What you DON'T want to see...

[Nightshade37]

I really like the "meta-plot" information that gets printed in the books, and I wish there would be more of it. If nothing else, it gives the author's vision of how the timeline progresses, and some people, like myself, like incorporating that into their campaigns. It's far easier for a GM to *not* include "meta-plot" that they don't like, than for a GM to create the level of detail found in a series like Siege on Tolkeen.

[Mike Taylor]

no good guy vampires. all vampires should be evil.

I never liked the idea of good "vampires" it kinda takes away from the whole vampire alure. I mean if you are a good "vampire" people (I'm mean hunters nd other things that kill vampires just for being vampires) are still going to hunt you down and kill you so their either running around hiding all the time or they are going to be killing every hunter that comes after them. So yeah Duck-foot I'm with you no good "vampires."

i would also add ... no more panty waisted sissy vampires, they do not need to be bad. they need to be nasty, horrific bad.

I don't think Palladium ever had "sissy" vampires. They aren't really set up that way. It's hard to be Lestat de Lioncourt when the most human-looking vamps (Masters) are just a chess piece for an alien mind.

who said anything about being Lestat? vampires should be vile monsters, not a melodramatic representation of tragic teen life.

EPIC, please pay attention to what I just typed, especially the first two sentences. What I was saying is that the rules as written don't allow for "sissy" vampires. Master vampires, while human looking, have an almost alien mindset that is completely subservient to the Vampire Intelligence. Secondary vampires, while they have a greater degree of free will, don't quite fit the "pretty" image and are still quite brutal. Lastly, wild vampires barely look human at all and are basically ravening, bloodthirsty appetites on legs.

Lestat = sissy vampire.

I hope this clarifies things.

[Rallan]

no good guy vampires. all vampires should be evil.

I never liked the idea of good "vampires" it kinda takes away from the whole vampire alure. I mean if you are a good "vampire" people (I'm mean hunters nd other things that kill vampires just for being vampires) are still going to hunt you down and kill you so their either running around hiding all the time or they are going to be killing every hunter that comes after them. So yeah Duck-foot I'm with you no good "vampires."

i would also add ... no more panty waisted sissy vampires, they do not need to be bad. they need to be nasty, horrific bad.

I don't think Palladium ever had "sissy" vampires. They aren't really set up that way. It's hard to be Lestat de Lioncourt when the most human-looking vamps (Masters) are just a chess piece for an alien mind.

who said anything about being Lestat? vampires should be vile monsters, not a melodramatic representation of tragic teen life.

That's great and all, but Palladium vampires have never been melodramatic or tragic. For better or worse they're b-movie villians, right down to the three kinds of standard vampire standing in for the three b-movie vampire cliches (ravenous inhuman beasts as Wilds, psycho former friends who can pass for human as Secondaries, and the evil goatee-stroking masterminds as Masters). The only real move towards angst they've got is Wampyres, and that's little more than a footnote since they didn't really make much of an effort to flesh wampyres out.

If nothing else, I think we can safely say Kevin Siembieda has never been an Ann Rice fan

[Rallan]

no good guy vampires. all vampires should be evil.

I never liked the idea of good "vampires" it kinda takes away from the whole vampire alure. I mean if you are a good "vampire" people (I'm mean hunters nd other things that kill vampires just for being vampires) are still going to hunt you down and kill you so their either running around hiding all the time or they are going to be killing every hunter that comes after them. So yeah Duck-foot I'm with you no good "vampires."

i would also add ... no more panty waisted sissy vampires, they do not need to be bad. they need to be nasty, horrific bad.

I don't think Palladium ever had "sissy" vampires. They aren't really set up that way. It's hard to be Lestat de Lioncourt when the most human-looking vamps (Masters) are just a chess piece for an alien mind.

who said anything about being Lestat? vampires should be vile monsters, not a melodramatic representation of tragic teen life.

DRACULA, we need a bad mother ****** like Dracula in the world of palladium Vampires! of course I'm a big fan of Castlevania so when I think of Drac thats the version I think of. But my point remains we need a vampire baddy that is super old and super powerful may not for nightbane seeing as they have pittsburg.

Because you're an uncultured kid who has never read Bram Stoker's Dracula?

Let's be honest, the folks who haven't read the original aren't missing out. It wasn't exactly the best horror novel ever written.

[Rallan]

no good guy vampires. all vampires should be evil.

I never liked the idea of good "vampires" it kinda takes away from the whole vampire alure. I mean if you are a good "vampire" people (I'm mean hunters nd other things that kill vampires just for being vampires) are still going to hunt you down and kill you so their either running around hiding all the time or they are going to be killing every hunter that comes after them. So yeah Duck-foot I'm with you no good "vampires."

i would also add ... no more panty waisted sissy vampires, they do not need to be bad. they need to be nasty, horrific bad.

I don't think Palladium ever had "sissy" vampires. They aren't really set up that way. It's hard to be Lestat de Lioncourt when the most human-looking vamps (Masters) are just a chess piece for an alien mind.

who said anything about being Lestat? vampires should be vile monsters, not a melodramatic representation of tragic teen life.

DRACULA, we need a bad mother ****** like Dracula in the world of palladium Vampires! of course I'm a big fan of Castlevania so when I think of Drac thats the version I think of. But my point remains we need a vampire baddy that is super old and super powerful may not for nightbane seeing as they have pittsburg.

Because you're an uncultured kid who has never read Bram Stoker's Dracula?

Let's be honest, the folks who haven't read the original aren't missing out. It wasn't exactly the best horror novel ever written.

But it was the best Bram wrote.

I hope for Bram's sake you're wrong, because if that's the best he wrote then the rest must be awful

[Rallan]

Draculas a very well written book, and history records it as one of the best horror novels ever. Besides that Bram spawned a monster that lives on in the hearts and minds of people for over a hundered years. Dracula seen movies, games, plays, and even other books. Rather you like the book or not Bram's Dracula is going down as one of the best horror novels ever written, I mean the only auther I know of thats made more memrable monsters was H.P Lovecraft but most of his stuff never saw movies (Ok so their are like three movies based on stuff Lovecraft, but not as much as there has been on Dracula)

History records it as one of the most famous horror novels ever. There's a difference. It was cumbersome and not particularly well written, it absolutely butchered the whole "authentic documentary evidence" technique (which was already considered old hat before Bram Stoker had even started writing Dracula), and to top it all off it didn't even do anything that hadn't already been done in horror. As a literary work it's got nothing to make itself stand out from any other disposable bestseller, and as a work of horror its only notable because it was lucky enough to get famous, not because it contributed anything to horror.

Which in a way makes it a bigger failure than the works of H. P. Lovecraft. Because for all Lovecraft was a far worse author (his prose and storylines were genuinely terrible, rather than just being pedestrian like Stoker), ol' H. P. at least injected some genuinely new and original ideas into the genre.

[Stattick]

I DON'T want to see 9/11 as something the Nightlords did. If even mentioned, it should be the same in the setting as it was in the real world - a mundane act of terrorism.

[Rallan]

I DON'T want to see 9/11 as something the Nightlords did. If even mentioned, it should be the same in the setting as it was in the real world - a mundane act of terrorism.

I get the feeling direct references to 9/11 won't be appearing any time soon, since it's still something that American culture shies away from touching except as a serious, straight subject. You're about as likely to see 9/11 in American RPGs as you are to see a nuclear bomb in Japanese anime

The broader "War On Terror" though, that's more or less fair game, since the target audience aren't exactly likely to get offended by storylines about the Nightlords deliberately orchestrating terrorist acts, rebel uprisings, and foreign military intervention around the world as part of their insidious plan (especially since the concept of "new Vietnams" is already part of Nightbane canon, and even dyed in the wool Bushies wouldn't be upset by the notion of an Iraq where America's only stuck in a quagmire because of an evil conspiracy).

[Rallan]

I DON'T want to see 9/11 as something the Nightlords did. If even mentioned, it should be the same in the setting as it was in the real world - a mundane act of terrorism.

I get the feeling direct references to 9/11 won't be appearing any time soon, since it's still something that American culture shies away from touching except as a serious, straight subject. You're about as likely to see 9/11 in American RPGs as you are to see a nuclear bomb in Japanese anime

.

Obviously you have never seen Grave of Fireflies.......there are quite a few animes about the atomic bombing of Japan.

Yes, but avoiding all mention of nukes except for serious historical treatment is something of a cliche in Japanese entertainment in general. You might've noticed that while anime is filled with staggeringly destructive weapons, very few of 'em actually use nuclear weapons.

[BillionSix]

I read Dracula. It had a definate mood to it, and introduced the world to the concept of the seductive vampire, as opposed to the ravening monster.
Not that the concept didn't exist before then, but Dracula made it mainstream.
The only problem I had was mathematical. I mean, every person the vampire bites is doomed to become a vampire? Do the math. That adds up.
Brian

[acreRake]

I don't want to see any one comment from a fan (in this thread or otherwise; including mine) get in the way of a good idea.

[BillionSix]

On to 9/11... As an Anarchist I couldn't care less about the towers getting the shaft, nor the deaths in Affy or Iraq.

The word you are looking for is "a*****e" not "anarchist."

[AlexM]

I have no reason not to Lock this except to point that no sympathy for deaths is a problem here.




Alex Marciniszyn

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

i say lock it.

I say delete the stuff from those who can't play well with others and let us resume the discussion.

Agreed.

~Josh

[BillionSix]

I think even on topic, there wasn't too much more to say.

Sorry about adding to the flamey, by the way.

Brian

[Marcethus]

I DON'T want to see 9/11 as something the Nightlords did. If even mentioned, it should be the same in the setting as it was in the real world - a mundane act of terrorism.

I get the feeling direct references to 9/11 won't be appearing any time soon, since it's still something that American culture shies away from touching except as a serious, straight subject. You're about as likely to see 9/11 in American RPGs as you are to see a nuclear bomb in Japanese anime

.

Obviously you have never seen Grave of Fireflies.......there are quite a few animes about the atomic bombing of Japan.

Yes, but avoiding all mention of nukes except for serious historical treatment is something of a cliche in Japanese entertainment in general. You might've noticed that while anime is filled with staggeringly destructive weapons, very few of 'em actually use nuclear weapons.

What animes do you watch, Hello Kitty? A good portion of Anime deal with post-apocalyptic worlds ravaged by nuke's, and all of them tell you it was a Nuclear war that did that to the world. Animes like Vampire Hunter D, Akira (Tokyo getting blowen up leads to nuclear war), and as I said before Grave of Fireflies. I can agree that we don't need anything involving nukes, terrorist and the Nightlords. NOW let's get this Thread Back on Topic!

Too late it has already been mentioned about how the Nightlords label all the factions as Terrorist elements and the Resistance and the Spook Squad had a plan to use Nukes but were talked down from it due to the Mystically inclined telling them about what happened in Japan when it was nuked, so they had an idea of nuking the Nightlands, well they have stalled it because they aren't sure of what will happen. I think it's listed in Nightlands book.

[Marcethus]

What I do not want to see:

1. New powerful SN beings, The Athanatos while cool and meant to be a small faction do seem to overshadow the nightbane.

2. No new World wide Factions. Fleshing out the current ones would be good.

3. New Super Tech. While I liked the psychic addin to the Spook Squad I don't see them having the resources to build better tech.

Things I wouldn't mind seeing fleshed out:

Factions in the astral plane and the astral politcal landscape could be interesting. also The Insultris and the Tribes of the Moon. Though I know that Tristram has more info on them on his website but still if he would or someone with his permission could flesh them out that would rock.

[Rallan]

i dont want to see creatures of myth get into it. i want original palladium monsters. also id like to see more call of chthulu type stuff.

Call of Cthulhu type stuff wouldn't really suit the tone. Nightbane ain't exactly the most high-falutin' horror RPG on the market, but in its own way its very much a gothic horror piece. It's all about that old time evil and corruption with baddies you can put a face to, and who revel in being absolute bastards. Throwing in some Lovecraftian eldritch horrors from beyond the bounds of time just totally wouldn't sit well with the general vibe of the game, since all the major powers at the moment are distinct individuals with a classic judeochristian Good Vs Evil thing going on. Even the Dark, a faceless, unknowable entity that transcends reality as we know it isn't exactly Cthulhuesque since it represents absolute evil, while the old ones and elder gods of Lovecraft's stories were simply so alien that terms like good and evil were useless in trying to describe their motivations.

Not to mention Palladium's never done a very good job in the past when they tried putting Lovecraftian elements into their games, so I really don't think it's a schtick they should try again any time soon.

[Rallan]

i dont want to see creatures of myth get into it. i want original palladium monsters. also id like to see more call of chthulu type stuff.

Call of Cthulhu type stuff wouldn't really suit the tone. Nightbane ain't exactly the most high-falutin' horror RPG on the market, but in its own way its very much a gothic horror piece. It's all about that old time evil and corruption with baddies you can put a face to, and who revel in being absolute bastards. Throwing in some Lovecraftian eldritch horrors from beyond the bounds of time just totally wouldn't sit well with the general vibe of the game, since all the major powers at the moment are distinct individuals with a classic judeochristian Good Vs Evil thing going on. Even the Dark, a faceless, unknowable entity that transcends reality as we know it isn't exactly Cthulhuesque since it represents absolute evil, while the old ones and elder gods of Lovecraft's stories were simply so alien that terms like good and evil were useless in trying to describe their motivations.

Not to mention Palladium's never done a very good job in the past when they tried putting Lovecraftian elements into their games, so I really don't think it's a schtick they should try again any time soon.

So, you don't like the Old Ones.

Oh I love the Old Ones. The Palladium Old Ones though, they're a horribly cheesy embarassment

[Marrowlight]

Rall, I forget -- which palladium games do you like?

[Rallan]

Rall, I forget -- which palladium games do you like?

Nightbane, bits of Rifts (especially the earlier worldbooks and the Wormwood setting), After The Bomb, and Systems Failure (although I think it was a mistake to saddle a beer and pretzels game with Palladium's normal rule system).

I'm sorry, I must've forgot that some people here can't get their head around the concept of someone liking something without fawning over it. I mean seriously dude, this sort of insular "anyone who says anything critical hates the game" baloney is one of the main reasons Palladium's online fans have such a poor reputation among the broader online roleplaying community.

Also, a counterpoint Marrowdark. What part of the Palladium Old Ones was actually done well?

[Marrowlight]

Rall, I forget -- which palladium games do you like?

Nightbane, bits of Rifts (especially the earlier worldbooks and the Wormwood setting), After The Bomb, and Systems Failure (although I think it was a mistake to saddle a beer and pretzels game with Palladium's normal rule system).

I'm sorry, I must've forgot that some people here can't get their head around the concept of someone liking something without fawning over it. I mean seriously dude, this sort of insular "anyone who says anything critical hates the game" baloney is one of the main reasons Palladium's online fans have such a poor reputation among the broader online roleplaying community.

Also, a counterpoint Marrowdark. What part of the Palladium Old Ones was actually done well?

uhm, first off -- back the hell off.

You above all others around these parts are prone to over exaggerative statements usually with a negative slant, so I guess a lil over reaction on your part is to be expected, but in no way was my post an attack on you. I just rarely ever see a post of yours that is a positive post, in any forum, so I took the opportunity to ask.

Go ahead and try to find some real posts where I'm really attacking someone because they aren't fawning over a palladium product. You won't find any, but feel free to try. Why? Because while I don't wave it around like a red flag hoping for a bull, I'm usually one of the lesser fans of a lot of the things Palladium has done. I'm certainly not going to attack people for not doing something I myself have virtually never done.

Now, moving on. While it's been a while since I read through them, I can't say there was much about the old ones that I liked. Their intricate connection to all things magic, while it wasn't my cup of tea, was well done. Their connections to the Minotaurs in particular and all the death cults and what not, again which I do not like, was also at least well done.

The concept of using their names in connection with the various circle magic of the Summoner added a nice bit of flair.

The bleed off from Old Ones to other alien intelligences and races like the Splugorth was a good design decision.

With that said, there's not much else to it on my end -- I wasn't trying to defend the Old Ones, it was just a good opportunity to see what you're actually up on in regards to Palladium products.

[Jesterzzn]

I'm sorry, I must've forgot that some people here can't get their head around the concept of someone liking something without fawning over it. I mean seriously dude, this sort of insular "anyone who says anything critical hates the game" baloney is one of the main reasons Palladium's online fans have such a poor reputation among the broader online roleplaying community.

Whoa, that's out'a left field. There are definitely some palladium nutt-huggers on this board, but Marrow has never come across as one of them.

[Marrowlight]

There are definitely some palladium nutt-huggers on this board,

With that said, to get all this back on topic for Josh -- did a little more thinking, and I would not want to see the destruction of a faction. The Nightbane Main Book left the world with the sensation of balancing on the edge of a knife, and even a lil progression could see one or more factions getting shredded. I'd rather not see that kind of meta plot advancement in a new nightbane book. Not until we're at like book 20-25 anyway.

[Rallan]

I'm sorry, I must've forgot that some people here can't get their head around the concept of someone liking something without fawning over it. I mean seriously dude, this sort of insular "anyone who says anything critical hates the game" baloney is one of the main reasons Palladium's online fans have such a poor reputation among the broader online roleplaying community.

Whoa, that's out'a left field. There are definitely some palladium nutt-huggers on this board, but Marrow has never come across as one of them.

Well it was kinda the second time in one thread that a post of mine was dismissed that way, so I don't think my reply was entirely out of left field. Although since it looks like that wasn't the cut of marrowdark's jib after all I'm feeling slightly sheepish now

[Marrowlight]

I'm sorry, I must've forgot that some people here can't get their head around the concept of someone liking something without fawning over it. I mean seriously dude, this sort of insular "anyone who says anything critical hates the game" baloney is one of the main reasons Palladium's online fans have such a poor reputation among the broader online roleplaying community.

Whoa, that's out'a left field. There are definitely some palladium nutt-huggers on this board, but Marrow has never come across as one of them.

Well it was kinda the second time in one thread that a post of mine was dismissed that way, so I don't think my reply was entirely out of left field. Although since it looks like that wasn't the cut of marrowdark's jib after all I'm feeling slightly sheepish now

ah-ha, once everyone started breaking Josh's rule and saying what they wanted to see in the book, as opposed to what they didn't want to see, I stopped keeping an eye on it -- didn't realize someone else had legitimately tried to dismiss yah.


Also, while I'm sure someone else has covered this -- unless it is so damn original that it deserves to be printed on platinum to properly express its value, NO NEW MORPHUS TABLES. That is all.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

This thread has jumped the tracks more times than a hobo on a pogo stick.

Heh... hobo... pogo.,,

~ Josh

[Rallan]

Also, while I'm sure someone else has covered this -- unless it is so damn original that it deserves to be printed on platinum to properly express its value, NO NEW MORPHUS TABLES. That is all.

Too bad. They pad out the page count without requiring any effort on the part of the writer, so you'll keep seeing more of 'em

[Warwolf]

Also, while I'm sure someone else has covered this -- unless it is so damn original that it deserves to be printed on platinum to properly express its value, NO NEW MORPHUS TABLES. That is all.

Too bad. They pad out the page count without requiring any effort on the part of the writer, so you'll keep seeing more of 'em

Yeah, cause good tables that balance well with the system are just cake to write up... give me a break...

Coming from someone who has written a couple in his time, they DO require effort and are liked by several people (myself included).

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Also, while I'm sure someone else has covered this -- unless it is so damn original that it deserves to be printed on platinum to properly express its value, NO NEW MORPHUS TABLES. That is all.

Too bad. They pad out the page count without requiring any effort on the part of the writer, so you'll keep seeing more of 'em

Yeah, cause good tables that balance well with the system are just cake to write up... give me a break...

Coming from someone who has written a couple in his time, they DO require effort and are liked by several people (myself included).

Who let you out of your cage?

But yes, there's a reason some around here wonder if there is anything Palladium did that Rallan actually liked as published.

Oh Geez, not that again...

~Josh

[Rallan]

Also, while I'm sure someone else has covered this -- unless it is so damn original that it deserves to be printed on platinum to properly express its value, NO NEW MORPHUS TABLES. That is all.

Too bad. They pad out the page count without requiring any effort on the part of the writer, so you'll keep seeing more of 'em

Yeah, cause good tables that balance well with the system are just cake to write up... give me a break...

Coming from someone who has written a couple in his time, they DO require effort and are liked by several people (myself included).

Who let you out of your cage?

But yes, there's a reason some around here wonder if there is anything Palladium did that Rallan actually liked as published.

We're talking the company that gave us "swimsuit editions" of the Rifters, and some of the worst RPG-based novels in the history of publishing, and you're surprised that some of us find things to criticize in Palladium's products?

[Rallan]

Also, while I'm sure someone else has covered this -- unless it is so damn original that it deserves to be printed on platinum to properly express its value, NO NEW MORPHUS TABLES. That is all.

Too bad. They pad out the page count without requiring any effort on the part of the writer, so you'll keep seeing more of 'em

Yeah, cause good tables that balance well with the system are just cake to write up... give me a break...

Coming from someone who has written a couple in his time, they DO require effort and are liked by several people (myself included).

Who let you out of your cage?

But yes, there's a reason some around here wonder if there is anything Palladium did that Rallan actually liked as published.

We're talking the company that gave us "swimsuit editions" of the Rifters, and some of the worst RPG-based novels in the history of publishing, and you're surprised that some of us find things to criticize in Palladium's products?

*Looks at his "Editing" and "Actual Megaversal Rules" soapboxes. Not surprising at all. It's more that we haven't gotten a clear picture of what you do like of Palladium's. And what do you mean "some of" on the novels?

I'm giving Palladium the benefit of the doubt there. I haven't read every RPG novel ever written, so there's always a chance someone else might've managed to put out something worse

[Rallan]

Also, while I'm sure someone else has covered this -- unless it is so damn original that it deserves to be printed on platinum to properly express its value, NO NEW MORPHUS TABLES. That is all.

Too bad. They pad out the page count without requiring any effort on the part of the writer, so you'll keep seeing more of 'em

Yeah, cause good tables that balance well with the system are just cake to write up... give me a break...

Coming from someone who has written a couple in his time, they DO require effort and are liked by several people (myself included).

Who let you out of your cage?

But yes, there's a reason some around here wonder if there is anything Palladium did that Rallan actually liked as published.

We're talking the company that gave us "swimsuit editions" of the Rifters, and some of the worst RPG-based novels in the history of publishing, and you're surprised that some of us find things to criticize in Palladium's products?

*Looks at his "Editing" and "Actual Megaversal Rules" soapboxes. Not surprising at all. It's more that we haven't gotten a clear picture of what you do like of Palladium's. And what do you mean "some of" on the novels?

I'm giving Palladium the benefit of the doubt there. I haven't read every RPG novel ever written, so there's always a chance someone else might've managed to put out something worse

Can we agree top ten?

Yeah that's probably a safe assumption. If I ever bother doing a review of Sonic Boom, the only nice thing I'll be able to say about it is that I didn't have to pay for my copy

[Marrowlight]

Lots of stuff

You do realize you're allowed to go beyond the books with your games, right?

Liar!

[Warwolf]

I don't think there's really anything new to add to this setting that hasn't already been provided by other palladium setting books (that doesn't break the conversion discussion rule does it?).

The "No Conversions" rule applies specifically to non-PB products. Converting between different Palladium systems is allowed, though IP distinction may make that somewhat difficult for the writers of Palladium.

[Rallan]

Lots of stuff

You do realize you're allowed to go beyond the books with your games, right?

You do realise that's the biggest copout ever in a discussion about whether the games are good or not, right?

[Rallan]

*I don't want to see* a source book that ignores the dynamic change earth would have undergone a decade since a suprise supernatural attack on the planet.

That'd be a bit tricky, since the main premise of Nightbane is that the war for control of the planet is almost entirely a secret war being fought out behind the scenes. The Nightlords go to great pains to convince the people of Earth that nothing unusual is going on, because their work would get an awful lot harder if they suddenly had to face the military might of modern Earth. And the various organized groups fighting against the Nightlords go to great pains to keep everything secret because a) they'd be toast if the Nightlords had good intelligence about them and b) they're worried that mankind would hunt them down as witches and monsters.

Even ten years after Dark Day, Earth probably wouldn't be all that different from the real world. It'd be a nastier, shabbier, more dysfunctional place to live, but to the average observer things wouldn't really seem all that unusual compared to life before Dark Day (which, incidentally, would be the only bizarre thing most folks in the setting are aware of, even if a whole new body of urban myths about monsters and magic is springing up). Basically its more or less exactly the same schtick you see in the World Of Darkness games by White Wolf.

and

*I don't want to see* a sourcebook that overlooks how the various factions have dealt with combating beings that normal weapons are incapable of harming.

Well you haven't seen it so far, and you're not likely to any time soon. With the exception of the Spook Squad, most of the big factions are dominated either by supernatural beings or by mages and psychics, all of whom have various ways of hitting monsters where it hurts. And as for the Spook Squad itself, the treatment it got in Between The Shadows shows that its organized and informed enough to make sure its field agents have got the right tools to do the job. Plus of course very few beings in the game (other than vampires) are actually immune to anything, so just packing explosives or bigger guns is generally enough to get around the problem of supernatural critters being hard to kill. rule does it?).

[Rallan]

Lots of stuff

You do realize you're allowed to go beyond the books with your games, right?

You do realise that's the biggest copout ever in a discussion about whether the games are good or not, right?

I'll pose the same question for you both. If you hate so many aspects of the games, why do you play? Sorry Rallan, I still have yet to see you say what you DO like about Palladium.

Nostalgia. Rifts was the first RPG I played that wasn't just Dungeons & Dragons. And for all that I think the mechanics are clunky and the game has long since degenerated into cartoonish silliness, there were some nifty ideas in there and some of the earlier books kicked ass in their own right (I still say Wormwood should've been its own RPG).

And while Nightbane has the same game mechanic problems (let's be honest, Palladium's system hasn't really stood the test of time very well), and a bit of the same corniness, it's still managed to be the niftiest product Palladium have put out in a long time. It also has potential for styles of play that Palladium's products don't often encourage, and Carella (and Hassall in Through The Glass Darkly) at least made an effort to try and encourage some of that, even if it's a bit of an uphill struggle against both the rules and the typical playing style of Palladium fans. And while it probably won't be remembered as one of the great horror RPGs of all time (Call of Cthulhu has the horror side covered, and roleplaying and character development are all sewn up by World of Darkness), it's got a certain two-fisted enthusiasm that you need in a horror RPG now and then. Staying two steps ahead of madness and stygian horrors is all well and good, and struggling with your inhuman nature in a world of dangerous secrets has a certain charm, but sometimes you just wanna play an eight giant butt-ugly mutant with six arms and blow away the governor's evil twin with a bazooka, and there's no better horror RPG for that than Nightbane

[Rallan]

Awesome. I can't say I agree with you about the mechanics not holding up well, unless you mean by the company's editing and random rule additions, but still. We all certainly have our favorite pet peeves about Palladium.

Nah I don't give a damn about the changes, I use the rules pretty much as they were when Rifts first came out. And even without the changes, it's a crap system. Everything about it is just 1st ed AD&D with some houserules (except for the Skills section, which manages to be the worst part of Palladium's rules despite not being stolen from D&D like the rest of the system was).

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Wait... what was this thread about again?

I'm currently eating Frosted Flakes.

My neighbors have a huge weeping willow in their yard... though from here it only appears moderately upset...

~Josh

[Rockwolf66]

We're talking the company that gave us "swimsuit editions" of the Rifters, and some of the worst RPG-based novels in the history of publishing, and you're surprised that some of us find things to criticize in Palladium's products?

You never read the Cyberpunk2020 novels have you?

One thing that i would like to see is the energy weapons in the back of the main rule book get a new look and some background( ie. who made them and who has them).

One thing i don't want to see is another book that does not fit a regions vibe. (ie a book that shows a RL culture in a way that is way out of context and filled with cultural inaccuracies).

[Rallan]

We're talking the company that gave us "swimsuit editions" of the Rifters, and some of the worst RPG-based novels in the history of publishing, and you're surprised that some of us find things to criticize in Palladium's products?

You never read the Cyberpunk2020 novels have you?

There's a reason I only said "some of". RPG fiction is a playground for crappy authors, especially if it's not for large money-making franchises like D&D (at least TSR, and later WotC, could afford professional hacks to write their disposable fantasy novels). Sonic Boom was one of the most thoroughly unenjoyable books I ever read, but given the craptitude of the genre I didn't wanna make myself look silly by calling it number one

[TechnoGothic]

I DO NOT WANT TO SEE :::

@ Fake Gods (Only actual gods from mythology will be accepted) Returning to the World. Even in Secret.
@ More Morphus tables...unless the Mainbook tables are updated to include all the newer morphus tables so we have One Book for all the Morphus material in one place
@ More useless OCCs...new OCCs need to add something to the setting. A Few Megaversal Crossover OCCs would not be bad. Or bring over a few RCCs from another game for Nightbane. SOULTAKERS (Land of the Damnned) would work great in Nightbane.
@ Useless information about the Guardians.... Only useful information about them should be printed. Not too much information about their origin however. But on what they are up to and maybe varient Guardian RCCs like an Ex-Guardian RCC (Black Guard RCC). Someone who fell out of favor with their source of power for some reason...

[Rallan]

I'm not sure I wanna see useful information about the Guardians actually. They work best if they're kept mysterious, and Palladium doesn't seem to have White Wolf's knack for keeping things just as ambiguous after ten books as they were in the first book. Once we've got concrete facts about where the Guardians come from and what their agenda is, all the mystery's gonna be sucked out of 'em.

[Corren]

Lets see... What I don't want to see:

I do NOT want to see a great company shoot itself in the foot because, instead of focusing on what customers WANT to see, they worry about what customers DO NOT want to see.

-------------------------------------------


What I do NOT NOT want to see, however _~~:

More information on the Reshapers.
More information on the Formless Ones.
All the morphus tables under one roof, and then some.
More background info on the Nightlands.
More cannon less do it yourself.

(Now how am I going to sue for plagiarism up there?)

Seriously though, this whole thing about being scared to give more facts and this poor mans attempt at mystery in an effort to have DM and players fabricate their own cannon so we can all have cannon wars about what’s fact and what isn’t in the NB universe is getting real old real quick. Satisfy us rules lawyers please.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

How is Palladium shooting itself in the foot regarding this thread?

I don't work for Palladium, I am not a Palladium employee.

~Josh

[Corren]

How is Palladium shooting itself in the foot regarding this thread?

I don't work for Palladium, I am not a Palladium employee.

~Josh

How is Palladium shooting itself in the foot? Simple. Instead of focusing on what customers want, your focusing on what we don't want. Thats a negative attitude that hurts creativity, because you don't know what people are willing to pay you for.

Old saying: "You don't give what they need, you give them what they want"

Minus the need part, the question asked at the beginning of this post makes it hard for Palladium to know what we actually want - hence they will suffer; no one buys what they DON'T want, but they do buy want they DO want. And all this because Palladium is so scared of being sued.

You can have customers tell you what they want in a general enough way to not be in danger of taking someones ideas.

Good example:

- I want more information on Guardians.

See? General enough so that no ideas are given away, and yet you know what I want to see. Now you can give me what I would be willing to pay you for, and keep me happy. Notice I cant sue you with this idea.

Bad example:

- I want to find out that the Guardians were created by the good AI named "The Light Teddy Bear" in a concerted effort to kill vampires and "The Dark's" minions.

Now I've given ideas that can be taken and used by Palladium. And if I don't get credit, then I can sue.

There is a way to find out what people want without going into specifics. Do that instead of finding out what people don't want.

P.S. If you want to use that bad example I wont sue =)_~~

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

How is Palladium shooting itself in the foot regarding this thread?

I don't work for Palladium, I am not a Palladium employee.

~Josh

How is Palladium shooting itself in the foot? Simple. Instead of focusing on what customers want, your focusing on what we don't want. Thats a negative attitude that hurts creativity, because you don't know what people are willing to pay you for.

Old saying: "You don't give what they need, you give them what they want"

Minus the need part, the question asked at the beginning of this post makes it hard for Palladium to know what we actually want - hence they will suffer; no one buys what they DON'T want, but they do buy want they DO want. And all this because Palladium is so scared of being sued.

You can have customers tell you what they want in a general enough way to not be in danger of taking someones ideas.

Good example:

- I want more information on Guardians.

See? General enough so that no ideas are given away, and yet you know what I want to see. Now you can give me what I would be willing to pay you for, and keep me happy. Notice I cant sue you with this idea.

Bad example:

- I want to find out that the Guardians were created by the good AI named "The Light Teddy Bear" in a concerted effort to kill vampires and "The Dark's" minions.

Now I've given ideas that can be taken and used by Palladium. And if I don't get credit, then I can sue.

There is a way to find out what people want without going into specifics. Do that instead of finding out what people don't want.

P.S. If you want to use that bad example I wont sue =)_~~

Again, how is PALLADIUM shooting itself in the foot?

Palladium did not start this thread, nor did they ask me to. I am not a representative of Palladium.

~Josh

[TechnoGothic]

I do not want to see people saying Palladium is shooting their foot when someone who does not work for Palladium asks a simple Question about what they do not want to see in a PB-Nightbane book....

[Marrowlight]

I am not a representative of Palladium.

~Josh

Oh thank God.