....hopefully it will be fast-tracked for publication...

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:16 am

taalismn wrote:Thing is...what's best for a combat troop transport?

You want lots of light, high-capacity fast carriers with minimal point defense weaponry, that move in (with escort) once the heavies have softened up the opposition dirtside...

Or...

Do you go with something like the SDF-1 with onboard factories, support facilities, housing, armaments that cover the whole spectrum of needs, and attached fighter support?

Or..

A slow-moving heavily armored megastructure that can serve as a surface/space fortification?

Optimize weapons for anti-fighter/missile defense, or ground bombardment in support of the troops?

Stay in orbit and deploy lots of shuttles and droppods, or go down the surface and deploy the troops directly?

When you're designing transports, it gets a little more involved than for other classes...(Battleships: big guns, heavy armor...Destroyers...fast, light, mostly light weaponry and some heavier pieces, etc...)

And in the real world each naval force has to view the sme considerations when designing their landing ships . . . or any other class of ship.

The design of warships, including special role ship like amphibious warfare vessels or aircraft carriers, is a finely tuned balancing act involving a variety of factors such as protection, firepower, speed, range, carried air group, carried marine group, sensors, communications, ease of maintenace, compatiblity with existing logistics systems, size . . . and so on.

There are some general lessons that modern militaries have picked up in the past 100 years of amphibious operations that I think can be generally applied to the phase world setting

1) Fire support and air support are provided by specialist vehicles, not by the troop and tank cariers.

2) The actual landing vessels should not be any larger than necissary for landing a specific system or group of systems. This is because they will be the most deeply in harms way and it's better to have many small targets and see a percentage of your force lost than onebig target that if it gets wiped out your whole force goes down the tube.

3) A specialist vehicle will be used to transport the bulk of the marine group, plus the landing vessels. Like fire support and air support it will stay out of reach of enemy defences.

4) The entire force should be well escorted and protected by ships and fighters.

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:31 pm

I agree with JEFFFAR's comments on troop transpor speciality. The Rain of death transport is too small to do what its trying to do. It has 32 weapons on it 12 are mini missile launchers which take up internal space as well as 4 gravity cannons also taking up internal space in addition ther is also a significant bomb bay which take up a substantial amount of space. The ship is only 200'long 80' wide and 80' tall and it is supposed to have a cargo bay which is at least 120' long 80' wide and 50' high to accomodate a doomsday machine. Simply put thses troop transports can not carry doomsday machines. They are really designed as an enhanced fire and support vehicle which would travel with a larger and less armed and armored troop transport. The rain of death can also carry a fair number of troops which makes it a dual role fire and support machine. Braden GMPHD will have to draft a new troop transport to be carried by his new cruiser class of ship for the Transgalactic flees portion of his articles.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:26 pm

I also agree with Jeffar about his discertation on specialized ships. I should work on designing some assault transports. I haven't done that in a while.

Braden Campbell · Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:10 pm

I'll just say this:

TGE Executioner-class RO-RO battleship...

30 Doomsday Machines, and 30 Rain of Death transports to land them all in one sortie.
_________________________________________

See you in hell, nameless colony world...

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:20 pm

Interesting sort of promotion Braden! I'm interested in seeing what it reads like! And very interested in using it in a game.

Hystrix · Unread post by **Hystrix** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:52 am

Braden, GMPhD wrote:I'll just say this:

TGE Executioner-class RO-RO battleship...

30 Doomsday Machines, and 30 Rain of Death transports to land them all in one sortie.
_________________________________________

See you in hell, nameless colony world...

Wicked. Now, I want your book!

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:11 am

Branden reminded me of the lesson I forgot:

It is wise for the main transport ship to have a direct troop and gear landing capability. If the landing area is secured in advance, it's much faster to unload the transport ship directly on the beach than running stuff back and forth.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:34 pm

And then if you are using Grav Tanks and APCs they could land themselves.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:11 pm

Aramanthus wrote:And then if you are using Grav Tanks and APCs they could land themselves.

Which is the idea of DD-Shurmans, LPTs and the newer AAAVs.

Problem is they ain't as fast (usually) as the dedicated landing craft and are more vulnerable to fire. It's also hard for them to provide quality fire support until they hit the beach.

For the mile long swim to shore, it aint' so bad, but the 200 mile fall from orbit probably isn't going to go so well - especially without some quality heat shields.

glitterboy2098 · Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:47 pm

lets see, a troopcarrier/landing craft starship...

packmaster carrier, with hanger bays ripped out, heavy anti-ship weaponry removed or reduced, and automation used to reduced required crew.

the resulting space is used to cram in troop barracks, vehicle bays, and landing craft. say, a regiments worth?

the ship itself can hover within the atmosphere to facilitate landing while in hostile space, and the starship grade weaponry makes it a powerful artillery support unit.

this is something of an extreme example....

of course, you can always go the Starship troopers route and have all offensives involving powered armor infantry units, tactical nukes, and other high powered but low troop density methods. conventional infantry then becomes a cheap way to garrison inhabited planets, since you can recruit and train local militia's/defense forces.

in this case, those massively wasteful planetary battles are a case of one group hitting dirt in their PA and tanks, only to bog down when the local PBI's are reinforced with frontline units as well. then the invaders recruit local dissident populations to counter the PBI's, and you end up with a long drawn out fight.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:37 pm

darkmax wrote:I tend to think that a vessel carrying smaller crafts can also carry troops. Little or no modification needed.

Yes it can.

But unless it's purpose built for it, getting those troops from the ship to the shore quickly, safely and in fighting trim is the problem.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:27 pm

darkmax wrote:Regarding orbital bombardment, I have this thought to share: if you are to conquer the planet and its citizens, why do something as hazardous as orbital bombardment? Unless you mean to reduce the population to a manageable size while destroying indiscriminately the historical artifacts of that civilization.

To me, that will only serve to instill resistance in the remaining population.

Or serve to demoralize them uterly and bend them to your will - at least according to TGE doctrine.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:14 pm

darkmax wrote:Yes. The TGE We-own-the-galaxies-and-we-don't-care-how-we-do-it doctrine.

Also known as the Free-World-Council-needs-more-recruits doctrine.

Esckey · Unread post by **Esckey** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:26 am

How about a ship that can comfortably hold 2500 troops(assuming human sized)? And by comfortable I mean each soilder regardless of rank gets a room thats 5mX3mX4m. Thats enough room for a 8foot by 4 foot bed, a 3 foot by 1.5foot dresser(height doesn't matter) and a TV. That also leaves about 15 square meters of space. Anything else the soilder needs can be taken care of by the ship, like the cafeteria or the rec room.

Only problem is feeding 2500 troops plus the ships crew.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:47 pm

Why do you assume it's comfortable with individual rooms? Most ships have multiple bunks and a small locker space.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:10 pm

Like the fun a submarine crew has of hot bunking?

Esckey · Unread post by **Esckey** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:13 pm

I assume its comfortable cause then you have some privacy, heck with the room left over could have a small bathroom or desk. And at one person per 60 cubic meters it came out to 2500. Pretty good for a ship thats 440X130X30. Double up the bunk space, the rooms are 4 meters high, and it would be anywhere from 5000 to 10000. Though once again there is the problem of food storage.

It'll take alot of food to feed 5000 people everyday for say a month or so. But it might just be dried food that provides the calories to live for that day and nothing more.

rat_bastard · Unread post by **rat_bastard** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:58 pm

just a thought but the TGE embraces magik and technology, so in theory whereever they have ley lines they might have a network of magik pyramids, that would allow nearlly limitless transport of personel...

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:14 pm

UWW does this regularly. You can also build technowizard gates at larange points to move starships through these gates just like pyramids.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:28 pm

That makes a lot of sense for UWW to have those gates at Lagrange points. Cool! I agree with that whole heartedly!

Braden Campbell · Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:28 pm

You're welcome...

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:40 pm

Thanks Braden! :-)

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:27 pm

Possible, but expensive.

glitterboy2098 · Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:41 pm

why spend space and money on barracks when you can ship twice as many in Stasis? Cryogenics, time retarding feilds, whatever. just stick them in, turn it on, and bring them out shortly before you reach your target.

even sleep regulators to keep them out cold in transit would work. you can cram in twice as many, and their life support needs will be far less. you'll still need facilities, but only for a day or two before landing. (if you make the storage tubes dual purpose, making them into living spaces like the 'tube hotels' in japan, where you have a bed and not much else, you can even save more room.)

Esckey · Unread post by **Esckey** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:11 pm

Yes, treat them like cattle. Thats probably how TGE does it. Go about it like in Aliens, could fit two tubes per bed and you don't need nothing else really. Jusy gotta hope your muscles don't atrophy while in transit.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:25 pm

If the troopers are in stasis then no atrophy will occur. Since to the trooper no time has passed since they entered stasis.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:14 pm

Remember that transports generally with troops are part of a task force. They would be very unlikely to operate alone. A small one .... say a heavily modified Hunter could operate alone. It's not the norm for transports to be without escorts.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:31 pm

Why wouldn't UWW troop transports just have teleporation circles?

Heck, why does the UWW need signifigan number of troop transport ships anyway? Just open a rift between planet A and Planet B?

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:05 pm

Not quite.

You were talking about dimensional pockets onboard transport ships to allow them to carry more troops.

I proposed:

1) Teleport circiles on the troop transports allowing them to land troops faster without haing to send them on landing craft through a defensive scree. A side benefit is that since you don't need to have landing craft aboard you can make more room for the troops or have smaller ships.

2) Alternately, the UWW doesn't need more than a handful of troop transports (for use where magic isn't usable) because they can just open a rift and their assault force can just step from Planet A to Planet B

Our ideas are related in the use of dimensional magic to solve some of the problems of space to planet assault, but there is qite a dfference in our approaches.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:22 pm

provided there's enough advanced knowledge on the site/planet you're moving your troops to to allow for reliable magic teleport...That's where having a scout force scout out local conditions and disposition of enemy forces is a must.....Roger McBRide Allen dealt with a similar problem in his novel 'Aliens and Allies', with a teleporting military force used to get around an ironclad orbital defense net...

You also want some means for the troops to be able to retreat quickly in an emergency, if they're caught offguard...and the local planetary conditions might not allow enough ambient PPE for a quick about-face...

Ideally, I'd use a combination of a few big Rift-gates and a taskforce of light transports(with stealth, ideally)...the transports can play overwatch on the main teleport sites and move their commando forces to decoy and interdict the enemy forces onhand, while the main force is pouring through and securing their positions against the WMDs likely to be brought to bear on their massed assets...The airborne scout force would also be scoping locations for troops from the gate-force to use local teleports to further disperse and flank the defending foces....

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:39 pm

taalismn wrote:provided there's enough advanced knowledge on the site/planet you're moving your troops to to allow for reliable magic teleport...That's where having a scout force scout out local conditions and disposition of enemy forces is a must.....Roger McBRide Allen dealt with a similar problem in his novel 'Aliens and Allies', with a teleporting military force used to get around an ironclad orbital defense net...

Scout forces, scrying, astral tavel, recruiting individuls familiar with the planet (I suspect there are a lot of UWW "Tourists" visiting a lot of planets around the 3 Galaxies).

taalismn wrote:You also want some means for the troops to be able to retreat quickly in an emergency, if they're caught offguard...and the local planetary conditions might not allow enough ambient PPE for a quick about-face...

Well if the Rift creation system back on the attacking world can generate 2 way rifts, you don't need to worry about it so much. Also, sending through some PPE batteries would be handy.

taalismn wrote:Ideally, I'd use a combination of a few big Rift-gates and a taskforce of light transports(with stealth, ideally)...the transports can play overwatch on the main teleport sites and move their commando forces to decoy and interdict the enemy forces onhand, while the main force is pouring through and securing their positions against the WMDs likely to be brought to bear on their massed assets...The airborne scout force would also be scoping locations for troops from the gate-force to use local teleports to further disperse and flank the defending foces....

About the WMDs used agaisnt the rift-in sites. What if the rift-in site was the planetary capital, a mega city of several hundred million which the UWW forces in a matter of minutes were able to occupy and prepare to defend agaisnt any assault force that might try to take it back?

Would you still nuke it from orbit or would you start negotiating?

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:55 pm

Jefffar wrote:About the WMDs used agaisnt the rift-in sites. What if the rift-in site was the planetary capital, a mega city of several hundred million which the UWW forces in a matter of minutes were able to occupy and prepare to defend agaisnt any assault force that might try to take it back?

Would you still nuke it from orbit or would you start negotiating?

Depends on who you're invading...the UWW doesn't strike me, from what I've read, as terribly big on offensive operations...though they MIGHt use such tactics in limited fashion as a 'police action'...any real enemy, like a Soviet-style aggressor who needed to be neutralized, would likely be aware of the strategy and would disperse their leadership and logistics accordingly...then lay seige to the invested city....Bastards like the TGE might well see such a beachhead city not as a hostage, but as a liability....the citizens would be expected to fight the enemy in urban combat for as long as possible, to diminsih their forces and tie them up from expanding the beachhead...then die honorably in sacrifice when the Imperial forces sanitize the area with bombardment...

I'm not saying it's a BAD idea, it might actually be perfect if executed by a particularly ruthless or determined strategist....it's just that ANY plan rarely survives the first fifteen minutes of actual engagement... and if that ruthless strategist happens to run into a real maniac of a defender...

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:11 pm

taalismn wrote:Depends on who you're invading...the UWW doesn't strike me, from what I've read, as terribly big on offensive operations...though they MIGHt use such tactics in limited fashion as a 'police action'...any real enemy, like a Soviet-style aggressor who needed to be neutralized, would likely be aware of the strategy and would disperse their leadership and logistics accordingly...then lay seige to the invested city....Bastards like the TGE might well see such a beachhead city not as a hostage, but as a liability....the citizens would be expected to fight the enemy in urban combat for as long as possible, to diminsih their forces and tie them up from expanding the beachhead...then die honorably in sacrifice when the Imperial forces sanitize the area with bombardment...

I'm not saying it's a BAD idea, it might actually be perfect if executed by a particularly ruthless or determined strategist....it's just that ANY plan rarely survives the first fifteen minutes of actual engagement... and if that ruthless strategist happens to run into a real maniac of a defender...

I agree it wouldn't work so well against the TGE, but most other forces who actually care for their citizens might have a problem coming up with an effective counter that still allowed the members of their governing bodies to meet face to face.

There are 2 keys to the strategy:

First is surprise. The opposition can't know you might be going for a decapitation strike on this maginitude. Fortunately for the UWW, since they don't go on the offensive often (make that ever) nobody really knows that they have this particular tactic at their disposal.

Second is overhwelming force. You need to put Complete Divisions and Corps on the ground in a few minutes. You have to make it so the few police an guard units in the city can't stand up to you, that the civilian populaiton is cowed into not resisting you, and that the other planetside military forces are unable to dislodge you from the city until your next wave is ready.

The best part the UWW has going for it in this is that there is no real maximum range for the Rift spell. So theoretically, if they could raise a spare division from each populted world in the UWW (and a division is really a small force for a populated planet to spare) they could potentially deliver an unprecedente assault force planet wide to the target planet within a span of a few minutes or maybe hours. With virtually no warning.

If the UWW ever gets an agressive bent, they could do some really serious damage.

Especially when you consider that the special forces teams slipped into the planet to lay the groundwork for the assault will include Warlock Marines, Warlock Marine Magic Specialists, Shifters, Ley Line Walkers and Dragons.

Esckey · Unread post by **Esckey** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:25 pm

What about defenses againsts Rifts? Anti-magic missiles, negate magic, and anything that would suck up PPE, and so forth would stop the invasion in its tracks. Wouldn't stop those on the gorund already, but probably shut off the rift.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:14 pm

The only signifigant power bloc other than the UWW that I could see fielding such resources are the Splugorth. I also expect them to use the same sort of tactics at war incidently.

The past wars between the UWW and the Splugorth must have been very frightening affairs - but the UWW seems to have won.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:53 pm

Actually, they are attacking in such a way that little or no actual fighting has to happen.

Just think about it. What if, in 1940, 2 British divisions had just appeared in Berlin, siezed the Reichstag, the Fhurer and the German High Command and passed along the message to the German field commanders that their wives and children were safe and sound under British protection and politely asked them to cease their offensive actions and return their tanks, aircraft and U-boats to their bases so they could inspected for violtions of the Vesallies Treaty.

Other than subduing the relativley small cadre of troops present in the city at the time (in a War you keep your troops near enough to te enemy to do some good, not back in the capitol getting fat) there would be hardly any fighting.

How much longer do you think the war would have lasted? How many million less casualties would there have been?

I personally think it's a wonderfully civilized way to fight a war.

Even if it doens't work, you force the enemy to waste resources attacking his own capital city while your main force prepares for battle on the frontiers.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:01 pm

plus with the number of clairvoyants and psychics they ahve on the planning staff double-checking each other, there's a reduced chance of something like;

"You just teleported your forward command staff in front of a speeding cargo semi...taken utterly by surprise by the sudden appearance of a group of armed men in front of him, the 65-year old average joe has only enough wits about him to begin to break, but physics takes over, and his load of deep frozen chicken parts rolls over and crushes a general, six colonels, five majors, and a number of communications techs and support personnel..."