Magic vs Psionics [descriptive]

[Talavar]

From an outsiders' point of view, psionics are more internalized - they're the power of the human mind. In the setting, some people had psionics in a minor way before the rifts came, and psionics could be induced through scientific methods like the Crazy conversion.

Magic is more external - it comes from the beyond, and it's a way for the caster to tap into the power of the ley lines. In Rifts, many consider magic an inhuman power, since it didn't exist on earth until the rifts came, much of the knowledge was brought by the in-rush of D-bees, and it's the power behind most of the dangerous invaders like alien intelligences, demons, dragons, etc.

I think those are some of the key distinctions between how the two are viewed by people without either in Rifts, and why psionics are generally more accepted among the major human powers than magic.

[drewkitty ~..~]

magic requires both a vocal and gesture in order to work
psionics are noted by just seeing somebody looking at something hard, and then something happens

In the PB system, spell only take an incantation, the spoken word, to form a spell. Any other things such as hand waving and physical components are just window dressing. This is unless you have a magic deffecency, found in Through the Glass Darkly, or the discription of the spell states it need a phyical component, as in a summoner's magic circles found in the PF2 main book.

So the differnce to an outside observer between a mage casting a spell and a PSI using a power, is the words being said by the mage and the time it take to say those words. Each still has to concentrate.

But I have to agree with Talavar, most of the time its not how the effect is done, its the perception of the ppl watching it.

So while a CS military person would look at PSI power as just something some people (humans) can do, while seeing magic as something the monster (human,De-Bee, or otherwise) has made a pact with a demon to get.

While a military person outside the CS might look a both as learned skills that people (human or otherwise might have).

But with people being people, their opinions are mixed and each indeviduale will have their own.

[Northern Ranger]

I've always seen a big difference between the two, and frankly, I think Psionics should be perceived as more frightening than magic. At least with magic you have the warning of the spoken word to tell you a spell is on the way (though I allowed a deaf mage once who cast spells through sign language). Psionics give you no such warning. A psionic can look like just another person on the street, then all of a sudden your hanging upside down in mid-air and getting shaken until all of your gold (or credits) are lying all over the ground. Psionics are frightening because their powerful and low key. Plus, with the psionics ability to scramble a persons thoughts with ease, they make it very difficult for mages to concentrate on casting their spells. (Hard to speak an incantation when all of a sudden you don't remember wha the incantation is.) I think the perception of the two by the average observer is going to be similar to this. Magic is flashy and impressive, and often its practitioners are too, wearing brightly colored robes or powerful looking armor. Psychics spend a lot of their time hiding their abilities, so when their true nature comes to light, people tend to run the other way, screaming in horror. (They might flock to the mage in the hopes of getting a good show.)

[Talavar]

I suppose psionics are sneakier, but magic, in terms of fear, has a number of factors that make it worse to non-magic users. Magic is seen as inhuman by many - basically as power granted by supernatural evil. Also, psionics are understood by the science of Rifts earth - magic is not.

I think there do need to be separate psionic & magic rules and ability lists, for a few reasons: they have different saving throws, a simple, but important distinction, and while there is some overlap in the effects both generate, there's a lot of distinction too. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to me if a psychic could summon demons, or do physical transformations, as examples.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As players, do you feel it is neccessary for there to be separate psionic and magic rules, spell/power lists & spells etc ?? Yes


There are things that only PSIs can do and they are things that only magic can do, and the overlapping of the things is very small.

And the rules are significantly different as the power they use to make things happen.

[Northern Ranger]

The answer to whether or not the two need different rules is an emphatic yes. Both types of abilities are very powerful, but in my opinion psionics are the far more dangerous of the two. Magic has far more damage inflicting spells than do psionics, but psionics are more likely to play with a victims mind than is magic. The more personal aspect of invading a persons mind, or even inflicting damage through mental manipulation, I think screams for a stricter set of rules. It's too easy to be very evil with psionics (which isn't to say it isn't easy with magic, it's just... different). Granted, this is just my opinion, and I'm sure there are any number of arguments out there to naysay my thoughts, but there's my two cents!

[Devari]

Thanks for all the feedback so far, its great.

Couple of things. Last night I went through RUE for info on the differences between the two, descriptive wise. Now, I didnt read individual powers/spell etc, but the book had very little descriptive overviews of the two, which was a little disappointing. So I then went and checked out Pyscape (new from my grab bag this year) and even that didnt have much detail on the flavor and descriptive side of things, just a fair chunk of rules clarifications about powers, then the powers themsevles, which was disappointing. Even read the intro for several O.C.C/R.C.C is see if such descriptive details were hidden in there, and didnt find overly much....so wise folks of the megaverse, where should I look for a better idea of the difference (beyond the feedback from this thread so far )

Cheers

Kal

There is a brief description of psychic characters on p. 138-139 of RUE (a simliar description is found p. 101-102 of the original rifts main book) that you might find useful. This section provides a brief overview describing how magic and psionics are related and there is also quite a bit of information on psionics and magic scattered thoughout the descriptions of the O.C.C. classes.

I'll try to provide a more detailed description of the differences. Basically, you can think of psionics as a special ability that some humans have naturally acquired the potential for. Specific psionic powers need to be refined and developed but the basic psychic ability is inherent to the individual. Someone either has psychic abilities or they don't - it isn't something that can normally be taught or learned by someone who isn't psychic. (You can induce psychic abilities in non-psychic individuals by implantaing psynetic devices into the brain, but this requires sugical alteration with psynetic brain implants). Although psionic abilities are often though of as orginating from a person's "mind" this isn't an entirely accurate description in Rifts because the person's mind is really just controlling the abilities rather than actually generating them on its own. It's really the combination of the psychic's mind and body that are generating the psychic powers. This is a somewhat unique aspect of how psionics work in Rifts because other RPG systems usually describe psionics as originating entirely from the person's mind. For example, partial cybernetic conversion reduces the psychic's I.S.P. and full conversion cyborgs lose the ability to use psionics at all even though their mind and brain are fully intact.

Now, magic is really the exact opposite in terms of how the abilities are developed. Magical energy (P.P.E.) exists in all living creatures on Rifts earth but controlling magic is an ability that needs to be learned. The ability to cast spells doesn't come naturally from a person's mind and body but rather by learning to control magical energies that exist both within and outside of the person. Unlike a psychic, who can spontaneously develop their abilities, someone isn't going to suddenly start casting spells without training to become a spellcaster. This differs from psionics because magic is basicallly a skill that is being learned instead of an inherent ability that is being developed. As stated on p. 185 of RUE: "Theoreticaly, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves to be imposible for most people". Now, even though a magic user is drawing on enegies that are both internal and external the ability to cast magic depends even more strongly on the person's physical body than the ability to use psionic powers does. Simply getting too many cybernetic implants will prevent the person from casting spells, as will full or partial cyberetic conversion. So for a person to control and use outside magical energies they need to be able to control the magical energies inside their own bodies as well (and since cyberntic bodies aren't alive magical energy doesn't flow through them).

I should also point out that despite these differences magic and psionics in Rifts are fundamentally similar in terms of the type of energies that are being controlled. That's why TW devices can be used by both magic users and psychic characters, since the same basic energies are invovled. But for psychics these energies are being drawn from the psychic's mind and body while magic users draw on engergies both inside and outside their bodies. Although a psychic character would have no idea how to cast a spell and a magic user would have no idea how to control psychic abilities becuase they have learned to access this energy in completely different ways, they are essentially using different methods to control the same basic energy. In fact, some character classes such as the Techno-Wizard can use both magic and psionic powers, although in general the two aren't developed together. In that sense magic and psionics are really two aspects of the same basic energy, but it's being accessed and used with different methods.

So that's basically how you can distingiush between magic and psionics in Rifts. However, different groups in Rifts don't necessarily understand the above distinctions and can have significantly different and inaccurate views of how magic and psionics work. In fact, only a small proportion of people on Rifts earth who would actually understand the distinctions I've described above about magic and psionics, but from the GM's point of view it would be important information.

[Talavar]

Some people don't learn magic though, but effectively cast spells intuitively, like mystics and warlocks.

The thing with magic in Rifts is that it can basically be made to do anything. Spells are effectively made up by spell-casting classes (though the rules for actually creating your own spells are a little sketchy) and so mages with the know-how can duplicate the effects of other types of abilities with spells. There are a number of spells that basically mimic psionic powers, and there are also a number that duplicate the abilities of advanced technology (many of the Combat Magic spells presented in Merc. Ops for example).

I think psionics get a shorter shrift in the descriptive development because many of the powers there are common in other types of sci-fi settings, or in actual speculative science. The writers have often assumed that players of Rifts will be familiar with characters with the same, or at least similar abilities.

Magic gets more "flavour" development I find, but you'll definitely have to look around to get a better grasp on it. I recommend the Federation of Magic and the Book of Magic for general magic background info, and Atlantis and England for books that spend a lot of time and detail describing areas with a very high magic level.

[Devari]

Some people don't learn magic though, but effectively cast spells intuitively, like mystics and warlocks.

That's true, learning magic intuitively is something that has been emphasised recently in the revised O.C.C. descriptions in RUE. I still consider the majority of spellcasting to be a learned skill, however, because of how magic has been described in most of the previous Rifts books. For example, people in Rifts don't randomly develop the ability to cast one or two spells but it is relatively common for humans in Rifts to spontaneously develop minor or major psionic powers. And while someone can decide to take up the study of magic there generally isn't a way to learn or develop psychic powers if someone doesn't have latent psychic abilities.

The thing with magic in Rifts is that it can basically be made to do anything. Spells are effectively made up by spell-casting classes (though the rules for actually creating your own spells are a little sketchy) and so mages with the know-how can duplicate the effects of other types of abilities with spells. There are a number of spells that basically mimic psionic powers, and there are also a number that duplicate the abilities of advanced technology (many of the Combat Magic spells presented in Merc. Ops for example).

I think psionics get a shorter shrift in the descriptive development because many of the powers there are common in other types of sci-fi settings, or in actual speculative science. The writers have often assumed that players of Rifts will be familiar with characters with the same, or at least similar abilities.

I think that the biggest limitation is that psionics are generally underpowered and simply don't have the utility and variety to compete with magic in Rifts. Many psionic powers are also noticeably inferior to their magical equivalents. For example, most mages have several damage-dealing spells along with invisiblity and armor of ithan, giving them a balalnced range of offensive and defensive abilities. Many psychics, on the other hand, don't have easy access to these types of abilities and often have have powers with inferior capabilities. For example, mind bolt is far too expensive in terms of I.S.P. cost to fire more than a few times. TK forcefields can't be moved and psychic body field interfers with the sense of touch. And psychic invisibility is of very limited use, with at least a 20% failure rate against a single target and a dramatically higher failure rate when multiple individuals are making saves. All of these powers also require access to super psionics. Admittedly, psionics do have some advantages (it is generally easier to use psionics than it is to use magic since they can be activated simply by thought, they aren't blocked by wearing armor, etc.), but psionics really can't compete directly with magic in terms of overall effectiveness.

[Talavar]

Psionics are more limited than magic, but then, you can make most of the OCCs plus being a major or minor psychic. There aren't many classes that can also pick up a little bit of magic on the side - magic is either a fundamental part of the OCC, or it's not. The psychic RCCs are more limited, but they are still pretty potent.

Mind bolt is so overcost as to be effectively useless, but the TK force field & body field are pretty good. The areas where psionics really shine over magic are the one failed save & you lose areas, like Bio-manipulate. The telemechanics powers are also great, and both forms of telekinesis available to psychics are better than the spell telekinesis.

In my experience, magic has far greater utility, and can put the hurt on large groups very nicely, but one on one a mind melter will usually beat a ley line walker.

[Devari]

Psionics are more limited than magic, but then, you can make most of the OCCs plus being a major or minor psychic. There aren't many classes that can also pick up a little bit of magic on the side - magic is either a fundamental part of the OCC, or it's not. The psychic RCCs are more limited, but they are still pretty potent.

That's what I don't like about the random minor and master psionic rules. Having around 25% of the characters randomly get psychic powers really diminishes the uniqueness of the psychic O.C.C. characters. I usually don't allow characters to take random minor/master psionics unless it really fits well with the character background or if the character has the option for cybernetics but wants to exchange it for psionics (since the character is exchanging an ability for the psionics instead of simply getting it for free).

Mind bolt is so overcost as to be effectively useless, but the TK force field & body field are pretty good. The areas where psionics really shine over magic are the one failed save & you lose areas, like Bio-manipulate. The telemechanics powers are also great, and both forms of telekinesis available to psychics are better than the spell telekinesis.

The psionic powers that work on saving throws seem to be at one of the two extremes, either really underpowered (such as psionic invisibility) or really overpowered (such as bio-manipulation). In terms of utility I agree that there are certain psionic powers that are quite useful. Telemechanics is one of the best powers available and the pyro/electro/hydrokinesis powers are also good for providing a range of abilities. Now that the pyrokinetic and electrokinetic powers have been updated in RUE to inflict M.D.C. these powers are also much better than they used to be.

In my experience, magic has far greater utility, and can put the hurt on large groups very nicely, but one on one a mind melter will usually beat a ley line walker.

I agree that psychic specilists can be quite powerful but I would still prefer to see psionics brought up to par with magic in terms of overall offensive and defensive powers. The range of psychic powers also needs to be increased dramatically. We currently have too many telekinetic-based powers, some of which are ridiculously overspecialized (TK punch, for example). There are several types of psionic powers that I think would make excellent additions to the game, such as psionic powers based on controlling magnetism, some actual thermokinetic powers (i.e., superheating matter with thermal energy rather than simply causing combustion reactions using pyrokinesis) and powers controling nuclear reactions. If you think about it, a sufficiently powerful psychic character should be able to walk up to a giant robot and literally stop it in its tracks. I think it would be very cool for a psychic character to immobilize a robot with a magnetic power (something like what Magneto could do) or to superheat a robot's nuclear reactor to cause the robot to overheat/shut down. These powers would obviously be super psionics and would need to have an appropriately high I.S.P. cost to maintain balance but I think they would really bring psychics up to a more appropriate power level.

[Library Ogre]

That's what I don't like about the random minor and master psionic rules. Having around 25% of the characters randomly get psychic powers really diminishes the uniqueness of the psychic O.C.C. characters. I usually don't allow characters to take random minor/master psionics unless it really fits well with the character background or if the character has the option for cybernetics but wants to exchange it for psionics (since the character is exchanging an ability for the psionics instead of simply getting it for free).

FWIW, I don't use the random roll. Instead, I require people who want to be psychic to spend skill selections on it. 1 for potential, 1 per power, 1 to upgrade to major psychic (where you can start spending 2 skills to be capable of Super psionics).

[Talavar]

I agree that psychic specilists can be quite powerful but I would still prefer to see psionics brought up to par with magic in terms of overall offensive and defensive powers. The range of psychic powers also needs to be increased dramatically. We currently have too many telekinetic-based powers, some of which are ridiculously overspecialized (TK punch, for example). There are several types of psionic powers that I think would make excellent additions to the game, such as psionic powers based on controlling magnetism, some actual thermokinetic powers (i.e., superheating matter with thermal energy rather than simply causing combustion reactions using pyrokinesis) and powers controling nuclear reactions. If you think about it, a sufficiently powerful psychic character should be able to walk up to a giant robot and literally stop it in its tracks. I think it would be very cool for a psychic character to immobilize a robot with a magnetic power (something like what Magneto could do) or to superheat a robot's nuclear reactor to cause the robot to overheat/shut down. These powers would obviously be super psionics and would need to have an appropriately high I.S.P. cost to maintain balance but I think they would really bring psychics up to a more appropriate power level.

I like that psionics can't do all the same sorts of things that magic can do; it makes them a little more unique, and lends a rock/paper/scissors nature to Rifts Magic/Psionic/High-Tech setting. Taking major psionics as part of a non-psionic class has a pretty decent skill penalty already, though I do feel that even being a minor psionic should come with some penalty.

I don't think psionic powers like you describe are a good fit; like I mentioned earlier in the thread, the majority of Rifts psionics are either based on characters with similar abilities in fiction, or on the supposed "real world" psionic powers that some believe in. Controlling magnetism or nuclear reactions don't fall into either of those two categories as psionics - they feel more like super powers.

And a powerful psionic character can walk up to a giant robot and stop it in its tracks - telemechanic paralysis, against which giant robots get no save.

[Devari]

FWIW, I don't use the random roll. Instead, I require people who want to be psychic to spend skill selections on it. 1 for potential, 1 per power, 1 to upgrade to major psychic (where you can start spending 2 skills to be capable of Super psionics).

I like the idea of giving psionic powers some type of cost but I think that giving characters with non-psychic O.C.C.s access to super psionics can diminish the role of psychic O.C.C. characters substantially. It's not really an issue of game balance so much as an issue of allowing those characters access to abilities that are the speciality of the psychic O.C.C.s. It would be sort of like giving a Glitter Boy suit to a Robot Pilot O.C.C. character. Although from a practical perspective I wouldn't have any real problem with this (since a robot pilot who gets a hold of a Glitter Boy suit would have to be retarded not to use it) as a GM I would try to avoid this because I wouldn't want to diminish the importance of the Glitter Boy characters.

I like that psionics can't do all the same sorts of things that magic can do; it makes them a little more unique, and lends a rock/paper/scissors nature to Rifts Magic/Psionic/High-Tech setting. Taking major psionics as part of a non-psionic class has a pretty decent skill penalty already, though I do feel that even being a minor psionic should come with some penalty.

I agree that psionics shouldn't necessarily have the same range of abilities as magic, but I think that you should be able to accomplish significantly more with psionics than is currently possible with the Rifts rules. Magic will always be able to accomplish any given task easier than psionics because you can simply create a spell specifically designed for that task, but I still think that psionics should be able to do accomplish many of these same tasks even if it requires more effort.

I don't think psionic powers like you describe are a good fit; like I mentioned earlier in the thread, the majority of Rifts psionics are either based on characters with similar abilities in fiction, or on the supposed "real world" psionic powers that some believe in. Controlling magnetism or nuclear reactions don't fall into either of those two categories as psionics - they feel more like super powers.

I think that any power that manipulates basic physical laws is a perfect fit for psionics. Essentailly psionics is simply "mind over matter" and/or "mind over energy". Telekinesis, pyrokinesis, thermokinesis, cryokinesis, electrokinesis and magnetokinesis are all examples of exerting control over matter and energy. Control over gravity, light, time and nuclear effects is more suited for a space-based setting but would also fit this theme as well since these also follow basic physical laws. In terms of being somewhat like "super powers" there is often significant overlap between psionics and super powers in many settings. For example, Professor Xavier and Jean Grey in the X-Men series are psychics and manifest many of these abilities even though most of the X-Men characters fall into the "super powers" category.

And a powerful psionic character can walk up to a giant robot and stop it in its tracks - telemechanic paralysis, against which giant robots get no save.

True, but that power is very specialized and requires other powers as prerequisites. What I was thinking of was applying basic control over electricity/magnetism/temperature to stop the robot. It just feels more appropriate for a psychic to control matter and energy directly to accomplish tasks rather than to use such a specialized power, since magic should be designed around generating specific effects while psionics should be designed around applications that are based on more general abilities.

[The Galactus Kid]

I like the expendature of the finite resources (ISP/PPE). Personally, I think that they represent the ability of the mage to get tired, or mentally exhausted.