Shields useless?

[Northern Ranger]

I can't remember exactly how 1E dealt with it, but I know in the current incarnation using a shield with the paired weapons skill is awesome. Using the shield to parry an opponent strike while simultaneously striking with your own weapon makes the shield very useful. (Without she shield, you'd have to parry with the sword, thus making the simo-strike impossible, unless you just take the other damage without bothering to parry.)

[J. Lionheart]

Shields can parry missile weapons.

Shields can be used to deflect breath weapons.

Shields can protect you from gaze attacks.

Depending what town you're in, shields can be legal in places a sword or other weapon isn't.

In a pinch, large shields can be used as a body-board for injured party members, temporary walls for an emergency shelter, sledges for equipment, and countless other uses.

Also, don't judge shields just by their parry bonus. Think of them in practical terms, picture them in your mind, and remember there are countless uses for some items that go beyond what they're specially designed for.

[t0m]

indeed some good advice. i was only going to mention missle attacks until i read that post.

the bonus to parry with a shield (in 2nd edition) is the same as the parry for knives until level 15 where the shield takes a +1 lead. this didnt make much sense to me personally as i would think that a tower shield is much easier to hide behind than a dagger. i do have a player who uses a shield though, and paired with his sword he seems to make out ok.

heres a house rule with shields just for kicks when parrying with a shield i give him the option to use his bonus to strike instead of his bonus to parry, and if he parries, the enemy takes shield bash damage. it gives him a bit of an edge in damage to make up for the (imo) low parry bonus. i also give him +1 to 'bumrush' (bodyblock/tackle) which he has used to great effect with his paired weapons skill (push enemy 1 into deadfall trap, stab enemy 2 in guts simultaneously.)

[Library Ogre]

As above, I allow shields to parry missile weapons and energy blasts; it's rather nice to be able to block a fireball with your shield (especially if said shield is impervious to fire).

[Jason Richards]

Honestly, even carrying a shield should also up your Armor Rating.

[Ronin Shinobi]

Honestly, even carrying a shield should also up your Armor Rating.

One can always incorperate the D&D 3.0/.5 rulles with sheilds.

[Library Ogre]

Honestly, even carrying a shield should also up your Armor Rating.

One can always incorperate the D&D 3.0/.5 rulles with sheilds.

Those rules are likewise poor.

[Ronin Shinobi]

It at least offers a increase in AR rating. One or two points is better than none.

[Library Ogre]

It at least offers a increase in AR rating. One or two points is better than none.

AR and AC represent somewhat different things, however. AC represents a composite of AR, active parrying, active dodging, and variances in size; that's why it incorporates Dex mods and size modifiers, in addition to armor and shields.

[Ronin Shinobi]

And I would agree with you on that and also see the point you convey. However all that I'm trying to say is that there should be a increase somewhere in AR. One or two points is not that far of a strech to add. I'm not wanting to incorperate everything in the D&D AC system to PF. Just the addtion of an AR increase if the character is blocking with the sheild.

[Jefffar]

I use modified rules for cover in may games and have shields provide cover based on size. The result is typically a - 1 to - 4 to strike the shield bearer, depending on the relative size of their shield.

[kamikazzijoe]

remember without shields you are -10 to parry arrows . With the shield you are only minus 3.

As GM I also rule you can't auto parry so it'll take an attack to defend.

[Guest]

While I could probably debate the merit of shields, my concern is a bit more basic. Where are the prices?!?

[Ronin Shinobi]

True, prices were left out in the 2nd edition. I often have to look through the 1st edition books to find the price.

[Library Ogre]

Page 60, in WP Shield.

[Ronin Shinobi]

Thanks. Definatly save me the trouble of going through two books.

[Veknironth]

Well, hth will allow you to parry without using an attack. However, all attack actions (i.e. stabbing, slashing, smashing, etc.) will use up an attack action. So, you could parry an attack with your shield and not lose an attack but you would need to use an attack to swing your weapon. If you want to do them both simultaneously you would need WP Paired Weapons.

You could parry 1 attack with both shield and sword but it wouldn't benefit you at all. IF you want to parry 2 simultaneous attacks you would need paired weapons again.

-Vek
"I know my paired weapons."

[dragon_blaze_99]

also the shield bash it's fun to mix up attacks and plow someone with a shield

[Cinos]

I say no way. I have a Paladin that uses a shield and a mace, he's a bad bad man. Shield Bash to knock your opponent backwards followed by a swift strik with a war-hammer. Extremely effective.

If you would; give an example of rules rational that does not include a house rule, in which that shield is better then a second mace. That's largely the heart of the thread (what with that other mace doing more damage, having unlimited SDC for parries, and likely having a very comparable +Parry).

[zyanitevp]

Forget even massive volleys- a good long bowman can shred a party by sniping if people do not have shields.

[Cinos]

Forget even massive volleys- a good long bowman can shred a party by sniping if people do not have shields.

They can do this if they have a shield or not, no parrying attacks you're unaware of the point of origin, so unless they have sixth sense, it'll be hard to block an arrow coming from some random bush. As I mentioned way above, Ranged combat is the only real reason to use a shield within the rational of the rules (or rather, to counter it).

[zyanitevp]

Forget even massive volleys- a good long bowman can shred a party by sniping if people do not have shields.

Ahhh but the missle volley is a staple of mideval combat and movies, harking back to the Lord of the rings books! I brought them up not to diminish the sniper but to further illistrate the shileds usage! the longbowman, who would be effective on his first strike but if they did have shields not so much on the second strike or ones after.....example, tower or kite shields, dont have to PARRY ranged attacks as we know characters arnt supposed to do normally, you can hide behind ither shield as they are big enough...thusly making cover where there was none, and therby forcing the sniper to at the least make called shots at from range, very small targets(depending on the gm ruling to this situation). the 12 to hit called shots pluse significant range mods can greatly decreas even a decent longbowmans accuracy/hit ratio to a point where his suprise attack might well be all he sticks around for, opting to harry the party again later, rather than trade few hits for the risk of being sighted and reataliated upon by the pcs scout or mages.

Agreed.

[GMDijarian]

I love this forum. Lets me think of things, id never think of.

[ghost2020]

So a quick question...
How does the bonus to parry work specifically? Does it combine with the sword parry to give the character a 'total' parry score assumed that they're using both sword and shield in combat? That would make some sense and keep the bookkeeping down a bit.

Or would you use the parries separately during combat, depending on what is specifically happening?

Just curious. I could see the sword and shield parry combining to make a total parry score for the combat. Just my two cents.

[Grug]

So a quick question...
How does the bonus to parry work specifically? Does it combine with the sword parry to give the character a 'total' parry score assumed that they're using both sword and shield in combat? That would make some sense and keep the bookkeeping down a bit.

Or would you use the parries separately during combat, depending on what is specifically happening?

Just curious. I could see the sword and shield parry combining to make a total parry score for the combat. Just my two cents.

Nope it's just the bonus from shield or sword. It just gives the character a choice, to parry with their sword or their shield.

Now since the bonuses to parry with a shields are lame. I give shields an automatic plus to parry according to size. This parry is added to the W.P. plus to parry.
Small (buckler size): +1 to parry.
Medium (kite size): +3 to parry.
Large (tower size): +5 to parry.

[ghost2020]

Grug...
are you sure? See that's just it. It doesn't say that it's not. It actually says, on pg 59 under Weapon Proficiencies that they are accumulative.

So actually, that makes sense, adding the shield and the sword parry bonus together for a total bonus score.

Is this what is meant? I am not sure, it would work.

Thoughts?

[Grug]

lol I was going off of memory. When I get home I will check to make sure. But I think, when it says they are accumulative, they are talking about the bonuses per level. The +1 at levels 2,4,6 etc. etc. etc.. Not that you add the two together.

Once I get home I will give you a better anwser .

[Genhuman]

Personally, in the games I run, I just incorporate the rule found in Aliens Unlimited. (I know, not a PF sourcebook....). Basically, it states that a shield provides a +2 to parry. (Will be able to look up a page number after I get home.)

W.P.Shield, of course, adds on top of that.

Its what I do, but that is just me.

[ghost2020]

Great discussion here though, so that's good.

So total shield parry bonuses would be from P.P., W.P. and any magic, O.C.C. bonuses, correct?

I think i am going to try out the adding sword and shield for a total parry score.

[Grug]

So total shield parry bonuses would be from P.P., W.P. and any magic, O.C.C. bonuses, correct?

Correct, I would recommend not adding the sword and shield bonuses together. Just in case they drop one or the other, then they would need to figure out what bonus is what. But that's just me and I'm crazy lazy. ^^

[bigmac8583]

anyone ever try a roman style shield wall or a testudo formation in game? how did it go?

[Jefffar]

They have their uses, that is for sure, but one must remember that in a world with area effect magic, supernaturally strong creatures and giant rock throwing devices, it isn't always an advantage to group close together.

[bigmac8583]

That's one of the reasons I've never been fond of playing in games that have heavy use of magic.

[kiralon]

The house rules we use is that shields can parry missile weapons at -4
Let you parry to the flank that the shield is on.
Can parry supernatural strength strikes without losing your weapon and being cloven in twain as long as its a decent shield.
and i upped the max parry bonus from well made shields to +6 (blunt weapon) and and multiplied the sword costs, so a +3 parry dwarven shield will cost you 200-500 gp and a + 3 parry sword will cost 6000 -10000gp

[Colt47]

In a more general RPG pen and paper experience, the only time I've ever found a shield to be useless is against either advanced technology (GOOD black powder rifles), super strong enemies like dragons or giants, and certain magic spells. Just about any piece of equipment is going to be useless given a specific situation, so it's important to make the right choices.

As far as mechanical bonuses go, Palladium fantasy isn't my defacto fantasy RPG (Pathfinder has that honor atm), but I'm pretty sure a piece of gear is more than a bunch of numbers.

[bigmac8583]

SCAdian! I wonder how many other people on here are members...?

[Heres_Beefy]

Our group made shields useful by adding an AR bonus to them.
We also made sure it stayed balanced by adding fitting prowl negatives and such.
We decided to do this because every successful ancient army in history used shields they are a major advantage so it only made sense for us to make them better.

[mastermesh]

Shield uses? See Captain America movie.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Someone needs to write a RIFTER article on the fine art of shields with nice new rule options O'plenty.

I have my houserules (not anywhere near me currently) and they are very simple and make using a shield a better option than a lil' old dagger. Especially vs. ranged attack.

If I recall I gave the shield a static AR number according to size, which I called Block Rating/BR, that each strike needs to beat just because it's in the way and then the option to parry even if the Block AR number is overcome. EDIT: I should add that the static blocking only applies to a single engaged opponent.

AR or BR 8 for a buckler/10 for a small shield/12 for a medium or viking sized shield/14 for a scutum/full shield

This rule option makes being a naked savage with a spear and shield a viable character. I also have houserules for shield walls as well.


And I have houserules for spear and polearms as well...like fighting over shield bearer, first strike/initiative bonuses and closing rules.

I'm an old, washed up, SCAdian and I know the benefits of a big ol' warboard when it comes to scrumming.