TW's aside,"the lunacy of a mage ever using any technol

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts is a world of endless possibilities, and the only time it loses flavor is when people think that a certain class has to limit itself to only one possibility.

and if you want to do such, there are PLENTY of Magic-using classes that do so.

Was the irony there deliberate?

Yes, it was - those classes are made SPECIFICALLY to deal with both magic AND technology - thus are excluded from the arguuement

The irony is that I had just said that "Rifts is a world of endless possibilities, and the only time it loses flavor is when people think that a certain class has to limit itself to only one possibility."
So responding that you can pick a different class just misses the point in such a way as to illustrate it.

This is how people behave.
They do what's easiest, or what seems easiest.
It's that way in the real world, so it should be that way in the game world.

Believe it or not, that's not the case
if that were the case:
noone would give money to charity - it's easier to just keep it

Not if you feel guilt from not giving, then it's easier to give the money than to deal with the guilt.
Not if you believe that those causes are necessary, because then it's something that has to be done, and giving money is easier than donating time or becoming a charity worker yourself.

Everyone would end their education after Highschool - College isn't easy

For a heck of a lot of people, it's a lot easier than the real world.

everyone would drive automatic - no shifting needed

I learned to drive stick, so it's easier for me to drive stick than automatic.
Also, it's easier to push-start a stick than an automatic.

everyone would pay someoneelse to fix something - it's easier than doing it yourself

Unless you know what you're doing, and you have the tools and time.
In which case it's easier just to do it yourself.

Also (IG), everyone would be a Witch as oppose to any other magic class, because it's the "easiest" way to learn magic.

For most people, selling your soul isn't an easy decision to make.

And finally, Magic can be just as effective, if not moreso, just by putting some thought into it.

Same could be said about tech.

Yes, often the ranges are much better than spells, but really, how often does combat take place at maximum range?

Depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign in question.

Even if it does take place at maximum range, you can easily close range, again using superior armor to make up the difference

If you have the right spells, and if you can traverse the terrain, and if the enemy is stationary, etc.

True, but really, why not just have them start out that way - it's actually cheaper IG

Which way?

I have personally never gone through the majority of my PPE in combat.
But then, appearantly I have short combats

Or few combats per day, with time to rest inbetween.
Or both.

Just one question - why are you in multiple full-scale combats per day, for days on end?[/quote]

Depends on the campaign.

Given how sparsely populated RIFTS is rumored to be, you shouldn't be hitting an enemy with every stone's throw

Sometimes we go for weeks/months without incident, then get into a conflict (or series of conflicts) that lasts for days.
And sometimes we're not on Rifts Earth.

maybe this is the root of the arguement: How prevelant is combat really?

Varies per group and per campaign.
Sometimes we have combat be very common, sometimes we don't use it at all.

All of those things can mitigate some concerns for people who have them, and for people who want to deal with the downsides of each (Fire globes are great, but bulky, for example).
For others, a gun's going to be the better option.

Fire-Globes are no more bulky than a grenade, if that, and certainly weigh less.

I don't think that the weight is mentioned, but they're the size of a grapefruit, which is about 2x+ the size of a grenade.
Go to the grocery store and buy a half-dozen grapefruits, then carry them around with you for a while.
And that's just for 6 attacks worth.

Also, in terms of availability, Energy Sphere can be learned by any 2nd level Shifter for free.

A lot of your arguments seem pretty dependent on the mage being a Shifter.

the others I see as often learned spells - why WOULDN'T a magic-user seek to learn these?

Why WOULDN'T anybody seek to get a million dollars?
Wanting isn't the same as getting.

As for the gun being the better option, I disagree. Give me any comparable scenario, and you can go through it without a gun just as easily.

Comparable scenario to what?

And if you have a gun, then you either have a good weapon even when you're out of PPE, or you have a good weapon you can use without depleting your PPE reserve.

would this not qualify as the "as a last resort" mention?

Hm.
Point there.

as to the second part, be mindful of your PPE and plan accordingly

Best way to do that is by not using PPE at every chance you get, because you never know what's coming your way next.

ASure, IF you have it.
If not, then not, and for most mages it'd be "not."

True of the Call Staff, not so much for the Create Magic Scroll - again, why WOULDN'T a caster seek to learn this spell?

Addressed in the other post.

[Killer Cyborg]

So, uh, not many other situations where magic is blatantly superior to technology?
Does Sustain protect against skin contact hazards? Some nerve agents work on a skin contact basis, but you'd need much more than a gas mask for those worst-case scenarios anyway.

At risk of violating my topic charter, I feel TWizards were created for more than just a balance of magic and technology. I feel they were created because magitech rocks.
But that's for another topic.

Well, what other situations were you talking about?

how about the below comparisons

Skelebots vs Warrior Horde (Scroll)
minimal investure of resources (a scroll - PPE is renewable)
can get say 200 soldiers at a moments notice
no need to feed or care for them
slightly less MDC - but easy to replace - one could make at least 1 scroll per day, if not more, using Time Hole
count as magical sources of damage

You're comparing common assault bots to a SPELL OF LEGEND, combined with a 10th level spell.
That's a great option for maybe 5 people on Rifts Earth, but not for anybody else.

Hover Cycle vs Phatom Mount
needs no maintenance
pilots itself
can never be lost or stolen
can act on it's own (IIRC)

-more easily destroyed (at least at lower levels)
-disappears if you go more than 40' from it.
-Only lasts 10 min. per level, which is fine for short trips, but not so good for serious travel.
-Only travels 45 mph

ATV vs Fury Beatle (acquired through Tame Beast)
Has more MDC
can carry more and pull more
cheaper to acquire / replace
better manueverability
inconspicuous in many environments (does not call attention to the presence of travelers)

-travels in a zig-zag pattern instead of a straight line
-affected by mind-affecting powers/spells and Horror Factor
-very conspicuous in many environments
-must be fed

Hireling vs Golem
typically more MDC, and it regenerates
little initial investment - stays with your forever (until destroyed)
Supernatural Strength
Completely loyal
Several Immunities

Hey, Golems rock.

But you should be comparing Golems to Robots, and then things don't come out so much in the mage's favor, except for the lower cost and the regeneration (which are pretty important factors)

EBA vs Invincible Armor
higher MDC, which regenerates
half damage from some sources (IIRC)
will absorb ALL of the remaining amount of damage form an attack that overcomes the armor - yes, those 10 LRM Nuclear Multi-warhead missiles you just hit me with destroyed my armor, but I'm fine and unharmed

Thanks to the GI-Joe rule, all armor does that to an extent.
It might not take the 10 LRMs, but how often does that come up?

Higher MDC? Only for 4th level mages or higher.

Downsides:
-Limited duration. A 4th level mage only gets to wear the armor for 12 minutes before it goes away.
-The bulk of the Invincible Armor give penalties to prowl, climb, etc. Better than some EBA, but worse than others.

Radio vs Magic Pigeon + Distant Voice
MP
Completely Secure - no signal to intercept
superior range to any radio - it will get there, eventually
great for Site to Site communications for reports
DV
No need for equipment - can talk with whoever you can see
nearly untraceable (damn dogboys) means of communication

Distant Voice only has a range of 500', unless you have line of sight. Radio beats that.
Magic Pigeon is great if you're competing with the postal service, but not so much with radio. Can't really have a good conversation when the message only travels at 30 mph.

Missiles vs Deflect / Targeted deflection
Can defeat the "4-missiles always hit" rule - and grants you a bonus doing so
Most blast radius are too small to even touch the user for half damage
bonuses to parry typically higher than bonuses to strike for Missiles, and you get +4 from the spell itself

Not a bad spell, unless you deflect the attack into allies or bystanders.

Laser-Resistant Armor vs Impervious to Energy
cannot be overcome by variable-frequency rifles
applies to Plasma, Ion, and Particle beam weapons
Not immediately noticeable

Yup.
But laser resistant armor isn't exactly a big deal, which is why only GBs have it; it's not worth the cost.

Only upside is that you don't have to know the attack is coming to reduce the damage.

Brewing vs Water to Wine
instant alcohol - no waiting
only water needed

Only wine is created.
Which sucks, if what you're wanting is mead, or ale, or beer, or scotch, or whiskey, or tequila, or any other type of alcohol.
And it's only poor to average in quality, unless you're really high level
(Though I am now going to make an NPC Mage/Bartender who uses this spell!)

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't mean to be rude, or anything, but I can honestly say I started mentally skipping over these quote-fest posts several pages ago. I'm sure there are good points in there, and stuff, but I just can't make myself read them.

Strive for concision and readability, or prepare to be ignored more.

Hey, ignore away!
I'd do it myself, if I weren't actually in the conversation.

I'm just glad we haven't driven everybody from the thread entirely.

[Killer Cyborg]

So... it sounds like we could pretty much agree that it's not insane for a mage to use technology other than as a last resort?
I think we can all agree that the mean of magi should favor magic over technology for many situations just because they enjoy it. Hell, next time I play a mage, s/he's likely to use Telekinesis to get a beer from the fridge once a day.
I'm sure we can agree that some magi might even have that two-dimensional "oh god no, I'm allergic to electricity" mindset wherein technology is, to said person, religiously and philosophically untenable. (I would expect a lower survival ratio for such magi.)
But both of you have made arguments wherein, perhaps especially depending on the campaign, technology just works better for a given purpose even when a magic spell could be daisy chained or McGyvered into effect. And certainly there are situations where magic is just more practical than technology.

This all seems to back up my original, poorly argued point, but modified now; not all characters are pragmatic. If your character is a pragmatist, go with what works best for the situation*. If your character is an idealist, well... that's another matter.

* Fact is, magic works very well for many situations. A great many. Maybe instead of hanging out the window, you should just jump out and cast Phantom Mount or something.

I don't know that we would really agree to that. But the opposite notion has been throughly dispelled, the myth that a mage MUST use technology in the Rifts world to survive. A good player with a decent collection of spells and access to certain high level spells via a guild or brotherhood, is more than capable of living their entire existence without ever having to depend on technology as anything other than decoration.

Dude, there are people who live their entire lives without MDC capability at all... so that's no real shock.

Not all the spells you'll need have been put into canon yet, like I use a variant of the Calling spell to replace radio communications for my mages.

Kind of negates the point then.
Because I'll just counter with "Not all of the reasons why mages must depend on magic are canon yet, like all those monsters who are impervious to magic, but take double-damage from technology."

But all the basics for a technology free existence are there. If you have a bad GM, that doesn't give you access to any more spells than the bare minimum, then by all means it will be 8th or 9th level before you can approach that level of independence from technology if ever at all. But it's really just a reflection of a poor GM, than a limitation of the game itself.

This is where we disagree; I think it's a poor GM who coddles his players and gives them high-level spells just so that the mages can indulge in some sort of anti-tech fetish.

[Malakai]

OK, i'll try for the concise post then:

One thing I think is really setting the difference in viewpoints is gaming experience:

KC, you mentioned that most magic-users are levels 1-5? How do you figure? Not everyone starts off at level 1 in thier games. and even if they do, it's not that hard to rise in levels. as an example:

Skill use: 10 - 25 (10 average)
Clever & Futile idea: 25 - 50 (4 average)
Judgement / power: 25 - 50 (4 average)
playing in character when it would be easier not to: 25 - 50 (yes, I had to emphasize this one ) (2 average)
Clever & Useful: 25 - 100 (2 average)
avoiding unneccessary violence: 50 - 100 (2 average)
kindness / mercy / compassion: 50 - 100 (4 average)
dedcutive reasoning: 50 - 100 (2 average)
heroic action: 50 - 100 (1 average)
quick thinking: 100 (2 average)
TOTAL: 1,050 - 2,050 average per game, NOT counting enemies defeated or heroic actions that save the lives of others

With a weekly game seesion: even at the lowest, you would be a 5th level LLW in 4 months, starting from 0 XP.

Second, as to the availability of certain spells - it says there's only a 10% chance of say, Talisman or Create Magic Scroll, being available - well, then by that reasoning 10% of magic proprietors KNOW the spell. If it's not at the shop your at - check another one.
As to the price - 500,000 to 1 million credits. wow - that does seem pretty expensive . . . wait, how much does a PA cost? around 1 million for a Flying Titan or Samson. What about that Nuclear-powered ATV that everyone seems to drive around in? 500,000. what about that Titan Combat Robot that the other character STARTS OUT WITH? 24 MILLION CREDITS. Heck, even you typical weapons and Armor are worth about 25,000 apiece. And were you not the one mentioning carrying around a lot of loot to sell off?

So, the moneys there and the spell, while maybe not in every town, is certainly available some where - seems like a good reason to travel if you ask me.

As to the "More than one spell on a magic scroll" - I think that's a carry-over from Palladium Fantasy, but I'm not too sure - I'll take a look when I have my books in front of me.

Also a matter of setting is the "ambush" - you said you get ambushed pretty frequently - why? do you follow some pre-laid out path or trade route? Do you advertise you position all the time? Do you travel in open fields constantly?
And, more importantly, have you angered THAT MANY PEOPLE that an ambush is around every corner?

Yes, in some environments, you have some fighting every day, but in the majority of cases, I would think that a fight or ambush every 3 days is in the upper limits of realistic - giving you plenty of time to regain spent PPE

As for being able to parry for others, it is official - you can, though it costs you an action (again, don't have my books in front of me right now). thus, if you have a "shield bearer" (as it were), they could parry for you while you cast. And how is it useless against ranged attacks?. as to having summoned creatures - there's plenty of spells for it, though Mystic Warrior would probably be the most likely.

You think people don't dodge? Why WOULDN'T they? OK, so they use up an action - they still don't get hit. And if thier goal is to escape, that's probably the best way to do so.

As to magic spells that aren't in the RIFTS BoM - sorry to say, but it didn't have everything, and newer books come out all the time. Heck, they even forget to put OLD spells into the new books (this is what happened to Teleport Self - it was forgotten and placed in the Megaverse Builder, along with Expel Demons & Deevils). And again, same could be said of a lot of tech items - rare outside of one particular local.

as to recovering PPE, is was refering to the cost of one casting, which lasts 1 round per level, so by level 5, your probabnly not casting it more than once per combat anyways

Yes, Shifters linked with a God of Magic do NOT count as most mages - I'll grant yuo that - but they are one of the core classes - so there's bound to be a good percentage of them - and unlike Tech, all they need to do is share the knowledge to pass it on - you need manufacturing facilities for Tech.

What would you say to two mages that traded spells of equal or about equal levels - would that be a "Monty Haul" world? and before it comes out as far as cheating, this is between a PC and an NPC. remeber that since RUE, low level characters can get access to much higher-level spells, which in turn can be traded for other spells

on to the range issue - then what are you talking about? if they can shoot me, then there's a straight line between my and the shooter. I've already proven that spell armor can take the hits - so how would this not apply?

Because your shooter is mobile? - so he's firing wild - heck, he'll be lucky to hit me. is he defending something? well, he can't stray too far away then ,or he won't be able to do his job. and in a wooded area, how do you expect them to make full use if thier range? cause if they aren't it only means that the mage is that much closer to his target, where more of his spells are able to be used immediately

What's the other option? in regards to the 1/2 damage ending the fight quicker.

aside from range, how do they not?

the number I said was HALF A DOZEN - 6. so, what do you suggest? 3? that seems fare enough - so, which 3? Personally, I have Shield, Sword, and Targeting / Throwing - all aplicable for his spells (and a TW shield) - let me say that WP Shield mixed with a TW Shield of Deflection will serve you better than many other WPs. Sword can often be used for spells, such as Lightblade, as can taregting and throwing - love those Fire globes.
but after that, more tends to take away from your possibilities - hence my half a dozen number

as to it being pragmatic - let's see which are more pragmatic to take
Targeting / Throwing - use for several spells, as well as grenades, vibro-blades (for throwing), magic throwing irons (or similar items), or even to play a mean game of darts
Sword: useful for both spell, TW, Psychic, and Tech swords, AND useul for both Defense and Offense
Shield - OK, so this one is more limited than the others, but when you consider the spells that can go into a TW shield, it makes it worth it

now for the modern WPs - they can all be used for TW and tech items, but not for spells. they can only be used offensively – they don’t seem that pragmatic, considering the above, at least for spell casters

True, I did agree about the laser distancers and such – that was not what I was referring to. In regards to the time where Tech is superior to magic in combat, we have fundamentally different views of the setting –

You say that most spell casters are levels 1-5, higher-level spells are super-rare and nearly impossible to get, that you are constantly fighting, every day, and often more than once a day.

I say that most spell casters are mid-level range (5 – 10), higher-level spells are more readily available and within reach than you do, that combat is not a daily occurrence, and that combat does not happen multiples times a day.

In regards to the game balance argument – you meant that as a statement? In RIFTS? Even going on that, look at the XP charts again – pretty close all around, whether you’re a magic-user or not (dragons and other’s of their power-level not included). So obviously we can see that they don’t take significantly longer to level up, just to learn the basics of their class – which include the ability to cast magic

Try playing a magic-user that doesn’t use tech weapons or vehicles – see how hard, or not so hard, it is.

As for the articles, I can see your point, but don’t particularly agree with most of it. Yes, charaters are meant to be individuals first, and their class second (if that), but when you consider that they’ve spent the better part of their life (up to the point of beginning gameplay) training in their field, it tends to shape them and their outlook. Yes there are those that train and study intensely on one thing, while favoring something else, but I see THOSE PEOPLE ase the exception rather than the rule. I think it’s best to think back into history for examples of OCCs than today, and for the following reasons –
Today, people get a much more rounded education than they did back then, (or that they do in RIFTS), and the pressing need to do something is not as great this time, as it was then, simply because it is more common and acceptable to switch jobs and careers now than it was then. But back then, especially pre-renaissance, your job DID define who you were. Those were harsh time, and the ability to get a well-rounded educationa dn be able to explore many different careers simply DID NOT EXIST. This is a similar enviornment to RIFTS, where danger is much more commoon and educational institutions are not. People don’t have the luxury of sampling different careers – they often only have one or two jobs in their lifetime.

This is where the preferance for one’s strength comes from – a significant portion of their lives, including those formative teenage years, were probably spent training and studying for that one OCC. It would be like going to schools that specialized in banking and economics for middleschool and highschool – once you go through those, the majority of people graduating will probably go into banking or economics, and will look at the world through the eyes on economist. They will likely think in terms of opportunity costs, market shares, and other economic terms and models.

Not saying you can’t “break the mold” or create a character that differs from this – by all means make your character unique – but remember that stereotypes come from somewhere, and the mold is often used because it works

And please try to look back at things before going “I don’t know what your talking about here” – I’ve done such when going over your posts

In regards to the “All horses” comment – I’ll try and put it in a different format
You can only choose to eat beans
You can only choose one thing to eat
You eat beans

This is not the same argument as:
You can only choose to eat beans
You can eat whatever you can choose
You eat beans

If you try and be good at using BOTH tech and magic, you’ll never really master either of them. Mor eimportantly, if you try, and your in a group of people who all do likewise, then your individuality suffers – everyone’s using the same or nearly the same thing, “because it’s practical”

Yes, if you limit the choice to “shooting the guy with a gun vs shooting the guy with Fire Bolt”, one would be hard-pressed to make an argument for using Fire Bolt that would be practical. So don’t be so limiting in veiwing the problem – expand the description so that other possibilities can come into play. If he’s in EBA, use Mental Blast instead – it will work MUCH better than your energy pistol.

Well, get some MDC leather armor, and a robe with a good-sized hood, and you’ll be fine. – No EBA needed

Well, the faster you travel, the less likely you are to notice and ambush, which means that this is in the MOUNTS favor. Train the horse and you won’t have to worry about it spooking and throwing you off. Repel animals will take care of the “seen as food issue”, and a good mount is trained to ignore distractions. As to the sand cloud – they do look different – anyone skilled at tracking would notice such

As for the random location, that the Shifter’s class ability – the spell has no such stipulation. Teleport Self is in Megaverse Builder, and is mentioned in RUE under the shifter spell list

Maybe not “vehicle” enhancements, but certainly any enhancement that can be put into armor – take a look at RIFTER #2

And finally (for this post)
In regards to the wear and tear – I guess we have “irreconcileable difference”, since you seem unwilling to consider TW construction and theory, instead saying something to the effect of “the don’t implicitly diagram the device, so we have NO WAY of knowing how it works or how it’s complexity compares to a [tech item]”. This is an RPG – use your imagination and some critical thinking skills and do a thought experiment – it’s not really that hard to grasp the basics of it.

[Malakai]

I don't mean to be rude, or anything, but I can honestly say I started mentally skipping over these quote-fest posts several pages ago. I'm sure there are good points in there, and stuff, but I just can't make myself read them.

Strive for concision and readability, or prepare to be ignored more.

take a look at my sig - I know

unfortunatey, we got too much into one post, and then it stayed that blown up afterwards. even trying to trim it down came with much difficulty, as things often had to be repeated.

still, no hard feelings - skip over whatever you want

[Malakai]

I don't know that we would really agree to that. But the opposite notion has been throughly dispelled, the myth that a mage MUST use technology in the Rifts world to survive. A good player with a decent collection of spells and access to certain high level spells via a guild or brotherhood, is more than capable of living their entire existence without ever having to depend on technology as anything other than decoration. Not all the spells you'll need have been put into canon yet, like I use a variant of the Calling spell to replace radio communications for my mages. But all the basics for a technology free existence are there. If you have a bad GM, that doesn't give you access to any more spells than the bare minimum, then by all means it will be 8th or 9th level before you can approach that level of independence from technology if ever at all. But it's really just a reflection of a poor GM, than a limitation of the game itself.

I wouldn't immediately label them a bad GM, but rather, as a player, I would ask them why they feel the need to restrict? after all, many tech-based characters start out with multi-million dollar pieces of equipment - why not make some of those "magical equivalents" available to the magic-user? just because you have Talisman or create Magical Scroll doesn't mean the game is gonig to be "broke" - those things take a lot of PPE - your not likely to be casting those every day. But they do help get those really helpful but REALLY COSTLY spells out into play more, and feel like they were worth getting. I mean, lets face it, throwing out a four-figure-PPE-cost spell and having it go away in under an hours is kinda lack-luster.

for my character, the most used spell has probably been Fire Globe - relatively cheap, lasts for weeks (so you can stockpile them), and very useful in groups. after that, I have been making much use of Create Magic Scroll because I know that in certain situations, I'm going to need to keep my PPe in reserve, so I make commonly-used but high-costing spells as scrolls whe I get the chance

[Malakai]

Not all the spells you'll need have been put into canon yet, like I use a variant of the Calling spell to replace radio communications for my mages.

Kind of negates the point then.
Because I'll just counter with "Not all of the reasons why mages must depend on magic are canon yet, like all those monsters who are impervious to magic, but take double-damage from technology."

You know, I don't think I've EVER seen something take double damage from tech in palladium

but I would say they are thier, for the most part - save things like laser discs, and other such. though, using TTGD, you could make a spell to do such . . .

But all the basics for a technology free existence are there. If you have a bad GM, that doesn't give you access to any more spells than the bare minimum, then by all means it will be 8th or 9th level before you can approach that level of independence from technology if ever at all. But it's really just a reflection of a poor GM, than a limitation of the game itself.

This is where we disagree; I think it's a poor GM who coddles his players and gives them high-level spells just so that the mages can indulge in some sort of anti-tech fetish.

depends on what you mean by "coddle" if you mena just making them available, then I would disagree - one of the best parts of most mages is being able to learn higher-level spells "before thier time". and again, why are your going to limit mages, and then let the Tech-boys run around in multi-million dollar pieces of equipment, and paying 6-figure bills for repair work after every battle?

[Malakai]

I really think the examples, arguments and counterarguments seem to imply to me so far that efforts to abstain from technology will depend on the campaign. If it's a wartime campaign, especially against a foe with superior numbers, you'll be walking to the fridge for your beer, not using TK; and you may reconsider other expenditures, as you could well run out. Also depends on whether or not your character and GM both agree that you should have Talisman, to say nothing of a few other really fascinating spells necessary for such purposes.

You never answered KC's question about PPE regeneration. I'm curious.

Well, there are a couple ways to do this. in that post, I was only refernig to a single casting, not the entire PPE pool being used up

however, I should mention a (somewhat cheesey) way to fill the Energy Sphere spell.

Needed: 2nd level caster, Time Hole, Energy Sphere, and base PPE greater than 170.

How it works: Time hole gives you 24 hours per level for the cost of 4 hours per level In-Game. While Time Hole itself is a costly spell, one will realise that after 17 hours of mediation (twice as long sleep), you would have that PPE back.So, going by 2nd level minimum,
17 hours to regain the PPE - can be granted as going through a whole day
2nd day cast Energy Sphere and fill it with 50 PPE, spend the rest of the day meditatiing . sleeping to get your PPE back
after that, you should be able to cast Time Hole again (after the first one expires) and still have 10 PPE in your Energy Sphere - continue till you have a full Energy Sphere.

obviously, the greater your PPE base is, the less you have to do this to get a full energy sphere. Also, the higher the level you are, the less you have to re-cast Time Hole
a second-level character using this could have 370 PPE available, statring with a 170 base

[NMI]

Play nice or I lock the thread.

[Killer Cyborg]

OK, i'll try for the concise post then:

One thing I think is really setting the difference in viewpoints is gaming experience:

KC, you mentioned that most magic-users are levels 1-5? How do you figure?

Because the books state that most characters on Rifts Earth are around that level. (though I don't remember where it says this)

Not everyone starts off at level 1 in thier games.

How people houserule things doesn't affect the way the game is designed to be played.

and even if they do, it's not that hard to rise in levels. as an example:

Skill use: 10 - 25 (10 average)
Clever & Futile idea: 25 - 50 (4 average)
Judgement / power: 25 - 50 (4 average)
playing in character when it would be easier not to: 25 - 50 (yes, I had to emphasize this one ) (2 average)
Clever & Useful: 25 - 100 (2 average)
avoiding unneccessary violence: 50 - 100 (2 average)
kindness / mercy / compassion: 50 - 100 (4 average)
dedcutive reasoning: 50 - 100 (2 average)
heroic action: 50 - 100 (1 average)
quick thinking: 100 (2 average)
TOTAL: 1,050 - 2,050 average per game, NOT counting enemies defeated or heroic actions that save the lives of others


With a weekly game seesion: even at the lowest, you would be a 5th level LLW in 4 months, starting from 0 XP.

Depends on the GM, the players, and the sessions.
It took Kev and company 2 years of regular, weekly, 9-hour sessions for his characters to get to 7-9th levels.

In my groups, the average was probably about 500-750 xp per session per player.

Second, as to the availability of certain spells - it says there's only a 10% chance of say, Talisman or Create Magic Scroll, being available - well, then by that reasoning 10% of magic proprietors KNOW the spell. If it's not at the shop your at - check another one.

Sure, except that a lot of shops don't even sell spells at all.
"Most magic shops and even colleges do NOT offer the full range of spells (level 1-4 are most common) and many shops will not teach spells at all! Just because a shop sells magic items and TW devices does not mean that its proprietors can teach magic."

That 10% chance is IF you find a place that teaches magic, and IF they teach high level magic.

As to the price - 500,000 to 1 million credits. wow - that does seem pretty expensive . . . wait, how much does a PA cost? around 1 million for a Flying Titan or Samson. What about that Nuclear-powered ATV that everyone seems to drive around in? 500,000. what about that Titan Combat Robot that the other character STARTS OUT WITH? 24 MILLION CREDITS. Heck, even you typical weapons and Armor are worth about 25,000 apiece. And were you not the one mentioning carrying around a lot of loot to sell off?

Now calculate up the cost of the starting spell list and gear for mage classes.
Then consider the fact that spells don't have massive repair costs, but big Robots and vehicles do.
And that what vehicle the characters start with is usually subject to GM approval.

As to the "More than one spell on a magic scroll" - I think that's a carry-over from Palladium Fantasy, but I'm not too sure - I'll take a look when I have my books in front of me.

I actually think I remember scrolls with multiple spells being in treasure troves in official adventures... but I might be thinking of AD&D.

Also a matter of setting is the "ambush" - you said you get ambushed pretty frequently - why? do you follow some pre-laid out path or trade route? Do you advertise you position all the time? Do you travel in open fields constantly?
And, more importantly, have you angered THAT MANY PEOPLE that an ambush is around every corner?

Nope.
But there are a lot of bandits and monsters around.

(And yeah, we have angered a hell of a lot of people. Well, mostly demons.)

Yes, in some environments, you have some fighting every day, but in the majority of cases, I would think that a fight or ambush every 3 days is in the upper limits of realistic - giving you plenty of time to regain spent PPE

Sometimes that would be the case.
Other times, not.
Heck, some people roll random encounters for every hour or so on the road!
Personally, I think that's a bit extreme.
But there are going to be plenty of times where you get into a fight more than once per three days.

What, you've never gone on a dungeoncrawl?
Or tried to clear a gang out of a city?
Or travelled through xiticix territory?
Or whatever?

As for being able to parry for others, it is official - you can, though it costs you an action (again, don't have my books in front of me right now). thus, if you have a "shield bearer" (as it were), they could parry for you while you cast.

Know where it says that?

And how is it useless against ranged attacks?

Because bullets and energy attacks cannot (as a rule) be parried.
Missiles can be parried by large robots using their arms to take the hit, but that's impractical for human-sized targets.
Arrows and such can be parried, but only at a large penalty.

as to having summoned creatures - there's plenty of spells for it, though Mystic Warrior would probably be the most likely.

Which means just one more spell before you can get rolling.
It's great, IF you have time to prep before hand, but that often doesn't happen.

1st attack- Mage casts Armor of Ithan
2nd attack- Mage starts casting Magic Warrior
3rd attack- Magic Warrior goes into effect
4th attack- Starts casting Sub-Particle Accelleration
5th Attack- finally inflicts 1d6x10+ MD.

You think people don't dodge? Why WOULDN'T they? OK, so they use up an action - they still don't get hit. And if thier goal is to escape, that's probably the best way to do so.

Actually, they give up an attack and often STILL get hit.
If their goal is to escape, that's one of the best ways to do it, the main time that dodging is really useful... but usually the enemies aren't going to start off combat by trying to escape.

As to magic spells that aren't in the RIFTS BoM - sorry to say, but it didn't have everything, and newer books come out all the time. Heck, they even forget to put OLD spells into the new books (this is what happened to Teleport Self - it was forgotten and placed in the Megaverse Builder, along with Expel Demons & Deevils). And again, same could be said of a lot of tech items - rare outside of one particular local.

I don't care about a spell that isn't in the BoM; I care about spells that aren't even Rifts spells.
Bringing those in is a house-rule, not the norm.

as to recovering PPE, is was refering to the cost of one casting, which lasts 1 round per level, so by level 5, your probabnly not casting it more than once per combat anyways

Gets into trouble when there's more than 1 combat per day.

Yes, Shifters linked with a God of Magic do NOT count as most mages - I'll grant yuo that - but they are one of the core classes - so there's bound to be a good percentage of them -

I don't know about that; shifters have a pretty bad rep, and I don't think they're anywhere near as common as line walkers, mystics, or even techno-wizards. They're kind of the outsider among the main-book mage.
But yes, I acknowledge that there are going to be some of them, and that they can get some good spells if they align themselves with a God of Magic.

What would you say to two mages that traded spells of equal or about equal levels - would that be a "Monty Haul" world? and before it comes out as far as cheating, this is between a PC and an NPC. remeber that since RUE, low level characters can get access to much higher-level spells, which in turn can be traded for other spells

By the book, it's out of character for both mages to do that.
The books go on and on about how secretive mages are, and how reluctant they are to reveal their secrets.

on to the range issue - then what are you talking about? if they can shoot me, then there's a straight line between my and the shooter. I've already proven that spell armor can take the hits - so how would this not apply?

Inti starts.
Your mage starts casting a spell or pulling out his magic trinket.
He gets shot.
He finishes casting the spell or using the trinket, he get shot again.
If the enemy is shooting from an inaccessible place out of range (flying 1,000' up, or far away over rough terrain, or whatever), then the mage has to take the time to cast another spell or use another trinket, and gets shot again.
He starts moving towards the enemy, and he gets shot again.
He keeps moving towards the enemy, and gets shot again.

Depending on what spell he casts, how far the enemy is, and how quickly the mage can move, his magic armor's going to be gone before he gets close.

He can cast Energy Field and buy a few rounds, but it's not a mobile spell so it won't get him closer to the enemy.

Because your shooter is mobile? - so he's firing wild - heck, he'll be lucky to hit me.

Not mobile as in "running and shooting at the same time," although there are enemies who can move and shoot at the same time, especially flyers.
Mobile in the sense that they take some shots while the mage is gearing up, then back off when he starts running towards them.
Unless the mage is REALLY fast, any number of enemies are going to be able to shoot, then move off a bit, then shoot again, without the mage actually gaining ground.

and in a wooded area, how do you expect them to make full use if thier range?

Best place for an ambush is to shoot from a concealed position in a tree-line or behind rocks/etc, while the targets are out in the open, far enough away that you can get a number of shots off before they get close.

What's the other option? in regards to the 1/2 damage ending the fight quicker.

I don't remember what this was about.

aside from range, how do they not?

How do what not what?

the number I said was HALF A DOZEN - 6. so, what do you suggest? 3? that seems fare enough - so, which 3? Personally, I have Shield, Sword, and Targeting / Throwing - all aplicable for his spells (and a TW shield) - let me say that WP Shield mixed with a TW Shield of Deflection will serve you better than many other WPs. Sword can often be used for spells, such as Lightblade, as can taregting and throwing - love those Fire globes.
but after that, more tends to take away from your possibilities - hence my half a dozen number

Or go with WP Energy Rifle, WP Energy Pistol, and one extra for whatever.

as to it being pragmatic - let's see which are more pragmatic to take
Targeting / Throwing - use for several spells, as well as grenades, vibro-blades (for throwing), magic throwing irons (or similar items), or even to play a mean game of darts
Sword: useful for both spell, TW, Psychic, and Tech swords, AND useul for both Defense and Offense
Shield - OK, so this one is more limited than the others, but when you consider the spells that can go into a TW shield, it makes it worth it

I'd rather have something that makes up for the mages' primary weaknesses; range and firepower.

You say that most spell casters are levels 1-5, higher-level spells are super-rare and nearly impossible to get, that you are constantly fighting, every day, and often more than once a day.

Actually, I said it depends on the campaign, that sometimes you fight every day, sometimes not at all, and often it's inbetween.

I say that most spell casters are mid-level range (5 – 10), higher-level spells are more readily available and within reach than you do, that combat is not a daily occurrence, and that combat does not happen multiples times a day.

Yeah, but you're wrong about most spell casters and the availability of spells.
Or rather, you're right that these are your house rules/interpretations, but they go against the material in the books.

In regards to the game balance argument – you meant that as a statement? In RIFTS? Even going on that, look at the XP charts again – pretty close all around, whether you’re a magic-user or not (dragons and other’s of their power-level not included). So obviously we can see that they don’t take significantly longer to level up, just to learn the basics of their class – which include the ability to cast magic

Not sure what exactly you're asking here, but Rifts does indeed care about game balance, and that's what the XP tables are about.
Whether or not they're effective, or to what extent, is another story.

Try playing a magic-user that doesn’t use tech weapons or vehicles – see how hard, or not so hard, it is.

It depends on the campaign.

As for the articles, I can see your point, but don’t particularly agree with most of it. Yes, charaters are meant to be individuals first, and their class second (if that), but when you consider that they’ve spent the better part of their life (up to the point of beginning gameplay) training in their field, it tends to shape them and their outlook. Yes there are those that train and study intensely on one thing, while favoring something else, but I see THOSE PEOPLE ase the exception rather than the rule. I think it’s best to think back into history for examples of OCCs than today, and for the following reasons –
Today, people get a much more rounded education than they did back then, (or that they do in RIFTS), and the pressing need to do something is not as great this time, as it was then, simply because it is more common and acceptable to switch jobs and careers now than it was then. But back then, especially pre-renaissance, your job DID define who you were. Those were harsh time, and the ability to get a well-rounded educationa dn be able to explore many different careers simply DID NOT EXIST. This is a similar enviornment to RIFTS, where danger is much more commoon and educational institutions are not. People don’t have the luxury of sampling different careers – they often only have one or two jobs in their lifetime.

This is where the preferance for one’s strength comes from – a significant portion of their lives, including those formative teenage years, were probably spent training and studying for that one OCC. It would be like going to schools that specialized in banking and economics for middleschool and highschool – once you go through those, the majority of people graduating will probably go into banking or economics, and will look at the world through the eyes on economist. They will likely think in terms of opportunity costs, market shares, and other economic terms and models.

Not saying you can’t “break the mold” or create a character that differs from this – by all means make your character unique – but remember that stereotypes come from somewhere, and the mold is often used because it works

1. A person's job doesn't define who they are. There are, and have been, and always will be a heck of a lot of people who don't look at every problem in relation to their career.
2. We obviously disagree about what the mold is.
3. The stereotype for a mage in Rifts is somebody who casts spells and uses tech, as the passages I quoted demonstrate.

And please try to look back at things before going “I don’t know what your talking about here” – I’ve done such when going over your posts

I've done things with your posts, a couple times.
But I'm not going to flip back and forth a dozen, or even half dozen, times just to make one post.
If you don't want to quote the parts that show what's being discussed, then phrase your responses in such a way that the nature of what is being discusssed is clear.
(Which you've done pretty well here)

In regards to the “All horses” comment – I’ll try and put it in a different format
You can only choose to eat beans
You can only choose one thing to eat
You eat beans

This is not the same argument as:
You can only choose to eat beans
You can eat whatever you can choose
You eat beans

With you so far.

If you try and be good at using BOTH tech and magic, you’ll never really master either of them. Mor eimportantly, if you try, and your in a group of people who all do likewise, then your individuality suffers – everyone’s using the same or nearly the same thing, “because it’s practical”

This is where you lose me.
It's not hard to master guns in Rifts; a mage with WP Energy Rifle is just as good a shot as a Headhunter with WP Energy Rifle.
And I don't think that "virtually all mages use magic over tech except when they have to" promotes individuality; I think it kills it.

Yes, if you limit the choice to “shooting the guy with a gun vs shooting the guy with Fire Bolt”, one would be hard-pressed to make an argument for using Fire Bolt that would be practical. So don’t be so limiting in veiwing the problem – expand the description so that other possibilities can come into play. If he’s in EBA, use Mental Blast instead – it will work MUCH better than your energy pistol.

Except that the argument that Hugh King made, and that you have been supporting, is that IF it comes down to Gun or Fire Bolt, mages should choose Fire Bolt.
Which is what I'm arguing against.

When spellcasting makes more sense, I'm all for spellcasting.
Because what I'm arguing for is pragmatism, NOT technology over magic.

Well, get some MDC leather armor, and a robe with a good-sized hood, and you’ll be fine. – No EBA needed

Hm.
I can't say for certain that that wouldn't work, but I'm skeptical.

(Also, as an aside, I've always thought the whole "MDC leather" bit was incredibly stupid. I can buy high-tech body armor allowing somebody to survive a railgun burst with their bones intact, if I stretch my imagination, but just wearing leather isn't going to do the trick, not unless the leather is stiffer than a few inches of steel. No need to respond to this point, because whether I like it or not, MDC leather is official, and does work.)

Well, the faster you travel, the less likely you are to notice an ambush, which means that this is in the MOUNTS favor.

Unless you drive slow in your vehicle.

Once again, it comes down to what you're trying to achieve.
Sometimes tech is the better way to go, sometimes not.

Train the horse and you won’t have to worry about it spooking and throwing you off.

Debatable if that's possible.

Repel animals will take care of the “seen as food issue”,

For animals, but not for monsters and demons.

As to the sand cloud – they do look different – anyone skilled at tracking would notice such

I'd put it more under the Intelligence skill or Perception or something.
But any way you slice it, it's something that a lot of people/creatures aren't going to get (or be good at).

As for the random location, that the Shifter’s class ability – the spell has no such stipulation. Teleport Self is in Megaverse Builder, and is mentioned in RUE under the shifter spell list

I still don't see it in the RUE spell list.

Maybe not “vehicle” enhancements, but certainly any enhancement that can be put into armor – take a look at RIFTER #2

Don't have it.

And finally (for this post)
In regards to the wear and tear – I guess we have “irreconcileable difference”, since you seem unwilling to consider TW construction and theory, instead saying something to the effect of “the don’t implicitly diagram the device, so we have NO WAY of knowing how it works or how it’s complexity compares to a [tech item]”. This is an RPG – use your imagination and some critical thinking skills and do a thought experiment – it’s not really that hard to grasp the basics of it.

Except you don't mean "use my (Killer Cyborg's) imagination," you mean "use your (Malakai's) imagination."

Because using MY imagination, TW and high-tech items are equally likely to break down.

[Killer Cyborg]

What bugs me is when elements that make Rifts mages and magic O.C.C.s unique get devalued by later books. Mages were not all that powerful back in the original main book, but part of that was because panicked escapes from Dog Packs and Psi Stalkers were a large part of the Rifts mage experience. Remember, Rifts was not guaranteed to succeed any more than any other game published, it could have stood with only that one book. This element eventually disappeared because Rifts got insanely huge, so i can live with that one.

Agreed.
At the same time, they inadvertently crippled mages when they introduced the Two Attacks For Living.

But another thing. The magic O.C.C.s in the main book were all cool, because they represented the developments humans had made up to that point.They were plainly stated as being weaker than the magics of more experienced races, but they had unique forms like Techno Wizardry and Line-Walking. Then more books came and line walkers became the default model for Magic Practitioners of other species as well. Even supernatural creatures were given Ley-Line walker abilities, not even bothering to rewrite it, just "In addition they have ability a, d and c of the Ley Line Walker O.C.C. This ruined the class for me. And let's not get into Techno-Wizardry going from a symbol of American Ingenuity and hope for humankind to "Oh yeah, these guys have it too. And these GALAXIES have it too. And Ninjas have it.".

Amen.

And now there are no more books in print that keep the spells from FoM and the RMB separate anymore, a separation that helped show how invocations that actually used scientific concepts like Sub-Particle Acceleration gradually came into being on rifts Earth.

Part of the problem was that those spells were just dumped into FoM with no explanation.
Were the spells pretty much supposed to be for people living in and around the FoM areas?
Were they newly discovered? How newly?
The book never said, so people were left disagreeing about all that.

I count FoM, in many ways, as a big blow to mages in Rifts, simply because it made them to munchy.
Worse, it made them munchy in the wrong ways (they were already arguably more powerful than a standard soldier/merc).
Sub-Particle Acceleration is one example, because it makes mages better at a tech attack then tech weapons are, which should NEVER happen.
Each category should be pretty supreme in their own area.
Magic should be best at fireballs and lightning bolts; Tech should be best at particle beams, ion beams, and lasers.
And at the same time, while the spell itself is more powerful than the tech equivalent, it doesn't really make mages much better at combat (which is presumably what the spell was supposed to do), because it still takes two actions to cast (potentially more than that, at the time the book came out).

And they came out with a bunch of spells where the power level wasn't dependent on leveling, which used to be one of the cooler, more unique aspects of magic.
Call Lightning was okay at low levels, but at higher levels it was better than a lot of tech weapons. This was good; they needed more spells like that.
But no, they went the other way...

[Killer Cyborg]

Teleport Self was introduced again when they rebuilt the Shifter one of the three or four times they did that. It was originally in Heros Unlimited. The spell is on page 47 of Rifts Dimension Book Seven: Megaverse Builder. Parts of it were cut and pasted into RUE haphazardly and the new spells introduced there didn't make it into the spell list. Sort of like Sense PPE for the original Shifter. They couldn't get it into any book except Rifts Sourcebook One, and they finally just took it out of the spell list for the Shifter because they couldn't bring themselves to put it into any of the following spell lists.

Yeah, I found it in the Megaversal Builder, but I still don't see it in the RUE spell list for Shifters.

[Killer Cyborg]

I would ask them why they feel the need to restrict? after all, many tech-based characters start out with multi-million dollar pieces of equipment - why not make some of those "magical equivalents" available to the magic-user?

It's a good question.
Here are the answers I can come up with:
1. Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to be rare, a lot rarer than high technology. So the tech gear was supposed to be easier to get ahold of overall.
Granted, Glitterboys and such were probably a lot rarer than TW-converted laser rifles, but GBs had their own OCC where pretty much the only special thing they got was that gear, more the equivalent of a HU Magic Weapon Heror or Magic Object Hero than of a mage.
2. Magic OCCs are already more powerful than non-magic OCCs (other than Mind Melters, who don't start out with a lot of gear). Giving better gear to the tech characters was a way to try to balance it a bit.
3. In a lot of ways, big robots and vehicles are their own penalty. A Glitterboy is easy to keep under control, for example, because the cost of repair is so high. Not to mention the ammunition costs for anything not linked directly to a nuclear power supply (missiles are particularly costly).
But a mage with a TW Flaming sword does as much damage as a C-12 laser rifle (granted, he doesn't have the range, etc), and he never needs to buy ammo for it.
(Vibro swords didn't need ammo either, but they only did 1/2 the damage).
Basically, tech gear is more balanced than magic.
So it makes sense that magical gear is harder to get ahold of.

just because you have Talisman or create Magical Scroll doesn't mean the game is gonig to be "broke" - those things take a lot of PPE - your not likely to be casting those every day.

For some people's campaigns, like yours IIRC, you don't need to cast them every day in order for them to make a BIG difference.
You just need to cast them (or recharge them) once every three days.
For all the reasons that those are good spells, they're likely to imbalance the game if available at lower levels.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not all the spells you'll need have been put into canon yet, like I use a variant of the Calling spell to replace radio communications for my mages.

Kind of negates the point then.
Because I'll just counter with "Not all of the reasons why mages must depend on magic are canon yet, like all those monsters who are impervious to magic, but take double-damage from technology."

You know, I don't think I've EVER seen something take double damage from tech in palladium

Me either.
People's house-creations can change the face of the game.

I think it's a poor GM who coddles his players and gives them high-level spells just so that the mages can indulge in some sort of anti-tech fetish.

depends on what you mean by "coddle" if you mena just making them available, then I would disagree

It would depend on how available.
Tenth level spells and up are supposed to be really, really rare; they shouldn't be handed out to just anybody.
I'd let players earn them, but they'd have to truly earn them.

- one of the best parts of most mages is being able to learn higher-level spells "before thier time".

Agreed.
But I don't think it should mean that most characters are going to access 10th+ level spells, except for those listed under each OCC.
The chief benefit is early on, when your first level mage gets access to spells of up to 4th level (not even counting the specialty magic classes and the access they get).

and again, why are your going to limit mages, and then let the Tech-boys run around in multi-million dollar pieces of equipment, and paying 6-figure bills for repair work after every battle?

The part about paying 6-figure bills balances things out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium's hostility to magic is self-evident and it attracts a lower class of player and GM to the game that shares that disdain. So you could make a case that the GM's just share Palladium's natural dislike for magic so it's really not their fault. Which I guess is debatable point, just like with any other sort of racism, are the children of the racists really responsible for their racism? I say yes, but you could say no, and it's likely we both could be right.

I think that the problem here is that you are equating "Magic is not supposed to replace technology" to mean "I Hate Magic!"
Which would mean not only that Palladium hates magic, but that pretty much every fantasy setting ever created "hates magic."

Because pretty much every mage I can think of used technology just as much as he used magic.

[Killer Cyborg]

Gets into trouble when there's more than 1 combat per day.

Interesting! So do hit-and-run tactics work well on mages? Basically just never giving them a chance to rest by moving in to strike and then moving out quickly?
Of course, there might be spells to help with that, but hit-and-run should probably be done at maximum range, which would also limit the usefulness of some spells intended to help with that.
I'm very interested in any arguments the idea of targetting a mage for hit and run tactics might cause.

As long as you can keep tabs on the mage, it works pretty good.

Another good trick is to wait until they get their buffing spells up, then retreat and come back in an hour or so.

[Malakai]

Sorry for the lack of posting soon - some things came up and I haven't been able to post as much

First, could you please find where it says most magic-users are levels 1-5, I would really like to know. I did find where it mentions parrying for others, it's in the GMG, page 33.

Moving on to XP and leveling, care to drop an example of XP awards for one of your games? I wonder why it would be so low, ESPECIALLY when you mentioned getting into multiple fights in a short span of time. I would figure you would have gotten more than that

In regards to balancing out Powerful tech with high cost - isn't that the idea behind massive-PPE-costing spells as well? yes, Scrolls and talisman help remove that part, but only in a limited way - you still need to GET the PPE, and even then, your not likely to have a vast horde of them with yout - probably less than a dozen total in nearly all situations (and not a dozen of each spell either). the reason I brought it up was that you mentioned the high cost of paying to learn a spell in addition to the rarity of finding a teacher at all, and then mentioned the availability of high-priced tech items as an alternative.

In reviewing the Magic section in RUE (and, as a side note, the Teleport Self spell was in the Shifter SPell list in the DB7 - my bad - though I think it should still be included in the RUE spell list), it DOES say that magic shops are rare OUTSIDE THE MAGIC ZONE, however, it also lists other sources, such as adult and ancient dragons, and fellow spellcasters (9th level and up) as where one can purchase magic, widening the market, so to speak. This is also where the trading I mentioned before would come in - I believe the books are referring to "freely trading spells with one another", as oppose to and actual exchange of equivilant services.

So, it really depends on WHERE you are and / or WHO you work for. after all, it's much more likely that you could find someone willing to teach you the spell (for a price). This is also a prime reason why such a place is a haven for magic users - it''s where they can learn more of their craft.

Also, don't forget the magic Guilds - it's one of the main reasons for membership.

NOTE: I still haven't been able to look at the multiple-spells per scroll yet, hopefully by next time.

And concerning spells that aren't "Rifts spells" - they're all Palladium, so they all qualify. Rifts has several things from PFRPG already. While I'll admit that it's a book that few people are likely to have, it doesn't mean that the spells shouldn't be available.

As far as going on a "dungeon crawl", not in the game I'm currently in - he did go into the haunted ruins of Dallas, cleared out a CS outpost there, as well as several camps of bandits using the area as a hideout - knowing that we were going to have multiple encounters, I played more of a supporting role, using mind-affetcing spells on the guards while melded with shadows (it was nighttime, and they were using bonfires for light) - others in the party dealt with enemies who retaliated.

As far as parrying bullets and energy strikes, it seems they have taken that out, for the most part (was originally in Conversion Book 1), though there are spells that do allow you to, and give bonuses for such (Deflect and Targeted Deflection being the first that come to mind). Alas, even shields, which should provide decent protection from such attacks, are by book nearly useless, so I would have to say find a TW one with Targeted Deflection - best choice.

As to your example of actions - it depends on what the situation is - if you don't have the time, dont' do it - Energy Field or Armor Bizarre will do fine in the first action, and then you should take a look at what you dealing with - long-range gunmen? find a way to close quickly or soem way of cutting the range advantage. Deflect will work well if they seem to be hitting hard, because Parrying doesn't require an action, meaning while they are firing you can close distance. Highly mobile? Stay in crowded areas, such as forest or ruins - get out of line of sight and force them to close in to engage - it's the tech that has limited payload (and those that don't are energy weapons, which is rendered impotent by Impervious to Energy, and other spells of similar nature.) If you out in an open plain (we'll assume there was no better way), try methods of concealment, such as Invisibility: Simple or Invisibility: Superior (using the simple, it would be best if you can hide or mask your infrared signature, as many tech optics can see such

Moving on to the dodging, they have a better chance of not getting hit than getting hit, and may be able to dodge behind cover (I think RUE mentions something like within 16ft or so in a single action - when mentioning missiles and plast radius)

Shifters may have a bad rep, but that shouldn't make them any less common - they hhave many more uses besides Summon Monster X. For one, shifters are especially valuable in travel - geographical obstacles qre quickly negated, and your more prone to travel far, since you can always go back home.

Where do you get that energy Field is not a mobile spell? it never says such in the spell description. as to scenario with someone flynig 1,000 ft up, that would be problematic. escape would be advisable, and there are plenty of spells that can help you there. as to fighting it straigh up, a low-level mage is going to be hard pressed to put up a fight - none of their spells are that range (yes, this is where tech would and should be used, but I think this would fall in the "last resort" clause)

as far as ground-based enemies using the "shoot and scoot" type of engagment, keep moving - you will quickly move out of range in a couple attacks, and they will have to activley pursue you, which means running and gunning (shooting wild) - not the best choice when one is trying to hit an evading enemy.

the horses arguement was for the City Rats:
You can have ONE Area of Expertise
You can only choose Skills
Your Area of Expertise is Skills

You can have as many Areas of Expertise as you can choose
You can only choose Skills
Your Area of Expertise is Skills

These are two different arguements, even though the give yuo the sa,e answer. Because if you change the second line in each to You can only choose between Skills and Magic, you will get different answers

As for picking the skills, yes, a couple won't really affect you character. i think we can drop the WPs skills arguement

Repel animals will work on monsters, not on demons - but then, to many demons, the person is more liekly the target anyways

You should get RIFTER #2 - it's really good, and considering that it has several variants on the TW, it would probably make for the best "Pragmatic" caster

[rat_bastard]

Vagabond: "I'm going to... drive around in my rusty pickup truck. Maybe cook a meal, or speak spanish. Frown"

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry for the lack of posting soon - some things came up and I haven't been able to post as much

First, could you please find where it says most magic-users are levels 1-5, I would really like to know.

Iit's not just mages; it's every class.
It's come up in threads before, although I don't remember where the books say it, or what threads we talked about it in.

I did find where it mentions parrying for others, it's in the GMG, page 33.

Check.

Moving on to XP and leveling, care to drop an example of XP awards for one of your games? I wonder why it would be so low, ESPECIALLY when you mentioned getting into multiple fights in a short span of time. I would figure you would have gotten more than that

Fights don't give much XP, not unless it's a Great Menace.
Even then, you get more points for good ideas and such.

Breakdown for an average player in an average game, from back when we were praying regularly?
Probably, about...
75-100 for skills
50-75 for Clever but Futile
100 for Clever, Useful idea
50 for playing in character
50 for good judgment
100-200 for minor menaces
100-200 for major menaces

In regards to balancing out Powerful tech with high cost - isn't that the idea behind massive-PPE-costing spells as well? yes, Scrolls and talisman help remove that part, but only in a limited way - you still need to GET the PPE, and even then, your not likely to have a vast horde of them with yout - probably less than a dozen total in nearly all situations (and not a dozen of each spell either). the reason I brought it up was that you mentioned the high cost of paying to learn a spell in addition to the rarity of finding a teacher at all, and then mentioned the availability of high-priced tech items as an alternative.

That may be the intent, but it doesn't really balance things out.
It leaves mages either crippled or overpowered, without much leeway inbetween.

In reviewing the Magic section in RUE (and, as a side note, the Teleport Self spell was in the Shifter SPell list in the DB7 - my bad - though I think it should still be included in the RUE spell list), it DOES say that magic shops are rare OUTSIDE THE MAGIC ZONE, however, it also lists other sources, such as adult and ancient dragons, and fellow spellcasters (9th level and up) as where one can purchase magic, widening the market, so to speak. This is also where the trading I mentioned before would come in - I believe the books are referring to "freely trading spells with one another", as oppose to and actual exchange of equivilant services.

Yup.
All stuff that's rare, and only a 10% chance each.

And concerning spells that aren't "Rifts spells" - they're all Palladium, so they all qualify. Rifts has several things from PFRPG already. While I'll admit that it's a book that few people are likely to have, it doesn't mean that the spells shouldn't be available.

Yeah, it does.

As far as parrying bullets and energy strikes, it seems they have taken that out, for the most part (was originally in Conversion Book 1),

Even in CB1, it was (IIRC) -6 to parry with no bonuses, and limited to certain classes and/or situations.

though there are spells that do allow you to, and give bonuses for such (Deflect and Targeted Deflection being the first that come to mind). Alas, even shields, which should provide decent protection from such attacks, are by book nearly useless, so I would have to say find a TW one with Targeted Deflection - best choice.

The rules never spell it out, but if you have a decent sized shield, you can hold it in front of your main body, forcing opponents to make a Called Shot in order to hit you.

As to your example of actions - it depends on what the situation is

Yes, it does.

Moving on to the dodging, they have a better chance of not getting hit than getting hit, and may be able to dodge behind cover (I think RUE mentions something like within 16ft or so in a single action - when mentioning missiles and plast radius)

It's only good if there's cover to hop behind, or if you're running away.
Other than that, best case scenario, you break even.

Shifters may have a bad rep, but that shouldn't make them any less common -

It's an indication that they're not common, not a cause.

they have many more uses besides Summon Monster X. For one, shifters are especially valuable in travel - geographical obstacles qre quickly negated, and your more prone to travel far, since you can always go back home.

Never really used them for summoning much.

Where do you get that energy Field is not a mobile spell? it never says such in the spell description.

Never says it's mobile.
It's not armor; it's a wall.

as to scenario with someone flynig 1,000 ft up, that would be problematic. escape would be advisable, and there are plenty of spells that can help you there. as to fighting it straigh up, a low-level mage is going to be hard pressed to put up a fight - none of their spells are that range (yes, this is where tech would and should be used, but I think this would fall in the "last resort" clause)

I disagree.
Running away is the last resort here.
If you have a rifle in that situation, using the gun is the first resort.
(Second, if you want to consider rejecting magical attacks as the first resort, but I don't consider NOT doing something a resort.)

as far as ground-based enemies using the "shoot and scoot" type of engagment, keep moving - you will quickly move out of range in a couple attacks, and they will have to activley pursue you, which means running and gunning (shooting wild) - not the best choice when one is trying to hit an evading enemy.

Depends on the speed of the people involved.

the horses arguement was for the City Rats:
You can have ONE Area of Expertise
You can only choose Skills
Your Area of Expertise is Skills

You can have as many Areas of Expertise as you can choose
You can only choose Skills
Your Area of Expertise is Skills

These are two different arguements, even though the give yuo the sa,e answer. Because if you change the second line in each to You can only choose between Skills and Magic, you will get different answers

Still don't see it.

Repel animals will work on monsters, not on demons - but then, to many demons, the person is more liekly the target anyways

Depends on where you draw the line between "animals" and "monsters."

You should get RIFTER #2 - it's really good, and considering that it has several variants on the TW, it would probably make for the best "Pragmatic" caster

I don't like varients on the TW.

[Malakai]

It's not just mages; it's every class.
It's come up in threads before, although I don't remember where the books say it, or what threads we talked about it in.

I've never seen it any any of the books, but i may have missed it - anybody else remeber seeing such in the books?

Moving on to XP and leveling, care to drop an example of XP awards for one of your games? I wonder why it would be so low, ESPECIALLY when you mentioned getting into multiple fights in a short span of time. I would figure you would have gotten more than that

Fights don't give much XP, not unless it's a Great Menace.
Even then, you get more points for good ideas and such.

Breakdown for an average player in an average game, from back when we were praying regularly?
Probably, about...
75-100 for skills
50-75 for Clever but Futile
100 for Clever, Useful idea
50 for playing in character
50 for good judgment
100-200 for minor menaces
100-200 for major menaces

hmm, might I ask how much in-game time typically occurs both during gameplay and between your game sessions, i.e. as downtime? Because you seem to only be doing a few things per session, at least relative to my typical experience, which would definitely be the main point of difference between XP awards.

In regards to balancing out Powerful tech with high cost - isn't that the idea behind massive-PPE-costing spells as well? yes, Scrolls and talisman help remove that part, but only in a limited way - you still need to GET the PPE, and even then, your not likely to have a vast horde of them with yout - probably less than a dozen total in nearly all situations (and not a dozen of each spell either). the reason I brought it up was that you mentioned the high cost of paying to learn a spell in addition to the rarity of finding a teacher at all, and then mentioned the availability of high-priced tech items as an alternative.

That may be the intent, but it doesn't really balance things out.
It leaves mages either crippled or overpowered, without much leeway inbetween.

How so? characters typically don't have enough time to sit around and build up huge reserves of PPE, meaning that even when you include such things as scrolls and Talismans, you are often only going to have a few of them around. Makes the Larger spells more usable in combat terms, and still not overpowering. face it, few mortal casters are going to get over 300 PPE, most probably not even that much - so items like Scrolls and Talismans are going to be used sparingly - since they can't be made on a whim - it requires time and effort to gather that much PPE (even with my cheesey-poof method described earlier, it still takes days to gather enough PPE)

In reviewing the Magic section in RUE (and, as a side note, the Teleport Self spell was in the Shifter SPell list in the DB7 - my bad - though I think it should still be included in the RUE spell list), it DOES say that magic shops are rare OUTSIDE THE MAGIC ZONE, however, it also lists other sources, such as adult and ancient dragons, and fellow spellcasters (9th level and up) as where one can purchase magic, widening the market, so to speak. This is also where the trading I mentioned before would come in - I believe the books are referring to "freely trading spells with one another", as oppose to and actual exchange of equivilant services.

Yup.
All stuff that's rare, and only a 10% chance each.

Actually, practicioners of magic aren't that rare INSIDE the Magic Zone, and Dragons, at least in several of the World Books, don't seem to be all THAT rare (though perhaps that's because the notable characters are the ones stated out in those books - still ,they ARE there).

Point is, they are not as rare as yuo think, when you consider all of them as sources, not just shops, and especially if you're looking in the Magic Zone

As far as parrying bullets and energy strikes, it seems they have taken that out, for the most part (was originally in Conversion Book 1),

Even in CB1, it was (IIRC) -6 to parry with no bonuses, and limited to certain classes and/or situations.

I don't remeber the exact penalties - I'll find them later, but I DO know that practicioners of magic were listed, when parrying with a magic weapon

though there are spells that do allow you to, and give bonuses for such (Deflect and Targeted Deflection being the first that come to mind). Alas, even shields, which should provide decent protection from such attacks, are by book nearly useless, so I would have to say find a TW one with Targeted Deflection - best choice.

The rules never spell it out, but if you have a decent sized shield, you can hold it in front of your main body, forcing opponents to make a Called Shot in order to hit you.

yeah, I always thought they did wrong by the shields - often you have as good a parry bonus with a sword - which makes little sense because they were designed to be the parrying device

Moving on to the dodging, they have a better chance of not getting hit than getting hit, and may be able to dodge behind cover (I think RUE mentions something like within 16ft or so in a single action - when mentioning missiles and plast radius)

It's only good if there's cover to hop behind, or if you're running away.
Other than that, best case scenario, you break even.

don't forget the penalties for speed and evasive manuevering: at least a -2

Shifters may have a bad rep, but that shouldn't make them any less common -

It's an indication that they're not common, not a cause.

Not sure what you mean here

Where do you get that energy Field is not a mobile spell? it never says such in the spell description.

Never says it's mobile.
It's not armor; it's a wall.

Actually, it says it can be placed around the mage, others, or an object. Considering the first two are usually moving around during combat, it would make sense that the field would move with them. if it doesn't, then it would trap them - and if your arguing that, I just found a spell much mores than Magic Net, because my enemies won't get a saving throw at all.

Thus, I determine it moves with the person it is cast on. Now, if it is used to protect and area, then it is immobile, because it's not targeting a specific thing any more (or, more appropriately, it's targeting the area, which doesn't move)

as to scenario with someone flynig 1,000 ft up, that would be problematic. escape would be advisable, and there are plenty of spells that can help you there. as to fighting it straigh up, a low-level mage is going to be hard pressed to put up a fight - none of their spells are that range (yes, this is where tech would and should be used, but I think this would fall in the "last resort" clause)

I disagree.
Running away is the last resort here.
If you have a rifle in that situation, using the gun is the first resort.
(Second, if you want to consider rejecting magical attacks as the first resort, but I don't consider NOT doing something a resort.)

Well, you may disagree, but unless you have one of those very powerful rifles, chances are your flying person is going to be dealing more damage than you, as well as have as have as much or more MDC as you - not really a combat I would want to stick around for.

the horses arguement was for the City Rats:
You can have ONE Area of Expertise
You can only choose Skills
Your Area of Expertise is Skills

You can have as many Areas of Expertise as you can choose
You can only choose Skills
Your Area of Expertise is Skills

These are two different arguements, even though the give yuo the sa,e answer. Because if you change the second line in each to You can only choose between Skills and Magic, you will get different answers

Still don't see it.

not much more I can do here

Repel animals will work on monsters, not on demons - but then, to many demons, the person is more liekly the target anyways

Depends on where you draw the line between "animals" and "monsters."

Are the Supernatural?
Are they Creatures of Magic?
Are they Sentient Beings?
Are they Plants?

If the ansewers to these questions are all "No"", then it's an animal (or a mineral, but I think we could avoid that one)

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not just mages; it's every class.
It's come up in threads before, although I don't remember where the books say it, or what threads we talked about it in.

I've never seen it any any of the books, but i may have missed it - anybody else remeber seeing such in the books?

Start a new thread on it.

hmm, might I ask how much in-game time typically occurs both during gameplay and between your game sessions, i.e. as downtime?

It varies.
Usually, not a lot.

Because you seem to only be doing a few things per session, at least relative to my typical experience, which would definitely be the main point of difference between XP awards.

My guess is that your GMs are more generous then the ones I'm used to (which is usually me).

This could also be a thread on its own.

That may be the intent, but it doesn't really balance things out.
It leaves mages either crippled or overpowered, without much leeway inbetween.

How so? characters typically don't have enough time to sit around and build up huge reserves of PPE, meaning that even when you include such things as scrolls and Talismans, you are often only going to have a few of them around.

Which means that they're overpowered until they use those special items, then they're under powered.

Makes the Larger spells more usable in combat terms, and still not overpowering. face it, few mortal casters are going to get over 300 PPE, most probably not even that much - so items like Scrolls and Talismans are going to be used sparingly - since they can't be made on a whim - it requires time and effort to gather that much PPE (even with my cheesey-poof method described earlier, it still takes days to gather enough PPE)

There are LOTS of cheesy ways to get the XP.
Either a GM allows them, and the characters get overpowered, or he doesn't, and they're not.

All stuff that's rare, and only a 10% chance each.

Actually, practicioners of magic aren't that rare INSIDE the Magic Zone,[/quote]

9th+ level ones are still pretty rare.

and Dragons, at least in several of the World Books, don't seem to be all THAT rare (though perhaps that's because the notable characters are the ones stated out in those books - still ,they ARE there).

Ones powerful enough to teach spells are.

I don't remeber the exact penalties - I'll find them later, but I DO know that practicioners of magic were listed, when parrying with a magic weapon

IIRC, it was when parrying with a magic sword.

Never says it's mobile.
It's not armor; it's a wall.

Actually, it says it can be placed around the mage, others, or an object. Considering the first two are usually moving around during combat, it would make sense that the field would move with them.

It doesn't say anything about how it's used in combat, so that doesn't matter.

if it doesn't, then it would trap them - and if your arguing that, I just found a spell much mores than Magic Net, because my enemies won't get a saving throw at all.

On the other hand, not much you can do to them while they're in the bubble.

Thus, I determine it moves with the person it is cast on.

You determine wrong.

Or maybe I'm wrong here; the spell description is incredibly vague.
Start a thread on it.

Now, if it is used to protect and area, then it is immobile, because it's not targeting a specific thing any more (or, more appropriately, it's targeting the area, which doesn't move)

It can't target an area, only people and objects.

Running away is the last resort here.
If you have a rifle in that situation, using the gun is the first resort.
(Second, if you want to consider rejecting magical attacks as the first resort, but I don't consider NOT doing something a resort.)

Well, you may disagree, but unless you have one of those very powerful rifles, chances are your flying person is going to be dealing more damage than you, as well as have as have as much or more MDC as you - not really a combat I would want to stick around for.

That's why you should have one of those powerful rifles.

As for how much MDC you have, or they have, that depends on what spells you use, what armor you use, and what you're up against.

Depends on where you draw the line between "animals" and "monsters."

Are the Supernatural?
Are they Creatures of Magic?
Are they Sentient Beings?
Are they Plants?

If the ansewers to these questions are all "No"", then it's an animal (or a mineral, but I think we could avoid that one)

Unfortunately, the line between supernatural and non-supernatural is blurred most of the time.

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, I give the experience to everyone who participated in the battle, but I don't give it out for every enemy unit defeated. I consider the entire encounter to be a ______menace, unless there were multiple factions invloved, then I might consider them separate.

Ditto.

[Malakai]

Start a new thread on it.

that seems to be the theme of this post - looks like a few new threads are going up

such as -
How much time passes in a game?
How do YOU award XP?
Energy Field - Armor or Wall?

How so? characters typically don't have enough time to sit around and build up huge reserves of PPE, meaning that even when you include such things as scrolls and Talismans, you are often only going to have a few of them around.

Which means that they're overpowered until they use those special items, then they're under powered.

same with some other tech equipment - Missiles are powerful, but of limited amount, to use an example. And even afterward, they're not that underpowered (if at all)

Makes the Larger spells more usable in combat terms, and still not overpowering. face it, few mortal casters are going to get over 300 PPE, most probably not even that much - so items like Scrolls and Talismans are going to be used sparingly - since they can't be made on a whim - it requires time and effort to gather that much PPE (even with my cheesey-poof method described earlier, it still takes days to gather enough PPE)

There are LOTS of cheesy ways to get the XP.
Either a GM allows them, and the characters get overpowered, or he doesn't, and they're not.

Not sure what your saying here - I think you saw PPE and read it as XP.

All stuff that's rare, and only a 10% chance each.

Actually, practicioners of magic aren't that rare INSIDE the Magic Zone,

9th+ level ones are still pretty rare.

While they would be the typical teachers, why wouldn't a lower-level mage accept an offer for thier knowledge? Obviously their breadth of knowledge is more limited, but if your looking for Spell X and Mage knows Spell X and is willing to teach you (for a price), then it really doesn't matter whether he's level 5 or 15.

and Dragons, at least in several of the World Books, don't seem to be all THAT rare (though perhaps that's because the notable characters are the ones stated out in those books - still ,they ARE there).

Ones powerful enough to teach spells are.

You say that as though it's a requirement - it's not, just a preferance

I don't remeber the exact penalties - I'll find them later, but I DO know that practicioners of magic were listed, when parrying with a magic weapon

IIRC, it was when parrying with a magic sword.

which is the most common incarnation of magic weapons (save TW guns) anyways - just look at how many spells create a sword to use

Actually, it says it can be placed around the mage, others, or an object. Considering the first two are usually moving around during combat, it would make sense that the field would move with them.

It doesn't say anything about how it's used in combat, so that doesn't matter.

but it provides some basis of what it should do

if it doesn't, then it would trap them - and if your arguing that, I just found a spell much mores than Magic Net, because my enemies won't get a saving throw at all.

On the other hand, not much you can do to them while they're in the bubble.

plenty you could do to him. Or, you could just leave him there - he's out of combat for at least a few actions, useful in it's own right, since you could use those actions to cast one of those Higher-level spells

Thus, I determine it moves with the person it is cast on.

You determine wrong.

Or maybe I'm wrong here; the spell description is incredibly vague.
Start a thread on it.

Ok, I'll start another thread

Now, if it is used to protect and area, then it is immobile, because it's not targeting a specific thing any more (or, more appropriately, it's targeting the area, which doesn't move)

It can't target an area, only people and objects.

true, but it can be cast so that it covers an area with multiple people in it, or several objects in it, which is what I'm refering to here

Well, you may disagree, but unless you have one of those very powerful rifles, chances are your flying person is going to be dealing more damage than you, as well as have as have as much or more MDC as you - not really a combat I would want to stick around for.

That's why you should have one of those powerful rifles.

As for how much MDC you have, or they have, that depends on what spells you use, what armor you use, and what you're up against.

If you have them, and your goal is to take out the enemy, then use them - it still falls under the Last Resort Clause

as for the armor, we'll see about energy field, but typically an enemy shooting at you 1,000 ft above you is in PA or some kind of vehicle, which means they are likely to have more than 100 MDC, which is the upper limit for standard Body Armor. Spell Armor will of course increase this through multiple castings, but your enemies also typically dish out higher than normal dasmage any (Samas dealing 1D4x10, as an example)

[Killer Cyborg]

Which means that they're overpowered until they use those special items, then they're under powered.

same with some other tech equipment - Missiles are powerful, but of limited amount, to use an example. And even afterward, they're not that underpowered (if at all)

Spells are more powerful than missiles, in that they're more versatile.
Missiles just blow stuff up, which you can do with normal guns (though it might take longer).
Spells rearrange reality.

There are LOTS of cheesy ways to get the XP.
Either a GM allows them, and the characters get overpowered, or he doesn't, and they're not.

Not sure what your saying here - I think you saw PPE and read it as XP.

No, I meant to write PPE, but misspelled it as XP.

9th+ level ones are still pretty rare.

While they would be the typical teachers, why wouldn't a lower-level mage accept an offer for thier knowledge?

Because the books go on and on and on about how mages are secretive and don't want to trade or sell spells.

Obviously their breadth of knowledge is more limited, but if your looking for Spell X and Mage knows Spell X and is willing to teach you (for a price), then it really doesn't matter whether he's level 5 or 15.

That would make sense, but it's not the way the writers picture the world working.
Frankly, I've always thought that the whole "mage super-secrecy" bit was something that needed a lot more explaining.

Ones powerful enough to teach spells are.

You say that as though it's a requirement - it's not, just a preferance

Does it say that in the books?

Actually, it says it can be placed around the mage, others, or an object. Considering the first two are usually moving around during combat, it would make sense that the field would move with them.

It doesn't say anything about how it's used in combat, so that doesn't matter.

but it provides some basis of what it should do

Not really, no.

if it doesn't, then it would trap them - and if your arguing that, I just found a spell much mores than Magic Net, because my enemies won't get a saving throw at all.

On the other hand, not much you can do to them while they're in the bubble.

plenty you could do to him. Or, you could just leave him there - he's out of combat for at least a few actions, useful in it's own right, since you could use those actions to cast one of those Higher-level spells

Then have fun with your newfound use of that spell.

Now, if it is used to protect and area, then it is immobile, because it's not targeting a specific thing any more (or, more appropriately, it's targeting the area, which doesn't move)

It can't target an area, only people and objects.

true, but it can be cast so that it covers an area with multiple people in it, or several objects in it, which is what I'm refering to here

Why would it behave any differently if it had several people in it than if it had just one person in it?

That's why you should have one of those powerful rifles.

As for how much MDC you have, or they have, that depends on what spells you use, what armor you use, and what you're up against.

If you have them, and your goal is to take out the enemy, then use them - it still falls under the Last Resort Clause

Refer to my previous addressing of what constitutes a "last resort."

as for the armor, we'll see about energy field, but typically an enemy shooting at you 1,000 ft above you is in PA or some kind of vehicle,

Totally depends on the campaign.

[Eclipse]

Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

So a mage would rather blow PPE using Fly as the Eagle rather than hop on their hoverbike every time?

I don't buy it...

Nekira Sudacne, I've debated for days how to answer your question. But it's a tough question to answer, it's like asking me why I prefer red heads to blonds. There isn't wisely thought out rationalization involved, I just have a preference. I use Fly, Fly as an Eagle or Winged Flight because I don't have to worry about keeping up with the Hovercycle. It's just easier, fit's into my travel light mentality in the real world, that gets projected into the game world. It's just something fundamental in my personality. Some people just weren't born to be mages, it's just not in their DNA as players. Technology is a crutch for some mages because they are acted upon by an outside force (ie. a poor GM not giving them the spells that would allow them to develop) or they really don't have the mage mentality. The class is just a bad fit for them as a player. Nothing wrong with that, just realize that it isn't any measure of what it means to be a mage unless magic is what you are focused on doing. Think of it like a religion, where your not suppose to eat pork. Nothing physically keeps you from eating it, it's just something you believe you need to do. Same thing for vegans and so on. It's something greater than yourself that you adhere too even if it's fashionable or easy. I feel like I'm describing the color blue to a blind person, unless you have experienced it there is no point of reference for you to understand what I'm talking about.

I hope you wear your pointy 'Wizzard' hat and your robes as well..

I can buy using magic casually near ley lines and in magical societies, but if you're travelling outside these areas, I think you'd be a bit more flexible in using technology.

[Cinos]

So, I agree that, in general, tech will beat out magic in a Damage to Damage contest. I however, do not think magic, in general, needs to be better, just their damage options should be tweaked to offer a better parallel to tech options in frequency of use and / or damage potential, mostly through level scaling. Mages in my experience have been the lynchpin of many groups due to their non-damage and utility applications. Blinding Flash, Carpet, Magic Net, Multi-Image, Barrage, and many others are simply insanely good, but it leaves the mage dealing little, to no, damage. He won't kill that bad guy, but losing 2-6 actions from Barrage kinda sucks (and the -3 Dodge it offers for that time), stopping movement can cripple any defense against that Merc with the Rail Gun who can just pound the opponent with everything without fear, or lob a few plasma grenades at the immobile target.

As to why mages should / shouldn't have a personal preference to tech. They should have whatever preference the player thinks they should have. Some people are pragmatic and accept solutions they didn't go to school for that seem to work, others stick to 'their' way of doing things. That's a RP choice, little else.

[Killer Cyborg]

As to why mages should / shouldn't have a personal preference to tech. They should have whatever preference the player thinks they should have. Some people are pragmatic and accept solutions they didn't go to school for that seem to work, others stick to 'their' way of doing things. That's a RP choice, little else.

Bingo.

Which is why it bugs me when people that complain that the system is broken and/or mages get the shaft just because a mage can't rely on only magic, all of the time, for everything.

[Furoan]

While I don't think mages have been given 'the shaft', nor do I think Mages should be 'using magic for everything' I do think that, in RP terms, if a mage is standing somewhere and suddenly a group of monsters come rushing at him, he is MORE LIKELY, by instinct, to start casting a spell rather than to reach for his laser pistol.

Sure, you can play the mage, be very pragmatic and think 'yeah I can shoot the monsters from here with my laser pistol and not use my PPE' and that's great. However I think the argument that the mage is WRONG for starting to cast his spell, INSTEAD OF reaching for his pistol is one I find objectionable.

There was an example in the Book of Magic book that I think worked well, with the mage going 'yeah, if i MUST use technology in this fight' before pulling his laser pistol and blasting the monsters running at him. However I also agree that most mages, note that I said most, are convinced that 'magic is better than tech'. Sure, for meta-game purposes we can point out that this tech weapon does more damage than this magic spell, or vice versa, but really if you go for pure RP purposes, then the mage is going to believe that his power, and versatility is better than your laser rifle.

To steal a line from somebody you might be familiar with. "Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age." Sure were not talking about lightsabers here, but that is the kind of view on magic I would expect a LLW, or other kind of Men of Magic O.O.C to have.

Is a mage wrong for reaching for his blaster pistol? No. Should a mage be penalized that he decides to use a tech vehicle rather than keep walking till he finds a magical mount? No.

A Mage might PREFER a magical mount of some kind, or he might not, and decide to stick to some kind of hover scooter or the like, in any of its many forms throughout the RIFTS universe. Perhaps he likes his tech vehicle of choice more than a magical mount. Perhaps he thinks going out and winning one over, or making agreements is to much bother. Perhaps he is part of say a Merc company and all members are getting the same kind of vehicle. There are many reasons you can bring.

I seem to have wandered a bit but my main point was, mages might not 'do everything ever with magic' but the most versitility and instinctive reaction is most liekly going to BE magic simply because the options it offers. A laser pistol or rifle, or some kind of other weapon, might do more damage, but at the same time it shouldn't be a mages FIRST option, unless there are circumstances that makes using magic unwise, such as being in the middle of the CS right in front of twitchy soldiers, or the fact that you KNOW that using that magic spell is going to come back since you have multiple fights in the day. Holding of using magic for MOST things because 'you might need it later' is something I object, but is more both a player and GM issue than one for the actual game rules.

If your constantly finding yourself, as say a Shifter, or a Lay Line Walker, unable to use your magic except VERY sparingly because you keep getting jumped time after time, then you need to speak with your GM and tell him that its making it hard on your RP class. There is a problem here, but there are many solution's. Obviously a thining of combat so you CAN use your PPE to throw the occasional fireball in battle , or pull up that spell to assist your party members would be great.

However that's not the only way you can do it. Maybe turn this into an actual side quest? Your Lay Line Walker is constantly being forced into exahustion from all this nonstop combat, and keeps running out of energy that is refilling to slowly to be in use in the long battles. Perhaps he sets out on a quest for somebody who CAN teach him to make scrolls, or can assist him in making them, or talismans or other things.

There are many ways to deal with it, and yes, deciding to keep a trusty laser pistol at your side to pull out in times of combat, and limiting yourself to one or two spells instead of using ALL your magic is certainly one of them. However, RIFTS has so much to offer that saying 'you cant just rely on magic' at the same time seems horribly limiting to me. Why cant I just rely on magic? As Kevin said, multiple times in the book, Role playing is all about your imagination, which has no limits. If I want to play a magic character who disdains technology, why can't I do this? While it might not be the best playstyle in terms of survivability/damage etc, why exactly, cant I decide to play that way? Granted, its only polite to tell the GM or other players before they start that my character doesn't like tech and wont use it so as to not throw the campaign out of whack, but there shouldn't be an issue if I decide to play that way. There are enough spells around that I could certainly do so.

If you say that those spells are rare and I cant have them, then that's constrictive. Yes, as a first level Lay Line Walker I probably cant create talismans or command the forces of nature to do my bidding as a near physical god, but at the same time, I can play my charecter that way. Perhaps he looses his superiority complex when he sees the power of his Man at Arms teammate commands, or perhaps he dismisses the efforts of the Juicer leader in his Mercanary company as a mindless thug who doesnt understand anything about REAL elegance.

Men of Magic CAN stick to just magic, though it might not be the optimum way to play, and presents its own challenges to get around. Just as if I decide to focus on using my tech weapons and my magic, I'm using skill spaces for these weapons, and making different choices. Ultimately, there is no RIGHT way to play. You want to use your tech weapons as a LLW? Sure go ahead. Just remember that this is a choice, that will have consequences to how your character develops, just as if you had chosen only to focus on magic.