Glitterboy2098's Phaseworld Tech Manual

[KLM]

a gravcomm basically causes the fabric of space to vibrate, and these vibrations impart information.

Err... DMB3 actually stated, that gravitonic fields
accelerate laser or radio waves...

One of the reasons I press this matter, because
if it is used, it would explain some of the horrible
prices of starship weaponry.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

If the Gm wanted he could always limit that sort of Comm gear to say Light cruisers or larger. Maybe the ships smaller than that should carry some sort small long ranged emergency unmanned drone to quickly communicate to their superiors.

[KLM]

Err... Somewhere in DMB3 it is hinted at least, that
ships can and do have FTL communication means.
(Just help can be hours away).

Mind you, FTL ships are detected from light years away,
so this feauter in itself can be used as a crude morse-code.

----------
Of course, it is your 3galactic campaign...

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

If they can fit it into the smaller warships that might help make them even more cramped than ever.

[glitterboy2098]

a gravcomm basically causes the fabric of space to vibrate, and these vibrations impart information.

Err... DMB3 actually stated, that gravitonic fields
accelerate laser or radio waves...

i remember no such mention. there is mention of FTL comms, but nothing about accellerating light or radio.

but if you want such a thing, no problem.

for close range (a few AU) real time comm, use the same distorsion the gravitic scanner uses as a carrier for a radio or laser signal.

for a longer range canned messages, wrap the radio or laser signal in a self propagating gravitic FTL feild like a ship uses.

these methods would be less efficent than the gravity wave one though.

[glitterboy2098]

Episode 5: Stealth Systems.
although in Episode 4 i defined stealth in space as impossible, that is not completely accurate. rather, stealth in impossible except in very limited circumstances.

three galaxies stealth systems are designed to render ships more difficult to detect, which does not neccisarilly mean they are invisible to sensors. most are designed for strategic stealth, reducing the effectiveness of long range sensing systems, as opposed to the more limited range tactical sensors.


the biggest problem a stealth system has to deal with is heat. by merely existing, a body in space radiates heat at a level well above the background. for spacecraft, with drives, powerplants, electronics, and crew, this level is much higher, standing out like a beacon. one cannot eliminate this heat without raising the signature further, nor can one hide the heat for long by not radiating it. the other major concern in the three galaxies is gravity scanners. these active sensors have a range of many AU, and can detect gravity wells and active drives.

passive stealth is useless against these sensors, and rarely used. (passive anti-Radar stealth is sometimes used by less advanced races, particularly those that lack knowledge of gravitic technology. such stealth does nothing to hide the thermal signature, and only functions to make targeting such craft in battle difficult, if one does not have gravitic sensors)

active stealth has been developed by several races, and falls into 2 catagories, not including magical means.

the first is Gravitic stealth. often times called 'cloaking', this is a specially tuned gravitic feild designed to channel thermal and EM radiation, venting it in points along several directions. these points 'break up' the signature of the craft, rendering it difficult to detect and identify. (the feild is one way, only outgoing. RADAR can hit the craft, but the return echo is channelled away in a harmless direction) the gravitic feild is designed to resemble an asteroidal body or other harmless gravity well, spoofing gravitic sensors.
the primary flaw in this system is that active sensors on the 'cloaked' craft do not function. Em based systems are channelled away, useless, and activating Gravitic scanners gives away your position. a lesser flaw is that the system cannot fully alter the vessels visual signature. the feild cannot bend light sufficently to render the craft invisible, only enough to render the craft faint, a blurry form at most.


the second form is Fold based. sometimes known as a 'shadow cloak', this system uses a hyperdimensional feild to acheive a reduced signature. the feild routes incoming and outgoing energy partially into hyperspace, resulting in a much lower signature. as a side effect of this feild, EM radiation such as radio suffers frequency drift, the wavelengths increased or reduced. this renders the craft invisible to Radar, as the returning echo will have been altered in frequency to a band not detectable by the system. the drift is predictable, and the systems of the stealthed craft can be set to compensate, allowing it to utilize it's own sensors, albiet at a risk of giving away it's position.
shadow cloak has minimal effect on visible light, able to render the light only slightly dimmer, the resulting effect causing the craft to look like it was in a faint shadow. (possibly the source of the systems monniker.)

ancient races like the K!tzon and the prometheans may possess more advanced or alternative methods.

all technological races continue to fund massive research programs to improve these existing systems, or to develop new alternative methods of stealth. the same races fund even more massive research programs to discover methods of detecting stealthed craft. the race between these two program types is an ancient one.

GM's note: alternative methods might include a fold based system that functions like a barrier system, trapping signals deep in hyperspace, rendering the ship invisible. or metamaterials that when coated over a hull and power applied, bend gravity, EM, and light around itself, rendering the ship invisible to non-thermal sensors (would probably be combined with a variation of the gravitic cloak for thermal).
more advanced methods might include the ship going out of phase, rendering it undetectable, or submerging itself in hyperspace (a stationary setup, to be sure)

[Aramanthus]

Very interesting! i like it!

[KLM]

a gravcomm basically causes the fabric of space to vibrate, and these vibrations impart information.

Err... DMB3 actually stated, that gravitonic fields
accelerate laser or radio waves...

i remember no such mention. there is mention of FTL comms, but nothing about accellerating light or radio.

Please check DMB3, page 7:
"Messages are sent via laser or microwave transmitters combined with
phase or CG fields, to prevent their energies from being slowed down
by gravity".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the gravitic feild is designed to resemble an asteroidal body or other harmless gravity well, spoofing gravitic sensors.

Err... For my part I would suggest that a finely tuned
CG drive can minimalise the gravitic disturbance caused
by the craft - because while sensor operators might see
an asteroid on the screen, clocking it with high speeds,
and especially seeing it manouver will raise a few eyebrows.

On the other hand, such a "smooth ride" probably is not
as energy-efficient normal CG drive... Resulting in either
slower speeds or in the need of vastly improved onboard
energy system.

----

Oh... And good job.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

a gravcomm basically causes the fabric of space to vibrate, and these vibrations impart information.

Err... DMB3 actually stated, that gravitonic fields
accelerate laser or radio waves...

i remember no such mention. there is mention of FTL comms, but nothing about accellerating light or radio.

Please check DMB3, page 7:
"Messages are sent via laser or microwave transmitters combined with
phase or CG fields, to prevent their energies from being slowed down
by gravity".

ok, your right. but i think i already explained that in the previous post. now it just enters the realm of canon.
wrap the laser or directional radio signal in a FTL feild.

you get longer range, but the draw back of it being directional, requiring you to aim it precisely. (a little signal leakage would occur, so you'd only have to aim it at the star system in question, no need to pinpoint specific points within a system. lasers would be much shorter ranged than radio in this case, since those would need to be accurately pinpointed)
if you use Phase feilds, it becomes a Foldcomm.

just ignore the bit about gravity slowing it down, gravity is a function of the warping of spacetime, and the speed of light is a function of spacetime. so removing gravity does not mean you can exceed the speed of light. thats like saying "my car can go 100mph max but thats on a road, if i drive on a salt flat, does that mean i can max at over 100mph?"

in order to spoof the speed of light, you have to alter the fabric of spacetime so that c is much higher than the normal value, so you can travel faster than 299,792,458 metres per second while remaing below the velocity of light in the altered space..

sorry, rant mode off. the disregard for physics in the early phase world books gets to me sometimes. it has a lot of the same things i didn't like about star wars....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the gravitic feild is designed to resemble an asteroidal body or other harmless gravity well, spoofing gravitic sensors.

Err... For my part I would suggest that a finely tuned
CG drive can minimalise the gravitic disturbance caused
by the craft - because while sensor operators might see
an asteroid on the screen, clocking it with high speeds,
and especially seeing it manouver will raise a few eyebrows.

On the other hand, such a "smooth ride" probably is not
as energy-efficient normal CG drive... Resulting in either
slower speeds or in the need of vastly improved onboard
energy system.

same idea. your feild is reduced so that you look like a harmless, low mass rock, or anything but a ship.

and remember this was optimized for 'strategic stealth', to keep you from being ID'd at a distance (several AU's). proper use would be key. for example, you'd want to avoid doing major manuvers until you hit the 'tactical' realm (about 150,000km from the enemy, the distance when timelag on radar and other lightspeed sensors used for targeting reaches under a second). you'd also likely want to avoid accellerating too, instead going with a cruise, in an orbit that will bring you close to your target.

gravitic stealth isn't like a stealth fighter's stealth, like the F22. it's more like a submarines. you reduce your signature so the enemy has a harder time detecting you. but if you do anything flashy, or anything more than drifting, your going to give away your position.

F22 type tactical stealth requires a shadow device, which is a different technology and much rarer in the 3G's. (fold tech being rare)

i can't remember if Phasetech has a stealth device for ships, but i mentioned it anyway as an example of 'hightech' stealth.

Hmm... What of fold-tech ships?.... I mean they should not be detectable during the fold process, right?.... May be in the initiate state and final state of the fold, but not the transition, right?

you could detect them entering and exiting, but you'd need some pretty advanced sensors to pick them up while in hyperspace, at least without being in hyperspace yourself.

in hyperspace, the ship would be in many places at once, as it passes through the folds of 3D space. but being in more than 4 dimensions, it would be very hard to pick up. the prometheans might be able to do it, likely so could the K!tzon, and other ancient races, but i doubt the younger races could pull it off. (personal opinion)

[Aramanthus]

Hmmm. Those are some interesting thoughts. And thanks for those pages numbers KLM!

[KLM]

Glitterboy, may I ask you to describe "canon" stuff,
like the Silverhawk or the "typical" runner ship by
your rules?

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

Glitterboy, may I ask you to describe "canon" stuff,
like the Silverhawk or the "typical" runner ship by
your rules?

Adios
KLM

send me a PM with the tech you want to see covered, and the book and page #'s it's found in.

oh, and whats different about runner ships that would need a tech explanation. IIRC, a runner is just a smuggler/blockade runner, and their ships are just high end upgrades to standard ship tech. sort of like how the Falcon in star wars wasn't technologically different, just tweaked to be fast and with non-standard parts added to bring the capabilities up.

but then, i don't have the rifter that gave expanded info on them....

and this technically isn't rules, it's fluff, description. i have not specified any rules, although i have suggested some guidelines for what a tech can and cannot do, subject to GM interpritation.

hmm... if the two bleeps are within sensor range, then the person is not using the fold drive to its full potential.

or maybe using to full potential. you could use FTL drives to pull off things like the Picard manuver, going to FTL just long enough to pop into and out of range and position on a ship.

i beleive the intruder ships are described as doing just that, in fact. the ultimate in hit and run.

[KLM]

Glitterboy, may I ask you to describe "canon" stuff,
like the Silverhawk or the "typical" runner ship by
your rules?

Adios
KLM

send me a PM with the tech you want to see covered, and the book and page #'s it's found in.

Slverhawk attack exoskeleton, DMB2, page 130, point 5 - stealth system

Typical runner ship, DMB2, page 171 - flavor text mentioning stealth system.

Adios
KLM

[Greyaxe]

Stealth systems are mentioned in the origional Phase World in the description for the Stick In Your Eye, near the back of the book (sorry dont have a page number handy). It describes stealth coating to be -50% to detect while in FTL and -80% to detect in STL. It is the only cannon description of Stealth in the PW books.

[glitterboy2098]

Stealth systems are mentioned in the origional Phase World in the description for the Stick In Your Eye, near the back of the book (sorry dont have a page number handy). It describes stealth coating to be -50% to detect while in FTL and -80% to detect in STL. It is the only cannon description of Stealth in the PW books.

sounds like metamaterials. coatings that either render the ship permible to sensors, so they pass through and don't pick it up, or bend them around it.

[Greyaxe]

It is probably a combination of absorbent materials and engine design. Given the speed you travel is a variable in the senory ability.

[KLM]

Holographics technology (especially when applied to
infrared wavelenghts) means we have visual and
thermal cloak.

As the Silverhawk description states however,
it is not perfect. Probably similar to the Predator
cloak - when one knows what to look for, he
can find it - or better, program visual sensors
for the task.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Might not work on different wavelenghts.

ADios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

Holographic camo won't help in space.

remember, heat is everything. battles take place at ranges where the human eye cannot see the target as more than a dot. visual camo is rather pointless.

you can hide against radar, gravity scanners, no problem.

but you have to hide the heat. and you can't do that by covering it up. everything will register warmer than the background, and if you add another layer it'll just radiate at the same temp as the object it's hiding.

Holography can't hide heat unless it's hotter than what is in it, which makes detection that much easier. you have to either disquise your heat sig as something else, or figure out a hightech way of radiating it that doesn't involve real-space.

you could use holography to disquise yourself as something else, say, make your hunter class read as a Proctor class, but you can't pretend to be anything smaller or something that isn't a ship.

[glitterboy2098]

oh, i know.
i was responding to KLM.

[Aramanthus]

Thatr sounds like a reasonable way to discharge heat, by dumping it into another dimension!

[KLM]

Holographic camo won't help in space.

remember, heat is everything. battles take place at ranges where the human eye cannot see the target as more than a dot. visual camo is rather pointless.

you can hide against radar, gravity scanners, no problem.

but you have to hide the heat. and you can't do that by covering it up. everything will register warmer than the background, and if you add another layer it'll just radiate at the same temp as the object it's hiding.

I do not see heat as a factor which totally negates stealth.

First, if you have holographic technology, which work on
different wawelengths (like infrared) using interference
you can effectively negate your thermal radiation.
Shield technology - if calibrated properly - seems to be
able to do it (after all, it can stop infrared lasers, right?)

Second, all spacecraft which are about to orbit a star
about as close as our rock, will experience that the sunny
side of the craft is heated to several hundred Kelvins,
while the other side is chilled to several Kelvins.

Therefore ships must have an "all-area" heating-cooling
mechanism (unless of course you plan to keep only one
side of the ship pointed towards the star).

Pressing further - and souping up that "heat conditioning"
system AND knowing the general direction where is
our foe, in that direction we can drastically reduce our
heat signature.

Not invisibility like Klingon cloak, but stealth, as in
the B-2.
---------------------------------------------------------------

As for visual camo... Somewhere I read that a polished
metal surface in orbit, with an area of 1 sqkm would
shine as 22 full moons.

And as for visual - do not assume that only the Mk I
eyeball would be used, as some aircraft already have
built in cameras for visual detection (and identification)
of enemy aircraft from like even 100 kms (in clear weather,
and in the case of large aircraft).

So, a bit of black paint won't hurt for stealth (and will
make cooling from the sun harder).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Err... Wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat#Radiation

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Maybe...

Even when the shields are designed for that function
(entirely logical! ) I would not leave out the
rad/heat shielding from the armor.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

Radiation sheilding merely absorbs harmful radiation. guess what i turns into? heat. heat that has to be gotten rid of if you don't want to fry your crew. so you have to get rid of it. and that means radiating it out into space.

radiating that makes you glow brightly on a thermal image.

using holography to 'cancel out' the heat doesn't work. heat may be radiated as photons, but you can't cancel out the enengy involved. energy that is wrapped up in the photons. you can manipulate the wavelengths, maybe bump it up into a higher thermal band, but all that does is move your problem to a different sensor.


as for the directional vectoring, did you read the link i gave?

here

To keep the lifesystem in the spacecraft at levels where the crew can live, you probably want it above 273 K (where water freezes), and preferably at 285-290 K (room temperature). Glancing at the above equation it is evident that the lower the spacecraft's temperature, the harder it is to detect. "Aha!" you say, "why not refrigerate the ship and radiate the heat from the side facing away from the enemy?"

Ken Burnside explains why not. To actively refrigerate, you need power. So you have to fire up the nuclear reactor. Suddenly you have a hot spot on your ship that is about 800 K, minimum, so you now have even more waste heat to dump.

This means a larger radiator surface to dump all the heat, which means more mass. Much more mass. It will be either a whopping two to three times the mass of your reactor or it will be so flimsy it will snap the moment you engage the thrusters. It is a bigger target, and now you have to start worrying about a hostile ship noticing that you occluded a star.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. John Schilling had some more bad news for would be stealthers trying to radiate the heat from the side facing away from the enemy.

Besides, redirecting the emissions merely relocates the problem. The energy's got to go somewhere, and for a fairly modest investment in picket ships or sensor drones, the enemy can pretty much block you from safely radiating to any significant portion of the sky.

And if you try to focus the emissions into some very narrow cone you know to be safe, you run into the problem that the radiator area for a given power is inversely proportional to the fraction of the sky illuminated. With proportionate increase in both the heat leakage through the back surfaces, and the signature to active or semi-active (reflected sunlight) sensors.

Plus, there's the problem of how you know what a safe direction to radiate is in the first place. You seem to be simultaneously arguing for stealthy spaceships and complete knowledge of the position of enemy sensor platforms. If stealth works, you can't expect to know where the enemy has all of his sensors, so you can't know what is a safe direction to radiate. Which means you can't expect to achieve practical stealth using that mechanism in the first place.

Sixty degrees has been suggested here as a reasonably "narrow" cone to hide one's emissions in. As a sixty-degree cone is roughly one-tenth of a full sphere, a couple dozen pickets or drones are enough to cover the full sky so that there is no safe direction to radiate even if you know where they all are. The possiblility of hidden sensor platforms, and especially hidden, moving sensor platforms, is just icing on the cake.

Note, in particular, that a moving sensor platform doesn't have to be within your emission cone at any specific time to detect you, it just has to pass through that cone at some time during the course of the pre-battle maneuvering. Which rather substantially increases the probability of detection even for very narrow emission cones.

my gravitic stealth doesn't try to hide the emissions. just like modern camoflauge clothes don't actually try to hide the weaer. they break up the outline, so you become harder to see. in space, my gravitic stealth breaks up the signature, making you look something less like a ship. your still detectable, but automated programs aren't likely to ID you, and manual controlled setups are less likely to as well.

Second, all spacecraft which are about to orbit a star
about as close as our rock, will experience that the sunny
side of the craft is heated to several hundred Kelvins,
while the other side is chilled to several Kelvins.

Therefore ships must have an "all-area" heating-cooling
mechanism (unless of course you plan to keep only one
side of the ship pointed towards the star).

since the rock, or the ship, are not perfect reflectors (no such thing exists), a good portion of the energy from the light, the radiation will be absorbed by the object. this energy will be radiated away as heat equally well on all sides, although the effect will seem to be more efficent on the dark side.

as for ship, since there are no blazing obvious radiators as would realistically be required, i think we can assume a highly efficent distributed network over the skin of the ship, just above the armor. however, unlike the rock, the ship has to deal with a lot more than just the suns light and radiation. the ship will have a drive, which will generate heat, due to the laws of thermodynamics. there has to be a powerplant, which will generate heat as a byproduct, if not the main product. then you add in the electronics, which will generate heat (even optical based ones). then add in the crew. metabolism generates heat. a lot of heat. humans have to get rid of this heat all the time to stay healthy. that heat goes to the air, the enviroment. and all life has a specific, narrow range of temps it has to be in to survive. so you have to dump the heat somewhere. which means refrigeration, which means radiators, which will glow on thermal (or visibly if hot enough).

which will mean you will be very visible compared to the background.

[KLM]

don't get cocky.
using holography to 'cancel out' the heat doesn't work. heat may be radiated as photons, but you can't cancel out the enengy involved. energy that is wrapped up in the photons. you can manipulate the wavelengths, maybe bump it up into a higher thermal band, but all that does is move your problem to a different sensor.

Maybe I wasn't correct physicswise.

Using destructive interference the amplitude of the wawe can be
made to zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference

Shields in the Three Galaxies are supposed to do the same,
cancel out incoming energy. Why they cannot do this with
outgoing energy?

This can be tricky, for (brainstorm) two example reasons:

- Only possible for prolonged period if your reactor
have an efficiency ratio above 50% - since you have
to invest as much energy (at least, efficiency factor again)
to snuff out waste heat, as that waste E is. And then you have
to power other systems.
- As sometimes you can see thing behind a hologram
sometimes some of your signature leaks "throught"
the screen.

So, it is not impossible to get rid of some limitation.

as for the directional vectoring, did you even read the link i gave?

Yepp... But those starships weren't powered by enough handwawium

For example the site relies on the fact, that those ships will need
loooong time to approach each other - not in the case of 3G
ships. So rely on it no more, than you rely on "canon"
handwawium... err I mean Palladium

Of course when INSIDE a sensor net you will be noticed. Even
the - supposedly - stealthy Stick in Your Eye will be noticed by
someone, if the circumstances neccessitate several "sensor"
skill rolls (ie several ship are searching her) to be made,
whoever rolls under his skill is the one who got caught in the
directed output.

Another issue is that the site you gave (which is otherwise
a really interesting and amusing article - thought my Noro
navigator nearly fell off from her seat reading the stuff
about detecting passive sensors ) makes some mistakes.

For example you quoted that example of a ship, which
crew does not want to freeze. Now, the example calculates
with the fact, that the WHOLE ship is heated up to room
temperature.
However, a starship is not likely to devote the whole of its
volume to life support. So you have a small compartment
heat to room temperature and a significaly larger hull area
to radiate that heat. (Ergo the hull is cooler).

Still detecteable, of course, but range is decreased.

Another trick, which the site does not calculate with,
it using some kind of thermal accumulator/battery,
which uses beta-handwawium, which absorbs heat
(and during the process is transformed to kappa-
handwawium ). Of course, they dismissed the idea,
since it is rather limited by the amount onboard
so it rather limits the time "heat-cloaked".
(Kinda like the vodka-tank on soviet Mi-24 helicopters,
which is used - injected into the jet exhaust - to reduce
the heat signature of the craft. Originally, it was verrrry
popular - you know russians and vodka - , but in
Afghanistan, they did not drink it).

Now, in the case of 3G ships, those periods are perfectly
sufficient for a bootlegger. Of cousre after it, they will have
a rather large amount of waste energy to get rid off somehow.
-----------------

All in all, please consider tweaking the chances so
that invisibility superior enchanted craft can not
mop the floor with all the other purely technical ships.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

Just remember one thing. You can not destroy energy. You can only cause it to transform.

[glitterboy2098]

Using destructive interference the amplitude of the wawe can be
made to zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference

Thermal radiation is essentually random, over a multitude of frequencies. good luck predicting the accurate wavelength of every photon that emerges before it is emmitted. if you do, let me know, and i can let the cat out of the box.

plus, you have the problem of the fact that the energy you are cancelling out is what is keeping your ship cool. cancel it out, and no thermal transfer occurs, meaning no heat is lost, meaning your crew has a choice of being original recipe or extra crispy.

Shields in the Three Galaxies are supposed to do the same,
cancel out incoming energy. Why they cannot do this with
outgoing energy?

don't lecture me on my own technobabble.

the sheilds do not cancel out energy. they redirect or absorb it. remember the laws of motion? an object in motion stays in motion unless acted apon by a outside force. sheilds stop weapons fire by applying enough energy to cause the attack to be either diverted off course, or stopped in it's tracks. the energy is not cancelled, but transfered to the ship in a safer way.

For example the site relies on the fact, that those ships will need
loooong time to approach each other - not in the case of 3G
ships. So rely on it no more, than you rely on "canon"
handwawium... err I mean Palladium

sure, that site assumes a long time between detection and combat. but thats because of the ranges of the sensors. IR can pick you up light minutes out. lets say 1 Au, which is actually a very conservitive measure. thats 149 597 870.691 km
in real orbital mechanics, most scifi ships worth their snuff measure velocity in kilometers per second.
but lets use a real object. the Helios 2 probe is the fastest man made object, moving at a velocity of 70 km/s. at that velocity, Helios would cover 1 Au in 25 days (24.735, actually)

now lets look at Phase world. the fastest canon ship is the naruni Fireeater. mach 20.
mach 20, using palladium's 670mph (1072km/h) mach figure comes to a mere 5 km/s. it would cover i Au in 346 days. almost a year.

needless to say, Phase world ships will be taking Much Much longer to reach a fight.

as for relying on it less, in favor of palladium i direct you to the following page

For example you quoted that example of a ship, which
crew does not want to freeze. Now, the example calculates
with the fact, that the WHOLE ship is heated up to room
temperature.
However, a starship is not likely to devote the whole of its
volume to life support. So you have a small compartment
heat to room temperature and a significaly larger hull area
to radiate that heat. (Ergo the hull is cooler).

nice to know you repealed the laws of thermodynamics.
1.) the whole ship has to be cooled to room temp.
2.) you have to cool any location that has crew, or that has electronics. pretty much the entire ship.
3.) any part you do not cool will seek equilibrium with the cooled parts, meaning it's heat will bleed over to the cooled parts. this means that you cool the netire ship, regardless of which section your refrigeration actually covers.
4.) larger surface area means more thermal absorbtion from light and radiation, porportional to the increase in dissipation. it also means that you've just made yourself a larger object, while slightly cooler. this results in roughly the same thermal signature. there are 3 parts to detection by thermal. size, temp, and distance. since you are closer than a star, you will look hotter. you cover more of the sky than a star, so you will stand out. and temp just sets the wavelengths you radiate in.

Another trick, which the site does not calculate with,
it using some kind of thermal accumulator/battery,
which uses beta-handwawium, which absorbs heat
(and during the process is transformed to kappa-
handwawium ). Of course, they dismissed the idea,
since it is rather limited by the amount onboard
so it rather limits the time "heat-cloaked".

you mean a true heatsink. it works, for a bit. until the stored heat starts bleeding back to the ship making the problem worse.

as for converting it into something else, congradulations, you've invented a perpetual motion machine. without violating the laws of thermo-dynamics, that conversion process cannot be 100% efficent. this means that some heat will not be converted, and that the energy you put into the device will generate waste heat itself!

(Kinda like the vodka-tank on soviet Mi-24 helicopters,
which is used - injected into the jet exhaust - to reduce
the heat signature of the craft. Originally, it was verrrry
popular - you know russians and vodka - , but in
Afghanistan, they did not drink it).

that had an atmosphere with a signifigant thermal level to provide a background.

in space, dumping a coolant in to the exhust just gives a nice big thermal target as the multihundred degree temp flares into existance in the 3 kelvin background. 3 kelvin, or 3 degrees above absolute zero. vacuum is cold, but it doesn't take in heat, which is the root of the problem.

ow, in the case of 3G ships, those periods are perfectly
sufficient for a bootlegger. Of cousre after it, they will have
a rather large amount of waste energy to get rid off somehow.

sure, the 2-3 minutes on the run to a planet, after the cops have known his whereabouts and orbit for most of a year..... even if he jumps in close to the planet using FTL, he's looking at hours of travel at canon speeds, during which he will be detected. the skill rolls only define wether the operator can identify it.

All in all, please consider tweaking the chances so
that invisibility superior enchanted craft can not
mop the floor with all the other purely technical ships.

i have no control over Canon. feel free to tweak things in your own games. but magic is supposed to be superior to technology, so i see no need to hobble physics so that technology can compete with something that defies physics in the first place.



now lets move to another topic before the debate heats up and this thread gets locked.

[Aramanthus]

So what is the next subjst you want to discuss Glitterboy?

[glitterboy2098]

lets see, i've covered:

Episode 1: Contra Gravitic Drive
Episode 2: Sheilds
Episode 3: Fold Drives, Phase Drives
Episode 4: Sensors and Communications
Episode 5: Stealth

i'm not sure what is left from phase world canon, so likely i will be branching out into AU and stuff that hasn't shown up but needs clarification. like the AU FTL setup (which i'm seeing as a kinda B5ish, transit to another space type thing), and Jump Drives (point to point travel).

hmm...perhaps Hyperspace tech has some other applications i can cover. i've mentioned a TARDIS effect in other threads as one possible explanation for the 1km SDF-1 to fit a whole city, 70,000 people, and a massive military force inside and still have room for engines, powerplant, and vast labyrinths of unused, unaltered corridors for dumb young pilots and singers to get lost in....


if there is anything else i haven't covered that you want to see, PM me with the book referance and i'll see what i can do.

[KLM]

Before a longer answer for the debate above,
I suggest a few points:

1, Tractor beams - AU have magnetic fields, 3G might
have gravitonic fields... Whatever, can we just lock on that
pesky fighters and stop them for just one shot...
How it is, or it is not possible?

2, Graviton guns. Of course we can accelerate
slugs to punch holes into people we do not like.
But why use pieces of metal, when we can send
a gravitonic wave, to ground their bones?
(Mimicking the effect of a small singularity passing
throught the target, for example). Or can we?

3, Teleportation. Just by magic, or Scotty can do it?

4, How Ley lines and Ley fields show up on sensors?

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

I usually consider that any ship that is powered by Cg would also be able to generate a tractor beam. At least that is how run it in my game.

As far as Hyperspace. I run Phase world very much like B5 in the way CG works. But I'd like to hear your thoughts about how you run it Glitterboy! Please.

[KLM]

Yeah... However, we might not want
a too powerfull tractor beam. You know,
there are plenty of fighter ace-wannabes,
who would got really sad, it their suicide sled
were caught by a tractor beam outside
their gun range while attacking those
Smashers.

On the other hand, I do not have anything
against a device which allows towing a starship,
or scooping a free floating can.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

Yeah... However, we might not want
a too powerfull tractor beam. You know,
there are plenty of fighter ace-wannabes,
who would got really sad, it their suicide sled
were caught by a tractor beam outside
their gun range while attacking those
Smashers.

which is one of the reasons i avoided describing it. being able to stop a kamikaze in its tracks is something any tractor would need to do, but it would make fighters pointless, since it could grab and hold a fighter still.

and you could use it as a 'bashing weapon' to inflict damage, and no such weapon has been hinted at yet.

besides, to make a tractor able to tow objects without issues of comparitive mass, you'd need to be able to produce localized gravity wells sperated from your engine. which isn't how i was writing the CG drives to work.

[Aramanthus]

In the case of the tractor beam, a scifi writer years ago came up with a cure for that problem. The "tractor shears." I also use that in appropriate tech levels ships. What about fighters of high enough tech having a tractor shear. Of course the power constraint might make impractical for a ship that size.

[glitterboy2098]

the main issue is mass, and Newton's laws.

all the gravity beam in a tractor can do is cause a ship to be attracted to another ship. but to tow a ship, the tower must be able to pump out enough motive force to move both it's own mass and the mass of the object being towed. so unless the towing ship is uber-ly fast to start, you won't be going anywhere fast.

when not in motion, the tractor would not be truely active, or the lighter vessel would be pulled towards the heavier one.


in combat, a tractor would be very useful. in short bursts, it could be used to throw a less massive ship off course, or knock a fighter out of control. if set strong enough and narrow enough, it could be used to 'punch' a ship, causing damage as one part of the ship is accellerated while the rest stay's put.

in theory, with proper timing, you could even use a tractor to 'drag' incoming missiles, kenetic impactors, and explosive warheads into trajectories that would miss the ship. (imagine grabbing a frisbee in flight and swinging it around you without stopping it.)

[Aramanthus]

I know exactly what you're saying! Tractor beams are a weapon. There are no if about it.

[KLM]

in theory, with proper timing, you could even use a tractor to 'drag' incoming missiles, kenetic impactors, and explosive warheads into trajectories that would miss the ship. (imagine grabbing a frisbee in flight and swinging it around you without stopping it.)

Of course, in theory automated laser point defense alway hits, but
we still roll a d20 for it

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

in theory, with proper timing, you could even use a tractor to 'drag' incoming missiles, kenetic impactors, and explosive warheads into trajectories that would miss the ship. (imagine grabbing a frisbee in flight and swinging it around you without stopping it.)

Of course, in theory automated laser point defense alway hits, but
we still roll a d20 for it

Adios
KLM

not true.


this section from the Atomic rockets page on wweapons sums up the issues with laser weapons quite well.

And don't think that lasers will automatically hit their targets either. There are many factors that can cause a miss. Off the top of his head, Dr. John Schilling mentions:

Uncertain target location due to finite sensor resolution
Uncertain target motion due to sensor glint or shape effects
Sensor boresight error due to finite manufacturing tolerances
Target motion during sensor integration time
Analog-to-digital conversion errors of sensor data
Software errors in fire control system
Hardware errors in fire control system
Digital-to-analog conversion errors of gunlaying servo commands
Target motion during weapon aiming time
Weapon boresight error due to finite manufacturing tolerances
Weapon structural distortion due to inertial effects of rapid slew
Weapon structural distortion due to external or internal vibration
Weapon structural distortion due to thermal expansion during firing
And we haven't even begun to include target countermeasures...

a laser has a dramatic reduction in the criticality of these issues over kinetics, but it's a case of degree's. a laser has the potential to be more accurate than an unguided kinetic, if for nothing else than it's lightspeed propogation.

and the laws of physics won't let you eliminate all the variables. at best you could further reduce them, but there is always the chance of a miss.

[Aramanthus]

But it makes sense. Maybe you could determine the number of things it could capture by it's sensor rating. What do you think about number of things captured Glitterboy2098?

[KLM]

Errr.... Houston, we have a problem.

First, in the CG drive section, GB mentioned "sublight speeds",
but we never discussed it.

Second, ship speeds are given in Machs... Now, aside the fact,
that Mach speed in vacuum is something interesting ,
we have a mutual agreement, that this means like 340 m/sec.

Problem is that

The orbital speed of the Earth averages about 30 km/s (108,000 km/h),

(quoted from Wikipedia)

So, how in the heck cargo ships with speed like M3 can catch
planets to orbit or land?
(I have ideas of "relative" speeds, but...)

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

Errr.... Houston, we have a problem.

First, in the CG drive section, GB mentioned "sublight speeds",
but we never discussed it.

Second, ship speeds are given in Machs... Now, aside the fact,
that Mach speed in vacuum is something interesting ,
we have a mutual agreement, that this means like 340 m/sec.

Problem is that

The orbital speed of the Earth averages about 30 km/s (108,000 km/h),

(quoted from Wikipedia)

So, how in the heck cargo ships with speed like M3 can catch
planets to orbit or land?
(I have ideas of "relative" speeds, but...)

the official palladium explanation is that since it's contra-grav drive, you can ignore the required orbital velocities.

i don't like it either, and in my own games if i run ones i'll be using a set of accelleration rules i cooked up, but i'm writing this tech manual from the official palladium perspective.


however, the number you quoted is not completely accurate.

1st, that is the velocity of earth, and not orbital velocity. to reach low Earth Orbit, the lowest stable orbit, you need at least 7,800 m/s, or palladium 7.4 mach. so the 'mach 5 or better' rule for getting into orbit works, barely.

escape velocity is 11km/s, or palladium mach 10.
barely attainable in most setting, but possible in phase world by fighters.
again, the official explanation for why escape velocity is ignored is supposed to be the physics defying contra-grav drive.



and 'sublight' velocity just means 'below the speed of light', or basically, non-FTL travel.

[glitterboy2098]

But it makes sense. Maybe you could determine the number of things it could capture by it's sensor rating. What do you think about number of things captured Glitterboy2098?

well, if it works for you. i'd see a few variable in tractor use.
control limits (equivilent to your sensor rating idea)
# of beams
strength of beams
mass of the tower
mass of the towee.

basically, a large ship should be able to slow down a smaller ship, or drag a fighter or smaller to a halt.
small ships might be able to slow down a fighter, and stop a missile.
no tractor will allow you to slow down a larger ship, but it may allow you to 'hitch a ride' on the larger.
treat it as a weapon attack, with rolls to strike and such.
just pick a range andhow often youand long you can use it that suits your games.

[KLM]

however, the number you quoted is not completely accurate.
(...)
escape velocity is 11km/s, or palladium mach 10.

So, Palladium space M number is roughly 1...1,1 km/s

Is it in RT or...?

--------------

So, when a PW starship arrives into a star system, she cannot
"chase" a planet, but rather - after having determined her
relative position - have to go to FTL again and place herself
in the path of the planet, where the "intercept zone" of the
planet pulls the ship out of "warp"?

It roughly means, that a runner ship needs approximately
half an hour to reach the atmosphere - except if it just "freefalls"
(having a "relative speed" to the planet of like 30 km/sec
on average) and in this case, it is just a bit under of 15 minutes...
(And this means I did not calculated with the gravitic acceleration
of the planet).

Or...?

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

The more dense the material, the sound moves in,
the faster speed the Mach number represents.

M1 in water is about three times as fast as in air.

So, M1 is faster on sea level, than in several kilometers high.

Also, measuring the Mach number in vacuum... Hey, in space
noone hears you scream!

Adios
KLM

[shiiv-a]

i try, due to a lack of total and utter fascination to get into mega contests of knowledge and tearing things a new one, to avoid these threads that involve egos.

BUT ...

IF you assume that this group is using 'tractor beams' to catch and huck space debris, missiles and enemy ships like the technological version of telekinetics .. something is wrong.

and that something is called 'repulser beams' .. that is 2 different systems. requiring a second person manning similar controls. and thats on the bigger badder ship.

sure the little 'fighter ship' with jockey pilots, not many are really gonna wanna go after the bigger ships IF they don't have a trick up their sleeves.

it is MY belief that the little ones will have those systems. why? think about it.

even in the wilds of the world we live in, the big bad eagle is chased off by crows, who themselves are chased off by songbirds. why? .. figure that one out and apply it to the 'scientific and plausible' discussion your having, and you will start to understand how SOME people think.

i'm not interested in hearing you rip my post apart, in fact i KNOW most of you will ignore it cause i don't have 1000 posts or more, but hey, i do have thoughts on a different wavelength from all you sci-fi geeky types. sorry if you think its an insult, take it how you will.

[glitterboy2098]

The more dense the material, the sound moves in,
the faster speed the Mach number represents.

M1 in water is about three times as fast as in air.

So, M1 is faster on sea level, than in several kilometers high.

Also, measuring the Mach number in vacuum... Hey, in space
noone hears you scream!

i know, but palladium fixed it at about 670mph/1057kmh. regardless of altitude or pressure. (no mention has been made of speed through liquid or solids, but i would imagine it's doubled in liquid, and even faster through solids)

i don't write the rules, i just have to live with them.

IF you assume that this group is using 'tractor beams' to catch and huck space debris, missiles and enemy ships like the technological version of telekinetics .. something is wrong.

and that something is called 'repulser beams' .. that is 2 different systems. requiring a second person manning similar controls. and thats on the bigger badder ship.

Tractors use focused gravity emissions (either as gravity or negitive energy) to manipulate objects. if you can pull and manuver a ship using them, you can pull or manuver rocks, space junk, fighters, missiles, or any other physical object. in short pulses at high strength, they could be used to 'bash' objects by imparting kinetic force.

as for a second person manning the controls, this isn't star wars, Phase World has this thing called computer automation that can allow one person to manipulate several systems/weapons simultanously.

as for the term 'repulsor', a tractor pulls, a repulsor pushes. they are two applications of the same technology, and would be the exact same installation, as you need to do both to properly manipulate objects.


and if you have the ability to remotely manipulate objects, to not use it as a weapon or defensive system is silly. heck, even the drive exhust from a reaction drive like a fusion rocket can be used as a weapon. an orion drive IS a weapon, just used to move a ship. and CG drives can be used as weapons of mass destruction merely by getting up to speed and slamming into things.

all it takes is the ability to think laterally, outside the box of the 'battleships in space' paradigm. anything in space can be used as a weapon if enough effort is put into it. (my favorite example is the city killing reletivistic kitty-litter)

sure the little 'fighter ship' with jockey pilots, not many are really gonna wanna go after the bigger ships IF they don't have a trick up their sleeves.

exactly what tricks are those? without bringing up new tech, there are two main advantages fighter pilots would need to successfully take on a bigger ship. sufficent Numbers, to properly swarm the ship (thus making it harder for the ship to fight back effectively), and sufficent firepower in the form of anti-ship guns or missiles to do the job.

just like fighters in reality, from WW1 to today.

and ships are built to fight back, in a red queen's race of advancements. improve the fighters, and someone will improve the ships ability to fight back, which leads to improvements in the fighters, and so on and so on. y
(Red Queens race. from alice in wonder land. "It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.")

[shiiv-a]

*shivers*

point taken ... don't rock the boat. got it loud and clear

ta-ta

[glitterboy2098]

3, Teleportation. Just by magic, or Scotty can do it?

well, in theory you could build a matter transporter, but you'd have to find a way to deal with things like the heisenburg uncertainty principle. if your going to break people down into component particles, and hope to rebuild them, you need both the location and movement of the particle. but the uncertainty principle says that you can learn one or the other, but not both at the same time, and the act of learning one changes the other.

any device that can avoid that issue counts as magic under clarke's law.

if your breaking people down, you also have to worry about energy release when you break the bonds down. the amount of energy stored in chemical and magnetic bonds in the average persons body is equivelent to a few A-bombs, not exactly safe to let escape.

with standard 3-G's tech, i'm not sure if yoy could do it without a lot of handwavium. perhaps a small scale 'jumpdrive' that bends space over short distances to move a person intact from one spot to another.

fold tech could have a similar set up, only substituting a quick jaunt through hyperspace for the space fold.

[Braden Campbell]

Teleportation? Magic only.

A single person is just too much information to transform into any kind of energy medium, even if you could map out every atom in their being.