Debate Time .... Vampires again

[Carl Gleba]

Debate time again. I'm considering doing the Elemental Planes as a future book. Since the Cosmic Energy thread was, well informative, I figured I would see what the vast majority of people feel about the Plane of Fire. At this point I'm on the fence. So what do you fine folks think?

Consider the plane being a light source for another dimension and in the plane of fire itself.

Thanks

Carl

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

If it is not sunlight, it doesn't hurt the Vampire.

So, no, light from the Elemental Plain wouldn't hurt the Vamp as far as I am concerned.

If the Vamp got staked though...

~ Josh

[glitterboy2098]

that only works if you assume fusion counts as fire, or to be mystical, that fusion is one of the aspects of fire.

in most classical element systems, fire is placed between air and earth, and it's main aspects are heat and dryness.

i would imagine that light generated in the plane of fire would be like light from a fire in any corporeal 'verse. unless it was generated from the plane of fire's equivelent to a sun.


of course, without more information, this is a hard one. what exactly is the plane of fire? what does it look like, what are it's laws and forms?
is it just a massive infinite mass of flame, with currents and doldrums through it's volume, or do the other planes (earth, air, water, and bringing in non-greek systems, metal, void, energy, and Aether) bleed over in places, creating islands of conditions closer to normal reality?

[Aramanthus]

I'd say trhe fire on the plane of fire would toast any vampires.

[KLM]

For my part, I would say Elemental Fire does damage like
fireball spell or a fire elemental - does damage, but does
not kill.

But vampire incursion to the Elemental Plane of Fire
is rather unlikely. Any material possession (except
maybe a rune item) would be reduced to ash in a
very short time, and this includes "sleeping soil".

Also, immersing a vampire into something like
lava will put them out of comission for a good
deal of time - untill someone unlucky frees the
leech.

Finally... There might be stuff on the elemental plane
which fill the role of Earth trees... Good for staking.

Adios
KLM

[Carl Gleba]

Lets assume for the moment that there are "habitable zones" that are lit by the burning flames of the plane of fire. In essence, you're inside a sun, at least that's how it would appear.

Is the light like that of a torch, or that of the sun?

Carl

[Greyaxe]

I think Vampires are killed by the combined light and intensity of a yellow star. Assuming the Elemental plane of fire is bright enought ( i say it is) and composed of the same syle of rays as a star it would be intense enough to overcome the regenerative powers of a vampire and kill it.

[DhAkael]

I refuse to debate this point.
Not gonna happen.
Nope.
Nuh-uh.


Only thing I will say is; why would a vampire even bother going to the Plane of elemental fire? No prey there.

[9voltkilowatt]

Think about it this way, does the light from a fire elemental inflict damage? They are the living essence of the element of fire and therefore would be like being in close proximity to the plane of fire, and since we know this dosn't hurt them (I would hope it would have been mentioned in the vampire kingdoms book), I would have to say no.

[glitterboy2098]

I think Vampires are killed by the combined light and intensity of a yellow star. Assuming the Elemental plane of fire is bright enought ( i say it is) and composed of the same syle of rays as a star it would be intense enough to overcome the regenerative powers of a vampire and kill it.

except that sunlight duplicated technologically has no effect on them. only light from a sun.
that indicates that it is a mystical, and not a mundane, aspect of sunlight that hurts them. according to MiO and phase world, suns form a nexus of leylines between planets. so it is likely the PPE infused in the light, and not the light itself, that hurts them.

so in this case, light in the plane of fire would not harm a vamp, unless it was being emitted from a major nexus.

[Braden Campbell]

Carl;

I vote that the light would do no damage, but as always, that the magical fire will inflict half damage. Just like Cosmic Energy.

[Greyaxe]

THe vampires would have a big problem though, they will not likly be native to that dimension. The will therefore have to import their soil from their native dimension. A significant vulnerability in a land of scorching fire, the wouldn't survive for that reason.

[Carl Gleba]

I'm not saying they're going to be vampires there, just trying to cover all bases. Everyone has thus far provided some very nice insight.

Carl

[9voltkilowatt]

... just trying to cover all bases ...

Carl

Good idea, gotta cover those bases, if you don't someone always tries to use it as a soapbox to voice some hair-brained scheme to exploit the rules.

[9voltkilowatt]

ok... I chose "no".... but what does?....

What does what? Do you mean Vampires?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Flames from the Elemental Plane of Fire are considered magical in nature, and thus could DAMAGE a vampire just like a magical Fireball.

And, just like a magical fireball, it'll never truely kill him

[9voltkilowatt]

I don't think the flames were ever in question, just the light from the fire.

[KLM]

The allergy to light is supernatural in nature. vampires are allergic to type K and G stars. so the fire's light would do nothing.

I guess, that is the wrong approach (nothing personal), it
is called mystic f***ing. Especially, when an identical,
but artifical light does not harm them.

It is more likely, that the reason is astrological/magical.

I might even risk, that a star, which do not have life
supporting planets, but otherwise identical to our Sun,
will not harm a vampire by its light.

However... Well, in most IRL mythology vampires are
destroyed by fire - Palladium vampires are not really.

Frankly this makes it really hard to track their relationship
to the element of fire in the alchemical sense.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

What is in Holy Water what kills them?
What is in wooden stakes, what paralises them?

And if you just see the small comic part about
removing a stake... We just can throw out
physics and chemistry.

Most probably, Sun is accredited to be a life-giving
"father", while night/moon is a life-taking, probably
feminine entity.

If there was a planet, where daylight was fatal (like
from heat), and night was associated to life, then
the species evolving on that planet, when turned into
vampire would be hurt by starlight.

Or not.

Maybe it was just some ancient curse on the vampire
Intelligences.

Adios
KLM

[9voltkilowatt]

I meant what is in the sunlight that kills the pest?

Its the UV rays. As Mr.Frost from the Blade movie shows us, all you really need is a good sunblock. As we all know Vampires are allergic to tanning.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't think the flames were ever in question, just the light from the fire.

oh!

No. The elemental plane of fire is not the Sun.

[shiiv-a]

lets see .. from a players point of view ...

while the LIGHT from the plane of fire would be thought as 'workable' .. i think the fact the vampire laughing as his gaze prevents you from moving will be more than enough for the mage to say some random profanity .. before running away and leaving the sacrificial lamb/bait behind so the others can live

thus no, the light is from 'natural' flames, the the fact its from an elemental plane, would keep it as 'natural' firelight ... the flames themselves? .. or the elementals that would come and take a peek before moving away from the 'cold' place would say more.

so ... NO .. the light wouldn't damage the vamp
... make it blink and cower for about 1-5 seconds before starting to laugh yeah
... make your impending death long and painful? .. definitely

oops .. i seem to have rambled again. just my thinking about the topic

[9voltkilowatt]

lets see .. from a players point of view ...

while the LIGHT from the plane of fire would be thought as 'workable' .. i think the fact the vampire laughing as his gaze prevents you from moving will be more than enough for the mage to say some random profanity .. before running away and leaving the sacrificial lamb/bait behind so the others can live

thus no, the light is from 'natural' flames, the the fact its from an elemental plane, would keep it as 'natural' firelight ... the flames themselves? .. or the elementals that would come and take a peek before moving away from the 'cold' place would say more.

so ... NO .. the light wouldn't damage the vamp
... make it blink and cower for about 1-5 seconds before starting to laugh yeah
... make your impending death long and painful? .. definitely

oops .. i seem to have rambled again. just my thinking about the topic

BAD SHIIV-A! BACK IN YOUR CAGE!

[9voltkilowatt]

Traditionally its considered to be a "cleansing" pure light, I guess its more of a metaphor then anything else really.

"As the sun rises over the foothills, banishing the darkness and her minions for another day, the hero' knew they were safe."

That kind of stuff.

[Dr. Doom III]

The Sun has always been a symbol of life. It's that mystical symboliogy if you will that does damage to vampires not light, heat or any nuclear/fusion reaction.

No damage.

[Greyaxe]

Looks like most people say the light does no damage at all, in which case the elemental planes are going to be overrun with Vampires as there is no light that can harm them or keep them in check. Granted there is also fairly little they can convert into vampires as well bu you get my point.

[Carl Gleba]

No don't worry vamps won't be over running the elemental planes. Obviously as authors we can't think of everything and the debate on cosmic energy just go me thinking thats all.

Since its a different "Dimension" you are free to make up whatever rules suit your fancy. Vampiric powers and weaknesses can be changed at will because its a different Dimension and different rules of reality apply.

Totally agree dude But I figure someone might think of something I didn't. I can see arguments for an against it. I have an idea that I think I'm going to use. As for the Vamps, you never know what N.P.C.'s (trapped perhaps) you'll run across in your dimensional travels Plus you need reasons to go to these places

Carl

Carl

[shiiv-a]

IF a vampire is effected by the LIGHT from the element of fire .. and the 'sun block' was lousy .. said vamp could be in a world of hurt.

but hey .. its the write asking for ways of dealing with a sticky question. is it effected by the light from the plane? ... i say no. hindered maybe, but not really hurt. prolonged exposure may provide said vamp with a tolerance to earth's sunlight, and if thats the case? .. i fear we as a people on rifts earth be a dead species.

and the reason why a vampire is allergic. several reasons. the main on being a total deficiency of the vitamin D. that is supplied by sunlight. thus its an allergy to Vitamin D .... and when exposed. the body cannot handle the amounts its being exposed to and has a massive reaction and 'dies'. being of the UNDEAD variety, it basically ceases to exist.

trust me, food allergies bite big time. i have several, and if i get any seafood internally, its to the hospital if not purged. if the juice gets onto my skin? .. i gotta soak the hands in bleach to remove the juices from the skin. trust me .. NOT a fun solution. also allergic to banana's and pineapples .. i'm sure there are a few other things creeping up on me, but when you overdose of a vitamin or on a food type, you develop a major big time reaction that sets you onto the trail of purging of the toxins on a big time scale.

[cornholioprime]

if it's burning with the same energy as the sun then yes.

Not true.

Palladium Vamps are already immune to Nukes...which do the exact same physical thing as what the Sun does, only on a far greater scale.

Magic damage?? Maybe.

[cornholioprime]

No don't worry vamps won't be over running the elemental planes. Obviously as authors we can't think of everything and the debate on cosmic energy just go me thinking thats all.

Since its a different "Dimension" you are free to make up whatever rules suit your fancy. Vampiric powers and weaknesses can be changed at will because its a different Dimension and different rules of reality apply.

Totally agree dude But I figure someone might think of something I didn't. I can see arguments for an against it. I have an idea that I think I'm going to use. As for the Vamps, you never know what N.P.C.'s (trapped perhaps) you'll run across in your dimensional travels Plus you need reasons to go to these places

Carl

Carl

Except that we don't have anything in canon that says this; they are equally feared and hated across the Megaverse for a reason and hopefully, Carl won't introduce something new as far as Vamp Weaknesses are concerned.

I hope.

[Carl Gleba]

Except that we don't have anything in canon that says this; they are equally feared and hated across the Megaverse for a reason and hopefully, Carl won't introduce something new as far as Vamp Weaknesses are concerned.

I hope.

Now why would I go and do that?

No I'm not

Carl

[cornholioprime]

Nukes do not produce everything that a star does.

Speaking generically.

They use different elements (Stars as opposed to Nukes), but they do the same thing depending on the Nuke type, and usually put out pretty much the same "spectra" of Hard Particles and Energy.

Vampires are mystically vulnerable to Sunlight; in 5 billion years when the Sun starts "burning" different elements, the Vamps will be vulnerable to that Red Sun also. As well as the Blue Giant Betelgeuse, if they're in the system. And unharmed by starlight at the very same time.

Vampires aren't physically vulnerable to output of the fusion of hydrogen into helium, or helium into carbon, or carbon to oxygen, or mechanical means of reproducing the energy outputs of same; they are magically vulnerable to the natural light output of those great balls of gas in space.

[Greyaxe]

Which is why they are also magically vulnerable to the light produced on the elemental plane of Fire.

[cornholioprime]

Which is why they are also magically vulnerable to the light produced on the elemental plane of Fire.

You have no evidence whatsoever that the light produced in the Plane of Fire is sunlight as opposed to just firelight.

In fact, we're not 100% sure that the Elemental Plane of Fire is itself magical despite the supernatural creatures that live there.
(in the real world, Quantum Physicists say that a given extradimensional Universe need not comport to our ideas of what a Universe is, and even here in the real world, there is the possibility of an entire alternate universe that could be filled with fire, or liquid, or even void.)

Find canon evidence to support your argument and you'll have a point.

[Jesterzzn]

Lets assume for the moment that there are "habitable zones" that are lit by the burning flames of the plane of fire. In essence, you're inside a sun, at least that's how it would appear.

Is the light like that of a torch, or that of the sun?

Carl

Torch, or well, a torch lighted by magical fire.

I could see the contant light making vampires extremely uncomfortable, even to the point of incurring the same daytime penalties as they would on Rifts Earth, but harm them? No.

[Daniel Stoker]

If the light from a fire elemental or even the Fire caster from Russia doesn't hurt vampires I don't honestly see why the light from this would effect them. Granted the flames would quickly turn them into Flambe though.


Daniel Stoker

[Greyaxe]

Granted the flames would quickly turn them into Flambe though.


Daniel Stoker

I'm not so sure. If you read the Kittani Plasma Harness (Splynn book p163-164) and the Note about Vampires they're immune to the effects of the plasma field.

Of course it depends on how much you believe in this particular writeup , but it did rate a special note.

I dont have the book but is that plasma harness a TW item or a technological item. If it is TW then yes definatly raise an eyebrow because that is magical and the vamps should be vulnerable to it, if its tech well then its not much of a surprise.