Energy Weapons & Penetration Value

[GreenGhost]

I've seen a lot of talk (on and off) about the use of snipers in Rifts and the somewhat difficult (or possibly unbalanced) sniper energy wepons and MDC Armor.

I think energy weapons should have a Penetration Value, let alone Railguns, specialty rounds, such as DUI and Ram Jet Rounds, and explosives. I do see the arguement that basic laser weapons may have low penetration, but other energy weapons (Ion, Particle Beam, etc.) would possibly have decent penetration.

I've been thinking about a realistic way to use Penetration Value for a while now (ever since I saw the cover of Juicer Uprising w/ the CS Deadboy with the "bullet hole" in his helmet).

I think it'd be fairly easy figuring a Penetration Value for the different type of enegry weapons (and kinetic). The only possible difficulty that I see is the energy release of weapons of the same type (i.e. laser rifles that do higher amounts of MD than others).

By using a Penetration Value in Rifts the amount of combat time would be reduced greatly. I've seen a lot of talk in here about how long and sometimes drawn out combat/hand to hand in Palladium can be.

I'm going to work on a possible Penetration Value this weekend, but I'd like to see what others think about the idea and how you may go about figuring out which weapons have what PV.

[Killer Cyborg]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

[Natasha]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

I pretty much agree with #1.
I totally agree with #2.

Energy weapons should have no PV.
Kinetic weapons however might. But such weapons are borg/vehicle mounted. Not useful by snipers.

That's right. I'm still opposed to pushing the scope of snipers (pun intended ) into areas of the battlespace they don't belong. Call me old-fashioned.

[GreenGhost]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

2. To each his own. I like it, but I know you aren't alone when you say you don't.

[Natasha]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

An MD strike that penetrates my armour means I'm dead, no matter where it hits me, correct? Unless I myself have MDC skin.

[bigbobsr6000]

How about for each damage die, the weapon ignores/penetrates X SDC/MDC protection. Limiting it to only sniper rifles types with this capability.

EX: Say X = 5. 5d6 damage dice = 5 x 5 = 25 MDC penetration so the damage would be to a helmet of 60MD would = 60-25=35MDC left to apply the 5d6 damage roll to.

Hope this helps.

[GreenGhost]

Heh, that's funny, I just decided this morning, before seeing this post, that I was going to develop my optional armour rules and post them this weekend too. I'm going with a percentage system I think. Nice and simple, if a weapon inflicts a certain percentage of the armour's complete MDC score in a single hit, it's penetrated. May have to do something for certain types of burst weapons ( like rail guns and machine guns) where the bullets all hit different spots on the armour, as opposed to pulse rifles, which fire so quick that all the pulses hit the same spot.

I'd like to see what you come up with. It's like Killer Cyborg said, how do you do it without making it so that everyone gets killed too easy? I might make it a little harder to puncture the player characters armour, a sort of "heroes luck" type element, though I know there's already alot of that in Rifts as it is. We'll see, I'm gonna play test it as a house rule in my new group.

Cool. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with too. As for KC's concern about characters getting killed too easy- I use Hit Location, which saves a lot of lives and teaches players better gaming.

[Library Ogre]

I did some work on an alternate combat system for Palladium Fantasy that included PV as part of the rules.

I see energy weapons as having a very low PV... they have a lot of punch, but it tends to expend itself all over the first significant object it hits, especially if that object is designed to be armor at all. Kinetic weapons, like rail guns, are the PV kings... they punch through armor easily, leaving big, ragged holes in things that then have shredded innards.

Conversely, however, I don't see railguns as being very effective against force fields, while I do see energy weapons as being so. Forcefields, IMO, are well represented by a hunk of xDC, while armor is better represented by a Reduction Factor. PV reduces RF, but doesn't help against MDC.

[GreenGhost]

I did some work on an alternate combat system for Palladium Fantasy that included PV as part of the rules.

I see energy weapons as having a very low PV... they have a lot of punch, but it tends to expend itself all over the first significant object it hits, especially if that object is designed to be armor at all. Kinetic weapons, like rail guns, are the PV kings... they punch through armor easily, leaving big, ragged holes in things that then have shredded innards.

Conversely, however, I don't see railguns as being very effective against force fields, while I do see energy weapons as being so. Forcefields, IMO, are well represented by a hunk of xDC, while armor is better represented by a Reduction Factor. PV reduces RF, but doesn't help against MDC.

I think laser weapons would have a low PV, but Ion or Particle Beams would have a better PV.

I completely agree with what you had to say about forcefields. I'm mainly thinking about simple MDC Body Armor and possibly some Power Armors.

[GreenGhost]

How about for each damage die, the weapon ignores/penetrates X SDC/MDC protection. Limiting it to only sniper rifles types with this capability.

EX: Say X = 5. 5d6 damage dice = 5 x 5 = 25 MDC penetration so the damage would be to a helmet of 60MD would = 60-25=35MDC left to apply the 5d6 damage roll to.

Hope this helps.

Nice- I like it

[Killer Cyborg]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

[Killer Cyborg]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

An MD strike that penetrates my armour means I'm dead, no matter where it hits me, correct? Unless I myself have MDC skin.

Well, if you get hit on the arm or leg, you might survive, if you don't immediately bleed to death, and you get good medical treatment.

But any hit on the torso or head, yeah... you're toast unless you have one hell of a lot of SDC.

[GreenGhost]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

I agree with you that the Palladium system isn't designed for that style of play, but I don't think it'd require much revamping at all. Then again I haven't started on it past mental planning. So I could be wrong about that. I'll definately find out though.

[GreenGhost]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

An MD strike that penetrates my armour means I'm dead, no matter where it hits me, correct? Unless I myself have MDC skin.

Well, if you get hit on the arm or leg, you might survive, if you don't immediately bleed to death, and you get good medical treatment.

But any hit on the torso or head, yeah... you're toast unless you have one hell of a lot of SDC.

Blood loss would be something that people would have to consider, but I still think that losing that limb and relying on someone to help that character stop the bleeding would not only make for good game play and character design, but it'd also still give that character a chance at life and not automatically becoming "toast."

[GreenGhost]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

An MD strike that penetrates my armour means I'm dead, no matter where it hits me, correct? Unless I myself have MDC skin.

Sorry Natasha- I missed your post here.

That's one of the things I need to work on when I do this. Exactly how much MD is expended on the armor and how much passes on through to the character. Also, this is where Hit Location comes into play. MD passing through the body armor and into the character doesn't automatically kill that character. Characters still have a chance. This would also help make a use for the Field Surgeon skill.

[Natasha]

A hit location matrix for sniper fire would have to favour the torso (or whatever the target's "center mass" happens to be).

[GreenGhost]

My basic system would work like this:

Total MDC of object struck Single shot MD to penetrate
up to 25 MDC 30%
26-100 MDC 50%
101-250 MDC 60%
251-500 MDC 70%
500 and above 75-80%

To be realistic those numbers would probably be lower (like 30% for body armour), but I don't want to make it TOO easy. Not sure what values I'll go with when I play test though. Basically, I want to make it so that an absolutely perfect shot (not natural 20 though) from a rifle sized hand held weapon can penetrate the average suit of EBA.

Damage is still subtracted from the armour, just like normal, but if any single shot, or pulse blast (other bursts don't count) goes above the penetration percentage, the rest of the damage goes through.

Cool- I'm thinking about looking at the Rifts Conversion Book. There are rules for AR Ratings that apply to Rifts Body Armor, Power Armor, Vehicles, etc. (for those who like to convert MDC into SDC, but that's not what I'm trying to get at here). Take that "AR" and convert it to PV. I think that'll be the easier part. The possibe difficulties lay in creating a PV for the weapons.

[GreenGhost]

A hit location matrix for sniper fire would have to favour the torso (or whatever the target's "center mass" happens to be).

Agreed, but as for the "TAG" Agent (or TAG whatever) in one of the Rifters has rules for the "T" spot or between the eyes. Granted this doesn't account for armor, but I'll have to read up on that in order to make sure I'm not talking out of my butt. I'll have to thumb through my Rifters to see which one the TAG info is in.

[Natasha]

A hit location matrix for sniper fire would have to favour the torso (or whatever the target's "center mass" happens to be).

Agreed, but as for the "TAG" Agent (or TAG whatever) in one of the Rifters has rules for the "T" spot or between the eyes. Granted this doesn't accoubt for armor, but I'll have to read up on that in order to make sure I'm not talking out of my butt. I'll have to thumb through my Rifters to see which one the TAG info is in.

I read the article a while back but I think head shots even for marksmen is a difficult called shot to make. While shooting lasers is significantly easier than shooting a SVD rifle, head shots would still be a difficult one at that unless the gun is operated with servos and/or otherwise disconnected from the body of the shooter since there is no shake and no weather and trajectory concerns. Which isn't outside the realm of possiblity in Rifts; an Operator could conjure up such a weapon system.

[GreenGhost]

A hit location matrix for sniper fire would have to favour the torso (or whatever the target's "center mass" happens to be).

Agreed, but as for the "TAG" Agent (or TAG whatever) in one of the Rifters has rules for the "T" spot or between the eyes. Granted this doesn't accoubt for armor, but I'll have to read up on that in order to make sure I'm not talking out of my butt. I'll have to thumb through my Rifters to see which one the TAG info is in.

I read the article a while back but I think head shots even for marksmen is a difficult called shot to make. While shooting lasers is significantly easier than shooting a SVD rifle, head shots would still be a difficult one at that unless the gun is operated with servos and/or otherwise disconnected from the body of the shooter since there is no shake and no weather and trajectory concerns. Which isn't outside the realm of possiblity in Rifts; an Operator could conjure up such a weapon system.

True. I think it requires a "Called Shot" with a penalty of a -3 to Strike. However, I don't think Rifle Scopes get enough coverage and should get, depending on use and quality, at least a +1. Not to mention those with the Multi-Optic Eye Lens Cybernetic Implants give an additional +1 on Ranged Attacks. So a well planned character can reduce the penalties by a good amount. On top of that are the Ranged Combat rules in another Rifter (maybe Rifter 11- I know- I'm a Rifter Junkie). The Ranged Combat: Sniper reduces that penalty even greater.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The TAG article is in Rifter #23. The Ranged Combat Rules are Rifter #11.

The author for the TAG article was my GM in a online game (that lasted for 3 years). The Kill Shot doesn't apply to armor, its for flesh and blood targets. Though I suppose if you wanted it too it could.

[GreenGhost]

The TAG article is in Rifter #23. The Ranged Combat Rules are Rifter #11.

The author for the TAG article was my GM in a online game (that lasted for 3 years). The Kill Shot doesn't apply to armor, its for flesh and blood targets. Though I suppose if you wanted it too it could.

Nice! Thanks man! You just saved me a lot of searching. I have all the Rifters- lol.

Thanks again!

[sasha]

I agree that the key is removing the gun from the shooter - or do something that removes body shake from transfering to the rifle. Maybe full body armours can accomplish this. In traditional marksmanship the scope magnifies the target, but it also magnifies body shake. That's why shooters aim for center mass, practice breathing, and don't go for telescope-sized magnification; these counter the reduction in shooting accuracy.

If you take out the shake then I see no reason for specialised range rules. It's just shooting, at least it is with energy weapons. Kinetic weapons or anything with a trajectory is another story.

All that's left is really how do you get an energy weapon to become an effective sniper weapon?

I'd say you can't.

[Killer Cyborg]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

An MD strike that penetrates my armour means I'm dead, no matter where it hits me, correct? Unless I myself have MDC skin.

Well, if you get hit on the arm or leg, you might survive, if you don't immediately bleed to death, and you get good medical treatment.

But any hit on the torso or head, yeah... you're toast unless you have one hell of a lot of SDC.

Blood loss would be something that people would have to consider, but I still think that losing that limb and relying on someone to help that character stop the bleeding would not only make for good game play and character design, but it'd also still give that character a chance at life and not automatically becoming "toast."

By the time anybody got the armor off enough to do anything, the person inside would already be dead, realistically speaking.
You can keep them alive by being unrealistic and stretching things a lot... but if that's the way you want to play, what's the point of PV rules to begin with?

[Killer Cyborg]

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

I agree with you that the Palladium system isn't designed for that style of play, but I don't think it'd require much revamping at all. Then again I haven't started on it past mental planning. So I could be wrong about that. I'll definately find out though.

In order to make it work, you would have to:
-Alter ranged combat rules making it a lot harder to hit.
-Turn Rifts into an SDC setting, so that somebody isn't going to be killed or get a limb blown off every time they get shot.
-Probably some other stuff that neither of us have thought of.

[Natasha]

Yeah, I see your point to Natasha. But I just still can't get used to the idea of having to completely destroy a suit of armour just to get through it. Then the armour is completely valueless and destroyed. With explosives, yes, with single point of impact weapons, no. A powerful laser shot, or ion beam, should be able to melt/burn a hole, not completely blow the armour to bits before it touches the squishy.

I understand your frustration, too; of course, I am not 100% clear how MDC works (or doesn't work, depending upon who you ask). From all I know and understand about it there's no place for a traditional sniper role to destroy it or the option for one-shot one kills. You need a different strategy.

As has been pointed out; you got to muck with the system a lot to get there.

But "as is", I just don't see anything happening.

[GreenGhost]

1. You could go that route, but only if you want everybody to die, all the time.
2. The art on the cover of Juicer Uprising is stupid.

1. I use Hit Location, which not only makes for an interesting game, but betters a character's chance for survival- so when using Hit Location (which I didn't mention before) and a Penetration Value it wouldn't be killing many more characters than normal. It would make the players think through their character's actions before "Rambo'ing" through their games. If modern soldiers entered combat the way players throw their characters in they'd be dieing left and right (granted this is a game and not reality, but it still makes sense).

An MD strike that penetrates my armour means I'm dead, no matter where it hits me, correct? Unless I myself have MDC skin.

Well, if you get hit on the arm or leg, you might survive, if you don't immediately bleed to death, and you get good medical treatment.

But any hit on the torso or head, yeah... you're toast unless you have one hell of a lot of SDC.

Blood loss would be something that people would have to consider, but I still think that losing that limb and relying on someone to help that character stop the bleeding would not only make for good game play and character design, but it'd also still give that character a chance at life and not automatically becoming "toast."

By the time anybody got the armor off enough to do anything, the person inside would already be dead, realistically speaking.
You can keep them alive by being unrealistic and stretching things a lot... but if that's the way you want to play, what's the point of PV rules to begin with?

Since body armor can be removed in sections and by only removing the section of body armor where the character is injured it'd save a lot of precious time that's needed to try and save the injured character. Whether it's a breast plate or an armored extremity it can be done quickly as long as you aren't trying to completely remove body armor from the entire body. Therefore, there is no stretching time unrealistically.

[Natasha]

A hit location matrix for sniper fire would have to favour the torso (or whatever the target's "center mass" happens to be).

Agreed, but as for the "TAG" Agent (or TAG whatever) in one of the Rifters has rules for the "T" spot or between the eyes. Granted this doesn't accoubt for armor, but I'll have to read up on that in order to make sure I'm not talking out of my butt. I'll have to thumb through my Rifters to see which one the TAG info is in.

I read the article a while back but I think head shots even for marksmen is a difficult called shot to make. While shooting lasers is significantly easier than shooting a SVD rifle, head shots would still be a difficult one at that unless the gun is operated with servos and/or otherwise disconnected from the body of the shooter since there is no shake and no weather and trajectory concerns. Which isn't outside the realm of possiblity in Rifts; an Operator could conjure up such a weapon system.

True. I think it requires a "Called Shot" with a penalty of a -3 to Strike. However, I don't think Rifle Scopes get enough coverage and should get, depending on use and quality, at least a +1. Not to mention those with the Multi-Optic Eye Lens Cybernetic Implants give an additional +1 on Ranged Attacks. So a well planned character can reduce the penalties by a good amount. On top of that are the Ranged Combat rules in another Rifter (maybe Rifter 11- I know- I'm a Rifter Junkie). The Ranged Combat: Sniper reduces that penalty even greater.

I'd be careful stacking some of those bonuses. For example, a cybernetic eye means you don't need a telescope scope. The magnification would be impossible to cope with.

[GreenGhost]

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

I agree with you that the Palladium system isn't designed for that style of play, but I don't think it'd require much revamping at all. Then again I haven't started on it past mental planning. So I could be wrong about that. I'll definately find out though.

In order to make it work, you would have to:
-Alter ranged combat rules making it a lot harder to hit.
-Turn Rifts into an SDC setting, so that somebody isn't going to be killed or get a limb blown off every time they get shot.
-Probably some other stuff that neither of us have thought of.

You wouldn't have to do any of what you mentioned above to keep the game realistic. Limbs won't be getting blown of and characters won't be getting killed left and right. If so- it's due to how a character is being played. Think about some of the situations a character runs into in Rifts. If a soldier reacted to a similar situation in real life as players generally have their characters react in a game they'd be dead or crippled- period.

If I'm correct you were or are military, KC, so you should know what I'm trying to say here. Granted this is a game, but reaction to combat is generally the same.

[Killer Cyborg]

By the time anybody got the armor off enough to do anything, the person inside would already be dead, realistically speaking.
You can keep them alive by being unrealistic and stretching things a lot... but if that's the way you want to play, what's the point of PV rules to begin with?

Since body armor can be removed in sections and by only removing the section of body armor where the character is injured it'd save a lot of precious time that's needed to try and save the injured character. Whether it's a breast plate or an armored extremity it can be done quickly as long as you aren't trying to completely remove body armor from the entire body. Therefore, there is no stretching time unrealistically.

I was talking about removing PART of the armor.
Say somebody gets shot in the arm, for example. Upper arm.
What's left of the lower part of the arm is going to be dangling there loose, but that doesn't mean that the armor is coming off easily, not if the armor is EBA, because then it's environmentally sealed, and that's going to take some time; you can't just unzip it.

[GreenGhost]

A hit location matrix for sniper fire would have to favour the torso (or whatever the target's "center mass" happens to be).

Agreed, but as for the "TAG" Agent (or TAG whatever) in one of the Rifters has rules for the "T" spot or between the eyes. Granted this doesn't accoubt for armor, but I'll have to read up on that in order to make sure I'm not talking out of my butt. I'll have to thumb through my Rifters to see which one the TAG info is in.

I read the article a while back but I think head shots even for marksmen is a difficult called shot to make. While shooting lasers is significantly easier than shooting a SVD rifle, head shots would still be a difficult one at that unless the gun is operated with servos and/or otherwise disconnected from the body of the shooter since there is no shake and no weather and trajectory concerns. Which isn't outside the realm of possiblity in Rifts; an Operator could conjure up such a weapon system.

True. I think it requires a "Called Shot" with a penalty of a -3 to Strike. However, I don't think Rifle Scopes get enough coverage and should get, depending on use and quality, at least a +1. Not to mention those with the Multi-Optic Eye Lens Cybernetic Implants give an additional +1 on Ranged Attacks. So a well planned character can reduce the penalties by a good amount. On top of that are the Ranged Combat rules in another Rifter (maybe Rifter 11- I know- I'm a Rifter Junkie). The Ranged Combat: Sniper reduces that penalty even greater.

I'd be careful stacking some of those bonuses. For example, a cybernetic eye means you don't need a telescope scope. The magnification would be impossible to cope with.

Good point. I'm typing here at work faster than I'm thinking obviously

[sasha]

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

I agree with you that the Palladium system isn't designed for that style of play, but I don't think it'd require much revamping at all. Then again I haven't started on it past mental planning. So I could be wrong about that. I'll definately find out though.

In order to make it work, you would have to:
-Alter ranged combat rules making it a lot harder to hit.
-Turn Rifts into an SDC setting, so that somebody isn't going to be killed or get a limb blown off every time they get shot.
-Probably some other stuff that neither of us have thought of.

You wouldn't have to do any of what you mentioned above to keep the game realistic. Limbs won't be getting blown of and characters won't be getting killed left and right. If so- it's due to how a character is being played. Think about some of the situations a character runs into in Rifts. If a soldier reacted to a similar situation in real life as players generally have their characters react in a game they'd be dead or crippled- period.

If I'm correct you were or are military, KC, so you should know what I'm trying to say here. Granted this is a game, but reaction to combat is generally the same.

This ain't RECON

I think there are other ways to induce intelligent role-playing.

I had a player that was charging a lot and after a session or two his armour was tattered and there was nothing he couldn't afford to repair it. Until such time occured much later he was effectively a Vagabond.

[GreenGhost]

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

I agree with you that the Palladium system isn't designed for that style of play, but I don't think it'd require much revamping at all. Then again I haven't started on it past mental planning. So I could be wrong about that. I'll definately find out though.

In order to make it work, you would have to:
-Alter ranged combat rules making it a lot harder to hit.
-Turn Rifts into an SDC setting, so that somebody isn't going to be killed or get a limb blown off every time they get shot.
-Probably some other stuff that neither of us have thought of.

You wouldn't have to do any of what you mentioned above to keep the game realistic. Limbs won't be getting blown of and characters won't be getting killed left and right. If so- it's due to how a character is being played. Think about some of the situations a character runs into in Rifts. If a soldier reacted to a similar situation in real life as players generally have their characters react in a game they'd be dead or crippled- period.

If I'm correct you were or are military, KC, so you should know what I'm trying to say here. Granted this is a game, but reaction to combat is generally the same.

This ain't RECON

I think there are other ways to induce intelligent role-playing.

I had a player that was charging a lot and after a session or two his armour was tattered and there was nothing he couldn't afford to repair it. Until such time occured much later he was effectively a Vagabond.

True- this isn't RECON- lol. I'm just planning on working on this for house rules for my players. I just wanted to hear the input of others

There are other ways to intruduce intelligent role-playing- true- I'm just working on one at a time.

[Killer Cyborg]

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

I agree with you that the Palladium system isn't designed for that style of play, but I don't think it'd require much revamping at all. Then again I haven't started on it past mental planning. So I could be wrong about that. I'll definately find out though.

In order to make it work, you would have to:
-Alter ranged combat rules making it a lot harder to hit.
-Turn Rifts into an SDC setting, so that somebody isn't going to be killed or get a limb blown off every time they get shot.
-Probably some other stuff that neither of us have thought of.

You wouldn't have to do any of what you mentioned above to keep the game realistic. Limbs won't be getting blown of and characters won't be getting killed left and right. If so- it's due to how a character is being played. Think about some of the situations a character runs into in Rifts. If a soldier reacted to a similar situation in real life as players generally have their characters react in a game they'd be dead or crippled- period.

Right now, anybody with a basic gun and WP has a 50% chance to hit anybody within 60' (IIRC).
You can try to hide behind cover, but unless that cover is mega-damage, it isn't going to do you any good (except as concealment).

And MD is far more deadly than SDC weapons that modern soldiers find themselves up against. If a modern solder gets shot, there's a good chance he's going to survive.
My brother (back in high school, before he went into the military) took a .40 caliber bullet to his knew, and he not only survived, but he recovered full use of his leg.
And there have been lots of people who get shot in the chest, or even head, with SDC weapons, who survive.
But an average MD pistol leaves a hole the size of a volleyball.
You get hit in a limb, that limb is gone.
You get hit in the head, your head is gone.
You get hit in the torso, you're going to be missing a hell of a lot of vital body parts. Heart, lungs, intestines, stomach, spine... any or all of these GONE.

And that's just for pistols.
Energy rifles leave holes the size of basketballs.

If I'm correct you were or are military, KC, so you should know what I'm trying to say here. Granted this is a game, but reaction to combat is generally the same.

Never been in the military, but I have friends and family who have been (or are still in).

I get your general point, which is that a lot of people play Rifts as a bunch of guys standing still, shooting at each other until somebody's armor gives out.
I've seen the same thing, and it's something that I am also against.
I've gotten into a ton of arguments about that sort of thing here.

I just don't think that Armor Penetration rules are the solution; there's already plenty of incentive to not get shot, if you play the game right.
The problem is that with the rules the way they are, even the best players with a the best GM are going to get shot sometimes.
Fairly often, really.
That's just the nature of the game.

[Natasha]

There are other ways to intruduce intelligent role-playing- true- I'm just working on one at a time.

I'm interested to see what you devise. Although I think you'll need more than a weekend to accomplish something with it.

[GreenGhost]

The problem is that the Palladium system isn't made for that style of play.
In order for it to make those rules make sense, you'd pretty much have to revamp the whole system (or, at least, the whole combat system).

I agree with you that the Palladium system isn't designed for that style of play, but I don't think it'd require much revamping at all. Then again I haven't started on it past mental planning. So I could be wrong about that. I'll definately find out though.

In order to make it work, you would have to:
-Alter ranged combat rules making it a lot harder to hit.
-Turn Rifts into an SDC setting, so that somebody isn't going to be killed or get a limb blown off every time they get shot.
-Probably some other stuff that neither of us have thought of.

You wouldn't have to do any of what you mentioned above to keep the game realistic. Limbs won't be getting blown of and characters won't be getting killed left and right. If so- it's due to how a character is being played. Think about some of the situations a character runs into in Rifts. If a soldier reacted to a similar situation in real life as players generally have their characters react in a game they'd be dead or crippled- period.

Right now, anybody with a basic gun and WP has a 50% chance to hit anybody within 60' (IIRC).
You can try to hide behind cover, but unless that cover is mega-damage, it isn't going to do you any good (except as concealment).

And MD is far more deadly than SDC weapons that modern soldiers find themselves up against. If a modern solder gets shot, there's a good chance he's going to survive.
My brother (back in high school, before he went into the military) took a .40 caliber bullet to his knew, and he not only survived, but he recovered full use of his leg.
And there have been lots of people who get shot in the chest, or even head, with SDC weapons, who survive.
But an average MD pistol leaves a hole the size of a volleyball.
You get hit in a limb, that limb is gone.
You get hit in the head, your head is gone.
You get hit in the torso, you're going to be missing a hell of a lot of vital body parts. Heart, lungs, intestines, stomach, spine... any or all of these GONE.

And that's just for pistols.
Energy rifles leave holes the size of basketballs.

If I'm correct you were or are military, KC, so you should know what I'm trying to say here. Granted this is a game, but reaction to combat is generally the same.

Never been in the military, but I have friends and family who have been (or are still in).

I get your general point, which is that a lot of people play Rifts as a bunch of guys standing still, shooting at each other until somebody's armor gives out.
I've seen the same thing, and it's something that I am also against.
I've gotten into a ton of arguments about that sort of thing here.

I just don't think that Armor Penetration rules are the solution; there's already plenty of incentive to not get shot, if you play the game right.
The problem is that with the rules the way they are, even the best players with a the best GM are going to get shot sometimes.
Fairly often, really.
That's just the nature of the game.

I agree with you with pretty much everything you said above. I'm not relying on the PV rules to be an all out solution, but a possible one. Hell- I could be completely wrong and it wouldn't be the first time, but IMO it's worth a shot to me. I'm not trying to change peoples' opinions here. I just want to see what their opinions are

The MDC Dispertion rule drives me crazy. I had a character shield another character while wearing "grounded" Violator (Canada version of SAMAS) from a medium ranged missile. The Violator Power Armor literally had under 5 (I think it was 2) MDC left. They player argued the MDC Disapation rule saying that after the 2 MDC the remaining MDC just disapates- lol.

I don't always agree with you in here, but you definately know your stuff, especially for being non-military

[GreenGhost]

There are other ways to intruduce intelligent role-playing- true- I'm just working on one at a time.

I'm interested to see what you devise. Although I think you'll need more than a weekend to accomplish something with it.

I've been thinking about it for a while now and know where to get my references, but still you're probably right about it taking more than this weekend.

How about me putting it this way... I'm going to "start" it this weekend

[Natasha]

There are other ways to intruduce intelligent role-playing- true- I'm just working on one at a time.

I'm interested to see what you devise. Although I think you'll need more than a weekend to accomplish something with it.

I've been thinking about it for a while now and know where to get my references, but still you're probably right about it taking more than this weekend.

How about me putting it this way... I'm going to "start" it this weekend

Fair enough.

[GreenGhost]

There are other ways to intruduce intelligent role-playing- true- I'm just working on one at a time.

I'm interested to see what you devise. Although I think you'll need more than a weekend to accomplish something with it.

I've been thinking about it for a while now and know where to get my references, but still you're probably right about it taking more than this weekend.

How about me putting it this way... I'm going to "start" it this weekend

Fair enough.

[Killer Cyborg]

The MDC Dispertion rule drives me crazy. I had a character shield another character while wearing "grounded" Violator (Canada version of SAMAS) from a medium ranged missile. The Violator Power Armor literally had under 5 (I think it was 2) MDC left. They player argued the MDC Disapation rule saying that after the 2 MDC the remaining MDC just disapates- lol.

Are you referring to the infamous "GI-Joe Rule," where the last bit of armor can soak up more than its remaining MDC value?
If so, then first and foremost, I think that rule is bunk.
Second, the rule is meant to be used with "common sense," which means that a person with 2 MDC left in their armor might be able to soak 5 MD, or 10... but probably not 15 or more MD.

I don't always agree with you in here, but you definately know your stuff, especially for being non-military

Thanks.

[Natasha]

The MDC Dispertion rule drives me crazy. I had a character shield another character while wearing "grounded" Violator (Canada version of SAMAS) from a medium ranged missile. The Violator Power Armor literally had under 5 (I think it was 2) MDC left. They player argued the MDC Disapation rule saying that after the 2 MDC the remaining MDC just disapates- lol.

The few times I GM the players don't know how much damage they take or have remaining except what I tell them.

It's descriptive in words not numbers. And that keeps them sort of wondering if they should charge the bunker or not.

[Natasha]

Haha, Natasha! You can't believe how many times I've said I hate the word blog!

I probably can believe it

[Library Ogre]

One thing to beware of is mechanics that seem neat and realistic, but that will be a PITA when you actually try to implement them in the game.

[GreenGhost]

The MDC Dispertion rule drives me crazy. I had a character shield another character while wearing "grounded" Violator (Canada version of SAMAS) from a medium ranged missile. The Violator Power Armor literally had under 5 (I think it was 2) MDC left. They player argued the MDC Disapation rule saying that after the 2 MDC the remaining MDC just disapates- lol.

Are you referring to the infamous "GI-Joe Rule," where the last bit of armor can soak up more than its remaining MDC value?
If so, then first and foremost, I think that rule is bunk.
Second, the rule is meant to be used with "common sense," which means that a person with 2 MDC left in their armor might be able to soak 5 MD, or 10... but probably not 15 or more MD.

I don't always agree with you in here, but you definately know your stuff, especially for being non-military

Thanks.

Yes- I've heard aboutthis "GI-Joe Rule," but didn't know what it was. I can see where it can work, but like you said it's, for the most part, "bunk."

[GreenGhost]

The MDC Dispertion rule drives me crazy. I had a character shield another character while wearing "grounded" Violator (Canada version of SAMAS) from a medium ranged missile. The Violator Power Armor literally had under 5 (I think it was 2) MDC left. They player argued the MDC Disapation rule saying that after the 2 MDC the remaining MDC just disapates- lol.

The few times I GM the players don't know how much damage they take or have remaining except what I tell them.

It's descriptive in words not numbers. And that keeps them sort of wondering if they should charge the bunker or not.

Nice!

[Natasha]

One thing to beware of is mechanics that seem neat and realistic, but that will be a PITA when you actually try to implement them in the game.

The almighty playtest

[GreenGhost]

One thing to beware of is mechanics that seem neat and realistic, but that will be a PITA when you actually try to implement them in the game.

I know what you mean. It might look good on paper, but not play out. I work with one of my players and have talked to him about the Energy Weapons and PV and that it'll be play tested with him and the others- lol.

[GreenGhost]

Something to consider: Most armor designed to be worn and fought in has certain locations that are fundamentally weaker than other places because they need to be flexible, most notably the neck and joints. The neck needs special attention because how it can as crucial as the head for a critical strike. I imagine some energy weapons, if used at the neck region, would decapitate a human target, rendering him as dead as if she got a head shot. Even if the weapon was not powerful enough to convert a human head in the helmet of MDC armor into a gory bowling ball certain nerves are present in the spine at that region. Shoot that and the victim is an instant quadriplegic. Either that or you render him mute by destroying the vocal chords, which opens up the possibility of death via suffocation if he or she can't get enough oxygen. My point is that you don't need a high PV weapon if your GM is evil enough.

Agreed. Some damage can be received by the wearer of the armor much like someone wearing a "bullet proof" vest.

[GreenGhost]

Okay- I didn't have the time needed to complete the Rifts PV idea this weekend. We had a party for my daughter's Birthday (she says, "hi" Misfit) at Chuck E. Cheese- lol. It's amazing how little you can get done with a bunch of 10 year old girls running around . I did get a good chunk of it out of the way though.

Below, with the help of the Rifts Convesion Book One, I've converted the AR it gives in the book to a PV. I'd like to hear evewryones' thoughts and any improvements that they can think of.

OBJECT: AR/PV

*Body Armor: Light (i.e. Padded, Plastic &
Lightweight Body Armor like the Huntsman,
Urban Warrior, Juicer, Plasticman, etc.): 13/5

*Body Armor: Power Armor (i.e. Glitter Boy,
Northern Gun Samson Power Armor, Flying
Titan Power Armor, etc.): 16/7

*Body Armor: Strong, but Light (i.e. Bushman,
Gladiator, Crusader, Explorer, Full Plate Body
Armor, etc.): 15/6

*Borgs (i.e. Both Light and Heavy; still working
on Borg Armor): 16/7

*Bots (i.e. Robots, Cyborgs, etc.): 17/8

*Vehicles: Armored (i.e. Mountaineer ATV,
GAW-M113 Improved APC, GAW-998
Improved Hummer Combat Utility Vehicle,
etc.): 14/6

*Vehicles: Military (i.e. CS Mark V, CS Death
Head Transport, Tanks, etc): 17/8

*Vehicles: Normal; Heavy (i.e. Triax MZ-10
Wilderness Crusader, etc.): 8/3

*Vehicles: Normal; Light (i.e. Standard Un-
Armored Automobiles, Motorcycles, Hovercycles,
etc.): 6/2

*Vehicles: Robot (i.e. CS Spider Walker, Titan
Power Armor Series, etc.): 18/9

This is all I have so far. I'll work on Energy & Kinetic Weapons this week and give each type of weapon a PV. The PV for a weapon will be determined by the type of Energy (laser, ion, particle beam, etc.) and the amount of energy output it's capable of. Kinetic weapons (i.e. railgun rounds, ram jet rounds, mini-missiles, etc.) will be easier- so I'll save those for last. I want to get the more difficult Energy Weapons done first.

[Natasha]

You use RECON's hit location table, right?

Or whichever you use I'd have to see it because it a roll of 5 or better (and in Rifts that pretty much every roll) a guy in Huntsman armour is going to pretty much die anytime he get shot?