Cruise missiles...

[Braden Campbell]

Can we all agree that since a Tomahawk missile (500 kilotons) puts out the same amount of damage as a PW nuclear cruise missile, that the Phase World missile would have a comparable blast radius?

So if fired in an atmosphere, they would do their listed damage for 1000 feet, and secondary damage for 3 miles.

But if fired in the vacuum of space, they would have no secondary effects, and a greatly reduced blast radius...?

Any nuclear physicists on this board?

[shadrak]

Nope...I bet we can't agree. But I think what you propose works and makes more sense than a lot of other things in the palladium megaverse, so I would say that it sounds good to me!!!

Of course, if they want to damage a point target, there might be ways that they could reduce the blast radius....

Sounds good for a maximum, though.

[glitterboy2098]

makes logical sense to me.

as far as the space blast radius is concerned, you would only get the primary damage. in an atmsphere, the majority of the damage is by overpressure effects, or the 'shockwave'. the thermal effects are limited to a small area, and mostly set up the shockwave.

in space, it's a vacuum so no shockwave is possible, meaning any damage it does will be through thermal effects only.

so applying the primary damage to a spherical region equivelent to the 1000ft radius is what you get.

[Braden Campbell]

The only problem I can see is that a single nuclear torpedo can cover an entire cruiser with damage.

EXAMPLE: 2D6x100... I roll 600 MDC. 1000' blast radius means I can cover one entire side of a Warshield cruiser, and everything on that side takes 600 MDC (main body, weapon turrets, etc...)

That's a lot of ship killing firepower, especially since the big battleships can throw around volleys of ten cruise missiles or more...

[Greyaxe]

makes logical sense to me.

as far as the space blast radius is concerned, you would only get the primary damage. in an atmsphere, the majority of the damage is by overpressure effects, or the 'shockwave'. the thermal effects are limited to a small area, and mostly set up the shockwave.

in space, it's a vacuum so no shockwave is possible, meaning any damage it does will be through thermal effects only.

so applying the primary damage to a spherical region equivelent to the 1000ft radius is what you get.

What he said.

[Greyaxe]

The only problem I can see is that a single nuclear torpedo can cover an entire cruiser with damage.

EXAMPLE: 2D6x100... I roll 600 MDC. 1000' blast radius means I can cover one entire side of a Warshield cruiser, and everything on that side takes 600 MDC (main body, weapon turrets, etc...)

That's a lot of ship killing firepower, especially since the big battleships can throw around volleys of ten cruise missiles or more...

This explains why the blast radii are so badly diminished in Palladuim books.

[Aramanthus]

That is what they are supposed to be a guideline. And I guess what Braden said looks ok to me too.

[Aramanthus]

Actually I was already doing that with nuclear cruise missiles.

[Greyaxe]

This makes fighters capable fo delivering a cruise missile strike on a ship without shields up a particularly devastating. Devastating enought to throw game balance out the window. Imagine all you weapon systems on one side of your ship knocked out in a single blast. That is a significant blow and could be the deciding factor in a space battle. I think the blast radious should perhaps be tripled but a 1000' blast is to big.

[Jefffar]

During the Cold War (and to the present day for that matter) the Russians kept a large number of nuclear tipped anti-ship missiles. The idea being that, if need be, they could cripple an entire fleet from just outside of the range of the close in air defence systems with the secondary effects of a 200 kiloton blast - going for the "mission kill" rather thn outright destroying the target.

[Braden Campbell]

But if Cruise missiles are so deadly in Phase World, then why even bother arming your ship with big lasers?

I'm wondering if for game balance purposes, we make the blast on cruise missiles (both types) at most 150 ' in space. In an atmosphere, they can be much larger (tripled... 450 '), and with all the side effects of a nuclear blast.

Hence, the plethora of the things on starships... I mean, My God, the Berserker can fire off 20 of these things in 15 seconds.

The enhanced cruise and singularity missiles as found in Three Galaxies, since they are meant to be WMDs, can have a blast radius of 1000'.

[Jefffar]

But if Cruise missiles are so deadly in Phase World, then why even bother arming your ship with big lasers?

Which is, in essence, the reason why we don't have battleships anymore.


That being said, the big guns are useful because:

1) In protracted space battles and orbital bombardments, you will get more big gun shots thn missile salvos off.
2) You can intercept a missile using a simple CIWS. To intercept a laser requires a lot more effort.
3) If the ship's shields are up, they take the main hit and none of that extra radius damage would bleed through.

So, until you can catch a ship with it's shields down and unable to intercept the missile, the guns are going to be essential to space battle.

[Braden Campbell]

Guess it would explain why everybody in the 3G's wants force fields...

[shadrak]

yes...that does make sense

[Jefffar]

Yeap.

Think about the Bismark - battered for several hours with literally thousands of round of ammunition from the British Battleships' Big Guns.

And finally sunk by a destroyer that went in close and hit it with a brace of torpedoes.

[Aramanthus]

Just remember most of those British "Big guns" were of the 14inch variety, with the Rodney and Nelson providing the only 16inchers the British had at the time. The Bismarck was a remarkable ship design. But you also have to remember that the European powers were not as armored as the American and Japanese classes. Both of those had significantly more armor. And don't forget the Americans had just started using a more powerful AP round shortly after the start of WW2. It could penetrate the front turret armor of the Yamatos.

[glitterboy2098]

But if Cruise missiles are so deadly in Phase World, then why even bother arming your ship with big lasers?

because even your most basic of vehicle lasers (1d6x10) can reliably blow up a flight of cruise missiles. (they only have about 20-25 mdc, extropolating from the LRM. and you have a pretty good chance of taking out the whole volley. and most combat ships have a half dozen or more lasers of that type for point defense, all gunning for the volley.).

because while missiles can destroy a target, they are an area effect weapon, and can't take out specific parts to just disable a ship. a laser/particle beam/railgun can.

and you can only carry so many missiles on your ship. a laser/particle beam will only run out of 'ammo' when you run out of fuel for your reactor. allowing you to fight on long after your missile magazines run dry.





likewise this is why you want to mount a mix of lasers, particle beams, and kinetics. kinetics will be short ranged (due to slower flight speed) but high damage. particle beams are very energy efficent with good range (near lightspeed velocities), but have slightly less punch and can be negated by a magnetic feild around the target.
lasers have long range, and are less energy efficent than a particle beam, but they are virtually impossible to stop. (at best you can reduce the effects.)

[Aramanthus]

I've already taken what Gadrin said during my game. We've had some pretty vicious space battles. And we've seen how flights of missiles are deadly. Even using Kitsune's extended ranges for weapons of Phase World those missiles are killers for little ships. Seen many destroyers go poof when they get targeted by cruise missiles. Although their point defenses do wear away the number of missiles that can hit them. If they are lucky their PD knocks out enough to allow them to survive a volley.

[Greyaxe]

because even your most basic of vehicle lasers (1d6x10) can reliably blow up a flight of cruise missiles. (they only have about 20-25 mdc, extropolating from the LRM.

Actually they have 60md. They are listed in the MDC by location for the Scorpion Fighter. It is the olny place they MDC for cruise missiles is found.

[Braden Campbell]

But how much do they cost...?

[Greyaxe]

They are free of course

[Braden Campbell]

Ok... I have included a tiny section on cruise missiles into my manuscript. Includes their weight, speed, MDC, and blast radii... and cost.

[Greyaxe]

Way to go! Bray.

[Braden Campbell]

The Three Galaxies Book has the "high yield" CMs at 580,000 credits each.

but a Coalition Long range heavy nuclear (2D4x100) if 1.9 million. And we are told in the first Phase World book that the cost of weapons is pretty equal... so what the hell?

A modern Tomahawk missile runs 1.5 million apiece...

[Aramanthus]

That does sound pretty reasonable Darkmax!

[Aramanthus]

LOL Sounds about normal for unscrupulous sales people everywhere.

[Aramanthus]

What about just Trillionaries.

[Aramanthus]

Gadrin, are you co/authoring that book with Braden?