Save for Super Telekinesis VS living target? Yes/No?

[GaredBattlespike]

Please Vote, and Post your reason(s).

I feel that if the Super TK is used against a living(or Undead) target, he/she/it gets a Standard Save VS Psionics. Inanimate objects get no Save.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

As unfair as it may seem, I'm against a save vs telekinesis. How is one to resist the telekinetic power? I can see another psychic being able to counteract the telekinesis, either through an expenditure of ISP or opposing telekinesis. Other than that, well, tough luck.

Why would a save vs psionics work against something that affects the target's physical form? All other psionic powers that allow a saving throw target the victim's mind.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No save...

[Crazy Lou]

As unfair as it may seem, I'm against a save vs telekinesis. How is one to resist the telekinetic power? I can see another psychic being able to counteract the telekinesis, either through an expenditure of ISP or opposing telekinesis. Other than that, well, tough luck.

Why would a save vs psionics work against something that affects the target's physical form? All other psionic powers that allow a saving throw target the victim's mind.

Ditto here, took the words out of my mouth (except I don't think even a fellow psychic could save).

[Talavar]

No save. Psychic saving throws are for attacks on the mind. No dice here; it's like saving vs. a psi-sword.

[Library Ogre]

I allow a save vs. TK, though I wrote an article explaining the metaphysics of it.

[sHaka]

No dodge.

[Glistam]

No save, but I allow characters to grab onto something as a reaction, if there's something nearby. Depending on what's near them, that may or may not help them much.

[Temporalmage]

The victom always gets a save. I dont' remember which Palladium book states this, but I've read someplace, possibly in Heroes, that there is a save vs. ALL powers. Even if the power dosen't list one under it's heading.

I personally make the psycic roll a strike roll to hit at the very least probably at +2 or +3 to strike. With the victom getting some sort of dodge at straight dice rolls to see if they "accidentally" got out of the way. The power isn't an automatic hit one like a magic Lightning bolt. If it is then someone please tell me the book and page number that states that TK works automatically.
Thank you.

[Glistam]

It's in the Heroes Unlimited book, in the section before the description of super abilities. It's specific about super powers, not all powers. Iit basically states that if a character is affected by a super power that had no method already built into it for the character to avoid being affected, then the character gets a ssaving throw to resist the effects and the number to save against is 14.

Personally, I think that rule is stupid and I've never used it. But regardless of my feelings, it is not applicable to psionics. Every psionic power specifically states whether or not a save is allowed, and telekenisis does not state any such requirement.

And a magic lightning bolt isn't an automatic hit. The character has a chance to avoid its effect. When a character with TK goes to pick up a rock, or a statue, do you make them roll an attack to successfuly grab it with TK? Nowhere in the powers description does it allude to something like that. You only roll to strike when you throw a held object at somethign else. Like holding a rock and throwing it past a guard for a distraction, or holding a guard and throwing him at another guard for a distraction. Same rules apply in both situations.

[Talavar]

There's still no save. There may be a roll to strike, if you play it that way, but I don't see how you could let most characters attempt a dodge; how could they perceive the invisible force grabbing them to try and avoid it?

[Crazy Lou]

Uh, I'm pretty sure that call lightening is indeed an auto hit. I don't have the books here, but I think it's something like only things w/ the ability to dodge all incomming attacks (ie Juicer) can dodge it. Not 100%, but I'm pretty certain.

[Talavar]

There's no mention of a dodge for Call Lightning in the Book of Magic & RUE; it says auto-hit. I do think Beyond the Supernatural may suggest a potential dodge though, so it's kind of a grey area.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Call Lighting is only an auto-hit in Rifts. in all other games you need a 24 or higher to dodge.

[Crazy Lou]

Well, to clarify the call lightening I meant, I was talking about the Rifts BoM one.

Also, good points about armor and stuff used instead galen.

[Crazy Lou]

Call Lighting is only an auto-hit in Rifts. in all other games you need a 24 or higher to dodge.

I disagree, I don't think even a Hyperion Juicer is fast enough to dodge lightning. according to discovery channel lightning travels at a rate of 60,000 miles a second!

As for a save VS TK, I voted no as well but was surprised to see I'm with the majority.
The only person/ occ I'd allow a save VS TK is the Mindwerks Ecto-Traveller since he exists out of ectoplasmic force. He won't be able to withstand a TK push/blast but might be able to transform his body around/ over the force...

I think you're forgetting that the juicer could see the mage casting the spell, and maybe the bolt hits wherever the target is when the mage starts speaking? (talking about non rifts lightning -- for instance if the juicer went to HU world)

[Glistam]

Those poor catgirls.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Call Lighting is only an auto-hit in Rifts. in all other games you need a 24 or higher to dodge.

I disagree, I don't think even a Hyperion Juicer is fast enough to dodge lightning. according to discovery channel lightning travels at a rate of 60,000 miles a second!

Hey, don't argue with me, I'm just citing the offical rules here...

[Lukterran]

Call Lighting is only an auto-hit in Rifts. in all other games you need a 24 or higher to dodge.

I disagree, I don't think even a Hyperion Juicer is fast enough to dodge lightning. according to discovery channel lightning travels at a rate of 60,000 miles a second!

As for a save VS TK, I voted no as well but was surprised to see I'm with the majority.
The only person/ occ I'd allow a save VS TK is the Mindwerks Ecto-Traveller since he exists out of ectoplasmic force. He won't be able to withstand a TK push/blast but might be able to transform his body around/ over the force...

If you want to get all discovery channel.

Lightning is the release of electrons from something with a high (-) negative charge (Clouds, Sky) toward a (+) positive charge (The Ground). The electrons follow the flow of least resistance to try and balance the difference in potentials.

So really it’s not the speed of lightning that would matter, but whether you could lessen your (+) positive draw by getting near something else with a higher (+) positive potential.

That all being said, if call lighting worked by creating the differences in potentials their really would be no way to dodge a lightning bolt.

But this is fantasy and not physics.

[Temporalmage]

As I had stated before, I personally make the psychic character roll to strike, with bonus's. And the unaware victom then makes a straight roll to "dodge". No need to roll a strike for any inanimate object.

Basically did the victom move at the last second; flinch, bend over to tie their shoe....whatever. If so then sorry, deduct the ISP and start over. Not a big deal, I just hate anything that spells auto-doom to anything.

And yes TK spells auto-doom to anything. Lets see.....once grabed they are grabbed and will probably be smacked into the ground repeatedly till dead. After all the TK power lasts for minutes. Since the victom is TK'd they can easily be held in such a way that they can't see person doing the TKing. That means that no psycic powers can really help you, cept 'mabey' psycic body field. No magic is gonna help as your constatnly being smashed around, so no spell casting. Being repeatedly smashed into the ground probably means you'll loose your grip on any weapons or equipment, not that it'll help as you got no target anyway, as previously mentioned.

I mean really, TK when used on a person is just as broken as COA, except it's really worse as TK can kill ya all by itself.
Only defense against this power is intangability of some sort, or teleportation of some sort. So I ALWAYS allow some way out of a broken power.

[Phadeout]

I'd give the person some sort of change to grab onto to something (if within a few feet) to keep them selves on the ground, of course, if using Super TK, you'd have to have enough strength (use the amount the person can lift) to counter act the TK (minus the person's weight, since the TK power has to over come the person's weight first...)

So if a 200lb guy was being TK lifted into the air, and he grabs onto a tree branch, the Psychic say can lift 300lbs, then the guy being lifted by TK on has to have enough strenght to lift 100lbs to hold himself.

Not sure what I would use for the roll to grab onto something, a save vs. psionics does make sense in this case.

[Phadeout]

i convert TK from lbs per ISP spent to PS score per ISP spent ... this makes it easier to do a vs. living target because it becomes a strength contest between the TK user and the TK victim rather than a simple save vs. magic/psionic which doesn't make sense to me because TK is a physical effect not a magical/psionic one (the force is merely generated by psionic power but it is still just force).

The only reason I'd ever use a save vs. magic/psionics is to Grab something. And the only reason that makes sense, is because I can't find another way of doing it (Parry, Dodge roll? nope... maybe Roll with Punch? but vs. what number?). It kind of makes sense, because those people with high saves usually have:
More Experience (they will react faster, know what's going on quicker)
More Sensitive (usually those with Psionic save bonuses are senstive to Psychic powers and will be able react/realize what's going on faster)

[t0m]

there has to be a defense for everything or you might as well put the dice away and read the players a story. im my game i let the player choose what he tries to do as a defense in situations like these. (as long as they have experience with it...first time is a different story)

"you feel the same feeling from the time that psychic hurled you into the wall over and over, this time you are ready for it, you have a split second to react"

"can i try to throw my weapon at him to distract him?" (ill take just about anything logical sounding)

"roll to hit with no bonus"

thats a valid defense imo, and more logical than a save. if he fails the rest of the group knows to drop whatever they are doing and go after the person/thing using 'crazy powers' to mess their buddy up.

[Crazy Lou]

there has to be a defense for everything or you might as well put the dice away and read the players a story. im my game i let the player choose what he tries to do as a defense in situations like these. (as long as they have experience with it...first time is a different story)

"you feel the same feeling from the time that psychic hurled you into the wall over and over, this time you are ready for it, you have a split second to react"

"can i try to throw my weapon at him to distract him?" (ill take just about anything logical sounding)

"roll to hit with no bonus"

thats a valid defense imo, and more logical than a save. if he fails the rest of the group knows to drop whatever they are doing and go after the person/thing using 'crazy powers' to mess their buddy up.

Suppose it's a different psychic this time?

[t0m]

Suppose it's a different psychic this time?

are you suggesting that a different psychic would have a different 'feeling' attack? thats a great idea but a logistical nightmare for me/the gm. maybe if the person had been subjected to the same persons psychic powers over and over again he could learn to recognize it?

sounds perfectly logical to me ... but what do you do when a player asks "umm so what would the saving throw for that be?" instead of chucking a sword at our mind melter friend.

i would tell the player that the book says there is no "savings throw" in this case and he better think of something else a bit more descriptive

[t0m]

im not sure what you are getting at. if the book states there is no save against this attack (TK) then instead of leaving the player defenseless i give them an option to do whatever they want to try to get out. im certainly not

telling your player what they must do rather than letting them choose what they want to do

the book/rules are telling them they cant save, and im telling them to find another way....if they dont want to do anything, that is their choice. isnt telling them to use thier ps to save "telling them what they must do"?

phew, i thought i would have to throw away my good sword again.

kick some dirt in his face if hes close enough. spit at him. yell that "the guy in silver robes is f--kin me up!!" to the rest of your group, use empathy/telepathy to distract him, coa yourself to the ground, grab the heaviest thing near you, telekinetic leap out of the psychics line of sight, use your turn self to mist amulet, teleport, offer the psychic an ale if he lets you down etc....

using ps versus tk doesnt make as much sense to me. how can being strong stop a guy from lifting you into the air with his mind? can i save vs gravity in the same fashion? or falling?

[Kelorin]

Since TK is a physical psi-attack like pyro or hydo-kinesis, I'm going to have to say no savings throw. However, to allow it as an auto-hit thus pinning or lifting the target character up (no rendering the target incapable of dodging), seems unreasonable too.

Since TK is a physical psi-attack that affects the immediate area around a target character, then the most obvious defense seems to NOT be where the TK effect is about to occur, which is to say dodge. I would grant the TK a +3 to strike, but the grab should be able to be dodged normally.

On the topic of dodging lightning, we let people dodge lasers, & they move a LOT faster than lightning.

[Crazy Lou]

Since TK is a physical psi-attack like pyro or hydo-kinesis, I'm going to have to say no savings throw. However, to allow it as an auto-hit thus pinning or lifting the target character up (no rendering the target incapable of dodging), seems unreasonable too.

Since TK is a physical psi-attack that affects the immediate area around a target character, then the most obvious defense seems to NOT be where the TK effect is about to occur, which is to say dodge. I would grant the TK a +3 to strike, but the grab should be able to be dodged normally.

On the topic of dodging lightning, we let people dodge lasers, & they move a LOT faster than lightning.

Oh, yeah, btw, does anyone think that super TK should get better bonuses than the regular physical psi power for strike/parry?

Also, about dodging lasers: you can see the person pointing the gun at you, and get ready to fire, so unless they are lucky enough to guess the exact direction you're about to dodge and lead their fire in that direction, then you have at least some small chance of running. But w/ lightning, it'll arc towards (under normal, non magical circumstances) something tall, so your body, no matter how low you go, will still be higher than the ground around you unless you jump in a hole. Plus magic directs the lightning at you, so it basically follows you, which lasers don't do.

[Talavar]

I would give TK a dodge saving throw if you had some way of knowing where the psychic was targeting, which most characters don't. "Oh, an invisible force is going to grab me! I better jump to the left!"

The only people I would consider allowing a dodge attempt would be psychics using intuitive combat, maybe those with 6th sense, and any others with those sort of danger sense/combat precognition powers.

[Daniel Stoker]

Why would a save vs psionics work against something that affects the target's physical form? All other psionic powers that allow a saving throw target the victim's mind.

I'll have to double check my RUE when I get home, but doesn't the old description of Bio-Manipulation in the Rifts book talk about the power physically affecting sections of the brain of the victim yet it still allows for a saving throw?

[edit]Ok, I just got home and here what it says in the beginning:

The psychic is able to induce physical trauma to the nervous system of others by sheer force of will and conveyance of psychic energy.

Daniel Stoker

[Library Ogre]

NO SAVE FOR TK the only hope is to role initive to grabe aholed of some thing besides players are cheaters if the enemy gets a save they will just go "OH yah well im going to tk him by his backpack or shoe etc" my previous gm wouldent let me tk people becaus he felt that tk was never ment for it.

This is why you come up with a consistent rule for what TK can affect on a person, rather than winging it.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I didn't technically vote, but if I did I'd have to say "No." That's a vote that doesn't really need any extra votes though, and would probably be misleading because it's a no with an explanation. I will note, this is a house rule, take it or leave it as you will. It works for me, and that's what's important. The main reason I'm going to post it here is if someone else thinks it would work for them as well. If you hate it, that's fine too.

There is no saving throw against Telekinesis (super or physical version) because it is not applicable against people. Now granted, this would soon lead to using it on people's clothing, etc., and then I'd end up with a bunch of naked characters running around. To avoid that, and not just make a rule saying no, I did provide an explanation of why it wouldn't work. I first made the ruling saying it wouldn't work on people because I just didn't like the idea of a really easy kill (once or twice I don't mind, but it would be just a standard go to and just make things boring. Yes, I could go through a bunch of motions to counteract it. While a smart tactic, it's still a boring one). I supported this fact that the book always says it can be used on an 'object'. Now, technically, a person's body is an object, but I felt that was more splitting hairs. Object Read I take it to be inanimate objects, not living moving things. Teleport Object is very weight limited to prevent people. Personally, the word 'object' was significant, at least to me. In the various books I checked, none of them had a mention of people or anything living and breathing.

Now, I gave an in game explanation why it doesn't work (as opposed to just making rules, also to avoid the running around naked scenario I mentioned above). See Aura states all things, organic and inorganic, have an aura. I stated this aura differs between the two, and that it is this aura which protects organic individuals from certain psionics (such as telekinesis). As this is an aura, it also protects the items they were wearing. I believe I let it protect armor as well, but not things like backpacks or anything really loose. I will note, this was one of my very first rulings as a GM, but it has worked well for me. Hopefully you enjoyed. And if not, no real harm done (other than the time you took reading this post). Have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Talavar]

Telekinesis doesn't make it that easy to kill people. A GM might ( I stress might) let you do a TK choke ala Darth Vader, if you have line of sight, which you don't if your opponent is wearing almost any form of armour.

Sure, you can grab a person and chuck them into something with TK, but your average person in armour with gear is going to weigh at least 200 lbs, so the ISP cost isn't cheap. Or you can hit them with heavy objects, but lifting 500 lbs of stone or metal is only going to get you 5d4 MD, which is hardly cost effective.

Other combat uses might be holding a person in the air & unable to dodge while your companions shoot them, but the character in question wouldn't be helpless, they'd just have to come up with some other form of work around, other than a generic ME-based saving throw. You could also use it to lob a volley of vibro-swords or something at a person, but +3 to hit is nothing to write home about, and I'm pretty sure you're limited to the number of objects you can manipulate at once to 1 object per level.

[Astral Pantheon]

No save

[St. Evil]

I am w/the minority and feel a save of some sort is needed, mainly because it can lead to a TPK, and I am not about that. edit: Plus it would be a dodge not a save.

[Long Shadow]

I allow a save vs. TK, though I wrote an article explaining the metaphysics of it.

I'm with you on that. BTW I love that article. It's allowed me to put a nice edge to NPC's and PC's for the telekintetic combat.

[Sgt Anjay]

There doesn't seem to be much leeway, other than maybe if the power does indeed specify "object", in which case I wouldn't let it apply to living beings...but of course, then its only a matter of time before armor/clothing/weapons etc become the targets and that's moot anyway.

There does seem to be a slight case of have your cake and eating it too. No save, because duh tk is a physical force and how do you mentally resist something thats physical anyway duh. So I can physically resist it? No, because duh how would you physically resist someone doing something with their mind duh.

So is it a mental attack that could be resisted mentally, or is it physical force that should be resisted physically? Both and neither..heads I win, tails you loose. Bleh.

And it being "invisible"? So I turn a character invisible and their attacks are all auto-hit because "how could you resist something invisible"?

I dunno, it just seems...off.

[Damian Magecraft]

damn double posts.

[Damian Magecraft]

Uh, I'm pretty sure that call lightening is indeed an auto hit. I don't have the books here, but I think it's something like only things w/ the ability to dodge all incomming attacks (ie Juicer) can dodge it. Not 100%, but I'm pretty certain.

only in rifts. (20 to 24+ all others genres)