TSAW 3.0 ... The REF and Third Robotech War.

[batlchip]

*Zara looks up*Some fool shot my hovercar and before I could skin him.He ran off.*RDF guy laughs* Well if you didn't drive like Khyron on a FoL high.People wouldn't think they have to defend themselfs.*Zara looks at the light bird* At least I don't look like the enforcer.

ooc:I think Zara looks funny w/o eyebrows eh Taalismn

[taalismn]

*Zara looks up*Some fool shot my hovercar and before I could skin him.He ran off.*RDF guy laughs* Well if you didn't drive like Khyron on a FoL high.People wouldn't think they have to defend themselfs.*Zara looks at the light bird* At least I don't look like the enforcer.

ooc:I think Zara looks funny w/o eyebrows eh Taalismn

OCC: Actually I think it was ZARA who shot the hovercar, but this works just fine....

[taalismn]

*Zara pulls out a make-up marker and fixes one of her eyebrows*

Must look good when going into battle, Lieutenant, or are you trying to find a date?

"Give Humanity's success with turning members of the opposition, I can safely say 'looks' are part of your people's integral combat strategy....Something the Regis seems to have picked up on...NOt that I'm boasting, but I have yet to see a fat invid...or an acne-stricken one...."

[taalismn]

*Zara shakes her head and sighs*And I thought we where bad I always thought the REF would do something about the DTTS-12 after seeing lots of them get blown to bits.Not that we meltrans were any better.Case in point the stupid reentry pod.It was like your LSTs from your WWII.Talk about being a sitting duck.The Garfish was a little better,at least it had some defensive weapons.*Zara pulls out a make-up marker and fixes one of her eyebrows*

"That's why I'm rather gladdened to see the Horizont V coming out....it may still retain the underhull attachment point for the Alpha-Beta, and is smaller than the the DTTS-12s, but the add-on boosters and armor are heartening.....those same mounting points could be used for adding on missile launchers and extra avionics...something human mecha designers are apparently well familiar with, if the recent Super Shadowfighter mods are any indication...."

[The Artist Formerly]

Old Tech Seregant, now wearing a fake nose and glasses. :

The Horrizant was extreamly well armed. An Alpha, a Beta, three four man legs of Cyclones. Plus if you wanted to put a mid sized fortress to rest, load a couple of bunkers with debris or space rocks or Zent food and come in on a hard angle towards the planet and then deploy the bunker near the edge of atmosphere.

Sheesh. Kids.

[batlchip]

*Zara and the RDF guy look at each other and then look at the LT Col.They then start to laugh.*That was funny sir,you thinking we'r basic troops.Zara and I have been around since before the first war.*Zara suddely stops laughing*I was born just before the first war and have been what you micronians call special forces for a long time now.I just don't like to brag about it.Anyway,my unit now has a HSTC-27 asigned to us and we had to modify it so we could use it for spec ops.

ooc:Just telling the truth Fury.Both of these characters are old vets.I mean no offense.

[The Artist Formerly]

Old Tech Seregant, now wearing a fake nose and glasses. :

The Horrizant was extreamly well armed. An Alpha, a Beta, three four man legs of Cyclones. Plus if you wanted to put a mid sized fortress to rest, load a couple of bunkers with debris or space rocks or Zent food and come in on a hard angle towards the planet and then deploy the bunker near the edge of atmosphere.

Sheesh. Kids.

Another favorite tactic, when they were available, was to have each of the bunkers carrying a Raidar-X, in space or after in the atmosphere, you open the bunker doors and have 2 gun inplacements. Of course you had to make sure everything was tied down or you'd lose a lot of gear and when in space before making reentry you better close the doors or you get flash BBQed. You basic troops really need to learn how to better make use of resources available.

Hell of a variation on the old king of the hill drill there Fury. The defender declares that this is my house and then blasts everything that tries to approch. The attackers have to dislodge the defender. Of course the Invid were never very good at that game...

[taalismn]

"Such improvizations were okay as long as you figured them out right the first time, and got word out of how to do it right before all the other guys tried something like it and got killed by everything that could go WRONG with it....
But at least you had the equipment to try such experimentation with....WE, and by that I mean the Invid, were notoriously logistics-light, so when it came to improvization, all a field trooper had was its own mecha-bodyarmor and whatever could be gripped in a claw...IMprovements tended to come from the top in our organization, rather than the bottom, as with yours, with a few notable exceptions where exceptionally creative Stage Fours made modifications and improvements, and got them implemented by the Regis....Of course, once the Stage Fives began showing up in numbers, there was rather more input from below, but that was still considered to be the directives of royalty, rather than 'grunt' improvization."

[batlchip]

*Zara smirks at the light bird*I mean no disrespect Col. but you failed to listen to me.When I stated that I'd been in special forces since the start of the first war.I also said that my unit but extra missile pods on their DTTS-27.It gave us some extra firepower w/o causing drag.*RDF guy leans back and puts out cigar*I was a spec ops pilot in the american air force before the first war.So,I can safely say that When your in a middle of a huge furball and it's 5 to 1.You learn pretty quick how to manage your resources.

[Aramanthus]

:::Continues to take notes on the topic that is going between various speakers. Looking at each and every speaker and making sure that their comments are recorded for history's sake.:::

[taalismn]

And, with all due respect Col. Fury, but opening the bunker doors in an atmosphere!? that's some pretty big air-brakes, not to metion the extreme stress on the doors & air-frame, you'd really want a S**t-hot pilot at the helm!

"(mumble) Remind me to tell you, after getting good and drunk....another thing I'm almost grateful for in this human physiology....about airbraking in an engine-less Mollusc by openning both hull-halves in atmo...and the fine art of skydiving from low earth orbit in Enforcer armor with an energy shield....."

[batlchip]

*Zara shakes her head*As I said sir you weren't listening or paying attenion either.My rank is Lt.Commander sir not Lieutenant.
*RDF guy shruggs his shoulders*I was only pointing out that I understand how to manage my resources.I never said anything about adding extra weapons on a Horizant.


ooc:It would be hard to tell Zara that her managing skills are lacking.She is a Meltran after all

[Aramanthus]

:::Looks at where the hostility is radiating from the carious beings in the classroom. He shakes his head and mutters quietly::: "Someday soon these races will have to work together if any of them are to survive what is coming. I hope they find it in their souls to forget and forgive what has become history. For if they do not, there won't be enough of them left to rebuild any of their societies."

[batlchip]

*RDF guy laughs*That's the problem with zentran/meltran personel.They tend to lack social skills.Anyway I'm canna wondering what the Lt thinks of the Garfish.


ooc:Don't tell Zara your half meltran Fury she might want to marry you

[Aramanthus]

:::Looks at the various speakers and then looks back at his notes he is still recording.:::

[glitterboy2098]

(OOC: it seems this class is a bit more freeform than Taffy's. i guess that's what happens when some of the students outrank the instructor... )


The Garfish had to be one of my favorite starships in the REF. compact, but well armed and well armored. while it lacked the luxuries of a Ikazuchi, the fact that it was more survivable made it a great base of operations. those three main beam cannons made decent anti-starship firepower, and the anti-shipping missiles could be equipped with warheads that made them reasonably more effective against mecha. in fact, one vessel i had a chance to visit for a brief period on the way to a new posting had improvised a unique method to make it more effective, simple scratchbuilt pallets of short or medium range missiles that could be fired out of the launch tubes. the pallets themselves had no drive, but volleyed off half a dozen to a dozen of the smaller missiles, which independently sought out enemy mecha. not something you wanted to use when friendlies were in the area, but useful for wearing down the first wave of an invid assualt to buy time to launch your fighters.

the mecha compliment was also very good. unlike the rapid launch bay/carrier deck paradigm of the Ikazuchi or the SDF-3, the Garfish used a modular flightdeck system to make the most of the restricted space. four large compartments extended off a common launchbay. these compartments were large enough to hold even the bulk of the MAC-II, though rarely were they used for such. within each compartment several adjustable floors could be mounted, each capable of holding several mecha. automated cranes built into the ceiling of each compartment and a set of mecha sized elevators allowed retrieval from any of these multi level compartments. typically the layout would be to assign 3 of the compartments to destroids, each capable of holding 2 destroids or battloid mode mecha. the last compartment would carry a MAC-II or MAC-III. needless to say, the book layout was rare. very few MAC's were hauled around individually,and most that showed up were deployed off grounded Ikazuchi's. so that fourth compartment was usually rigged up to add another 2 mecha to the roster. in a pinch, you could fit fifty percent more mecha than was officially possible, at the risk of making deployment more difficult. deployment was already hard enough. in order to fit all this in, mecha had to be placed in close rows, the MAC's had to be stuck on trolleys in a crouch, and veritechs had to be stored in fighter mode (which at least allowed you to get away with a two tier bay to allow 4 Alpha's or a pair of legios per bay, which made 'carrier' config garfish rather daunting in combat). just getting any mecha ready to launch was an exercise in pure coordination.

of course, that was just the internal mecha bay. the garfish also carries a quick launch pod ventrally, holding 9 alpha's in three two level pods. each pod holds 3 alpha's, two on the top level, one on the bottom, as well as mounting a set of auxiliary thrusters. in theory, you could fit up to 12 alpha's, but the bottom bays would be very cramped, and the fighters would have to be carried in storage mode, with wings and tails retracted.

with the company of Cyclone equipped troops typically carried, the garfish could deploy a combined arms battalion, going by the book layout. specialist configs varied anywhere from an artillery platoon of MAC's, plus veritech bodyguards, to a wing of 25 Alpha's. one rare ultra specialized model even replaced the quicklaunch bay with a massive hanger for a ground mobile unit, the 'land battleship' command tank. the internal bay of this model was used to augment the GMU's own carrying capacity. these hangers could be rigged up to carry normal mecha too, twice as many as the garfish can carry internally.

unfortunately the Garfish generally lacked an internal fold drive, which was its biggest flaw. there was a fold module that could be mounted externally, but those were rare and easy to damage. typically Garfish served as destroyer type escorts for the ikazuchi, or as a light landing ships for ground units. once on planet they made excellent mobile bases of operations.

(OOC: the bay layout is pure conjecture on my part, but it explains how you can fit so many mecha into a 350x114x251 ft ship. fitting the MAC-II into the bays was a headache. the official palladium garfish is a fraking TARDIS...
and i dropped the quick launch bay compliment to just Alpha's, based on the animation in new gen, you see 12 alpha's launch from the bays, not legios. and you'd never fit 9 Legios in there anyway. the preproduction art backs me up)

[Aramanthus]

:::Taking notes as the primary speaker continues. Raises hand::: Lt! About the Garfish! Why were there no expanded versions built with a 3rd generation fold system? I realise they were rather large initially.

[taalismn]

:::Looks at where the hostility is radiating from the carious beings in the classroom. He shakes his head and mutters quietly::: "Someday soon these races will have to work together if any of them are to survive what is coming. I hope they find it in their souls to forget and forgive what has become history. For if they do not, there won't be enough of them left to rebuild any of their societies."

(Stage Five Invid raises an eyebrow and shares a look with the Enforcer next to him...starts making a few more notes in his pesonal organizer....if they're throwing in with this lot, then they're going to make DAMN sure they do everything they can to insure this lot comes out as the winners....)

"Considering the versatility of the Garfish; I believe their modularity makes them quite well-suited for the sort of upgrades you mention.....I wouldn't be surprised if they don't ALREADY have the Generation Three Fold Drives you speak of...."

[taalismn]

"We've seen the effectiveness of the Garfish's LAUNCH bays, but just how effective were they as LANDING bays? Considering fighters and mecha were packed in almost as tight as Liguaa on a Mollusk, backing into those bays must have been a major piloting ordeal without clipping the forward gun turret...those bays don't seem large enough for an Alpha-Legios combination to be able to turn around after a nose-first entry..."

[glitterboy2098]

Lt! About the Garfish! Why were there no expanded versions built with a 3rd generation fold system? I realise they were rather large initially.

even the new 3rd gen fold drives are bulky, power intensive things. it's possible to fit a fold drive onto a garfish, but you'd have to sacrifice a lot of the troops space to fit the larger power plant you'd need.

the most recent Garfish models i've heard about have been fitted with integral FTL drives, reverse engineered of robotech masters tech. about a tenth as fast as a fold, but requiring much less power to run, and much more compact.

i do remember though that a plan for a 'stretched' Garfish had been drawn up once, which would have had a taller main hull, and more than 100 extra feet added to the hull in front and behind the internal mecha bay. it would have included a compact fold drive and power plants capable of achieving a fold. the plan got voted down.

"We've seen the effectiveness of the Garfish's LAUNCH bays, but just how effective were they as LANDING bays? Considering fighters and mecha were packed in almost as tight as Liguaa on a Mollusk, backing into those bays must have been a major piloting ordeal without clipping the forward gun turret...those bays don't seem large enough for an Alpha-Legios combination to be able to turn around after a nose-first entry..."

landing in the launch bays was a nightmare. on the ground, you needed a crane or lift to get the plane inside. in the air or in space, you matched speed, and then decelled slowly to let the garfish over take you. once inside the bay, you dropped down to the deck fast to engage the wheel locks, and cut your engines. if you were severely damaged, you just got inside and cut the engines, which would cause you to crash to the deck, but you'd be less likely to hit something vital. please note, there is no real chance to abort a landing. the best you could do is hit the burners and try to peel off without crashing into something.

it was easier in space. you could cut the drives and coast, and use thrusters to do the fine maneuvering. in an atmosphere you had to ride the VTOL gear while bucking a slipstream off the ship. and global war pilots thought carrier landings on a wet navy ships were bad.

the turret can be retracted, so it isn't as bad as it looks, but you still had to do some fancy last minute maneuvering to get into position for the top bay.


(OOC: i was tempted to impliment a Trapeze like the ones used on the USS Macon (ZRS-5), but i couldn't see how you could do it without changing the alpha's. the above is based on scenes seen in the Gundam shows, where fighters would be recovered by the Whitebase class ships. the space version is best seen in the new BSG. )

[batlchip]

*Zara nods her head*Yeah landing on a Garfish was hard but try doing it with a vindicator now that was rough.I heard rumors that some Garfish's were modified with shadow tech for classified missions.Is this true GB?

ooc:I had a teammate who was a RDF field scientist she made 2 hard points for the Garfish so it could have 2 horizont storage pods attached to it.It couldn't land with the pods on though.

[glitterboy2098]

quite a few Garfish were fitted with shadow devices, most were used by Jupiter Division at the end of the war.

(and it's LT. Isle, commander. not 'GB')

[batlchip]

Sorry LT.Isle sir.

ooc:A little interaction is fun as long as we don't forget that it's your class.

[Aramanthus]

:::Continue to take notes.::: "Thank you LT. and Lt Col for fielding my question!" :::Jots down some more notes.:::

[taalismn]

I'm not totally sure but I believe there may at 1 time have been as many as 20 of these modified 'Fish in the fleet but they were all reserved for spec-ops and most of you probably never even knew they existed..

"Ah, further proof the stealth worked!"

[Aramanthus]

:::Smiles and hums an accompaniment to the bespectacled man, while taking notes.:::

[ShadowLogan]

GB:

OOC: i was tempted to impliment a Trapeze like the ones used on the USS Macon (ZRS-5), but i couldn't see how you could do it without changing the alpha's. the above is based on scenes seen in the Gundam shows, where fighters would be recovered by the Whitebase class ships. the space version is best seen in the new BSG. )

OCC\\\
Something like StarCom's Magnalock system for the trapeze connection? It really wouldn't require any special modifications to the incoming craft if it was made of metal that the electromagnets could latch onto.

I realize your using the RPG as the sole source, but with the slight change you made to the Garfish's Fighter Wing based on the animation I have to ask why you did not also add in the Beta's animated arm cannons?

///OCC

[glitterboy2098]

Something like StarCom's Magnalock system for the trapeze connection? It really wouldn't require any special modifications to the incoming craft if it was made of metal that the electromagnets could latch onto.

thing is, i doubt the Alpha's are made using much magnetic metal in the armor or frame. high strength ceramics and non-magnetic metals like aluminum or titanium is the way aircraft have been going for the last 40 years, and i can't imagine that robotechnology would change that.

I realize your using the RPG as the sole source, but with the slight change you made to the Garfish's Fighter Wing based on the animation I have to ask why you did not also add in the Beta's animated arm cannons?

///OCC

the problem is that the garfish has a defined size, which is smaller than the volume of the official compliment. like i said, a TARDIS. changing the amount to bring it closer to a plauasable level was required. i wanted to add arm cannons to the beta, but there is nothing to show that Scott's beta was not a one off, either a prototype or customization. the garfish is more or less consistent across the show. (to be honest, the MOSPEADA garfish looks to carry only the alpha's, with the hull housing only the crew and a small cargobay, if the Old Soldiers episode is any indication.

[taalismn]

the problem is that the garfish has a defined size, which is smaller than the volume of the official compliment. like i said, a TARDIS. changing the amount to bring it closer to a plauasable level was required. i wanted to add arm cannons to the beta, but there is nothing to show that Scott's beta was not a one off, either a prototype or customization. the garfish is more or less consistent across the show. (to be honest, the MOSPEADA garfish looks to carry only the alpha's, with the hull housing only the crew and a small cargobay, if the Old Soldiers episode is any indication.

Partof the bleed-over from the original 'Mars and not Farther Out' storyline of MOSPEADA....the Garfish likely were not designed for extended field operations but as dropships, and it was presumed that the disembarked craft would have the leisure of docking again on the surface or under generally peaceful conditions....

The killer is how the poor saps in the Ikazuchi Battloid bays got loaded up...THAT musta been a three ring circus....

[Aramanthus]

::::Continues to take notes and making notes on several schematics of various veritechs which were just pulled out of another pocket.:::

[batlchip]

*Zara looks up*I always thought the Ikazuchi was just a different take on the Invy clam ship.

[taalismn]

"Indeed----Aside from a few armed HIve ships, the Regis just didn't think armed starships suited the Invid...in fact, it just gave the enemy something big to shoot at...She was right.....In fact, Mollusck Carriers were 'throwaways'...once they'd delivered their mecha to orbit, they were considered expendable, and would often move deliberately in threatening patterns to draw enemy fire....It was MUCH harder to take out all of a swarm of fast-moving mecha with beam cannon, and the Ikazuchis' and Garfishs' missile launchers just weren't set up for the mass-volume 'shotgun' spreads of missiles as the Alpha-Legioss could put out....
Oh, the Regent was fond of armed Clamships and his Scorpion Carriers, but that made things easier for the REF and Sentinels...Once they figured out the Invid command-caste were aping Zentraedi doctrine and commanding from the biggest warship in the formation, that ship became a fire-magnet...and all the big guns in the Invid arsenal just couldn't save them. "

[Aramanthus]

:::Continues taking notes on the speakers banter.:::

[taalismn]

"Actually in the Battle for Reflex Point they started firing while our Clams were still in orbital ascent....so SOMEBODY had learned....but too few main guns, too many transports, and you were firing at the extreme limit of your range...maybe that was deliberate, though....the REF might have been leery of accidentally bombrading Earth and taking out some friendly ground troops or Resistance allies with a Reflex of Synchro Cannon blast that just wouldn't stop at the limits of Earth's atmosphere...You HAD been hit by the Zentraedi before, and that might have shown..."

[batlchip]

*Zara*I have 'ta agree with Fury.The micronian commanders should've open fire as soon as the Invy clam ships where in range.By waiting for the enemy troops to launch.The micronian commanders showed that they where unfit for command

[ShadowLogan]

GB:
OCC:

thing is, i doubt the Alpha's are made using much magnetic metal in the armor or frame. high strength ceramics and non-magnetic metals like aluminum or titanium is the way aircraft have been going for the last 40 years, and i can't imagine that robotechnology would change that.

Well the electromagnet could be in the Alpha. The ability to create a magnetic field might not be such a bad idea for a space fighter during re-entry. The re-entry protection system would not need to be as durable and extensive if there was a mag. field helping to keep the super hot plasma away.

IINM, something like this has been proposed before for re-entry in a concept vehicle.

OCC///

[taalismn]

*Zara*I have 'ta agree with Fury.The micronian commanders should've open fire as soon as the Invy clam ships where in range.By waiting for the enemy troops to launch.The micronian commanders showed that they where unfit for command

"Okay, okay...I thought we were outsmarting you by deploying early....but seems you were off your game.....Just as well, the way things turned out that the Regis conceded Humanity was suicidally insane and/or running with a bad crowd...But if we'd been using the old Scorpions, the REF fleet WOULD have gotten them while those sows were still trying to break atmosphere..."

[Aramanthus]

:::Continues to take extensive notes on the subjects spoken about. Raises hand.::: "Lt. why didn't they load heavier firepower aboard a variant of the Ikazuchi?"

[Aramanthus]

"Actually I always considered it under armed, especially versus fighter and mecha. My friends in the "Wild Cards" always said that they felt better getting off their ship, because it was always getting hit hard by invid mecha. I always told them I'd ask why it wasn't more like the escort ships of the late WW2 with the tremendously augmented anti-aircraft firepower."

[Aramanthus]

:::Taking notes from the LT. Col. reply.:::


OOC::: Actually those ships in WW2 also used both 20 mm and 40mm Pompoms. And there were usually more of those mounts than the .50 calibur machine guns. Most of the ships I glanced at had only 12 mounts of the 50. I know the Iowas had a lot more 20mm and 40mm anti-aircraft weapons than the 50s.

Here is a Fletcher DD for example.

Armament 5 single 5-inch/38 Mk12 DP guns
4 single 1.1-inch/75 Mk1 AA guns (early ships)
10 40mm/56 AA guns (retrofitted on some)
7 single 20mm/70 Mk2 AA guns
10 21-inch torpedo tubes
6 DCP, 2 DCT

CA- 134 Des Moines Class Cruiser

Armament 3 triple 8-inch/55RF Mk16 guns
6 twin 5-inch/38 Mk12 guns
12 twin 3-inch/50 Mk27/33 guns
6 twin 20mm/70 Mk2/3/4 AA guns (removed 1947)

[glitterboy2098]

part of the problem is that the Robotech fleet was orginally designed by wet navy types drawing on global war era combat paradigms.

those wet navy ships were rarely equipped with much defensive armament, usually only a few CIWS turrets and some SAM's. defense against fighters and small craft was relegated to helicopters and aircraft, which constantly patrolled. the CIWS was usually sufficent to stop any assualt they could expect. the big threat was BVR missiles from aircraft or other ships, and those tended to be fired in small volleys, easily destroyed by the Phalanx systems of the day. and even then, that was last ditch, as the point was ot never be found in the first place.


unfortunately, that doesn't work in space. there is no horizon to hide behind, and stealth is pretty much impossible without a shadow device. at best, you could hide in a debris field like the 'blitzkrieg' attack the RDF used at Saturn, but thats not an easy prospect.
weaponry tends to be direct fire, not missile, as direct fire tends to have better range. missile drives run out of gas eventually, making them ballistic coasters, but in theory a laser or cannon shell could be used to hit targets halfway across a star system. light speed lag usually made that pointless though.

and space is vast. you just can't imagine how mind bogglingy huge it is. i mean, you might think it's a long way down to the pharmacy, but thats nothing compared to space. and the early planners just tended to forget that. you cant have an effective CAP up and expect it to be able to find and intercept all threats. you could sortie the entire compliment of the Ikazuchi to make a shell to stop enemy units from reaching effective weapons range, and still have holes in the coverage large enough to drive dolza's base through.

but no one expected the zentreadi and masters to use so many fighters and mecha in an assault, and the Invid threw everyone for a loop. so the capital ships were designed with minimal point defense, just like those old wet navies, and the mecha just couldn't do enough.

i imagine that things will change in the near future, once you get licked four times by the same thing, eventually someone notices.

[Aramanthus]

OOC: But and all around defense does actually work in those circumstances. And As the LT. Col. mentioned about the Destroids and the zentraedi mecha on board could be used as extra anti-mecha. I was just being a little ornery.

[taalismn]

"True...for an interconnected society, we were pretty liberal with swarm tactics...of course, we also hadn't developed effective force-multipliers like missiles yet, and the few spaceborne Inorganics we experimented with were expensive on Protoculture usage, and rather 'iffy' in their decision-making capacity...So in effect, our mecha WERE acting as missiles...very smart missiles all told, and ones that tried to come back after a mission, but missiles all the same, launched in volley, with the expectation a lot wouldn't be coming back..."
(a soft beeping comes from the Stage Five's pocket...he reaches in and pulls out a communicator...reads the mini-screen, then turns aside to confer with the Enforcer, then stands up, straightening up his notes and recording equipment)
"My apologies...seems the higher-ups want me for something again...Either somebody's found a Scorpion they want advice on salvaging, or some bunch of bright boys and girls have managed to re-assemble an Overlord mecha from the half-dozen wrecks they found after Reflex POint, and they want a green-blood to test-fly it for them....Either way, looks like I'm out for the rest of the week...(thumbs at the Enforcer still sitting)...try not to shoot her? She'll be taking notes quietly, and I'd sure as Fantoma's dark core not want to come back to find the files on the rest of this engaging class squekked by free weapons play.."

(as he passes by the guy in the back, he spares him a passing glance.. and a silent *Don't try to follow me*...then leaves the room)

[Aramanthus]

OOC: I know. I didn't have Jane's Guide to WW2 ships at work and I couldn't remember all of the different weapons on the WW2 ships. And the global security is an okay site for that WW2 ships. I was just giving those as examples. And I know and love the Iowas, since they are my favorite ships of all time. (Since I'm from Iowa I have a particular ship I'm waiting to become a museum to go visit it!

[Jefffar]

OOC - it wasn't until the war was begun that it was realized that the primary threat to the surface fleet wasn't the other surface fleet - it was air attack. As a result many ships that were inservice at the start of the war were quickly modified with as many light to medium (.50 to 40 mm) anti-aircraft weapons as could fit - sometimes even removing some of the secondary surface to surface armaments to do so.

Later designs shipped large, heavy duty anti-aircraft weapons and scores of lighter peices.

Aside from the Russians, most modern navies rely on a medium to long range SAM system and a handful of shorter range air defence systems.

[Aramanthus]

OOC::: I know this. I love Naval History, Especially WW2!

[Comrade Corsarius]

I'm forming a search party to go find the Lt, who wants to join me? Our first stop will be the emergency room, I think he may have gone there to get a cream for the rash Col. Taffy mentioned in his lecture.

I've got my Blitz-command bike parked out front. I'll drive, you can take shotgun.

400kph at 2 feet above the ground in air-conditioned comfort. The REF can't offer any finer than that!

[Ice Dragon]

According to the commanders of the three REF assault fleets - most died during the assault and the officiers who survived did follow their orders or improved the battle plan on the fly to survive and full fill their mission.

I was flying wing commander of the 35th Naval fighter wing "Gottfried von Banfield" during the first reclamation attempt commanded by Col Wolfe. We hoped to support and inform the SC high command about the Invid threat. We came to late, the Invid have alread beaten the SC and we jump into hostile territory. We were able to land and form beach heads, like the famous "Point K". Our mission was to dug in and wait for reenforcement. My carrier, the "Szent Istvan", was rammed by a Clam ship and didn' t have a chance - we lost RAdm Horty and the rest of the crew. Then swarms of Invid Scout hit us. Out of 36 Legios and 6 Horizont Drop Shuttle, carrying the 351th Marine Batallion, I lead 3 Alphas and one battle scared Horizont down to Earth. We landed in the Alaska territory and started our long Guerilla warfare to liberate Earth.

In the aftermath of a battle it's easy to critize the commanders.

[Aramanthus]

:::The non-descript man coninues recording the words of the valiant warriors in his presence. His face gets pinched in thoughts of friends lost in that war.:::



OOC I have a question for everyone and anyone. I'm not sure if anyone cares either. But What happened to Minmei? What became of her? And clues? I know my friends and I use to warm up our dice before the game to "Let's kill Minmei and Lynn Minmei." But I've looked and can not find any sort of reference to her after Macross.

[AdmTolval]

OOC I had heard that in the novels, she and the Zor clone had gone back in time to stop the whole protoculture thing but that they ended up being the parents to Zor himself. Sounds pretty weird though.