A gripe about Rifts Ultamite

[Shiva7]

Absolutely... hence... *points up at the somewhat oversized post a few spaces up...*

Though I have yet to tackle weight capacity... I think a standard ruling there will need more work, but I /feel/ a Robot should be stronger than a supernatural critter carrying-capacity wise... I'll think on it.

In the end, whether bots are stringer than beasts is a personal preference. I eliminated all the problems with the PS system Palladium uses by unifying it. Conversion is easy...

I have come to prefer using the beings SDC stats as the basis for a low magic environment, thus when a creature enters a MDC environment, the PS is simply multiplied by 10 and the damage is increased as per my chart. Robots and tech that are not affected by magic do not see their Ps scores change in an SDC environment, that wy I tend to keep bots weaker than the Supernatural.

My table doesn't change the PS heirarchy, just creates a simple table used by all beings. It's up the the GM and Players to convert over in whatever way they want. PB has always had Supernatural beings at the top of the heirarchy, so I have grown accustomed to them being stronger than others, but it really doesn't matter in the end; so long as the rules allow for easy customization.

[MikePGS]

I know this hasn't been posted on in almost a year, but i just recently got rifts ultimate (I've been playing rifts off and on... mostly on since i was 13 or so and felt for the longest time that a severe update was due) and the thing that annoyed me most was the dragon hatchlings. What was wrong with the old names? You can pretty much identify the older dragons... but i just found it kind of annoying that they changed the names, and pretty much just the names. Well of course the stats are different, but i always thought great horned dragon was a cool name.

[RainOfSteel]

Live, little topic, live!

------------------------------

In specific, I refer you to:

Deleted Dragons

The dragons OH the Dragons, Why?

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In general, I refer you to:

Rifts Ultimate Edition (RUE) Topics Reference

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i was thumbing thru it and notice and thought wth is with the "rogue" scholar and scientist bit? are they part thief ? i didnt notice pick pockets or prowl on the occ skills , if the scholar is from lazlo is the scholar still a rogue scholar?

if the scholar is a cs scholar is he/she a rogue?

[RainOfSteel]

if the scholar is a cs scholar is he/she a rogue?

CS scholars aren't rogue, they're the Fake Scholar OCC.

[dark brandon]

if the scholar is a cs scholar is he/she a rogue?

No. A CS scholar would probably be much like a CS psychic. If they are part of the CS military in some way they are better off (usually they would probably be in some sort of "office" position.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if the scholar is a cs scholar is he/she a rogue?

No. A CS scholar would probably be much like a CS psychic. If they are part of the CS military in some way they are better off (usually they would probably be in some sort of "office" position.

I was thinking more of the civilian side of the CS, I dont buy into the the entire CS is a military type of junk

[MikePGS]

i was thumbing thru it and notice and thought wth is with the "rogue" scholar and scientist bit? are they part thief ? i didnt notice pick pockets or prowl on the occ skills , if the scholar is from lazlo is the scholar still a rogue scholar?

if the scholar is a cs scholar is he/she a rogue?

Just the fact that they're scholars at all makes them rouges, it has nothing to do with stealing or any of the normal types of "rouge".

[Kryzbyn]

Wait wait...
KK question...
Ive got a 5th level cyberknight with a "chain with broken link" tattoo...
When activated, he adds 6 to his PS and it becomes supernatural.
His Psi Sword does 4d6 MD (Master psychic, fencing skill).
I know that you can not add "mundane" PS stat bonuses to damage for MDC weapons, but I figured if he used his Tattoo he could add it to damage because his PS is now SN. So, does his Psi Sword now do 6d6 (punch damage for 41+ SN PS) or 4d6+SnPS bonus or 1d6x10 (10d6) from combining the 2?
I like the 1d6x10, personally...
"5th level CK becomes a living Cuisinart with Paired Weapons...film at 11".

[Killer Cyborg]

Wait wait...
KK question...
Ive got a 5th level cyberknight with a "chain with broken link" tattoo...
When activated, he adds 6 to his PS and it becomes supernatural.
His Psi Sword does 4d6 MD (Master psychic, fencing skill).
I know that you can not add "mundane" PS stat bonuses to damage for MDC weapons, but I figured if he used his Tattoo he could add it to damage because his PS is now SN. So, does his Psi Sword now do 6d6 (punch damage for 41+ SN PS) or 4d6+SnPS bonus or 1d6x10 (10d6) from combining the 2?
I like the 1d6x10, personally...
"5th level CK becomes a living Cuisinart with Paired Weapons...film at 11".

Supernatural Strength does not add to melee weapon damage.

[Kryzbyn]

Not in any way?
Then why would a SN creature ever use a melee weapon?
That's got to be the dumbest, short-sighted rule I've seen yet.

He can lift more...he can carry more...he can hit harder...
But if he happens to be holding something, he is just as strong as anyone else? LAME

[Killer Cyborg]

Not in any way?Then why would a SN creature ever use a melee weapon?

Because sometimes a melee weapon does more damage than a punch.

That's got to be the dumbest, short-sighted rule I've seen yet.

No, the dumbest, most short-sighted rule so far is having Supernatural Strength deal mega-damage in the first place.
If you can swallow that, then this shouldn't stretch your jaws one bit.

[Kryzbyn]

Well, I'm gonna house rule that one so that he can apply his PS bonus at least. That's just dumb.
Maybe they should have scaled that a bit better...like max 1d6 md punch or add 1d6 to md melee damage...

[dark brandon]

if the scholar is a cs scholar is he/she a rogue?

No. A CS scholar would probably be much like a CS psychic. If they are part of the CS military in some way they are better off (usually they would probably be in some sort of "office" position.

I was thinking more of the civilian side of the CS, I dont buy into the the entire CS is a military type of junk

Isn't it a military state? Perhaps it's my limited understanding of politics and such, but I've always viewed it as most people work for or with the CS. A CS scholar for example would be a teacher who teaches "privlaged" how to read, battle tactics...ect...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if the scholar is a cs scholar is he/she a rogue?

No. A CS scholar would probably be much like a CS psychic. If they are part of the CS military in some way they are better off (usually they would probably be in some sort of "office" position.

I was thinking more of the civilian side of the CS, I dont buy into the the entire CS is a military type of junk

Isn't it a military state? Perhaps it's my limited understanding of politics and such, but I've always viewed it as most people work for or with the CS. A CS scholar for example would be a teacher who teaches "privlaged" how to read, battle tactics...ect...

Coalition never seemed a military state with civilians holding power in free quebec, lone star and iron heart shows the military might be powerful ,its not as powerful as one might think.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, I'm gonna house rule that one so that he can apply his PS bonus at least. That's just dumb.
Maybe they should have scaled that a bit better...like max 1d6 md punch or add 1d6 to md melee damage...

A pixie who can only lift 120 lbs can power punch for 1d4 MD (1d4x100 SDC).
A strong human who can lift 1200 lbs can power punch for 1d4+15x2 SDC (max of 38 SDC).

Until the stupidity of this unbalance is fixed, trying to patch anything else is just spitting on the Hindenburg.

The other thing to consider is how things work with normal humans and melee weapons.
A normal human punch does 1d4 SDC.
If this normal human picks up a knife that does 1d6 SDC, he does NOT inflict 1d4+1d6 SDC damage with his attacks.
He only inflicts the damage of the weapon; 1d6 SDC.
Punch damage is irrelvent.

By that same token, if the human picks up a grapefruit that does 1d2 SDC damage, he doesn't inflict 1d4+1d2 SDC damage. He only inflicts the 1d2 SDC damage from the grapefruit.
Punch damage is still irrelvent.

So if you want to make things more consistant, then Supernatural creatures should inflict weapon damage regardless of whether their punch damage is higher.
Or go the other way and rule that that guy with a grapefruit gets his 1d4 punch damage when he beats somebody in the head with it.

[dark brandon]

Well, I'm gonna house rule that one so that he can apply his PS bonus at least. That's just dumb.
Maybe they should have scaled that a bit better...like max 1d6 md punch or add 1d6 to md melee damage...

A pixie who can only lift 120 lbs can power punch for 1d4 MD (1d4x100 SDC).
A strong human who can lift 1200 lbs can power punch for 1d4+15x2 SDC (max of 38 SDC).

Until the stupidity of this unbalance is fixed, trying to patch anything else is just spitting on the Hindenburg.

The other thing to consider is how things work with normal humans and melee weapons.
A normal human punch does 1d4 SDC.
If this normal human picks up a knife that does 1d6 SDC, he does NOT inflict 1d4+1d6 SDC damage with his attacks.
He only inflicts the damage of the weapon; 1d6 SDC.
Punch damage is irrelvent.

By that same token, if the human picks up a grapefruit that does 1d2 SDC damage, he doesn't inflict 1d4+1d2 SDC damage. He only inflicts the 1d2 SDC damage from the grapefruit.
Punch damage is still irrelvent.

So if you want to make things more consistant, then Supernatural creatures should inflict weapon damage regardless of whether their punch damage is higher.
Or go the other way and rule that that guy with a grapefruit gets his 1d4 punch damage when he beats somebody in the head with it.

Interestingly, A human with a knife and a PS <16 can inflict 1d6+ps damage with a knife, while a SN creature with a weapon does not.

[Pepsi Jedi]

well i'm a late commer to this thread, but i have read through it (not quite every single little sylable but close enough) and i have to agree with alot of the arguments put forth thus far.

yes RUE was a blessing and it was well worth the money i spent on it. Rifts was in desperate need of an overhaul, not that it got the overhaul i was hoping for but what was done was certainly a giant leap forward.

I agree with you here. I thought it was a good leap forward and a much needed overhaul. Granted it's over 15 years in the making so there's no hope to please all of the people with every single thing I think it did a good job.

#1 Cyber Knights
holy christmas! i love the update to the CK, PSI powers better defined, the new Psi Sword abilities alone give reason enough to play a Ck on its merrit. but (always a but it seems) the friggen HtH Zen combat drives me looney! it does not fit with the concept of the character from what i understood a CK to be.

solution ... drop the friggen Zen combat b******t and you got yourself a great OCC. so that's what i did, replaced CK Zen HtH with Zanji Shinjen-something-or-other from Japan. Blamo now i'm happy with a CK all around.

Eh, they explained it in the Cyberknights book. Alot of people had problems with it because it came "late" in the rifts history and mythology. I'm fine with it. It's how the class was invisioned to start and puts the 'Cyber" in cyber knights. but yeah, if you don't like it, just don't use it.

#2 Pop Can Heads aka Crazies
holy smoke! i read the change to the description of the MOM implants - huh? - they are pea-sized now? i thought that in Mindworks they used moslty gargoyles, brodkill and other giants to experiment on (not exclusively mind you) because the inherent problem with MOM tech was the miniaturization process which caused all the crazy goodness. not to mention every gargoyle or brodkill also has pop-cans sticking out from their coconuts. i doubt very much that they would care about some human fascination with the prestige or the image of having pop-cans sticking out of ones knoggin.

solution ... ignore it completely, didn't happen that blurb does not exist.

This was actually explained pretty well. When they started making the crazies they were using the old nob head kind because that's what they found. Over the 300 years they found the "better" kind and the pea sized implants became an "option". By then there was already a mythos about the nob kind. Now... you have to be just a little nuts to be a Crazy to start with so I could totally see Many (( not all)) of them going. "I WANT people to know I have the M.O.M. give me the nobs. Those that didn't want the nobs, probably don't get them. Better to blend in if you want that secret power thing going on. Sort of like some Juicers hide their drug harness under clothes and stuff. But not all. It's a personal PREFERENCE thing, that gives you options. If you don't want the pea sized ones, have your char ask for the nobs. If you don't want anyone ELSE getting them, tell them the place where they undergo the MOM Conversion is out of pea sized ones and only has Nobs, or NEVER upgraded to pea sized ones and only use the nobs. Simple solution with out breking cannon.

#3 Supernatural PS and Damage
well i borrowed from Nightspawn (go ahead sue me McFarlane) where it states pretty plainly that supernatural punch does stack with weapon damage. 2d6 punch plus 2d6 sword equals a 4d6 damage potential.

i have also implemented a few other balancing changes as well when it comes to strength. for example ps15 x10 and ps16 x20 - wha? - what happened that was so special between 15 and 16?

solution ... i changed it so that everyone now carries ps x10 and lifts ps x20 no matter what your PS is. i also say that augmented, robotic and supernatural strength also works the exact same way - but - 30% more for aumented, 50% more for robotic and 100% more for supernatural. this scaling is exactly the same as it is for throwing distances under wp thrown weapons.

Maybe this is just me.. but the 'ammount to carry' and what not never really come up in my game, unless somone's tryng to carry a wounded teammate out of battle or something. Even then it's not really needed to see which multiplyer we're using if the creature has supernatural strength.

Yeah there's the different kinds of strength, but... does anyone ever go though the math? Or just eyeball it? I know I eyeball it.

#4 MDC Disparity to SDC
well as a general all round fix to help make sense out of MDC, Supernatural PS and other such things that don't make senseabout MDC i have reduced MDC to x10 SDC rather than 100. MDC is still very potent and very deadly but now fits more in line with what already exists for SDC rules. if you have a PS that gives you a damage bonus of +10SDC then you also get a damage bonus of +1MDC. of course 10 SDC damage now inflicts 1 MDC to MDC thingies.

Kay... that's just... that's all you. lol If that's what yall's games do and you enjoy it. That's cool. I don't mess with game mechanics that much my self, but it's infinatly changeable if you want to do it. Reducing MDC that much pretty much just makes it moot. but.. ok.

in a similar vein i have always found it kind of odd that a tank does as much damage as a plasma rifle on the average. not to mention nukes being somewhat more piddly than they should be.

solution ... use the same scaling for damage as for PS and carrying weight. personal weapons infilct the same as currently written. giant weapons, rail guns fusion block small missles and etc inflict 30% more damage. super sized weapons, tanks, planes, robots (of the large variety) and etc. inflict 50% more damage. massive weapons such as mobile fortresses, battle ships and nukes inflict 100% more damage.

just my thoughts ...

House rules as you like um seems to be a running Trend here. I don't really understand why people complain so much.... but that's me. Take what ya like. Leave what you don't. Just remember the game has to appeal to a HUGE ammount of people so they're going for that happy middle ground. Not pleasing any one person at hte cost of 1000 people.

[RainOfSteel]

#2 Pop Can Heads aka Crazies
holy smoke! i read the change to the description of the MOM implants - huh? - they are pea-sized now? [...] i doubt very much that they would care about some human fascination with the prestige or the image of having pop-cans sticking out of ones knoggin.

solution ... ignore it completely, didn't happen that blurb does not exist.

That was one of RUE's best changes. The Crazy didn't look crazy, it looked mentally retarded. Now I have a way of allowing local players (including me) to play Crazies w/out having to say, "I house rule that you don't have to have mentally retarded looking metal cylinders sticking out of your head that screw you out of wearing evironmental armor and probably several power armor suits."

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, I'm gonna house rule that one so that he can apply his PS bonus at least. That's just dumb.
Maybe they should have scaled that a bit better...like max 1d6 md punch or add 1d6 to md melee damage...

A pixie who can only lift 120 lbs can power punch for 1d4 MD (1d4x100 SDC).
A strong human who can lift 1200 lbs can power punch for 1d4+15x2 SDC (max of 38 SDC).

Until the stupidity of this unbalance is fixed, trying to patch anything else is just spitting on the Hindenburg.

The other thing to consider is how things work with normal humans and melee weapons.
A normal human punch does 1d4 SDC.
If this normal human picks up a knife that does 1d6 SDC, he does NOT inflict 1d4+1d6 SDC damage with his attacks.
He only inflicts the damage of the weapon; 1d6 SDC.
Punch damage is irrelvent.

By that same token, if the human picks up a grapefruit that does 1d2 SDC damage, he doesn't inflict 1d4+1d2 SDC damage. He only inflicts the 1d2 SDC damage from the grapefruit.
Punch damage is still irrelvent.

So if you want to make things more consistant, then Supernatural creatures should inflict weapon damage regardless of whether their punch damage is higher.
Or go the other way and rule that that guy with a grapefruit gets his 1d4 punch damage when he beats somebody in the head with it.

Interestingly, A human with a knife and a PS <16 can inflict 1d6+ps damage with a knife, while a SN creature with a weapon does not.

Actually, they can.
If they're using an SDC weapon.

RUE, p. 285
"Supernatural beings do NOT add their P.S. attribute damage bonus to their M.D. attacks, but may add it to pulled punches that inflict S.D.C. damage instead of M.D."

RUE, p. 286:
"When weilding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapons damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater."

So compare:

Ordinary human with P.S. 18 and a knife inflicts 1d6+3 S.D.C.

Supernatural creature with P.S. 18 and a knife inflicts 3d6+3 S.D.C. on a restrained attack, or 2d6 M.D. on a full strength attack.

-Supernatural beings have the clear advantage.
-Both supernatural and non-supernatural beings use the same rules for SDC attacks.
-The only time that supernatural beings are "shorted" is when they're inflicting mega-damage to begin with, in which case that extra 3 SDC is not going to make any significant difference.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's how the class was invisioned to start and puts the 'Cyber" in cyber knights.

Like Hell it does!
There's nothing CYBER about ZEN martial arts that give you bonuses against technology. "Cyber" is all about using machines and working with them, not about thwarting electronics through mystic means.

but yeah, if you don't like it, just don't use it.

Don't and won't.
And hey, if you like the new version, that's cool.
Play it and have fun.
But never claim that the zen powers are somehow "cyber"; that's just not true.

[Killer Cyborg]

#2 Pop Can Heads aka Crazies
holy smoke! i read the change to the description of the MOM implants - huh? - they are pea-sized now? [...] i doubt very much that they would care about some human fascination with the prestige or the image of having pop-cans sticking out of ones knoggin.

solution ... ignore it completely, didn't happen that blurb does not exist.

That was one of RUE's best changes. The Crazy didn't look crazy, it looked mentally retarded. Now I have a way of allowing local players (including me) to play Crazies w/out having to say, "I house rule that you don't have to have mentally retarded looking metal cylinders sticking out of your head that screw you out of wearing evironmental armor and probably several power armor suits."

Or, for that matter, normal EBA.

[RainOfSteel]

But never claim that the zen powers are somehow "cyber"; that's just not true.

Panzerkunst?