Telekinesis Used for Lock Picking?

[GaredBattlespike]

Hi, I have Searched the site, and cannot find an answer to this idea/question: "Can a Psychic, who has the Lock Pick Skill, use TK to pick locks?"

Well?
1) Is it possible?
2) If so, what bonus/penalty to the Skill Roll(%)?
3) Reason for your answer(please).

Thank you, Gared Battlespike.

[asajosh]

Isn't TK limited to line of sight?
If it is, then the internal workings of a lock (im assuming a mechanical key type lock) are off limits for TK.
However if the psychic is using telekinesis to maniuplate lock picking tools, then I'd allow it, assiging a 15% penalty. IRL lockpicking requires a sense of touch whice you lose using telekinesis. DOn't ask me why a buddy o mine is a locksmith and he finds it much easier to use his tools without gloves, says he has an easier time when he can "feel things".

GL

[Killer Cyborg]

Hi, I have Searched the site, and cannot find an answer to this idea/question: "Can a Psychic, who has the Lock Pick Skill, use TK to pick locks?"

Well?
1) Is it possible?
2) If so, what bonus/penalty to the Skill Roll(%)?
3) Reason for your answer(please).

Thank you, Gared Battlespike.

1. No.
2. N/A.
3. TK doesn't have a sense of touch, so you can't feel what you're doing, and you can't see the pins in order to work them (not without specialized equipment).

[Captain Shiva]

How about ectoplasm(which, I believe does grant a sense of touch?) Another possibility that occurred to me: what if you used Telemechanics to "read" the lock and develop an intimate knowledge of its inner workings?

[Library Ogre]

How about ectoplasm(which, I believe does grant a sense of touch?) Another possibility that occurred to me: what if you used Telemechanics to "read" the lock and develop an intimate knowledge of its inner workings?

Ectoplasm, when a solid form, can't get small enough to manipulate locks (limited to the size of a quarter). When in vapor, it's not strong enough (a few ounces), except for very delicate locks.

Of course, the BTS2 psychic power Open Lock will do it, no problem.

[drewkitty ~..~]

1. No.
2. N/A.
3. TK doesn't have a sense of touch, so you can't feel what you're doing, and you can't see the pins in order to work them (not without specialized equipment).

1) KC is correct
2) KC is correct
3 Becasue all the TK powers are Line of Sight powers. (ie: you have to see what you are manipulating.)

If your char has not x-ray vision, then you can not move what is inside something.

[livewire]

i used to be a locksmith and it would be quite difficult to pick a lock without being able to feel the what position the pins are in. if a psi was using tk to manipulate the picking tools i would give a fairly large penalty to their skill roll such as negitive 30% to 50% for the lack of being able to feel the lock this is a fairly important thing when picking a lock

[GaredBattlespike]

OK, everyone. I hear the concensus is that by itself, TK cannot be used as lock picks and that what I wanted to know.

As to Ectoplasm, I'll have to look that up, but agree that Telemechanics would be a HUGE help!

Again, thank you.

GaredBattlespike, Fan of the Megaverse.

[verdilak]

OK, everyone. I hear the concensus is that by itself, TK cannot be used as lock picks and that what I wanted to know.

As to Ectoplasm, I'll have to look that up, but agree that Telemechanics would be a HUGE help!

Again, thank you.

GaredBattlespike, Fan of the Megaverse.

Actually, I would say telekinesis WOULD be able to pick a lock, provided the char knows how a lock works. I mean, yea, it's my sight, but if you have the schematics in your head and you close your eyes right in front of the lock, then you are going by mental sight. So, yea, I would allow it and have allowed it. Especially if you are using astral projection at the same time.

Another thing, I would say that ectoplasm would DEFINATLY unlock a lock, without the lock picking skill. Anyone ever hear about Bump Keys?

[t0m]

hey dont forget those lockpick guns. all you have to do is stick the tool end into the lock and rapidly pull the trigger till the lock opens. could prolly do that with tk. depends on the setting though. obviously not going to happen in a fantasy game...and actually in rifts it might not either. wouldnt most locks at that point be electronic?

[Killer Cyborg]

Telekinesis only works if the target is clearly visible.
Picturing it in your head, no matter how accurately, doesn't count.

[verdilak]

Telekinesis only works if the target is clearly visible.
Picturing it in your head, no matter how accurately, doesn't count.

Then look inside the lock with a magnifying glass. All you need to see are the pins to push them up.


I still say that I GM it the way I do, since it makes sense. You dont even NEED a lock picking skill, all you need is a bump key.

[Killer Cyborg]

Telekinesis only works if the target is clearly visible.
Picturing it in your head, no matter how accurately, doesn't count.

Then look inside the lock with a magnifying glass. All you need to see are the pins to push them up.

You'll need a flashlight too, but yeah; that would work.

[demos606]

Sorry Verdilak, but picking a lock is considerably more complicated than just pushing the pins up. Above the tumblers (pins in the cyliner) are wafers (smaller, flat pieces) and springs. The springs and wafers push down on the pins and when the wafers/pins are all flush with the top of the cylinder you can turn the lock. Even with the best magnifying optics in existance today you can't see the wafers from outside the lock so you'll need some sort of x-ray vision to make this work. Neither TK nor ectoplasm would be able to pick a lock, nor would telemechanics by itself, though TM possession and/or operation would do the trick.

For something like a car door it's worse still for attempting to open the locks with TK since there's no way to actually see the 'pins'. To make matters worse, the pins are an entirely different design than what's used in 'normal' locks and they have to line up on both sides of the cyliner before it will turn.

[verdilak]

Telekinesis only works if the target is clearly visible.
Picturing it in your head, no matter how accurately, doesn't count.

Then look inside the lock with a magnifying glass. All you need to see are the pins to push them up.

You'll need a flashlight too, but yeah; that would work.

Yea, or nightvision heh

[verdilak]

Sorry Verdilak, but picking a lock is considerably more complicated than just pushing the pins up. Above the tumblers (pins in the cyliner) are wafers (smaller, flat pieces) and springs. The springs and wafers push down on the pins and when the wafers/pins are all flush with the top of the cylinder you can turn the lock. Even with the best magnifying optics in existance today you can't see the wafers from outside the lock so you'll need some sort of x-ray vision to make this work. Neither TK nor ectoplasm would be able to pick a lock, nor would telemechanics by itself, though TM possession and/or operation would do the trick.

For something like a car door it's worse still for attempting to open the locks with TK since there's no way to actually see the 'pins'. To make matters worse, the pins are an entirely different design than what's used in 'normal' locks and they have to line up on both sides of the cyliner before it will turn.

Astral Projection and Telekinesis. And picking locks are not hard at all, especially if you have a bump key. 15 seconds and you are in.

[NMI]

insert TK force and expand. pushes all the tumbles out of the way. turn the force and lock is open.

[Killer Cyborg]

insert TK force and expand. pushes all the tumbles out of the way. turn the force and lock is open.

The Telekinesis power doesn't create force like that; it only allows you to move visible objects.

[asajosh]

Seriously whats wrong with just using TK (or ectoplasm) to manipulate lock picking tools? No line of sight issues, just assign a penalty and move on.

No tools? Try TK to rip the lock off. If that can't do it, you may be SOL as far as psionics go.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously whats wrong with just using TK (or ectoplasm) to manipulate lock picking tools? No line of sight issues, just assign a penalty and move on.

TK doesn't convey sense of touch.

No tools? Try TK to rip the lock off. If that can't do it, you may be SOL as far as psionics go.

[asajosh]

Seriously whats wrong with just using TK (or ectoplasm) to manipulate lock picking tools? No line of sight issues, just assign a penalty and move on.

TK doesn't convey sense of touch.

Hence the penalty for the lock pick attempt. Maybe I was too generous with only a -15% penalty. Maybe a -35% penalty is more appropriate.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously whats wrong with just using TK (or ectoplasm) to manipulate lock picking tools? No line of sight issues, just assign a penalty and move on.

TK doesn't convey sense of touch.

Hence the penalty for the lock pick attempt. Maybe I was too generous with only a -15% penalty. Maybe a -35% penalty is more appropriate.

At least.

Even sticking a pick on the end of a pole would give you some sensation of what the pick is doing, but TK doesn't give any at all.

[asajosh]

Even sticking a pick on the end of a pole would give you some sensation of what the pick is doing, but TK doesn't give any at all.

LOL I can just imagine a jail break scenario that requires the use of a pole

[demos606]

Seriously whats wrong with just using TK (or ectoplasm) to manipulate lock picking tools? No line of sight issues, just assign a penalty and move on.

No tools? Try TK to rip the lock off. If that can't do it, you may be SOL as far as psionics go.

What's wrong with just using TK to blast the door off it's hinges to begin with? Use the power the way it's meant to be used and quit screwin around already

[asajosh]

Seriously whats wrong with just using TK (or ectoplasm) to manipulate lock picking tools? No line of sight issues, just assign a penalty and move on.

No tools? Try TK to rip the lock off. If that can't do it, you may be SOL as far as psionics go.

What's wrong with just using TK to blast the door off it's hinges to begin with? Use the power the way it's meant to be used and quit screwin around already

Exactly! Finese is for brain surgeons and ballet dancers!

[glitterboy2098]

How about ectoplasm(which, I believe does grant a sense of touch?) Another possibility that occurred to me: what if you used Telemechanics to "read" the lock and develop an intimate knowledge of its inner workings?

Telemechanics would be huge boost as you could tell where the tumblers are, but it's almost impossible for the average psychic to do two powers at the same time. I'd probably allow Ectoplasm though, and use Telemech in between.

Telemechanics should let you know the combo of safes (old time safes), just by interfacing with them. New fangled ones with electronics might be tougher, especially those with time locks, unless you have the Telemech Ops or Possession too.

The Machine Man RCC from Phase World, could probably overcome either type (safe or lock), just by machine melding with them and controlling them.

without rereading the telemechanics power, i'd say old style analog mechanisms like dial based combination locks and key locks would be very hard if not impossible to read using telemechanics.

at the most, you'd be able to find out the exact type of lock mechanism, but you would not be able to read the combination or know where the tumblers are. one of those "just a little too simple" problems.

using the power on electrical or digital based ones might get you the code though. a bit more complex, thus easier to read.


but i may just be biased towards the idea that telemechanics is a psychic adaption to high technology, and that primitive stuff relying entirely on gears and springs is just 'below the threshold' for the powers use.

[NMI]

How about ectoplasm(which, I believe does grant a sense of touch?) Another possibility that occurred to me: what if you used Telemechanics to "read" the lock and develop an intimate knowledge of its inner workings?

Telemechanics would be huge boost as you could tell where the tumblers are, but it's almost impossible for the average psychic to do two powers at the same time. I'd probably allow Ectoplasm though, and use Telemech in between.

Telemechanics should let you know the combo of safes (old time safes), just by interfacing with them. New fangled ones with electronics might be tougher, especially those with time locks, unless you have the Telemech Ops or Possession too.

The Machine Man RCC from Phase World, could probably overcome either type (safe or lock), just by machine melding with them and controlling them.

without rereading the telemechanics power, i'd say old style analog mechanisms like dial based combination locks and key locks would be very hard if not impossible to read using telemechanics.

at the most, you'd be able to find out the exact type of lock mechanism, but you would not be able to read the combination or know where the tumblers are. one of those "just a little too simple" problems.

using the power on electrical or digital based ones might get you the code though. a bit more complex, thus easier to read.


but i may just be biased towards the idea that telemechanics is a psychic adaption to high technology, and that primitive stuff relying entirely on gears and springs is just 'below the threshold' for the powers use.

But GB, the telemechanics psi-power in HU2, Rifts, Nightbane and everywhere else it is mentioned, says that it is effective on bicycles. No electronics involved with bicycles.

[asajosh]

Aye, it is called Telemechanics not Telelectronics

[Killer Cyborg]

You can use Telemechanics on a wedge, or an inclined plane; it works on any machine.

It wouldn't do you much good, but you could do it.

[Thinyser]

You can use Telemechanics on a wedge, or an inclined plane; it works on any machine.

It wouldn't do you much good, but you could do it.

What about solid state electronics? No moving parts so nothing to make "work", as definded by physiscs, easier... only electrons moving.

Is a lamp a machine? How about a SSDP LASER?

It all boils down to what you consider a "machine".

When I think machine I think "moving parts" not resisted electron flow or electronics... unless they have moving parts.

I play the telemechanics more as teletechnology, where technology is anything created to perform a function, than as actual tele(thingswithmovingparts)mechanics. This is to say that the item have to "perform a function" ie actively do something. Things like couches are created and they serve a purpose but they don't really "do" anything other than sit there waiting to be sat on.

[asajosh]

You can use Telemechanics on a wedge, or an inclined plane; it works on any machine.

It wouldn't do you much good, but you could do it.

What about solid state electronics? No moving parts so nothing to make "work", as definded by physiscs, easier... only electrons moving.

Is a lamp a machine? How about a SSDP LASER?

It all boils down to what you consider a "machine".

When I think machine I think "moving parts" not resisted electron flow or electronics... unless they have moving parts.

I play the telemechanics more as teletechnology, where technology is anything created to perform a function, than as actual tele(thingswithmovingparts)mechanics. This is to say that the item have to "perform a function" ie actively do something. Things like couches are created and they serve a purpose but they don't really "do" anything other than sit there waiting to be sat on.

Well, technically your logic is fine. According to canon, however, Telemechanics (operation, paralysis, etc) function on computers/electronics just fine.

[Killer Cyborg]

You can use Telemechanics on a wedge, or an inclined plane; it works on any machine.

It wouldn't do you much good, but you could do it.

What about solid state electronics? No moving parts so nothing to make "work", as definded by physiscs, easier... only electrons moving.

The power says nothing about requiring moving parts.

Is a lamp a machine? How about a SSDP LASER?

Yes.

It all boils down to what you consider a "machine".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/machine
1. an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work: a sewing machine.
2. a mechanical apparatus or contrivance; mechanism.
3. Mechanics.
a. a device that transmits or modifies force or motion.
b. Also called simple machine. any of six or more elementary mechanisms, as the lever, wheel and axle, pulley, screw, wedge, and inclined plane.
c. Also called complex machine. a combination of simple machines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine
The scientific definition of a machine is any device that transmits or modifies energy.

item have to "perform a function" ie actively do something. Things like couches are created and they serve a purpose but they don't really "do" anything other than sit there waiting to be sat on.

They don't really transmit or modify energy either, so they're not machines.

[Thinyser]

You can use Telemechanics on a wedge, or an inclined plane; it works on any machine.

It wouldn't do you much good, but you could do it.

What about solid state electronics? No moving parts so nothing to make "work", as definded by physiscs, easier... only electrons moving.

The power says nothing about requiring moving parts.

No but from what I know a machine requires the reduction of, or alteration of, force* to be considered a machine

Is a lamp a machine? How about a SSDP LASER?

Yes.

It all boils down to what you consider a "machine".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/machine
1. an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work: a sewing machine.
2. a mechanical apparatus or contrivance; mechanism.
3. Mechanics.
a. a device that transmits or modifies force or motion.
b. Also called simple machine. any of six or more elementary mechanisms, as the lever, wheel and axle, pulley, screw, wedge, and inclined plane.
c. Also called complex machine. a combination of simple machines

By all of those lamps and lasers are not machines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine
The scientific definition of a machine is any device that transmits or modifies energy.

From what I learned in physics I don't think the scientific definition of machine is "any device that transmits or modifies energy". Its any device that transmits or modifies force*.

item have to "perform a function" ie actively do something. Things like couches are created and they serve a purpose but they don't really "do" anything other than sit there waiting to be sat on.

They don't really transmit or modify energy either, so they're not machines.

I never said they did, though they are technology of a sort.

However if you think about it they do transmit energy. You sit on a couch, it transmits the force of you body moving to the floor and stops your motion.



*Force being kenetic (ie mechanical) energy (push, pull, lift, etc) only.

[asajosh]

Thinyser, don't over analyse the suffix mechanics
This is Rifts, not real life, sometimes you have to suspend logic
Just check the psi-power description. Telemech (and all its flavors) can effect computers and electronics.

And may I highly reccomend NOT getting into a symantic argument with Killer Cyborg? 1) on this one he's right. And 2) he's... well... KC, check that description about punching oncoming waves. The metaphor is pretty accurate.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm just saying that telemechanics shouldn't be able to give you the combination for mechanical locks. you might be able to 'see' the mechanism and understand how it works, but you can't just touch it and know how the exact combo. thats just a bit too powerful. now, you might be able to use TM while turning the tumblers or using picks, as a sort of replacement for the "ear to the lock" method, but even then, your looking at the use of the pick locks skill, maybe at a +10% bonus for the TM ability in use.

[Thinyser]

Thinyser, don't over analyse the suffix mechanics
This is Rifts, not real life, sometimes you have to suspend logic
Just check the psi-power description. Telemech (and all its flavors) can effect computers and electronics.

And may I highly reccomend NOT getting into a symantic argument with Killer Cyborg? 1) on this one he's right. And 2) he's... well... KC, check that description about punching oncoming waves. The metaphor is pretty accurate.

Thats why I don't play it as telemechanics but rather as teletechnology

It does work on non mechainical technology. I fully understand this and therefore think that the title of the power does not fully fit the descibed abilties. Machines require the reduction or alteration of force. Force being kenetic (ie mechanical) energy.

A lightbulb is not a machine but telemchanics will still tell the user what a lightbulb's components are and what they do. Teletechnology is a better term IMO.

[asajosh]

Agreed the name is a little mis-leading.

[dark brandon]

For TK, I'd allow it with tools at a probably 45% penalty. I'd probably allow someone to use TK alone if they first hit it with Telemechanics

Ectoplasm I don't see a problem in using with tools.

[NMI]

I would allow a person to while actively using telemechanics to turn the handle/lock/whatever to know when the pins fall into place and therefor unlock the lock.

Of course then there is telemechanics operation, paralysis and possession.

[Killer Cyborg]

[quote="Killer Cyborg"It all boils down to what you consider a "machine".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/machine
1. an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work: a sewing machine.
2. a mechanical apparatus or contrivance; mechanism.
3. Mechanics.
a. a device that transmits or modifies force or motion.
b. Also called simple machine. any of six or more elementary mechanisms, as the lever, wheel and axle, pulley, screw, wedge, and inclined plane.
c. Also called complex machine. a combination of simple machines[/quote]
By all of those lamps and lasers are not machines.[/quote]

Lamps and lasers don't consist of interrelated parts with seperate functions, and they're not used in the performance of some kind of work?

They don't transmit or modify any sort of motion?
The photons emitted just sit there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine
The scientific definition of a machine is any device that transmits or modifies energy.

From what I learned in physics I don't think the scientific definition of machine is "any device that transmits or modifies energy". Its any device that transmits or modifies force*.

Perhaps you learned wrong.

However if you think about it they do transmit energy. You sit on a couch, it transmits the force of you body moving to the floor and stops your motion.

So do lamps.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thinyser, don't over analyse the suffix mechanics
This is Rifts, not real life, sometimes you have to suspend logic
Just check the psi-power description. Telemech (and all its flavors) can effect computers and electronics.

And may I highly reccomend NOT getting into a symantic argument with Killer Cyborg? 1) on this one he's right. And 2) he's... well... KC, check that description about punching oncoming waves. The metaphor is pretty accurate.

Thats why I don't play it as telemechanics but rather as teletechnology

It does work on non mechainical technology. I fully understand this and therefore think that the title of the power does not fully fit the descibed abilties. Machines require the reduction or alteration of force. Force being kenetic (ie mechanical) energy.

A lightbulb is not a machine but telemchanics will still tell the user what a lightbulb's components are and what they do. Teletechnology is a better term IMO.

Language is arguably a technology.

[Thinyser]

Lamps and lasers don't consist of interrelated parts with seperate functions, and they're not used in the performance of some kind of work?

No the dont do mechanical work as defined by science.

They don't transmit or modify any sort of motion?
The photons emitted just sit there?

For all intenets an purposes they do not no. Yes they project photons but theses do not perform mechanical work.

In physics, mechanical work is the amount of energy transferred by a force. Like energy, it is a scalar quantity, with SI units of joules. Heat conduction is not considered to be a form of work, since there is no macroscopically measurable force, only microscopic forces occurring in atomic collisions. In the 1830s, the French mathematician Gaspard-Gustave Coriolis coined the term work for the product of force and distance.

So since photons interact on the atomic level and not on a macromeasurable scale they despite the ability to illuminate or burn things do not do mechanical work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine
The scientific definition of a machine is any device that transmits or modifies energy.

From what I learned in physics I don't think the scientific definition of machine is "any device that transmits or modifies energy". Its any device that transmits or modifies force*.

Perhaps you learned wrong.

Perhaps but the definition of mechanical work supports these things NOT being machines.

However if you think about it they do transmit energy. You sit on a couch, it transmits the force of you body moving to the floor and stops your motion.

So do lamps.

Yes they do but lamps dont do mechanical work so they are not machines they are devices... and I dont consider a couch as a machine as it would be at most a simple machine and it doesn't meet the requrement of lowering the force required to accomplish some form of mechanical work so it doesn't qualify to be even a simple machine.

[Killer Cyborg]

Lamps and lasers don't consist of interrelated parts with seperate functions, and they're not used in the performance of some kind of work?

No the dont do mechanical work as defined by science.

They don't transmit or modify any sort of motion?
The photons emitted just sit there?

For all intenets an purposes they do not no. Yes they project photons but theses do not perform mechanical work.

In physics, mechanical work is the amount of energy transferred by a force. Like energy, it is a scalar quantity, with SI units of joules. Heat conduction is not considered to be a form of work, since there is no macroscopically measurable force, only microscopic forces occurring in atomic collisions. In the 1830s, the French mathematician Gaspard-Gustave Coriolis coined the term work for the product of force and distance.

So since photons interact on the atomic level and not on a macromeasurable scale they despite the ability to illuminate or burn things do not do mechanical work.

Touche.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine
The scientific definition of a machine is any device that transmits or modifies energy.

From what I learned in physics I don't think the scientific definition of machine is "any device that transmits or modifies energy". Its any device that transmits or modifies force*.

Perhaps you learned wrong.

Perhaps but the definition of mechanical work supports these things NOT being machines.[/quote]

But the above definition of "Machine" does.

However if you think about it they do transmit energy. You sit on a couch, it transmits the force of you body moving to the floor and stops your motion.

So do lamps.

Yes they do but lamps dont do mechanical work so they are not machines they are devices...[/quote]

You've obviously never beaten somebody with a lamp.
They're quite capable of mechanical work.

and I dont consider a couch as a machine as it would be at most a simple machine and it doesn't meet the requrement of lowering the force required to accomplish some form of mechanical work so it doesn't qualify to be even a simple machine.

I tend to agree with that.
On the other hand, couches have springs; are springs simple machines?

[Thinyser]

Lamps and lasers don't consist of interrelated parts with seperate functions, and they're not used in the performance of some kind of work?

No the dont do mechanical work as defined by science.

They don't transmit or modify any sort of motion?
The photons emitted just sit there?

For all intenets an purposes they do not no. Yes they project photons but theses do not perform mechanical work.

In physics, mechanical work is the amount of energy transferred by a force. Like energy, it is a scalar quantity, with SI units of joules. Heat conduction is not considered to be a form of work, since there is no macroscopically measurable force, only microscopic forces occurring in atomic collisions. In the 1830s, the French mathematician Gaspard-Gustave Coriolis coined the term work for the product of force and distance.

So since photons interact on the atomic level and not on a macromeasurable scale they despite the ability to illuminate or burn things do not do mechanical work.

Touche.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine
The scientific definition of a machine is any device that transmits or modifies energy.

From what I learned in physics I don't think the scientific definition of machine is "any device that transmits or modifies energy". Its any device that transmits or modifies force*.

Perhaps you learned wrong.

Perhaps but the definition of mechanical work supports these things NOT being machines.

But the above definition of "Machine" does.

What I've learned and what I know of mechanical work disagrees with such a broad definition of machine.

However if you think about it they do transmit energy. You sit on a couch, it transmits the force of you body moving to the floor and stops your motion.

So do lamps.

Yes they do but lamps dont do mechanical work so they are not machines they are devices...

You've obviously never beaten somebody with a lamp.
They're quite capable of mechanical work.

Har har... so is a stick... when used as a lever its a machine, when burned for light and heat it is not.

and I dont consider a couch as a machine as it would be at most a simple machine and it doesn't meet the requrement of lowering the force required to accomplish some form of mechanical work so it doesn't qualify to be even a simple machine.

I tend to agree with that.
On the other hand, couches have springs; are springs simple machines?

Possibly, though IMO it would have to be used as a screw (inclined plane wrapped around a cylinder) to be considered one.

[Killer Cyborg]

What I've learned and what I know of mechanical work disagrees with such a broad definition of machine.

What do you think the writers intended when they wrote the power, for it to work on lamps, or not?

You've obviously never beaten somebody with a lamp.
They're quite capable of mechanical work.

Har har... so is a stick... when used as a lever its a machine, when burned for light and heat it is not.

Agreed.

[Thinyser]

What I've learned and what I know of mechanical work disagrees with such a broad definition of machine.

What do you think the writers intended when they wrote the power, for it to work on lamps, or not?

Lamps, and all sorts of electronics yes. I've stated multiple times in this thread that I think that the name Telemachanics is not apt for the power. The power is fine as is, but the name doesn't fit the power. Thats the only issue I take with the power.

[Killer Cyborg]

What I've learned and what I know of mechanical work disagrees with such a broad definition of machine.

What do you think the writers intended when they wrote the power, for it to work on lamps, or not?

Lamps, and all sorts of electronics yes. I've stated multiple times in this thread that I think that the name Telemachanics is not apt for the power. The power is fine as is, but the name doesn't fit the power. Thats the only issue I take with the power.

Eh.
Fair enough.
People commonly think of lamps as machines, even when they're not used to hit people, so I don't really agree with you.
But it's not like I'm never nit-picky about things...

[Thinyser]

What I've learned and what I know of mechanical work disagrees with such a broad definition of machine.

What do you think the writers intended when they wrote the power, for it to work on lamps, or not?

Lamps, and all sorts of electronics yes. I've stated multiple times in this thread that I think that the name Telemachanics is not apt for the power. The power is fine as is, but the name doesn't fit the power. Thats the only issue I take with the power.

Eh.
Fair enough.
People commonly think of lamps as machines, even when they're not used to hit people, so I don't really agree with you.

Really? You think the majority of people think of lamps as machines?
I really don't see the average person thinking that at all... lasers maybe, but lamps not so much.

I think most people think of machines as things that involve motion and/or moving parts (electric motors, gears, wheels, etc) to perform their function.

I really don't see people thinking of say, an oven, as a machine. Yes it has moving parts (the door the dials etc) but these are not the function of the device. If you think about it a lamp is very akin to an oven... one just contains the EM radiation inside to cook with and one shines it outward for illuminaiton. The switch is a moving part but not the function of the device its function is to project light. The door and dials on an oven are not necessary for the oven to cook, all that is needed is the heat the oven produces.

Things like washing machines (well duh its in the name) and clothes dryers (very similar to an oven but requres mechanical actions of blown air and tumbling to perform its job) are what people think of as machines.

But it's not like I'm never nit-picky about things...

[Killer Cyborg]

People commonly think of lamps as machines, even when they're not used to hit people, so I don't really agree with you.

Really? You think the majority of people think of lamps as machines?
I really don't see the average person thinking that at all... lasers maybe, but lamps not so much.

I think most people think of machines as things that involve motion and/or moving parts (electric motors, gears, wheels, etc) to perform their function.

I think most people don't differentiate between machines and electronic devices.

[Thinyser]

People commonly think of lamps as machines, even when they're not used to hit people, so I don't really agree with you.

Really? You think the majority of people think of lamps as machines?
I really don't see the average person thinking that at all... lasers maybe, but lamps not so much.

I think most people think of machines as things that involve motion and/or moving parts (electric motors, gears, wheels, etc) to perform their function.

I think most people don't differentiate between machines and electronic devices.

So you honestly believe that most people would look at a TV or a lamp or an oven and if asked to classify it as either a "machine" or a "electronic device" would, as their first reaction, think "machine"?