The Tolkien strategy of Cut and Run

[Toc Rat]

And not for nothing.. but Tolkeen could have avoided the entire mess by moving. The military build up took ages. They knew it was coming, and in the books of the war it was pointed out dozens of times the entire war could have been avoided if Tolkeen had just moved. In the end they were just as bad as the CS (( and dug their own grave with some of the demonic deals and such they did))

Neither side was innocent in the end. Both were reflections of each other. Which was.... MOST of the entire POINT.

Because running away solves the problem? I am so tired of hearing that argument. Where would the world be today if the US had "run" from WWII Japan or Germany? What if Russia had packed up and moved in the face of the German invasion?

I'm not going to argue about how "evil" Tolkeen was for using demons to help them fight. That's not the issue. I'm just tired of hearing about how they should have "moved". Running away doesn't solve problems.

Hey All, just putting in a note here about me spliting this topic off the origional thread about Prosek. This is really a different topic and needs its own thread. Thanks.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And not for nothing.. but Tolkeen could have avoided the entire mess by moving. The military build up took ages. They knew it was coming, and in the books of the war it was pointed out dozens of times the entire war could have been avoided if Tolkeen had just moved. In the end they were just as bad as the CS (( and dug their own grave with some of the demonic deals and such they did))

Neither side was innocent in the end. Both were reflections of each other. Which was.... MOST of the entire POINT.

Because running away solves the problem? I am so tired of hearing that argument. Where would the world be today if the US had "run" from WWII Japan or Germany? What if Russia had packed up and moved in the face of the German invasion?

I'm not going to argue about how "evil" Tolkeen was for using demons to help them fight. That's not the issue. I'm just tired of hearing about how they should have "moved". Running away doesn't solve problems.

Because running away keeps you alive when faced with a surpeior foe. Sure in video games and stuff the under dog can win. In real life they die.

Tolkeen and the CS wen't like any modern nations you can cite. There is about 2/3ds of the NA Contient not claimed by the CS. Tolkeen had the unfortunate luck to be nesseled right up beside them. Had they went "Hurm. Those millions of humans with tanks and laser rifles are right across the state line, we might wanna build out in Colorado or something" the war wouldn't have happened for GENERATIONS. If ever. (( By the time the CS expanded to be compeating for turf, the Prosek's might not even be in power any more))

The US and Germany? Where would the US have run to? In today's age the planet is pretty much mapped out and claimed. In Rifts earth, it's not. They had MASSIVE area that Tolkeen could have moved to and not been a blip on the CS radar for decades if ever. And.. not for nothing, but you picked fights that were won. Tolkeen lost. So.. the world is in a place with out tolkeen when they didn't run. It'd be a place with a MOVED Tolkeen if they had.

Now should they 'have had to move' No. Of cource not. Would it be fair to make them move? nope.

Still they had signifagently fewer people to move, their population was much smaller and by it's nature able to move. The size of area it 'ruled' was one 10th the size of the CS.

Fights don't always go to the bigger, stronger, better armed, more populace nations.

But if taking bets, you wanna bet that way.

Heck even in the books themselve the letters of Erin stated the fact.

Lazlo was building housing and infrastructure to house the "Survivors" of the Tolkeen war before the first shot was even fired.

Now... If I were a little 5 foot guy standing in a room with a 7 foot wrestler and the wrestler made alllll sorts of motions he was going to kill me and eat me for breakfast.

If I spit in his face and kick him in the balls, I deserve the butt whuppin' I'm going to get when he gets up.

If I leave the room. He might be content to leave me be.

Same sort of deal in the tolkeen war.

"Running away doesn't solve problems"

Quite untrue most of the time. Running away will solve lots of problems. Unless what ever you're running from chases you for prolonged periods of time.

It all depends on how fast you run, and how far the other is willing to chase. the CS were right next door. If they had to cross the continental US to get at Tolkeen there wouldn't be a war. Heck the Magic zone is bigger than tolkeen and much more dangerous, but the CS hasn't jumped them yet.

[Jefffar]

Just so you know, the Soviets ran away from Nazi - sort of. They moved all the stuff that was imporant to the war effort (ie factories) t the far side of the mountains and let the Nazi's gobble as much empty territory as they could, thining them out, trading miles for lives and ultimately exhausting the Germans and preparing them for a nasty counter offensive which ultimately reached Berlin.


Not that it was entirely the plan, but that's the way it played out.

I think Tolken should have run away. They should have evacuated the Non-Coms to Lazlo and the main factories otherwise out the CS reach. Then they could have lured the CS deep into Tolkien territory, perhaps into the city itself, fighting hard enough not to let the CS disengage, but still giving ground. Then, once the CS army was too far forward, deep inside terrain they couldn't manouvre their large armoured units in, the defenders of Tolkien would cut them off and swarmed them under with conventional, magical and extradimensonal forces.

Sure hte losses would be great even if they did win, but win or loose the population of Tolkien would be safe and the CS military would have been castrated.

[Toc Rat]

Just so you know, the Soviets ran away from Nazi - sort of. They moved all the stuff that was imporant to the war effort (ie factories) t the far side of the mountains and let the Nazi's gobble as much empty territory as they could, thining them out, trading miles for lives and ultimately exhausting the Germans and preparing them for a nasty counter offensive which ultimately reached Berlin.


Not that it was entirely the plan, but that's the way it played out.

I think Tolken should have run away. They should have evacuated the Non-Coms to Lazlo and the main factories otherwise out the CS reach. Then they could have lured the CS deep into Tolkien territory, perhaps into the city itself, fighting hard enough not to let the CS disengage, but still giving ground. Then, once the CS army was too far forward, deep inside terrain they couldn't manouvre their large armoured units in, the defenders of Tolkien would cut them off and swarmed them under with conventional, magical and extradimensonal forces.

Sure hte losses would be great even if they did win, but win or loose the population of Tolkien would be safe and the CS military would have been castrated.

The staretgy of the Soviets during WWII is what is known as a "Russian Run". Essentialy it is what a defender who has a L O T of land in their possesion can do in order to buy time. They simply trade huge areas of otherwise unimportant land for the time to build the needed forces to crush an invader. Obviously that was not the case with Tolkeen. They barely had little more then one major city and certainly not the thousands upon thousands of acres to trade for time.

In any event, adpoting the Russian Run/Scorched Earth strategy is not what has been suggested either on these boards or NPCs in canon. It's always "They should have just run!"

Eh, it really doesnt matter. I feel the entire SoT series was rather...searching for a suitable term...I'll go with "weak". In any event this has been a tangent and I will drop it now. Already to many hi-jacked threads, no need for me to add another to the list.

[Jefffar]

Obviously that was not the case with Tolkeen. They barely had little more then one major city and certainly not the thousands upon thousands of acres to trade for time.

No, but they could have evaced the non-combatants to Lazlo and their factories wherever else and kept their forces in place and fought the CS army with nothing to loose.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The sin of PRIDE is what did Tolkeen in. Along with very unfavorable location in realestate.

Had Tolkeen popped up in... Up state washington. The CS wouldn't even know they existed. They could take over the entire western seaboard and.... the CS wouldn't even know they existed. (( Even in the RUE the west coast on the other side of the "New" Rockies is totally unknown.))

But... They wern't far away. They were right on the doorstep. They were antagonistic. And prideful.

The leaders of Lazlo and New Lazlo were all like "Dude.. you don't WANT this fight. Move. LIVE. Save yourselves. Go some where, where you can live in peace. There's only TWO THIRDS of the contenent left.

Tolkeen went "_uck um! Let um come! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! Oh, and by the way, if you're not with us. WE'RE AGINST YOU TOO!"

(( Never realy understood alienating your enemy on the eve of battle but.. oh well))

Thing is the entire war campain series pointed out over and over and over and over again, NEITHER side was right. Both were wrong and both lowered themselves by entering into the un-needed war.


No.. Running away wouldn't solve everything. But it'd have given them time. Time to strengthen. Time to prepair. Time to hope for change in the leadership of the CS. Time to LEARN. Time to live.

[R Ditto]

Tolkeen could have also used Earth Warlocks to move stuff deep underground, along with mazes of tunnels (some of which are decoys/dead ends/trapped) to make it hard to navigate through them, in addition to having Earth Warlocks seal off unused entrances when they are done being used, and opening up other access points in other areas when they need to.

They could have gotten their non coms out of danger by evacuating them, and those who stay to fight would have plenty of underground areas to take cover in when they had to.

On a side note, I agree that Tolkeen should have relocated.

Because running away solves the problem? I am so tired of hearing that argument. Where would the world be today if the US had "run" from WWII Japan or Germany? What if Russia had packed up and moved in the face of the German invasion?

I'm not going to argue about how "evil" Tolkeen was for using demons to help them fight. That's not the issue. I'm just tired of hearing about how they should have "moved". Running away doesn't solve problems.

The US had a lot of stuff of interest to defend, strategic resources to keep out of the hand of the Japanese, their own places of strategic importance to defend, etc. They weren't going to just sit back and loose strategic locations needed for naval deployment so the Japanese could have had free ran over an entire ocean. For Germany, the Germans had gone after civilian targets before, they were sinking relief supplies to the British, and were also becoming a danger of sorts to US interests... that and thanks to the "We're to greedy and rich to listen to black out orders" idiots in the US who left entire areas lit up at night (resort towns and such), a few German U boats had plenty of help sinking US ships right off of our own coast, because of tons of bright lights making it easy for the U boats to spot ships as a big ship shaped black spot against a background of lights...

Russia had a LOT of area to defend, and has been said, they did sort of run at first, to get the Germans to over extend themselves.

Tolkeen had... no allies to defend, no areas of real strategic interest to protect, no real strategic resources to guard, and a bunch of killer bugs just the other side of the border... Not much there worth sacrificing a bunch of lives while defending...
The CS wasn't out to simply conquer Tolkeen, they were out to wipe Tolkeen off of the face of the planet... the fact they tried to use nukes just proves the CS was out to kill them all off.

In such cases, Tolkeen would have been better off relocating. Especially since they could have decimated the CS several times over... and thanks to their strategy and tactics (or lack thereof) whch of course resulted in them at least having enough brains to evacuate many people when the CS was on their door steps and building up for a final assault...

It's all about strategy, and a running away is a viable strateeg, also called a "strategic withdrawl", which I would call a "we're not stupid enough to stand, fight and die, so we're going to go someplace else and pull ourselves together so we can put up a good fight or otherwise give the attacker a reason to stop attacking."

Running away is not always a sign of fear or cowardice, sometimes it shows someone has enough courage and guts to swallow their pride and egos and to do what is right in the face of odds that cannot be easily dealt with, to live to fight another day instead of being led to the slaughter, or to otherwise not fight at a time when it wouldn't be right to fight.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Running away leave your back open to enemy fire.

Well yeah, if you let them get close enough to shoot you in the back and run in a straight line, with no rear guard. And don't check to see if somone IS shooting you in the back.

But... hopefully people that are smart enough to conjure magic and what not arn't quite that dumb.

Even in Aftermath, the normal refugees (( Non Combatants)) Have people watching their backs. They hired LARSENS Brigade to do it. (( Not their fault they got stuck up north)) and instead have the JAL watching their tails.

If you can fight though the JAL quick enough to catch the retreating refugees... well lol you deserve them.

"Leaving" Doesn't mean just fleeing into the wilderness. When tolkeen saw the military build up start. They could have went. "The CS is 10 times our size on a BAD day. Even if we literly killed 10 to their 1 we're still going to loose, we should leave before they're ready to trounce us."

And if the CS saw them leave, they might have LET them leave. (( After all, why fight a fight you've already won?))

Then again they might hve seen it as weakness and tried to pounce first. (( Possible))

If tolkeen was smart they'd have noticed the growth of the CS as they grew. Went "They hate us just for breathing. Maybe we should get while the gettin's good" and bailed before the CS rolled in on armored tread to kill them all.

But that's a "Best of" Senerio with hind sight being what it is and all.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Because running away solves the problem? I am so tired of hearing that argument. Where would the world be today if the US had "run" from WWII Japan or Germany? What if Russia had packed up and moved in the face of the German invasion?

I'm not going to argue about how "evil" Tolkeen was for using demons to help them fight. That's not the issue. I'm just tired of hearing about how they should have "moved". Running away doesn't solve problems.

In some people's minds., Yes,. Nazis Germany would control a large part of the world and Hilter's plans for a supercity might just have came true .

Lost Worlds : Hitler's Supercity. Airs on Monday November 20 10:00 PM

Hitler caused more death and destruction than anyone else in history. But he also planned to build on a massive scale and place a new Germany on a par with ancient Greece and Rome. Our investigators piece together a picture of how Hitler wanted Germany to look from the ruins of what was built and from plans of his architect Albert Speer. In Nuremberg, we recreate the Zeppelin Tribune: where 60,000 people could overlook a parade ground. We reveal the real purpose of the stadium Speer planned to hold the Olympic Games--with seating for 405,000 people. And we rebuild, with computer-generated images based on Speer's plans, the monuments Hitler planned for himself: the Triumphal Arch--twice the height, and four times the width of Paris's Arc de Triomphe--and the People's Hall--a structure so big the Eiffel Tower could fit inside it. Monstrous, intimidating, built on slave labor--this is the Lost World we'd now inhabit if WWII had gone differently.

[Braden Campbell]

The idiocy of Tolkeen was not in staying put, but in trying to match the Coalition in a stand-up, face-to-face fight.

True, the CS fights wars like its 1914 ("Just keep walking slowly, men. They have to run out of PPE sooner of later.") but they had the numbers and apparently inexhaustible supplies to do so.

What Tolkeen should have done is gone Afghanistan... harass the CS for years with small geurilla units until so many Deadboys have been killed by roadside bombs and suicide Quickflex, that it becomes politically unpleasant for the Coalition to remain in Minnesota.

While there are no mid-term elections in Chi-Town, there is always the threat of mass uprising by the populace or Military High Command. Eventually, Prosek would have decided to stop "staying the course".

[Toc Rat]

I did NOT start this thread. I know it has my name as being the one who posted it but I did not. A little issue I just wanted to make clear. I have already informed a moderator about the "glitch" we will call it, that shows I started this topic.

[Prince Artemis]

I can cite a war that very much reflects this discussion. The war of 1812. American ran south and because of it Canada was satisfied and went back home(after burning the white house down of course). Running can infact solve alot of problems especially when it comes to war. The further an attacking army gets from home the longer the supply lines and generally the weaker it becomes. Like tolkeen, america had plenty of places to run southward and it did so, and because of that they escaped defeat. There are no effective winners of that conflict. Mind you, canada was mostly on the 'leave us alone' message then the 'we want your land' message but the point still stands.

[Toc Rat]

I can cite a war that very much reflects this discussion. The war of 1812. American ran south and because of it Canada was satisfied and went back home(after burning the white house down of course). Running can infact solve alot of problems especially when it comes to war. The further an attacking army gets from home the longer the supply lines and generally the weaker it becomes. Like tolkeen, america had plenty of places to run southward and it did so, and because of that they escaped defeat. There are no effective winners of that conflict. Mind you, canada was mostly on the 'leave us alone' message then the 'we want your land' message but the point still stands.

I know I shouldn't bother posting but...

The CS is nothing like Canada during the war of 1812. Canada was NOT @#$% bent on the destruction of every single building, house and outhouse. The CS was. Canada was NOT killing every man, woman or child. The CS was.

As you said, Canada was content to burn the original White House and then leave. Not so with the CS, they (meaning Karl) would not have simply burned Tolkeen's capitol to the ground and then packed up and left.

Lets talk about this Tolkeen Run (trot?) idea for a bit. Lets just say they DID in fact pack up all the civilians (forcing many to leave their homes and homeland against their will) and left behind traps, salted fields and lots of summoned elementals to fight the encroaching CS. Lets go further and say that the bravery of the Tolkeen defenders was able to hold back the CS onslaught long enough for all the civies to get out. Where are they going to go? Yah, the north west has been mentioned. That's a nice place and all but it has the drawback of still being on the same continent as a LARGE empire that wants you and your magic using, D-Bee loving friends D E A D. No compromise, no talks, just you dead and buried (sometimes, they will also settle for rotting bodies on the battlefield).

Unless Tolkeen started a MASSIVE program of militarization it would eventualy face the CS again and it would lose...again. Even if they embarked on a program to become, in essence, a Techno-Magical version of the CS, they would still be at a disadvantage due to the CS having been building up the entire time since the fall of the 1st Tolkeen. The survivors would have to establish a initial city, building everything they needed. They would have to totaly re-orginize themselves in to an effectively entirely new nation.

As long as we are talking about "Should have..."

[Jefffar]

Space = Time.

If Tolkien had had more space between it nad the CS, it would have had more time.

If it had more space between it and hte CS the CS would have dealt with Lazlo first (and FQ likely would have been a part of that, rather than a splinter group).

But if it had more space, it wouldn't have been Tolkien.

The Tolkien-CS clash was written into the first editions of the main book. The ideologies are to disparate and it was only a matter of time before the CS would turn to it's North Western neighbour.

First it was the FOM, now it's Tolkien, next it's Lazlo. The CS is removing th magic nations that are too close to it for comfort one at a time.

Or rather they are removing themselves.

Their refusal to ally with each other against a common enemy has doomed them to die individually.

Unless the PCs do someting.

That is the point of Rifts, the PCs are there to change the world (not just survive it as some sugest). It may e a small change or it may be a big change, it depends on the group.

Before the SOT series, the Tolkien CS colict was the backdrop with which the most change may have been enacted in North America. Can the Players form an alliance of powers that wll stop the CS in time to save Tolkien? Can the Players cause the people of the Coalition States to overthrow their corupt and tyranical rulers in time to save Tolkien? Can the players buy enough time for Tolkien's defenders to rally and fight off the CS?

Now, the story has advanced 10 years and while power creep has mad ethe heroes mor epowerful, it has also made the situation much worse. Tolkien has fallen, the CS, though temporarily weak, now has only to worry about Lazlo - who is busy trying to fight off 20 million alien insect-men. The forces of good on North America are either surrounded, scatteredor corrupted. The questions have changed.

In the time it takes the Coalition to digest Tolkien, can the Players prepare Lazlo for war? In the time it takes the Coalition to digest Tolkien, can the Players recruit alles for Lazlo's cause? In the time it takes the Coalition to digest Tolkien, can the players destabalize the CS enough to cause a change in leadership? In the time it takes the Coalition to digest Tolkien, can the players win the war agaisnt the Xiticix so that the forces of Lazlo can ome home? In the time it takes the Coalition to digest Tolkien, can the players prevent Free Quebec from allying with the CS in a campaign to destroy Lazlo?

I view the SOT as a setting change more than anyhting else. You can play Rifts Pre-Siege, during the Siege or Aftermath as you like. I think the strategy and tactics of the Siege (on both parts) could have been more plausible, but the ultimate result (a lone Tolkien conquored by the CS) I think is just about right.

[Jefffar]

Uh, is it worth pointing out that the Canadians did NOT burn the white house in 1812? And quite frankly, if tolkeen had moved they would have had to retreat through hostile territory, facing monsters and bandits and such. Would have been better, but not much.

The Canadian and British forces did sack Washington during the war of 1812.

As for moving, it depends on the way that they move. If they moved overland, they could hav marched through Xiticix army. But then again, it's foolish to beleive that a large body of people could move through Xiticix territory and survive, right?

There are dangers in all places on Rifts Earth . . . the question is, do you moe the bulk of your populace to where the normal background violence of Bandits and monsters is happening or do you keep them next to the hostile empire that wishes to enslave/kill them?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Don't get me wrong. I actually LIKED the SoT books. I have them all. Both sides made GLARING mistakes and paid for them in blood. Some of the stuff was... iffy, but I liked the books. I liked the out come. It was cool for me.

I didn't start this thread either. (( though my post from another thread was quoted)) It was just a statement, that was printed in the books themselves. In black and white. That it could have been avoided.

I like the war in my games. I had fun playing though it. On BOTH sides.

And the point of the books were to show the reflections of the opposing sides. How each was just as bad as the other. How each lowered themselves. How redeption could be found for each side. About the abject futality of the war. How totally unnessisary it was. It wasn't just a shoot um up thing. But that's glossed over in part.

Hind sight is 20/20. Arm Chair generals never get shot.

I like the Rifts game and I personally think the game is richer for the war having happened.

My group is based out of Northern Gun. They watched the war (( and the one in FQ)) With lots of interest (( and got paid to fight in it)) but yeah, the war does open up a MILLION Games to play.

That's another reason I like it.

[Kryzbyn]

I agree with pepsi.

They did not run becasue they did not think themsleves facing a superior foe.
They thought they could win.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Tolkien never cut and run.

He fought admirably in World War One, even as all of his best friends died around him.

~ Josh

[Chuck McDaniel]

No, they didn't run because they weren't French .

[RainOfSteel]

Tolkien never cut and run.

He fought admirably in World War One, even as all of his best friends died around him.

Thank you, thank you.

You saved me from having to say something similar.

[cornholioprime]

.

What Tolkeen should have done is gone Afghanistan... harass the CS for years with small geurilla units until so many Deadboys have been killed by roadside bombs and suicide Quickflex, that it becomes politically unpleasant for the Coalition to remain in Minnesota.

That wouldn't have worked against the CS.

There are exactly TWO ways to combat asymmetrical warfare.

The first method is to get the native populace to smoke out the insurgents....usually sucessful although usually time-consuming.

The second method....is for the symmetrical force to kill everything in the region that moves.

Guess which method the CS consistently uses on its enemies even when there is no insurgency??

[RainOfSteel]

• Run Away: Tolkeen was advised to run away by Lazlo (Plato and the Council) and Erin Tarn. Canonically speaking, they refused to help Tolkeen because its leadership had turned to evil. IMO, evil was able to infiltrate Tolkeen's leadership because King Creed saw, years before the beginning of the war, that Lazlo would not help. After all, he knew Erin Tarn very well, and in his heart, he probably know what the cowardly old lady was going to say in the end. It led him to do terrible things in the hopes of protecting his people and land, and more importantly to him personally in the end, his rulership and position.
• Stand and Fight: Tolkeen stood and fight, canonically, because of the pride of King Creed, built upon his madness, combined with the lust for violence of Corin Scard, and the various personal agendas of various evil members of King Creed's fellow leaders, who fed the king's ego, etc., etc., yada, yada, yada.
• Evil Pays: Nothing like the Coalition States triumphant to show that being evil does pay, and that running away from your problem really would have been the best solution.
• Tolkeen Redux: Now, if Lazlo, the NG/MI alliance, and Erin Tarn possessed collective backbones from the beginning, and had worked with Tolkeen for decades to build up a solid front against the Coalition States, the story might have been a quite different one. Karl Prosek might never have launched the war, he might never have forced Free Quebec to temporarily splinter away.
• The Xiticix: With the CS and the Tolkeen/Lazlo alliance facing off against one another for a protracted number of years, the Xiticix Invasion will come swooping in upon them. The initial attacks wreak havoc upon the civilian infrastructure of the North American powers. This forces the various sides to unite, or at least fight vs. the Xiticix without fighting against each other. Even Dunscon sends independently operated demonic laced armies to fight the Xiticix (but only temporarily, and only because he wants a North America left to rule for himself).
• A War for Earth: Humans, d-bees, magi, borgs, and even perhaps a spearhead army of Atlantis meet up and drive home an attack upon the Xiticix. The Atlantean army retreats before the job is finished, and the North American forces are exhausted and unable to finish off the hardened Xiticix primary hives, although the vast majority of Xiticix are killed. The CS unleashes city-killer fusion bombs in the ten megaton range upon the primary hives, to no effect. It is later learned that queens can psychically mitigate the effectiveness of nuclear explosions (a new found ability, never before observed for obvious reasons).
• Facing the Truth: The bottom end of the CS High Command, along with countless troopers, having been on the front lines of the war against the Xiticix, have seen first hand magi and d-bees saving their lives and killing the enemy, as well as healing them and their treasured comrades in arms. When they return from the war, they see the truth about Karl Prosek's lies is clear to them. A serious rebellion begins against the CS's leadership.
• Living in a New Age of Chaos: The armies of the major North American powers have all been smashed. The Xiticix are reduced by 99%, but are still around. The Calgary demons and the Mexico vampires are still around, along with many other threats. Atlantis' slave gathering activities have doubled. With so much devastation, the availability of new high tech gear of all types plummets. Hoarding and battlefield scavenging become a high priority. It is a hard scrabble, re-post apocalyptic landscape.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Tolkien never cut and run.

He fought admirably in World War One, even as all of his best friends died around him.

Thank you, thank you.

You saved me from having to say something similar.

You're welcome.

I just couldn't stand by... err sit by... and watch people smear Prof. Tolkien in such away, especially considering how admirable of a soldier he was.



~ Josh

[Kryzbyn]

Aye..eventually Prosek will learn that he cannot change the destiny of humanity by himself...
The only problem is who can he side with and realisticly keep his people dumbed down?

He can't side with lazlo...FoM (wouldn't happen anyway too much bad blood)...Psyscape?

Siding with any one of these would show the people of the CS that not all ____ are bad and should be eliminated.

Tough spot he's painted himself into.

I would, however like to see this happen eventually, and see the meta-plot repercussions.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the CS have and use psychics... they're frowned upon but they're there. Then add in the Dog boys and "Human Mutants" Re: Psi Stalkers.

Psychics isn't seen as that bad... so it's a hop skip and a jump....

Thing is... with this "Mystery rifts" thing.... what if they go "CS CIVAL WAR" on us?

(( Not psychics aginst non. Just.... a civil war with in the CS... ))

[Mech-Viper Prime]

honestly like i said before the proseks could easy change the direction of the coalition in a "civil war" under the complete control of the proseks
Karl does the hard line bit
Jojo does the new way with the backing of mages (vanguard) and non-humans(mutant animals)

with the old guard making the way for the new guard and the Proseks still in power.

[RainOfSteel]

Why would NG/MI side with Tolkeen?

Because siding with the Coalition States is a death sentence for the leaders of the NG/MI alliance, and a deathknell for their nations.

With the exception of Free Quebec, the leaders of the Iron Heart, Lone Star, and Missouri definitely exist purely at the sufferance of Karl Prosek.

Karl will not allow anyone or any nation with a shred of independence to exist.

Now that Tolkeen is gone (PA109 and on), the NG/MI will not have to be conquered, as they have accepted elements of the CS into their lands. This will inevitably lead to CS propaganda, infiltration, and the eventual subsumption of the NG/MI as the Coalition State of Michigan. Any opposition to this campaign (conducted primarily by Chi-Town with support from Iron Heart), will be ruthlessly crushed. The former leaders of these two states would, one day, be announced as traitorous magic users and d-bee sympathizers. They would never be seen again. Karl's hand-picked successors would be waiting in the wings to "rescue" the people from the acts of the traitors.

This should be obvious to the leaders of the NG/MI. Should be, being the key phrase. In my Rifts universe, the obvious was, shall we say, obvious. The NG/MI pair sided with Tolkeen as the only way to go on living.

[RainOfSteel]

honestly like i said before the proseks could easy change the direction of the coalition in a "civil war" under the complete control of the proseks
Karl does the hard line bit
Jojo does the new way with the backing of mages (vanguard) and non-humans(mutant animals)

with the old guard making the way for the new guard and the Proseks still in power.

Their own home-grown civil war? That certainly would be tricky.

So, you think Karl can overcome his hatred for magi?

[Nightmaster]

I think he mean that Joseph II would go for magic, while Karl keep to the old ways of hatred.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

honestly like i said before the proseks could easy change the direction of the coalition in a "civil war" under the complete control of the proseks
Karl does the hard line bit
Jojo does the new way with the backing of mages (vanguard) and non-humans(mutant animals)

with the old guard making the way for the new guard and the Proseks still in power.

Their own home-grown civil war? That certainly would be tricky.

So, you think Karl can overcome his hatred for magi?

tricky or not karl and jojo might be able to do it , two prosek "going at each other" who would agrue that it's a ploy , I dont think karl has a hated for magi, its more of a ploy to rally the masses then any thing else

[Nightmaster]

Dont see why Tolkeen would be a loser.

If joined with MI/NG, Tolkeen would have enough force to make the CS stop its actions. Why? simple.

One thing is to launch a war against a single nation other is to fight 3 nations. Also, if instead of just Tolkeen the opposition against the CS were also MI/NG, Lazlo would not have the attitude of not going to war. There is power in numbers, they do know that.

Now a Alliance between Tolkeen, Northern Gun, Manistique and Lazlo would be a power block that the CS would not dare attack. Not until they have deal with Free Quebec.

[Prince Artemis]

On June 12, 1812, the United States of America declared war on Great Britain. There had been a long period of simmering disputes between the nations, including Northwest Territory land disputes, the British impressment of American sailors, and British blockades of American commerce with France during the Napoleanic wars. It was the War of 1812.

In August of 1814, the British landed to the south of Washington, D.C., and marched inland. The only resistance the British Army encountered as they marched towards Washington was the brief Battle of Bladensburg in Maryland, a last ditch attempt to defend the city. Because the organized American Army was well to the north near Canada, only a hastily organized militia was available to defend the capital. For the British, this allowed a quick victory after which they were free to enter the city.

The King's Own was one of the units who marched into Washington. In retaliation for the torching of the Canadian capitol of York (now called Toronto), and to disgrace President Madison, they set fire to the president's residence on August 24, 1814, burning down the White House.

Just thought I'd put this out there.

[RainOfSteel]

[...] What are the odds that they [NG/MI] could survive against the CS?

Not good, but much better than rolling over and dying.

Besided, it wouldn't be the NG/MI would suffered, it would be Tolkeen because they are the ones doing the majority of the fighting and dying, with NG/MI's support.

And why does a trade agreement mean they will automatically be absorbed?

The CS would not conclude any mere "trade agreement" with any nation that was smaller and weaker than itself, or one that did not fully sympathize with all (or most) of the CS's ideals. One need merely read the CS military report at the beginning of MercTown to see how the CS views its neighbors, and its long term policies toward them.

To Karl Prosek, it would be step one in closing his fist around an annoying center of opposition that has long been selling weapons to all sorts of enemies of the CS that have gone on to kill CS citizens.

I believe that the leaders of NG/MI would have seen this offer as the bogus pile of baloney it was from the beginning.

The US has trade agreements with China, and no one has been absorbed.

The US is not a parallel for the Coalition States by any stretch of the imagination, and so that is an invalid comparison.

China is not a parallel for NG/MI by any stretch of the imagination, and so that is an invalid comparison.

The US is not headed up by a Diabolical Evil mastermind whose sole intent is to wipe out all magi, d-bees, and anyone who is independent of his control.

China is far too large to try and absorb.

China's has 3-4 times the population of the US.

Chi-Town alone has many more multiples over the population of NG/MI. (Even after the SoT slaughter, no less.)

--------------------------------------

If you want to go for a parallel for the CS and NG/MI, try Nazi Germany and Austria or Czechoslovakia.

[Jefffar]

If Tolkeen and NG/MI and Lazlo had teamed up, the CS would have been stopped in its tracks.

If 2 of the 3 had teamed up, the CS could not have won the war.

[Nightmaster]

I fail to see how NG/MI teaming up with the CS is them rolling over and dying. Why, with an entire continent to retake, would the CS bother to usurp the control of NG/MI? And I fail to see how NG/MI teaming up with Tolkeen is any better for them than teaming up with the CS. Nor do I see why if NG/MI teamed up with Tolkeen Lazlo would have automatically joined in. Besides, NG/MI builds and sells technology. If you had to choose sides, who would you join? Fine, so US and China may not be a valid comparison. Perhaps Nazi Germany and Italy. The germans didn't invade Italy till the death of Mussolini. Why? Because the Italian gov. did everything the Nazis needed without having to waste troops occupying the country. I think NG/MI did the smart thing. By playing along, they will be the last ones to be attacked militarily, and can continue to prepare in secret if something goes wrong, and make a ton of cash doing it. And the more magic nations that are destroyed, the more demand increases for technology.

I dont have MercTown but the CS uses the concept of protection (weapons, vehicles, etc) and high technology to lure small kingdoms and nations to then.

Now if you have someone that sells that technology, weapons and so on without asking in eschange to then to become members of a nation, your main tactic becomes crap. I dont see the CS accepting that.

No matter how is portraited in the CWC, the CS would never accept another dealer of weapons and technology in North America besides itself so it is just a matter of time before the CS bully NG/MI to join then or else. The trade treatise is the first step to cut then out of possible allies when that demand arive (because now NG/MI are CS allies not?).

[RainOfSteel]

I fail to see how NG/MI teaming up with the CS is them rolling over and dying.

Then you didn't read what I wrote, for I explained exactly how it worked.

Why, with an entire continent to retake, would the CS bother to usurp the control of NG/MI?

Why, with Tolkeen being absolutely no threat whatsoever, would the CS waste time, resources, and energy over decades antagonizing them to the point where warfare would be required?

Answer: Karl Prosek.

And I fail to see how NG/MI teaming up with Tolkeen is any better for them than teaming up with the CS.

It lets their leaders go on living for longer, and their corporate leaders go on living.

Or did you think that the CS' corporations would allow competition for long?

Answer: No, they wouldn't. (Much less Karl allowing it.)

Nor do I see why if NG/MI teamed up with Tolkeen Lazlo would have automatically joined in.

I never said anything about Lazlo automatically joining up of NG/MI teamed up with Tolkeen.

I assert that Plato should have (even though he didn't) had a backbone and helped defend Tolkeen.

Sure, the canonical King Creed had turned to evil.

Plato was writing off the chance to redeem both him and the nation (and so did Erin Tarn).

I have hypothesized that Plato was, in fact, an agent of Dragcona in Atlantis, as this would be a good explanation for Plato's cowardice.

Not to mention that allowing Tolkeen to fall now places Lazlo one step closer to having the same thing happen to them. For unlike NG/MI, who only would be taken over as a misguided mostly-human nation, Lazlo stands to be wiped off the map.

NG/MI, Lazlo, and New Lazlo all fully and totally supporting Tolkeen from the beginning would have kept Tolkeen (and King Creed) away from evil and would have fully stonkered the CS' attack (although, of course, with great losses).

The benefits? The CS is kept away from NG/MI and Lazlo for far, far longer than could actually occur given the canonical PA109 setup noted in Aftermath.

Besides, NG/MI builds and sells technology. If you had to choose sides, who would you join?

The side I thought wouldn't kill me (or turn me into a powerless, lickspittle puppet) at the first convenient opportunity.

Fine, so US and China may not be a valid comparison. Perhaps Nazi Germany and Italy. The germans didn't invade Italy till the death of Mussolini. Why? Because the Italian gov. did everything the Nazis needed without having to waste troops occupying the country.

Hitler wasn't nearly as big a control freak as Karl Prosek.

In any event, Mussolini did not cooperate 100% with the Nazis.

Mussolini allowed laws that were more lenient than Hitler's, especially in regard to Jews. Hitler had a problem with that. Karl would have a far bigger problem with anything like that.

Mages and d-bees were allowed in NG/MI, and were undoubtedly major customers (let's face it, mages buy guns (and if you stick with the pure RMB, they buy armor, too)). There was no supporting general view, from what little we know of the nations, for an anti-mage/d-bee movement and scape-goating. Not to mention the loss in revenue.

On top of that, there was an attitude of non-cooperation on the part of most Italians.

Karl was already having major problems with Free Quebec over exactly this issue. FQ eventually succeeded over it.

How, exactly, do you propose that NG/MI wouldn't be subject to exactly the same treatment as the much more powerful (and military valuable) Free Quebec?

By playing along, they will be the last ones to be attacked militarily [...]

They have no way of knowing that they will be attacked last.

Actual canon evidence suggests, very strongly, that the CS would just take over the countries. Either the leaders would give in and become puppets, or they would be disposed of.

I think that the leaders of the NG/MI would not, under any circumstances, want to give up their power.

[...] and can continue to prepare in secret if something goes wrong, and make a ton of cash doing it. And the more magic nations that are destroyed, the more demand increases for technology.

If the various nations are all destroyed, and the CS becomes dominant and fully triumphant, there won't be any weapons markets, and everything that every government and corporate leader in the NG/MI will have done up to that point will have been for naught.

Best to bet on stopping that at the get go.

The only thing, the one and only thing that I have seen that recommends NG/MI to siding with the CS is the Naruni issue, that is, NG/MI's fear of being supplanted be the Naruni.

However, that fear is only a possibility, an unknown of the future that no one really knows will happen and something that could potentially be averted by other means (out-competing them locally, black-balling them in towns, etc.).

Siding with the CS is certain death or puppetry for the NG/MI's leaders, IMO.

[Toc Rat]

The only thing, the one and only thing that I have seen that recommends NG/MI to siding with the CS is the Naruni issue, that is, NG/MI's fear of being supplanted be the Naruni.

However, that fear is only a possibility, an unknown of the future that no one really knows will happen and something that could potentially be averted by other means (out-competing them locally, black-balling them in towns, etc.).

Siding with the CS is certain death or puppetry for the NG/MI's leaders, IMO.

Rain of Steel has it correct. The NG/MI choice to ally themselves with the CS is a short sighted decision. In the long run they will be forced to become states, by one means or another.

[Nightmaster]

I'm pretty sure Tolkeen could be considered a threat, given it's distance both to the capital and to other states. And if I recall CWC, the CS gave NG/MI an excellent trade agreement. And since Naruni weapons are superior, how exactly are they going to compete? Who knows how long that would have taken? Better to wipe them out now. Business is about money. And as for becoming a state, the leaders at El Dorado are still there. There hasn't been any huge change up. Besides, the continent will come under CS control sooner or later regardless, unless there is a change in the leadership. Better to team up with the CS and pray for the change, then join a doomed nation and be eliminated. And since NG/MI didn't have Poor Yorick or any of that other goofy stuff Tolkeen used to prevent CS long range technology attacks, I'm pretty sure NG/MI would have been crushed easily at the beginning. Their decision to join was the best thing they could do. Whether it was good for them, well, who knows.

Although the Naruni wares were much better than those of NG/MI, they were also at least 2 to 3 times more expensive.

It would have taken years to the Naruni to even begin to really be a threat to then. Also, if the Naruni stayed a bit more on Rifts-Earth, they eventually would offer a deal to NG/MI for then to be their representative on Rifts Earth.

El Dorado... yes it was been years, but they wish to join the CS... NG/MI dont. Also you forgot that both NG/MI sells weapons and technology to ANYONE that have the credits, no matter if they are D-Bee, mages or whatever. That sort of atitude is what sting the CS most. It cuts in their main policy of offering the same things in exchange of the community/nation joining the CS, since NG/MI simple ask for credits in exchange.

As for the long range capacities of the CS, NG/MI are not without defensive technology against missiles. Also, both Tolkeen and Lazlo in such situation (an alliance between then) would share intel data and even some defensive tech with NG/MI to prevent that the CS crush then with missiles.

You also forget that even though the CS have lots of missiles, launching then against a single target is sure to spell doom for then if they face more than one enemy at a time. It leaves their flank opened to attack by the others, tell the allies of your target of the missiles battery position and so on. I dont think that the CS would do that if they faced a alliance between all those nations.

[RainOfSteel]

I'm pretty sure Tolkeen could be considered a threat, given it's distance both to the capital and to other states.

Do you have any canon references that cite Tolkeen as an actual threat to the CS prior to the CS beginning its long-term rant campaign (lasting many years) about having to "deal with Tolkeen", and containing many other threats? (As opposed to just a threat that the CS believes exists. There is a difference, a rather large one.)

And if I recall CWC, the CS gave NG/MI an excellent trade agreement.

The quality of the trade agreement has nothing to do with the political reality of the situation.

A sharp leadership of the NG/MI would have realized that even if the CS places nicey-nicey for 5-10 years, if it suddenly takes you out when you've been lulled into a false sense of security, that a cutesy trade agreement made no difference in the long run.

Why would they think this? Chi-Town rehtoric about Tolkeen. Chi-Town rehtoric about the 2nd most powerful CS member, Free Quebec.

And since Naruni weapons are superior, how exactly are they going to compete?

You seem to have skipped what I wrote again.

I specifically mentioned two methods (underhanded ones, to be sure) by which NG/MI could compete against the Naruni.

Did they seem unlikely methods of competition to you?

Who knows how long that would have taken?

Who knows if it would have been necessary?

Business is about money.

Living to spend the money the way you want to is more important.

Greed gets you nothing if you get nothing in the end.

And as for becoming a state, the leaders at El Dorado are still there.

They seem to be puppets as far as I can tell. They do what Karl tells them, and that's it.

That's another reason for NG/MI not wanting to join the CS.

Besides, the continent will come under CS control sooner or later regardless,

That would have been the whole point of joining up with Tolkeen. Stopping the CS.

Better to team up with the CS and pray for the change, then join a doomed nation and be eliminated.

Except that the nation wouldn't have been doomed, except by NG/MI's choice.

(Ok, Lazlo's cowardice played a part, too.)

And since NG/MI didn't have Poor Yorick or any of that other goofy stuff Tolkeen used to prevent CS long range technology attacks, I'm pretty sure NG/MI would have been crushed easily at the beginning.

NG/MI wouldn't have been engaged. The CS was locked in a conflict with Tolkeen and FQ.

Their decision to join was the best thing they could do.

If they want to dance to the tune of an distant piper, then yes. (Or be killed if they object.)

If they want to be actual leaders making actual decisions, instead of lickspittle puppets, then no.

Whether it was good for them, well, who knows.

How can NG/MI's decision to join the CS be the best thing they could do if we question whether it was good for them?

Answer: It can't be.