DocS wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:You don't have to be badass to be a legend.
So we do agree on that cyberknights are absolutely not badasses...
Wrong.
I was just pointing out that you don't HAVE to be a badass to be a legend, which does NOT equate to "No Cyberknight can be a badass".
How much of a badass you are depends on what you're up against.
A CK against a vagabond or five is pretty badass.
A CK against a dragon or five isn't.
Killer Cyborg wrote:+1d4x10 SDC
+1 to init.
+1 attack (which, you should remember, meant 50% more attacks than an average first level character)
Gymnastics
4 WPs to start
HTH: Martial Arts
Does that impress you?
No?
Yeah, I figured.
THIS is what I talk about when I complain that people have a skewed view of Rifts Earth, that people hold adventuring classes up as the standard, and they're simply NOT.
Pit an average main book CK against an average main book Vagabond, and see who wins.
First question... does it get to be the same Vagabond whom you previously argued could kill juicers?
Nope.
Because THAT vagabond had some decent gear, and maybe some experience, I forget. The main book Vagabond doesn't.
All I see is some bonuses.. but nothing that warrants the term 'Phenomenal'. 'Phenomenal' is skill choice? So any character class with the option to take HTH Martial arts, 4 WP's, and gymnastics are 'Phenomenal' in their combat abilities?
No.
But if they take all those skills, they can be.
Of course, for most classes they won't have many skills left over, unlike the CKs.
+1 attack? Not hard to get. Even dog packs get that.
Dog pack members are pretty badass too.
+1 init?
Yeah, that's not very phenomenal.
Still, every bit helps.
I can see why the description is so epic. If CS grunts got such bonuses, I wouldn't have been overwhelmed. There's nothing in that list that's really striking one way or another. Hasn't it clicked with you yet? You play your cyberknights exactly like you play your mages exactly like you play your vagabonds, and all seem equally effective at the same things.... doesn't that give you a sense that the classes in the RMB really aren't as different as they should be?
No.
But it does make me think that they're not as different as
you wish they were.
I think they were about where they SHOULD have been.
Phenomenal combat skills should be compared with the things a cyberknight would be *in combat* against. Since Cyberknights aren't walking around roughing up vagabonds, it's kind of silly to claim that their ability to do so is any statement of combat ability at all.
Really?
Where on earth did you get the idea that vagabonds are never thieves, murderers, bandits, assassins, or other types of troublemakers that the CKs are out to stop?
Against non mega damage foes, yes, cyberknights are epic, as are rogue scholars with wilks pistols.
You're catching on.
However, against the mega-damage enemies cyberknights are supposed to be fighting..... they're essentially city-rats with bad experience tables.
Roll up some supernatural predators from the main book.
Give a CK some decent basic gear, have him use it, and let me know how it turns out.
In my experience, they do pretty darn well. Better even than CS Grunts and Headhunters, pound for pound.
Killer Cyborg wrote:And compare it to the other melee weapons in the main book.
At first level, it's as good as a vibro-knife, which is the only MD weapon a number of classes start with, and more than some get.
At second level, it's as good as a vibro-sword.
After that, unless you're fighting a Mind Melter (who was always meant to be the REAL champion of the Psi-Sword) or somebody with a TW Flaming Sword, you're going to have the better weapon.
And after a while, you even beat the guy with the Flaming Sword, and you don't even have to pay the ISP to do it.
Yes, compare with the other melee weapons in the main book. The psi sword isn't even as good as the vibro-sword or claws...
Not at first level, no.
But they're not supposed to be.
When they level up, then they get more powerful.
As mentioned above.
[quotePlease, compare these 'phenomenal combat skills' with the class bonuses for the low-cost expendible dog pack mutant. Dog packs, expendible, second-raters...[/quote]
Dog Packs are expendable, but they're far from second-raters.
how do they compare with your cyberknight?
The Psi sword from RMB, bad main weapon, bad backup, bad tertiary weapon!
Already addressed, but I'll go over it again.
At first level, it's as good or better than a vibro-knife.
After that, it's
at least as good as a vibro-sword, which was the best technological melee weapon in the game.
Cyber armor, bad armor, bad backup armor, literally the worst armor published in the game.
Only if you are pretending that it's supposed to be used exclusively, instead of as a last-ditch hope of survival once your real armor has been breached.
For guys who have a page and a half talking about how badass they are
Yup.