an issue of scale

[glitterboy2098]

has anyone ever noticed that few scifi writers/creators have any true concept of the scale of things in their settings?

for example, lets look at a planetary invasion. in star wars, star trek, B5, and others, it's normal to conquer a planet of a few hundred million with a few thousand troops.

for comparison, that like conquering the United States and holding it with just the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Infantry_Division_%28United_States%29[/url]1st Infantry Division[/url].
something like 15000 to 1 in terms of population #'s to soldier #'s

in scifi, conquering a planet always seems to boil down to attacking the capitol city or cities and seizing the main goverment building(s). at which point "victory is won", and the planets armies seem to turn traitor and start working with the invader, however reluctantly. at worst, you see some small fairly ineffective resistance movements that do little more than annoy the new owners of the planet.

some scifi (like battletech), takes this to extremes, where at best a multi-million population world is defended by a few hundred tanks/robots and a few thousand infantry, with invading forces being smaller and still successful because the defending forces are scattered peicemeal.
and when you get a scifi work that actually addresses the issue properly, with several dozen millions of troops being shipped in to invade planets, deployed with multiple divisions to a major target, with full fighter, artillery, and orbital support, ect.....its almost always presented as something absurdly odd andwasteful, WW1 on a planetary scale.

and lets not get into planetary revolts, or resistance groups. if each of your soldiers is outnumbered thousands to one by the local populace, how hard would be be for the locals to surround each man with servants/'advisors' that are really assassins? or overrun the bases with militia troops? or forment a mass uprising? not very hard, really.

so you ask, what does thjis have to do with Phase world?

well, everything. phase world has some of the same scale issues as most scifi. look at the troop capacities of 3G's starships. you'd be lucky to bring the 1st infantry division to a planetary theft, and that would require several dozen ships the size of packmaster's. each division. sure the fighter compliment and anti-ship weapons can flatten anything on the ground pretty darn quickly and effectively, but typically you want somewhat intact population centers and industry, not rubble filled molten craters. if your going to pound the world flat to pave the way for your ground forces, you might as well just pull a BSG and obliterate the surface from orbit with nukes and orbital bombardment.

and we don't have stats for troopships able to carry the huge #'s of troops, tanks, robots, and weapons needed to take a world properly.

i sort of stumbled over this realization while reading over some battletech stuff a friend of mine posted on their forums that underscored the oddties of their military and economic #'s compared to the canon world populations. and it struck me that battletech is not unique.

looking at phase world, a planet with populations in the hundred millions or billions, like most CCW and TGE coreworlds, should be able to feild huge armies. millions of troops. thousands of tanks and fighters. orbital defense ground stations. ect. the total military of the CCW probably falls in the trillions range as far as Combat troop numbers, not even counting the much higher amounts you'd get in supply, maintnence, communications, ect. heck, their Special forces teams probably add up to the millions.
and yet, they lack the ability to move more than a miniscule fraction of their military force. at least, in canon.

[Braden Campbell]

Planetary invasion (generally) cannot be done. Phase World Spacecraft will tell you why.

Besides, why bother with the expense of "take and hold" when you can just slag the planet from orbit and be on your merry way?

[Aramanthus]

In Babylon 5 we see the results of a planetary bombardment using a mass driver. Naval weapons being used on a planetary surface could ensure a successful group holding the terratory they presently control. Esppecially if they can maintain control of that high ground they could eliminate any oppositional forces on the planet without too much problem. You'd just need good intelligence on it.


Now Battletech.....I'm not defending that one at all.

now Renegade Legion had appropriate forces taking out planetary forces defenses.

[Library Ogre]

And in B5, we also see the Centauri invasion of Narn; they are quickly bombarded into military submission, but that doesn't make them a submissive populace ("And the rock cried out, no hiding place" comes to mind)

[Aramanthus]

That is very true. Because later the Centauri issued that order for every centauri injured something 100 narn would be killed. I have to rewatch the series. It's been awhile.

[glitterboy2098]

Planetary invasion (generally) cannot be done. Phase World Spacecraft will tell you why.

for the same reasons i pointed out above? to many locals, to little transport capacity?

Besides, why bother with the expense of "take and hold" when you can just slag the planet from orbit and be on your merry way?

sometimes you want the planet with cities and industry intact. especially in cases like CCW vs. TGE, when the CCW will want to liberate oppressed populations, not commit genocide.

[Aramanthus]

And holding a thing like a city could probably be doen with minimum forces as long as you hold that high ground.

[Braden Campbell]

Planetary invasion (generally) cannot be done. Phase World Spacecraft will tell you why.

for the same reasons I pointed out above? Too many locals, to little transport capacity?

pretty much. Too many locals, too much of an expense to even things out ... it would take the entire resources of a power bloc to capture and maintain control of an important Core World (like Terra Prime or Kreeghor-Tet, say) during which time everything else is open to attack. Planetary invasion is just so big a logistical nightmare, that it never happens.

The only exception might be as the final act in a much longer (and largely space-borne) war... as the liberation of Berlin could really only take place after everything else in Nazi Germany was smashed and gone.

[Aramanthus]

And even after the war in europe was officially over there were still unorganized nazi forces opposing the allies for years. (This is a part of history I'm still doing my own research on.) There aren't many references to that time in that I've found. So I'm still looking for those good ones.

[DhAkael]

I have one word.
It's not a palladium books word.
It applies.

'Exterminatus'

If all you want is to have the population anhilated, and the planet no longer of value to the enemy (except maybe for mineral resources); drop a few dozen air-burst bio-weapons that eat ALL life (animal vegtable, bacterial, etc) then light a match.

Simple.
Easy.
Efficient.

It would take care of the whole Tzee problem in one fell swoop.
Oh right...sorry, forgot. That sorta thing doesn't exist in canon. My bad.

[Aramanthus]

I have things like that in my game.

[Braden Campbell]

What makes you think that such weapons weren't deployed by both the CCW and the TGE during the Great War? What makes you think that such weapons don't continue to exist to this day?
]
Everyone in the Three Galaxies knows that the next time the two super powers square off, it will be the end of everything, a la Mutually Assured Destruction. Deterrence is the only thing keeping the status quo right now.

[Aramanthus]

You are right Braden! Are you going to include them in your book?

[KLM]

What makes you think that such weapons weren't deployed by both the CCW and the TGE during the Great War? What makes you think that such weapons don't continue to exist to this day?

Check the description of the Protector: it is able to devastate a planet.
(OK, the stats don't support this, but what the hell...)

The weapons are there. However, somehow even the TGE stopped
exterminating whole planets. Also, I suspect even the TGE has a
rather substantial force to help Phase World out (via the spacegates)
if someone tries that way of suicide... (ie. attacking).

Also, 15 to 35% of all trade of the major powers goes through Phase
World...

This, and the fact that if our IRL civilisation could build a starship
with like a thousand ton payload, it could convert a planet into
an uninhabitable radioactive waste without much investment
into our current nuclear arsenal.

Well, I suggest something along the way of the Geneva Conventions.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

actually, thats the kind of thing that battletech uses to "explain" its absurdity in therm of military action. (the militaries are still too darn small though)

they have the Ares Conventions, a set of rules that basically ban the use of WMD's like nukes, bioweapons, chemicals, and orbital bombardment, ban fighting in cities, and so on.
of course, these were created after two wars where unrestrained use of said tactics decimated entire worlds, caused advanced technology to be lost, and reduced militaries to a fraction of their original semi-realistic sizes.

which basically pushed warfare back to a Nepoleonic age in terms of how wars were fought. the remaining factories and such became reasons to fight, so battles tended to occur out in the countryside to prevent collateral damage, and such battles were little more than jousts to effect a transfer as cleanly as possible, pratically ritual combat.

that only lasted for 1 war (which saw at most a dozen worlds changing hands, and was mostly ineffective raids...whoopdedo ). then one ruler figured out that if people like Napoleon could command thousands of troops in the days before radio, if Einsenhower could command an entire front, then with FTl comms and ships he could orchestrate entire regiments and steamroll his enemies. so he kicked the factories into high gear and started building up more regiments. the 4th war was much more bloody (still relitively clean compared to the first 2, all conventional), and set the stage for the rest of the wars to follow, where unrestricted warfare makes a comback.

[KLM]

Since chemical warfare was not used in WWII, I think
there is a possibility of a somewhat settled intergalactic
communitiy to solve problems without blasting planets
away.

But as a resurrection of my "military spending" topic:
Yepp, the scale is off...

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

The Three Galaxies have the Lanator Accords... which will be appearing in upcoming books. Signed between the TGE and the CCW at the close of the Great War, it forbids the use of orbital and mass-destruction weapons within the atmosphere of any inhabited planet.

It also forced the TGE to accept blame for starting the Great War, and made them pay war reparations (which ended up going to Naruni Enterprises in a round-a-bout way).

Regrettably, there are several powers (the Golgan for example) who are not signatories, and would thus be free to blast entire populations into lumps of coal.

[glitterboy2098]

i presume that "orbital" would also rule out low effect Kinetic bombardment systems like Project Thor? orbiting "crowbars" a few meters long used to take out hardened bunkers and similar?

[Braden Campbell]

Hmmm...

I don't know.

The authors of the Accords were specifically thinking of cruise missiles, big-ass lasers, and particle beams (the 1D4x1000 MDC kind that can vaporize a city in a few blows).

You know... "dumping a bunch of crowbars out the airlock" might not be in there at all.

[Rallan]

Even without the threat of WMDs in Phase World, there's gonna be a major deterrant effect keeping the CCW and TGE from making war at each other: namely the fact that there is no such thing as effective defense in a galactic-level war. Both sides have to spread their forces among thousands and thousands of star systems to try and defend everything, which means that the defensive fleet hovering over any given planet is going to be a tiny fraction of a percent of that side's total forces. If you just gathered up 1% of your side's fleet into an offensive force, you'd have an armada capable of rocking up to any randomly selected enemy star system and utterly annihilating its local defensive fleet through sheer weight of numbers, and they couldn't do a thing about it. And then when you're finished you could move on, and a day later you could repeat the same trick on pretty much any enemy world within a couple of hundred light years of the first.

[KLM]

Even without the threat of WMDs in Phase World, there's gonna be a major deterrant effect keeping the CCW and TGE from making war at each other: namely the fact that there is no such thing as effective defense in a galactic-level war.

Wrong.

Axis-5 serves as an example in canon.

Beside, the "geographical" attributes of the Halo make warfare
a 2 dimensional thing on strategic level (well, 3D, but "only" a 100
or so lys thick). One element of such an Detection and Early Warning
(DEW) system probably costs less than 10 million credits, automated,
and very had to find... And providing a globe of detection 10 lys in
radius.
Make it a 15 ly cube for simplicity's sake, and by investing 26
of them we have an early warning system covering a 45 lys
cube (with the defended planet/system in the center) giving
about 3 hours of early warning. It also means, that we have
3 hours, for calling in reinforcements, ie. from like 22 lys.
The slower the intruder, the bigger space can a single task
force cover and protect.
Same for every second the planetary forces hold against the
assault.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

Even without the threat of WMDs in Phase World, there's gonna be a major deterrant effect keeping the CCW and TGE from making war at each other: namely the fact that there is no such thing as effective defense in a galactic-level war.

Wrong.

Axis-5 serves as an example in canon.

Axis-5 serves as an example of how canon isn't always smart. . If the rebels didn't have a chronic case of script immunity, the TGE could scrape together one of them one-percent armadas I just described and blow them out of the water. The fact that that planet continues to be a battlefield and the Free World Council have survived non-stop warfare with the TGE after all this time makes about as much sense as the fact that the Coalition States is supposed to have however many million SAMAS suits stockpiled. It's an author brainfart that violates common sense (although at least I'll grant that a bunch of rebels fighting an evil empire is reasonably cool, so it's a more justifiable piece of bad logic than the CS SAMAS stockpile ).

Beside, the "geographical" attributes of the Halo make warfare
a 2 dimensional thing on strategic level (well, 3D, but "only" a 100
or so lys thick). One element of such an Detection and Early Warning
(DEW) system probably costs less than 10 million credits, automated,
and very had to find... And providing a globe of detection 10 lys in
radius.
Make it a 15 ly cube for simplicity's sake, and by investing 26
of them we have an early warning system covering a 45 lys
cube (with the defended planet/system in the center) giving
about 3 hours of early warning. It also means, that we have
3 hours, for calling in reinforcements, ie. from like 22 lys.
The slower the intruder, the bigger space can a single task
force cover and protect.

Even that's not a problem. One percent of the CCW or TGE's military might is equivalent to at least a few dozen star systems worth of stuff (and if the CCW and TGE have more than 10,000 inhabited systems a piece, it's equivalent to the combined defenses of more than 100 inhabited solar systems). That's going to be more than enough to not only crush any randomly picked planet they go to, but kick the pants off reinforcements from nearby systems that scrambled in time to meet them and enough to fry further reinforcements that arrive as the battle progresses. Obviously you can't stay forever (every hour you hang around kicking ass, the radius of systems whose reinforcements can reach you will increase by 5-10 light years), but you're definitely going to have enough time to let your overwhelming numerical advantage kick some ass for you before the amount of attention you're getting forces you to retreat.

I mean sure, the fact that reinforcements from up to one or two hundred light years away can reach you today means that you don't really have to worry about being overwhelmed by raids from nearby enemy worlds. But when the vast bulk of both nations' forces are spread out across three galaxies worth of space that takes months (or year perhaps? I'm not too sure on the sheer scale of the distances involved), a relatively small concentration of one side's fleet would be more than enough to turn up and fight every enemy within a week's travel to a standstill.

And of course there's always behind the lines stuff. If you concentrate your offensive fleet and then launch it off into intergalactic space, you can (eventually) pop yourself back into one of the Three Galaxies thousands of lightyears from the "front line", in areas that are likely to have a far lower than average concentration of defensive forces. Or if you're willing to use phase technology you could zap over to Phase World in the blink of an eye and charter one of their starship gates to drop your armada out virtually anywhere.

And god help you if the UWW or the Splugorth get involved, because any planet with ley lines and nexus points (ie virtually all of them) could end up knee-deep in an invading army before they even know what's going on. No early warning system, no way of predicting where they'll turn up, and (unless you've got some serious magical capabilities of your own) no way of following them after they decide to pack up and leave.

[Braden Campbell]

Man... Palladium really needs to publish my stuff instead of just hoarding like it was made of gold.

Which it is, by the way.

It's not script immunity that's keeping the FWC alive (well, not entirely). For a long time, the CCW was supporting them, and the battle was actually a proxy war against the TGE... like Vietnam, with lasers. Even the Prometheans of Phase World officially recognized the FWC as a new nation after ten years.

Then there was a Consortium policy change 24 years ago, and the FWC no longer receives direct funding/aid. Only now its got strong ties to Phase World, and I think the Kreeghor are afraid to obliterate it for fear of a) breaking the Lanator Accords, thereby plunging them into war with the CCW, and b) ticking off the Prometheans... because who knows what they might do.

[Aramanthus]

IDFs are going to play a role against any sort of invasion of the CCW. And if you consider that most of the local IDF's have probably operated together for a number of years. Therefore their fleet commanders will be able to work together as a unified force. At least that is my opion on it.

[KLM]

Axis-5 serves as an example of how canon isn't always smart. .

Actually, if one applies those navigation hazards (reppression fields
for example), good early warning systems, that half sentence about
frigates suffering horrible losses against larger ships, and that the
TGE is paranoid enough not to let TWO Doombringers under one
command (not even a Doombringer and her escort!)...
Oh, and I bet the CAF has a sizeable portion of its intelligence
dedicated to the knowledge of the location of all TGE Doombringers.

Well, it can be fashioned into an Axis-like stalemate, without
violating logic.

One thing however needs to be fixed: stats.

According to the fluff text the Protector can shatter a small moon
or devastate a planet - yet it has trouble conducting orbital
bombardment due the lacking range and damage of the main guns.

Same for the Doombringer - they are supposed to stomp on any
planetary defense (see and that makes the TGE's policy above
a bit more understandable) - yet, if you dig up the "Military spending"
topic, in their currents stats, they _might_ defeat the IDF of a
single planet with like 2 billion inhabitants.

viewtopic.php?t=48533&start=0

That aside, the FWC and the Axis-5 idea is perfectly valid for me.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

It's prefectly valid to me also KLM!

[glitterboy2098]

One thing however needs to be fixed: stats.

According to the fluff text the Protector can shatter a small moon
or devastate a planet - yet it has trouble conducting orbital
bombardment due the lacking range and damage of the main guns.

in order to do that, you'd need to revamp part of the game mechanics. like speed and weapons ranges.

right now, the ships have enough Firepower to decimate a planet (not it doesn't say how long this takes...or exactly what "Decimation" entails). their main guns are megaton per second levels of power Directed energy weapons, they carry large supplies of multimegaton warheaded cruise missiles (AM and Singularity warheads), and those definately have the range to hit a planet from orbit.

and shattering a small moon doesn't help much either, since a "small moon" could easily be an asteroidal body a few hundred miles across, like Almathea.

now, by changing ranges to something a bit more realistic (so ships no longer close to spitting distance to reach maximum range), like say, 100 times current? or at least 10X current, even a hunter class is a serius threat to a major city. as any space warship aught to be.

and to ensure that such increased ranges don't turn warfare into effectively stationary targets taking highly accurate potshots at each other, you'd need to boost the speeds of the ships substantially. i'm talking % the speed of light type maximums. then space battles occur across entire star systems, with ships actually able to traverse those distances in a reasonable amount of time. IE: can do the things the fluff describes them as doing.

if you invoke those two changes, you get a space combat set closer to the fluff, and it becomes very easy to kill planets. just rev up to max speed headed towards a planet, and chuck some trash out the airlock. Kinetic Kill[/ur;] weapons are powerful enough in spacee combat. but moving up to a portion of the speed of light and dropping dead weight makes it [url=http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#rbomb]a Reletivistic weapon.

R-bombs move too fast to be stopped, too fast to be picked up in time to warn people, and crack planets open.

which is a good reason to have them banned under things like Braden's Lanotaur accords. they're cheap to make, easy to use, given the level of gravity control in the 3G's, and it ensures a MAD situation. the TGE R-bombs a CCW planet. the CCW planet retaliates with an R-bomb at a TGE planet. the TGE retaliates back. and the cycle contines until ther are no planets left, just fleets carrying R-bombs that haven't been deployed yet. and with little warning and little way to stop them, all those big fleets are worthless except as R-bomb delivery platforms. and all it takes is one ship to survive and deploy its load.

[Rallan]

IDFs are going to play a role against any sort of invasion of the CCW. And if you consider that most of the local IDF's have probably operated together for a number of years. Therefore their fleet commanders will be able to work together as a unified force. At least that is my opion on it.

I'm sorta lumping them in with the whole. If the CCW wants to put together a large-scale force for a serious offensive, it's almost definitely gonna skim a bit off the top of the various IDFs to beef up the numbers.

[Esckey]

I'm sure most systems of importance have an array of other defenses. Massive Spacestations that dwarf a Doombringer, hundreds of thousands of miles of mines, dreadnought sized guns on moons.

I think the biggest problem with invading a planet is the causalties. To effectivly invade a planet you would need ships that can carry tens of thousands, but if you lost a ship on approach or something....your kinda screwed

[Aramanthus]

I agree with that Esckey about planetary defense. You see that in most major SciFi novels. I know Honor Harrington mentions those in abundance!

[KLM]

On the other hand, most planetary goverments - after losing
the bigger part of their space assets - can be persuaded to
surrender.

In case of the TGE, I can see a rebellion, where the Imperial
legions (except the majority of the Kreeghors, and probably
a few "loyal to the death" Wolfen) side to the new goverment,
and from that point, not more troops are needed, than in
the case of the about surrender.

Of course maintaining space superiority is essential.

Of course there are scenarios like Japan in WWII, or
- for that matter - Carthage. But again, after Carthage,
not many powers resisted Rome to the end...

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

That is always the tricky part. Maintaining space superiority! A strong system defense never hurts to be hard to crack for an invading force.

[Daniel Stoker]

I agree with that Esckey about planetary defense. You see that in most major SciFi novels. I know Honor Harrington mentions those in abundance!

Most of those forts are considered to be near obsolete though in the Honor Harrington universe because while they can pack a huge whallop they're stuck in one place and unless you get close their missiles are just going to be flying ballistic by the time they get to a ship and the ship can just dodge, while the fort is kinda SOL and just has to sit there and get pounded.


Daniel Stoker

[Aramanthus]

Yes, they are. But in the latest books system defenses are still at an extreme level especially with Apollo!

[KLM]

Orbital fortresses must have some manouver thrusters,
to alter orbit, in cases like a solar flare kicks them off
from the previous, or just to fill in holes.

Also, there is the issue of missiles arriving on long
range on ballistic course... It is not neccessary to
happen. After the missile is set on course, cut off
the engine, and when it gets relatively close, reignite
and make the final interception manouvers.
A particularly nasty form of it is the multi-warhead
missile in RIFTS - the final stage is actually a swarm
of missiles (which, as consisting 4 missiles, cannot
be dodge).

---------
But that said, orbital fortresses are not the things I
would trust my life on. Yeah, they come handy
sometimes, but if you need like a hundred orbitals
to cover the sky, a few dozen true warships with
individually comparable punch can be built from
those resources.
And I bet, that it takes only a few of these ships
to take out one station, relatively safe.

There are exceptions, however.

There can be weapons, which clearly surpass
ship mounted ones - ie. the civilisation in question
simply cannot build large enough ships.
Or the cost of the drives takes up the majority of
the resources - so from the effort of one warship
one can build several dozens of battlestations.

Frankly, for the major powers of the 3 Galaxies
these exception are nonexistent.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

I'm sure most systems of importance have an array of other defenses. Massive Spacestations that dwarf a Doombringer, hundreds of thousands of miles of mines, dreadnought sized guns on moons.

Doesn't really matter though. If lots of systems have more defences than usual, it just means that a fleet made up of a small percentage of one side's total force is going to be even bigger than it already was.

I think the biggest problem with invading a planet is the causalties. To effectivly invade a planet you would need ships that can carry tens of thousands, but if you lost a ship on approach or something....your kinda screwed

Presumably you're going to be smart enough not to bring in the troopships until it's relatively safe to do so. After all, if you don't knock out the enemy fleet then you won't be able to control orbit, and if you don't control orbit, any troops of yours on the ground will be toast.

Or better yet, you just don't bring the troopships at all. If the CCW and TGE enter a state of total war they're probably not going to bother attempting to occupy enemy worlds, because trying to keep them would just tie up too much resources. If you capture Planet X, the other side will want it back. And if they wait until reinforcements from a couple of weeks away can all muster and launch a combined counterattack, you won't be able to stop them from recapturing Planet X unless you dedicate a sizable chunk of your forces to sitting around babysitting it. Later in the war whoever's winning will want to sieze some solar systems to use as forward bases, but early on in the piece they'd probably limit ground deployments to worlds where there's a friendly resistance movement.

Unless the UWW or the Splugorth get involved of course. One of their big strengths is the ability to use dimensional rifts to deploy entire armies without the need for ships, and they'd be downright silly if they didn't exploit that for all its worth.

[taalismn]

That's why one of the few exceptions to the arguments about orbital fortresses would, IMHO, be Gateway Structures...being essentially chokepoints, they have to be heavily armored and protected against terrorism and those who seek to go through normal space, seize control of the Gate, and use it to transport hordes of less expensive, non-FTL units through...

[The Beast]

Planetary invasion (generally) cannot be done. Phase World Spacecraft will tell you why.

Is this a future DB?

[Braden Campbell]

Yup... although it may have reverted back to its working title, Fleets of the Three Galaxies, if the latest press release is to be believed.

Other Phase World projects lined up for 2008/2009 include my interpretation of the United Worlds of Warlock, Thundercloud Galaxy, and Corkscrew Galaxy.

See here for more details: LINK

[taalismn]

Planetary invasion (generally) cannot be done. Phase World Spacecraft will tell you why.

Is this a future DB?

No planetary invasions? That's no fun.....How about Planetary Domination from Orbit?

[KLM]

I think it is a bit early to point out inconsistencies in
a DB not yet published, but.. Well, in the DMB3 at
the description of the Smasher hints, that while that
particular ship is not able to perform an invasion but
other could.

Also, both the Khartum-Terek and the early hystory
or the UWW hints that invasions happened.

Just my two cents.

Adios
KLM

[Braden Campbell]

Planetary invasion (and occupation) is not an everyday occurance in the Three Galaxies, but it does happen. It's just that they're risky to the point where it's a rare and memorable event.

[taalismn]

Well, I imagine that logistically speaking, funneling men and supplies across interstellar distances is prohibitively expensive and time-lag dangerous(look at the detail planning for the logistics that had to go into D-Day and the period immediately following)...moving the sort of manpower needed to subjugate advanced and heavily populated worlds in the ships of the 3G amounts to moving them a thimbleful at a time...

This is probably one of the areas the Splugorth have an advantage in...their knowledge of magical rifting allows them to move millions of troops to a suitable target world en masse...The possibility that the UWW might develop, if not already have, keeps the UWW's major enemies from engaging in all out war against them...if they felt pressed, the UWW might retaliate by firectly invading an enemy homeworld, bypassing traditional defenses...

[KLM]

Well, I imagine that logistically speaking, funneling men and supplies across interstellar distances is prohibitively expensive and time-lag dangerous(look at the detail planning for the logistics that had to go into D-Day and the period immediately following)...moving the sort of manpower needed to subjugate advanced and heavily populated worlds in the ships of the 3G amounts to moving them a thimbleful at a time...

Well, while it probably was not discussed earlier, but I guess,
that 3 Galactic troops require less equipment (in tons/cubic meters)
for operating a given period than their WWII counterparts.

I mean a WWII brigade required food, fuel, ammo, spare parts,
and I think does not have a complete medical facility.

A similar sized 3 Galactic corps - while having far greater
possibilities - requires less food (can either manufacture,
and carries dehydrated/compressed foods), minuscule
amount of fuel (think about how thirsty MBT-s are),
less ammo (E-clips are reusable, railgun ammo isn't
come with brass casing), less spare parts (or can even
manufacture them on site, using nanotech portable
facilities), and probably can offer even full bionic
reconstruction.

Also, it is not just having a much bigger bang,
but can control a much greater area for pacification.

Of course, this is still a whopping amount a assets to
be hauled, but on the other hand, a lot of things can
fit into the 40 million tons bays of a Doombringer.

This is probably one of the areas the Splugorth have an advantage in...their knowledge of magical rifting allows them to move millions of troops to a suitable target world en masse...The possibility that the UWW might develop, if not already have, keeps the UWW's major enemies from engaging in all out war against them...if they felt pressed, the UWW might retaliate by firectly invading an enemy homeworld, bypassing traditional defenses...

The UWW actually BEGUN its expansion travelling via Rifts,
and discovering the idea of a spaceship later.

However...

Well, if a planet is about to be invaded, I guess psyhics (if
there are any psi-sensitives) will experience visions about
it. And as with the CS we have discussed in the other topics,
any goverment (or even corporation management) will
employ clairvoyants in "statistical quantity" for effects like
Minority Report.

So, most planets aren't caught completely by suprise, when
a few million Kydians begin to march in from several Rifts.

Or maybe... Well, clairvoyance is just too widespread,
and probably ruined too many good plots of a Sploogie
or other powerfull being, for someone not trying to make
about it. Like veiling their motives, or that scene from Krull.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Planetary invasion (and occupation) is not an everyday occurance in the Three Galaxies, but it does happen. It's just that they're risky to the point where it's a rare and memorable event.

I partly agree. A heavily populated planet (one billion
and up) to be invaded is not something that happens
everyday.

However, I have the impression that not all planets
are that populated.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

Planetary invasion (and occupation) is not an everyday occurance in the Three Galaxies, but it does happen. It's just that they're risky to the point where it's a rare and memorable event.

Totally. Invading a planet wouldn't be that big a deal by itself, no matter how badass it is. Population of 30 billion? Fleet of Naruni and Phase-tech ships? Huge ground army? Like I care, I've got the forces of half a galaxy at my disposal!

It's just that no world exists in a vacuum (pun definitely intended). Pick a fight with a member of one of the big powers and before you know it the other side will have put together a relief force to remind you that they also have half a galaxy at their disposal. Throw your weight around at the bigger third-party factions like the UWW or the Splugorth, and you risk giving the other big power a chance to take you from behind. And try conquering the little guys one at a time, and before you know it a half dozen free worlds and tiny alliances will be joining your main rivals for every one little guy that you conquer.

[glitterboy2098]

Totally. Invading a planet wouldn't be that big a deal by itself, no matter how badass it is. Population of 30 billion? Fleet of Naruni and Phase-tech ships? Huge ground army? Like I care, I've got the forces of half a galaxy at my disposal!

only you don't. not really. what good of a few trillion troops when you gut your defenses elsewhere to move even a fraction of them to the target?

there are not troop transports in canon AtM. so you'd need to direct your battleships and supercarriers to the task, since those carry a regiment or two each of combined arms. (usually with insufficent landing ships to deploy them, but thats a different issue)

but to move the hundreds of regiments you'd need to do the job traditionally you'd be using all the canon Battleships and supercarriers. to invade just one world. and since those don't go anywhere without escort, your making a big dent in your escort ship #'s too.

to conquer 1 world, how many hundreds are you willing to leave defenseless?


now, that assumes a traditional conquest. i suspect that the 3G's relies heavily on "shock and awe" campaigns, with lots of emphasis on aerospace assets. after eliminating the defendersorbital assets (warships, armed space stations), you reduce the enemy fixed positions and bases from the air or space using the masssive fighter compliments of 3G's warships, before landing your ground forces to draw out the remaining enemy forces to be reduce by fighters. final phase would be rapid deployment of troops to seize/raze important governmental offices and locations, as well as any military bases left intact.
then you sit tight while the occupation force arrives over time to begin the peacekeeping and reconstruction process.

countering this would be defenses relying heavily on aerospace assets as well to attempt to deny the invaders air superiority, especially if the world has industry able to build said fighters. ground forces would likely hole up in cities to prevent destruction from orbit, and to make it harder to remove them using conventional ground forces.

if the defenders lost, the survivors would probably start up a guerilla resistance, moving to terroristic actions to make the occupation difficult while buying time for their nation ot build up a counter invasion force to push the invaders off world.

[Aramanthus]

I can see that most of the ones that fall in one of the Major power blocks can probably call on various magics to prevent armies from just appearing on the surface of the world. I agree planetary invasions don't occur all that often in the power blocks of the 3Gs. But the independent worlds, it might happen a lot more often.

Just my two cents.

[KLM]

there are not troop transports in canon AtM. so you'd need to direct your battleships and supercarriers to the task, since those carry a regiment or two each of combined arms. (usually with insufficent landing ships to deploy them, but thats a different issue)

but to move the hundreds of regiments you'd need to do the job traditionally you'd be using all the canon Battleships and supercarriers. to invade just one world. and since those don't go anywhere without escort, your making a big dent in your escort ship #'s too.

Canon is over the hill. First, ever tried to cram the troop complements
into the shuttles? You won't succeed without massive investment in
temporal magic.

Second, a 50 MILLION ton supercarrier, which carries only 5000 trops.
(and as I recall, if one takes the shuttle's stats seriously, the
onboard 50 shuttle can land each and every troop in just one wave...)
We frequently joke that one can wonder for hours to meet someone
aboard a Packmaster or a Doombringer - thought the ship operates
at full "must have" numbers.

Yeah, right. Especially, if we compare what a force of Scimitars
can carry (and do), if built from the cash needed to build one
packmaster.

I would say, a single soldier is a roughly 10 ton "cargo" - so a
packmaster, if fitted for invasion could carry like half a million
troops. And that seems to be enough to make a bridgehead,
and secure the capital (or even several key cities).

Just my two cents.

Adios
KLM

[Rallan]

Totally. Invading a planet wouldn't be that big a deal by itself, no matter how badass it is. Population of 30 billion? Fleet of Naruni and Phase-tech ships? Huge ground army? Like I care, I've got the forces of half a galaxy at my disposal!

only you don't. not really. what good of a few trillion troops when you gut your defenses elsewhere to move even a fraction of them to the target?

But you don't have to gut them. You could have an overwhelming ten to one advantage just by skimming a relatively small fraction from across a broad swathe of your holdings. To individual planets it'd be no more of a burden than sending UN peacekeepers is to most national militaries on modern-day Earth. Shazaam, problem solved.

there are not troop transports in canon AtM. so you'd need to direct your battleships and supercarriers to the task, since those carry a regiment or two each of combined arms. (usually with insufficent landing ships to deploy them, but thats a different issue)

That's because troop transports are boring ships. You really think that in a setting spanning three entire galaxies, where its a matter of canon that pretty much all the major powers have fought ground wars in their time, that none of them would have a way of moving troops around? Hell, if nothing else they could just pick up a bunch of cargo ships (which won't upset your rigid adherence to canon because there's zillions of 'em) and re-equip them as troop transports.

You send your battlefleet in to sieze control of space and bombard enemy defensive positions from orbit (maybe with a limited deployment of some sort of commando units to help soften things up). Then once you've well and truly secured orbital space and crippled the enemy's ability to attack your fleet from surface positions, you use some more of your badass commandos (with a healthy amount of atmosphere-capable starfighters and CG-equipped PA) to establish "beachheads" on the ground, then bring in the troopships and deploy the main body of your force. In no time at all you'll be able to mop up whatever conventional ground forces they've got and fly your army of aliens off to the capital so that you can tell the president to clean out his desk.

countering this would be defenses relying heavily on aerospace assets as well to attempt to deny the invaders air superiority, especially if the world has industry able to build said fighters. ground forces would likely hole up in cities to prevent destruction from orbit, and to make it harder to remove them using conventional ground forces.

Balls to that, that's what orbital death rays are for. If our early 21st century technology can read a car number plate from orbit, you can bet your sweet ass that they'll be able to count the freckles on a guy's ass from orbit while he's still got his pants on, and use that to aim whatever badass space-to-ground weaponry they've got.

If you go in with overwhelming odds, the battle in orbit isn't going to last long enough for their groundside manufacturing capacity to matter, because you'll pretty quickly be in a position to a) start blowing away factories from orbit and more importantly b) launch your ground invasion.

if the defenders lost, the survivors would probably start up a guerilla resistance, moving to terroristic actions to make the occupation difficult while buying time for their nation ot build up a counter invasion force to push the invaders off world.

That's when, not if, thanks to the sheer scale that a major power can operate on when he gets it into his head to conquer a planet. Seriously, the defences one world can mount against a vast interstellar empire are virtually a non-issue. All they're good for against an invasion on this sort of scale is to buy enough time for an intervention. And it's the intervention that's the only real deterrant against invasion. With a handful of very notable exceptions (Phase World itself and the Kreeghor homeworld both spring to mind), there just aren't any planets who could resist an invasion by a major interstellar power all by themselves.