Who will dominate RIFTS North America?

[Lenwen]

I find that I am most drawn to Lone Star . The possabilities within that book alone are incredible. I am EXTREAMLY interested in the manufactering of thier famous DogBoy's an what per month they could put out . I cant seem to find it anywhere in Lone Star numbers wise . But yeah I think those books are extreamly well written an well put together .



-Lenwen.

[dark brandon]

I find that I am most drawn to Lone Star . The possabilities within that book alone are incredible. I am EXTREAMLY interested in the manufactering of thier famous DogBoy's an what per month they could put out . I cant seem to find it anywhere in Lone Star numbers wise . But yeah I think those books are extreamly well written an well put together .



-Lenwen.

In the dog boy section, it says I believe a fully funtional adult dog boy can be ready in as little as 5 years. It's near the beginning of the dog boy section I believe.

[Lenwen]

Only at first . As they are able to produce offspring . Meaning you have the natural breading habits augmented along with the GED production of how ever many they can themselves produce . No to mention that each X killer is MORE then capable to take out multipile Xitixic's in a single encounter . Meaning thier survivability is actually quite high as is . I see them being more then able to take out the Xitixic .


-Lenwen.

[Samored II]

Maybe I need to read that worldbook, but what's to stop anyone from developing a few good Nuclear/Antimatter Missiles (the big, megaton+type city-killers) to do some bigtime damage on the Xiticix? They don't look to be the type of species to have specific defenses against that sort of attack, unlike tolkeen (rifting the missiles away/blocking them with magic fields). Do they even have anything that could reliably stop a coalition aircraft that can make mach2 and 60000ft? Wouldn't be hard to drop a couple nukes and then go in for the mop-up as far as I can see. Though, like I said, I haven't got the xiticix book....

The CS has a strict no-nukes policy. They will only use them as a last resort if they feel their existance is threatened. They don't see the Xiticix as they level of a threat.

[dark brandon]

Maybe I need to read that worldbook, but what's to stop anyone from developing a few good Nuclear/Antimatter Missiles (the big, megaton+type city-killers) to do some bigtime damage on the Xiticix? They don't look to be the type of species to have specific defenses against that sort of attack, unlike tolkeen (rifting the missiles away/blocking them with magic fields). Do they even have anything that could reliably stop a coalition aircraft that can make mach2 and 60000ft? Wouldn't be hard to drop a couple nukes and then go in for the mop-up as far as I can see. Though, like I said, I haven't got the xiticix book....

The CS has a strict no-nukes policy. They will only use them as a last resort if they feel their existance is threatened. They don't see the Xiticix as they level of a threat.

I believe it was in the xiticix book that stated that Nukes are somewhat useless against the bugs. What you see on the surface is only like 10% of the entire bug city. The majority of the bug world exists undergrown in caves, and other structures so basically, a nuke would simply only aggitate the bugs. It was also stated in the CS Navy book that they have developed bombs that don't have quite the fallout as older bombs, so they are much more apt to use them.

[Lenwen]

The more an more that I read some of these posts an reread all the archie books .. I am personally leaning twords Archie Dominating the N.A. continent . He has the resources to take out the CS especially if he waits til they go on thier little temper Tantrum again . He has the military size force equal to what the CS has for manpower . He can outproduce every CS city combined by himself he has Mechanoid Tech , CS Skelbot designs , I'm going to bet that after hundreds of years of fighting the Atlantean forces he knows how to utilize military tactics too .. call it what you want but When the CS goes up against the FoM ( after all it is going to happen we as the readers simply just dont know when ) He could easily wait for the outcome then launch his very own war against the CS or virtually anyone he wants an in the N.A. continent no one outside the CS(for now) can do anthing about it reallly ..

-Lenwen.

P.S.
Shemarrian Nation book is going to be an eye opener for those that just want to ingore what archie has for a powerbase that is already out there that is for sure lol

[dark brandon]

I don't see Archie working to bring about CS's fall. Instead I see archie userping the power the proseks have, in some form or another.

I don't see this action happening until archie has somehow defeated atlantis. While he wants to help humans (now wishes to rule over them) he doesn't want to lose his minions again. So, while archie may eventually be a contender, until atlantis is no longer a threat he'd have very little reason to bring about the CS destruction.

[Lenwen]

I don't see Archie working to bring about CS's fall. Instead I see archie userping the power the proseks have, in some form or another.

I don't see this action happening until archie has somehow defeated atlantis. While he wants to help humans (now wishes to rule over them) he doesn't want to lose his minions again. So, while archie may eventually be a contender, until atlantis is no longer a threat he'd have very little reason to bring about the CS destruction.

True'er words where never typed ...
in my humble opinion Archie alone has the ability to destabalize the Coalition like no one in North America . Secrecy , Glitterboys , Mechanoid Tech , Skelebots tech , Millions upon Millions of already placed Bots an borgs out in the world , Millions of HUMAN Troops ( if an when he needs them ) this is the one being I truely believe will dominate N.A. the more an more I think about it ..

Even if he does not go after the CS .. They are an expansionist Empire . They will eventualy try to bite some one with bigger badder bots an weapons an what not ..its the way of the world ( there is always some one tougher stronger smarter an faster then you out there ) It is only a matter of time when the CS takes on FoM an we see a TRUE power struggle .. The CS against Tolkeen was not even a war if you ask me more of a local Squirmesh .. Then again every military attack the CS has done to date was against a VASTLY infiorior City/state . We have Yet to TRUELY see the Military might of the CS in action against a military that is on equal Footing . ( if I am wrong pleace correct me )

An as always this is just my 2 cp's .

-Lenwen.

[Kryzbyn]

I'm entering this debate late but here's my 2 cents:
Atlantis is a non-issue. Splynn is enjoying the power he gets from being in control of a interdemensional nexus point. He will not start, nor allow any major conflicts that would threaten the re-disappearance of the ley lines.
He knows global war brought them. He won't risk them going away.
He would quelsh any major world-spanning conflict before it began.
Any threat to Atlantis itself would be crushed mercilessly, but I don't think he would chase the aggressors back to thier home. He would utterly destroy as many of the forces sent against him as possible, and leave the few who can get away do so as awarning to others. "I will not be trifled with".

The CS presence in NA helps cement Splynn's power base. They clean up any messes that get out of hand.
The Tolkeen thing was no biggy. Let the humans fight each other! As long as China, Japan, or the NGR isnt brought into it...let it be.
As a being and as the ruler of Atlantis he is afforded the title "Top of the food chain" on Earth. He will not allow anything to upset this.
He will not risk losing Earth.

He is already the de-facto ruler of NA..and the rest of the bloody planet.

[Lenwen]

Maybe I need to read that worldbook, but what's to stop anyone from developing a few good Nuclear/Antimatter Missiles (the big, megaton+type city-killers) to do some bigtime damage on the Xiticix? They don't look to be the type of species to have specific defenses against that sort of attack, unlike tolkeen (rifting the missiles away/blocking them with magic fields). Do they even have anything that could reliably stop a coalition aircraft that can make mach2 and 60000ft? Wouldn't be hard to drop a couple nukes and then go in for the mop-up as far as I can see. Though, like I said, I haven't got the xiticix book....

The CS has a strict no-nukes policy. They will only use them as a last resort if they feel their existance is threatened. They don't see the Xiticix as they level of a threat.

Dident the CS unleash a whole bunch of nuc's on tolkeen in the war ?

[Lenwen]

A..Tolkeen standing army numbers in the Final Siege book had them with a standing army of roughly 220,000.......not including civilians....

B[/b..]City of Brass with all their splintered towns surrounding them barely number to 100k if I remember correctly, don't have the book with me, and that 100k includes civilian population..............and Dweomner section clearly states they would not aid nor help Duncson if he were to fight the CS.

[b]C..Aftermath also clearly states even though CS suffured many losses with Tolkeen, they are not weak and their resources still are good........while many believe they have dwindled. If FoM were to attack, they would be crushed so fast it wouldn't even be funny........they're split up into too many factions

D..FQ would most likely send a field army or two in order to get in good graces with teh CS, considering they even fought those 6000 or so demons for them in the Tolkeen treachery already.

E..Glitterboys ans Sams fighting side by side..........forget about it, FoM is done.

F[/b...]Not to mention Tolkeen was a lot more prepared for war than FoM is now, Tolkeen was making war machines roughly a decade before the official conflict while FoM is barely getting "put back together" by Duncson.

[b]A answer ..220'000 Tolkeen Troops vrs the Million and a half the CS sent in .. they won threw wieght of numbers alone .. not overwhelming tactics or overwhelming technological supioriorty..

B answer.. I agree nearly 100% with your statment .

C answer ..half right .. the CS remains THEE power on the NA continent .. but Aftermath clearly states thier hurting more now then ever .. after 405,000 lives lost majority of those being human soilders an over a million skelebots destroyed thier hurting more then you want to admit but not as bad as others would like to believe as welll ...

D answer.. Cs vrs FoM would be a repeat of the Tolkeen incident as I call it .. an yes FQ would more then likly toss in some soilders but not cause they as you said want to get in good with the CS .. They do not need the cs on any lvl what so ever .. Else they would still be a CS state ...

E and F answers ..I 100% wholly agree with ..

[Lenwen]

A answer ..220'000 Tolkeen Troops vrs the Million and a half the CS sent in .. they won threw wieght of numbers alone .. not overwhelming tactics or overwhelming technological supioriorty..

B answer.. I agree nearly 100% with your statment .

C answer ..half right .. the CS remains THEE power on the NA continent .. but Aftermath clearly states thier hurting more now then ever .. after 405,000 lives lost majority of those being human soilders an over a million skelebots destroyed thier hurting more then you want to admit but not as bad as others would like to believe as welll ...

D answer.. Cs vrs FoM would be a repeat of the Tolkeen incident as I call it .. an yes FQ would more then likly toss in some soilders but not cause they as you said want to get in good with the CS .. They do not need the cs on any lvl what so ever .. Else they would still be a CS state ...

E and F answers ..I 100% wholly agree with ..

It was a million and a half total, not at one time.........by the final siege they had already suffered over half million skelebots.....

Final siege numbers were 320k troops, 100k dodg boys, 312k skelebots.....plus Jerichos 308k.......

And not they have a whole new batch of seasoned warriors who have fought supernatural/magic, and now if logic kicks in they also will make more kinetic weapons firing Ramjet rounds since they've got a new contract with them (MercOps) and all these mages with invulnerability will no longer be so invulnerable.

What you just said is exactly what AFTERMATH states, that people believe the CS is hurting now more than ever when they are not........look under the CS section........wish I had the book with me...

OUt of those 405k lost, 100k were lost in the Xiticix hive........so for almost every CS soldier killed a Tolkenite died also(exluding Jerichos men picked of by Xiticix). IF you think about all the tolkenites that died in the Sorcerers Revenge.......it clearly states it devestated their forces just as much as the CS's, all they really accomplished was pushing the CS back, I believe the book states Tolkeen almost suffered up to 50% casualties themselves.......... So with that in mind, it was roughly a 1:1 death ratio.

CS vs FoM would not be a repeat, CS intellegince has pulled out so much info from this past war that past mistakes will not happen, not to mention that the CS is also perfecting making psionic implants to give regular people psionic powers and giving them nega psychic abilities(psyscape)..........almsot a spell casters worst nightmare.............unless KS out of the blue hands the FoM a Magic bubble forcefield, and another poor yurick to predict the exact dates of the bombing like he did with Tolkeen, FoM is done.

Any way you look at it the Coalition won threw numbers ..
NOT overwhelming firepower ...
NOT supiorior Tactic's ...
NOT better trained troops ...
Flat out numbers ..

General Jericho smartly RAN from defeat .. he knew his forces would be destroyed if caught like they would have been in sourcers revenge so he retreated into the hivelands .. taking his chances there instead of certain doom against the tolkeen defenders .. The books flat out say that my friend .

The CS sent out a military invasion that had more troops then the entire Tolkeen had citizens ...

It was numbers man numbers ..

[dark brandon]

Any way you look at it the Coalition won threw numbers ..
NOT overwhelming firepower ...
NOT supiorior Tactic's ...
NOT better trained troops ...
Flat out numbers ..

General Jericho smartly RAN from defeat .. he knew his forces would be destroyed if caught like they would have been in sourcers revenge so he retreated into the hivelands .. taking his chances there instead of certain doom against the tolkeen defenders .. The books flat out say that my friend .

The CS sent out a military invasion that had more troops then the entire Tolkeen had citizens ...

It was numbers man numbers ..

Actually, now CS has a whole boatload of "better trained troops". Most were green at the start of the war...by the wars end, most were probably pretty well educated.

[Lenwen]

Any way you look at it the Coalition won threw numbers ..
NOT overwhelming firepower ...
NOT supiorior Tactic's ...
NOT better trained troops ...
Flat out numbers ..

General Jericho smartly RAN from defeat .. he knew his forces would be destroyed if caught like they would have been in sourcers revenge so he retreated into the hivelands .. taking his chances there instead of certain doom against the tolkeen defenders .. The books flat out say that my friend .

The CS sent out a military invasion that had more troops then the entire Tolkeen had citizens ...

It was numbers man numbers ..

Actually, now CS has a whole boatload of "better trained troops". Most were green at the start of the war...by the wars end, most were probably pretty well educated.

I agree with you 100% here my friend . The war most definitly gave the average CS Grunt ( who was involved with the war which comes out to something like 1 in 3 CS Grunts if you go by the numbers posted on the boards about the CS Human troops numbers ) anything from 2 to 4 lvls of "advancement" as it were lol

[Dustin Fireblade]

Any way you look at it the Coalition won threw numbers ..
NOT overwhelming firepower ...
NOT supiorior Tactic's ...
NOT better trained troops ...
Flat out numbers ..

General Jericho smartly RAN from defeat .. he knew his forces would be destroyed if caught like they would have been in sourcers revenge so he retreated into the hivelands .. taking his chances there instead of certain doom against the tolkeen defenders .. The books flat out say that my friend .

The CS sent out a military invasion that had more troops then the entire Tolkeen had citizens ...

It was numbers man numbers ..

Actually, now CS has a whole boatload of "better trained troops". Most were green at the start of the war...by the wars end, most were probably pretty well educated.

I agree with you 100% here my friend . The war most definitly gave the average CS Grunt ( who was involved with the war which comes out to something like 1 in 3 CS Grunts if you go by the numbers posted on the boards about the CS Human troops numbers ) anything from 2 to 4 lvls of "advancement" as it were lol

Yeah as I recall, CS sent the bulk of their veterans against Free Quebec, and enlisted Burb non-citizens to fight Tolkeen. In any event, the CS should have one of the more experienced military forces on NA now.

[Lenwen]

Any way you look at it the Coalition won threw numbers ..
NOT overwhelming firepower ...
NOT supiorior Tactic's ...
NOT better trained troops ...
Flat out numbers ..

General Jericho smartly RAN from defeat .. he knew his forces would be destroyed if caught like they would have been in sourcers revenge so he retreated into the hivelands .. taking his chances there instead of certain doom against the tolkeen defenders .. The books flat out say that my friend .

The CS sent out a military invasion that had more troops then the entire Tolkeen had citizens ...

It was numbers man numbers ..

Actually, now CS has a whole boatload of "better trained troops". Most were green at the start of the war...by the wars end, most were probably pretty well educated.

I agree with you 100% here my friend . The war most definitly gave the average CS Grunt ( who was involved with the war which comes out to something like 1 in 3 CS Grunts if you go by the numbers posted on the boards about the CS Human troops numbers ) anything from 2 to 4 lvls of "advancement" as it were lol

Yeah as I recall, CS sent the bulk of their veterans against Free Quebec, and enlisted Burb non-citizens to fight Tolkeen. In any event, the CS should have one of the more experienced military forces on NA now.

Well for thier standing army yes and no ..
For ONE as previously stated they will have knolodge fighting the supernatural ... not regular joe from so an so's army ..

The Standing army that was sent to FQ's door step wont have as much an increase in thier overall lvls considering the book stated they were Extreamly hesitent to fight each other an they only had small squirmeshes instead of the giant huge pitched battles of a real war ... thusly the Vets that come back from the FQ warfront wont have the increase as the Tolkeen Warfront Vets will have had ...

Not to mention the War with Tolkeen was how long ( duration wise ??)
Vrs
The FQ war which was how long ? (Duration wise ?)

[Dustin Fireblade]

I think both wars were fairly close in duration, ie from 105 PA to 109 PA.

Anyway page 44 CWC mentions half of the CS soldiers are career, with many veterans levels 5 to 9 (12 to 24 years service). These were the soldiers sent to fight FQ I guess. If the soldiers on the FQ front gained anything I would say just one or two levels at most, so I definately agree with you there. (Man it sure would be nice to see a BattleTech style Field Manual of CS units with their experience ratings!)

But these soldiers were also sent to the Tolkeen front once peace was made with FQ, so they made it in for the Final Siege.

[Lenwen]

I think both wars were fairly close in duration, ie from 105 PA to 109 PA.

Anyway page 44 CWC mentions half of the CS soldiers are career, with many veterans levels 5 to 9 (12 to 24 years service). These were the soldiers sent to fight FQ I guess. If the soldiers on the FQ front gained anything I would say just one or two levels at most, so I definately agree with you there. (Man it sure would be nice to see a BattleTech style Field Manual of CS units with their experience ratings!)

But these soldiers were also sent to the Tolkeen front once peace was made with FQ, so they made it in for the Final Siege.

Aye I personally think that those Xp'ed Vets in combination with the sheer wieght of numbers in CS military sent there is what finally won .. I believe in Aftermath it flat out says that the CS won with numbers plain an simple too .. I'll reread that section an letcha know .. for sure ..

[Dustin Fireblade]

Yeah it was definately a number advantage in the end, having some extra experienced fighters on hand was just gravy for the CS.

[Lenwen]

I think at the end the CS had a numerical advantave of 4 or 5 to 1 tolkeenite ...
After thier flank fell to Gen Holmes it was litterally only an amount of time before they fell as it was ...

[rc_brooks]

I think the intention is to keep NA pretty well in turmoil. While Atlantis may never dominate NA, I do think a "surgical" trimming of human power in NA would likely be permitted and probably pretty likely. I doubt that even the CS states will stay as allied as they are now. When regime's change, so do alliances. Some for the better, some for the worse. And whose to say what other entities are just now testing the waters. While Naruni are limited, they are still exploring. There may be others doing the same.

Of course, I wouldn't expect the CS to always have its NO magic, DB, etc... policies. Fact of the matter is that all those things they "hate" are just too effective. Further, there are ever growing tragic stories from D-Bees, magic users and the like. People are nothing if not sympathetic. And honestly, when faced with all sorts of horrible options, allying with creatures that at the least, don't want your death... is a good thing. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Even in real history... for just ONE example the allies, allied with Russia, and let's be honest Stalin wasn't the best of people. No, I think the war with Tolkeen was actually the death knell of human supremacy policies for the CS. In the end it will make them stronger. However, threats will never cease. Eventually more galactically experienced races will arrive.

No, I don't think anyone is going to let NA become dominated for a long time to come.

[runebeo]

Hard for a destroyed nation to rule. I think the Tolkeen series was good, I'm not saying great but face it it happened and nearly every book since talks about Tolkeen's defeat. It sets up the future meta plot. Kevin knows what he's doing and its his world were playing in. Its not like theres no other magic nations for the CS to pick on in the future and next time maybe the others will help them out. CS is always going to dominate North America thats just the way that it is! I rather the Republicans took over myself, but that would change too much of the N.A. setting so I don't think it will happen.

[runebeo]

I don't want to criticize your game, but your GM must be playing the CS troops are mindless & unskilled pawns if they offer your group no challenge. Fist off In many many ways CS far out gun Tolkeen mages in sheer range & firepower, tech, air & ground speed, numbers when including Skellbots and in a lesser way surveillance & recon. The CS have psi-stalkers and dog boy to detect mages, supernatural creatures & psychics. Psi-Battalion has psi-stalkers, dog boys, burster, zappers, mind melters, psi-nullifiers, Nega-psychics and maybe even some Psi-Ghosts & Psi-Slayers in their ranks who were trained to be a secret weapon in the war. Is your GM using them or accounting for up to 25% of the CS troops having some psionic powers. A mage has a big problem dealing with a master psychic with bio-manipulation: mute or a facing psi-nullifiers or Nega-pscychics. Last thing the CS has dealt with mages for over a century and have trained their men to have some understanding of it and be able counter some aspects of it, like don't believe every thing you see or switch tactics if energy don't seem to be harming them, never fight a mage on or near a ley line, remember that mages have a limited P.P.E. pool plus spells take energy and most spells only last a few minutes so don't panic. Have the GM give some thought to why the CS has squashed so many mages in the past. It sure helps that being in vehicles, giant robots and power armor makes them immune to nearly all spells. The CS is one of my group's main enemies too, but in our game even with our nice mix of Naruni weaponry & tech, Glitter Boy, SAMAS, Splicer tech, super psionics, demon minions, iron golems, magic & magic tattoos, we have never really solidly defeated even a medium size group of CS troops without take some losses.

[Balabanto]

Yeah, in my game people are like "The Magic Zone? No problem!" "The New West? No problem?" "A Coalition Death Squad? HEAD FOR THE HILLS!"

[runebeo]

Yep! Cybernetic hearing implants, thermo imaging and rail gun round do cut down on some of the mage's most used advantages. Remember most mages don't take prowl as a skill and rely on invisibility and other stealth spells. Got love tech, its just too bad they made Techno-Wizard's spell casting so reduced & feeble or they would just dominate the setting otherwise. Is anyone else annoyed that the spell Invulnerability grants such a high bonus to save vs psionic? In palladium fantasy the psi bonus is much lower, this only goes to show Rift psychics should gain bonuses to psychic strength like spell strength does for mages. Shouldn't it be harder to resist a psionic attack from a high level psychic than a first level one? Sorry I got rambling lol.

[Lenwen]

Who will end up dominating North America on RIFTS Earth?

Who ever Lord Splynncryth .. "Allows" .. to dominate .. North America

[runebeo]

And...as aftermath stated, they goofed. No one is saying they're the perfect nation, and they can make mistakes. Aftermath also stated they have an unlimited trade agreement with NGR as well.

which does beg the question of what the NGR gets out of this trade agreement, hopefully Triax 2 will answer it. What the coalition got is obvious war campaign made that plain, but what does the NGR get?

Triax is going to keep the very best stuff for itself. I can't wait to see their new tech, you know its going to be killer stuff. I bet some of the stuff in War Campaign with modifications to annoy the Gargoyle Nation like Slugger missiles and uranium rounds.

[dark brandon]

And...as aftermath stated, they goofed. No one is saying they're the perfect nation, and they can make mistakes. Aftermath also stated they have an unlimited trade agreement with NGR as well.

which does beg the question of what the NGR gets out of this trade agreement, hopefully Triax 2 will answer it. What the coalition got is obvious war campaign made that plain, but what does the NGR get?

Motives of the NGR Pg 19 & 20 World book 5.

1) To send a very loud and clear message that they do not stand alone. Even a trade agreement with CS should give their enemies pause. The CS is famous for their military superiority and hatred of non-humans. To have such a technologically advanced military powerhouse at their side would make the NGR seem even more dangerous and undefeatable. They hope such an alliance would shake the confidence of their enemies to such a degree that some might give up the fight and direct their attention to more vulnerable targets elsewhere in Europe.

2) Establish a supply and support line with a powerful and reliable ally. A lengthy campaign against the enemy will deplete the available resources of the NGR and Triax. An alliance with CS would replenish dwindling supplies and keep the morale of the people high. The CS would be especially helpful in providing food, cybernetic and robot components, raw materials and medical aid.

3) To unite two human superpowers in their struggle to reclaim the earth for humankind. although the NGR has not exhibited the CS's penchant for expansion through conquest (mainly because of powerful enemy forces and constant turmoil) they are firm believers in human superiority. They wholeheartedly embrace the CS's efforts to eradicate supernatural beings and monstrous life forms from the planet. Once the NGR has crushed their enemies they will support the CS's campaigns of conquest and genocide in NA. As a matter of fact, the NGR sees the xiticix in the same light as the gargoyles: a growing empire of monsters that threatens humankind and must be destroyed.

What specifically triax gets

4) Virtually unrestricted exportation of food, raw materials, and component parts from the CS to the NGR.