Why cancel Nightbane: Shadows of Light?

[asajosh]

I admit i haven't read the whole thread yet, so please don't bite my head off if this has been brought up. How about distribute Shadows of Light (and any other out of print books for that matter) as downloadable .PDFs? Sell them for $10-$15 a piece, almost no overhead... Hell, you could have an Intern make a master copy with manuscripts and a scanner... think about it.

[asajosh]

I admit i haven't read the whole thread yet, so please don't bite my head off if this has been brought up. How about distribute Shadows of Light (and any other out of print books for that matter) as downloadable .PDFs? Sell them for $10-$15 a piece, almost no overhead... Hell, you could have an Intern make a master copy with manuscripts and a scanner... think about it.

You'd trust Galactus Kid (Brandon Aten) with a scanner? He's a hazard with a dustpan.

LOL, don't know the fellow personally so couldn't say... Dust pan hazzard? Really?

Fine fine, send me the manuscripts, I got nothing but time till the surgery. I'll use me own copy o' Adobe Acrobat and me own scanner, all I ask is a copy of each .PDF I make for personal use

[Avatara]

personally for the most part i liked sol. I never could get a feeling for the anetholes. (yes i know i spelled it wrong) So when I do my campains I ignore them. I thought the reapers were an interesting minor menace, one to throw at them while on an important mission as a red herring or as encounters for when the party is enjoying some r&r,or to have them as a tool to show some formerly good guyès snapping after the horrors of dark day. I liked the city and vampire write up the best. The one thing that aggravated me the most would have to be the dark slayer O.C.C. Do to the fact that they edited out the Templar order and left the occ as it was.

[LostOne]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this book actually published for a short while? I could have sworn I saw it on the shelf at my local gaming store but at the time hadn't played it in years so didn't pick it up (which if it was in fact this book, I'll kick myself for missing the opportunity to own it).

If it was actually published, and the only real reason it isn't being published now is because of Palladium's financial issues, why isn't it being offered online as a PDF?

It would take minimal man hours (I'm guessing less than 20) to get a PDF of it ready for sale, using a high speed high resolution scanner that a publishing company is likely to already have. You could sell it at $5 and break even on the man-hours spent digitalizing it with less than 50 sales. After that it's pure profit. That would help Palladium's financial difficulties I'm guessing.

If there's an extra copy of the book laying around the Palladium office, I'm sure some people out there would be willing to digitalize it for a free copy of the book, all it would cost Palladium then is the cost of that single hardcopy.

If the text is all there, why not do it this way? All that time wasted on editing a book, assembling it, purchasing the art, etc. Might as well recover some money from it. And there's always the option to sell hardcopies of it at a future date, many people who bought the PDF would still buy the book just to have a hardcopy they can keep in their backpack and use at gaming sessions where a computer isn't conveniently located. I know other gaming companies sell both hardcopy and digital versions and I know several people who have a digital and hardcopy of the same books, one for tabletop use and the digital copy to use on their laptop while away from their books, or the digital copy on their thumbdrive to read on their PC at work, etc.

[Marrowlight]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this book actually published for a short while?

Yup. Looking at my copy right now in fact.

[Warwolf]

If the text is all there, why not do it this way? All that time wasted on editing a book, assembling it, purchasing the art, etc. Might as well recover some money from it. And there's always the option to sell hardcopies of it at a future date, many people who bought the PDF would still buy the book just to have a hardcopy they can keep in their backpack and use at gaming sessions where a computer isn't conveniently located.

Just to clarify something: Having sold out of the original print run, Palladium has already broken even and then some on the cost of production. The decision to discontinue the book would have more to do with the fact that they don't feel it would sell well enough, quick enough to recoup printing costs this time around.

As far as PDF, none of their online material is up yet. So for now it is a moot point. As for it being offered in the future as a PDF, it might be a possibility (much like reprinting it) unless Kevin no longer feels it is representative of the product he wishes to sell. But who knows, we can only wait and see. Especially with the new sourcebook slated for early next year.

[Zenvis]

I will be getting the Minion Wars books, Just becasue they are Crossovers into HU and PF.......Maybe thay could work in a NB crossover book to Or just a small book about the size of a rifter. I wouldn't even mind if it was just a side story from the main minionwar books.

Holy Cow! It totally forgot Nightbane in the Devil/Daemon War! That should be mentioned! Curse me for not thinking of it myself.

[Warwolf]

I will be getting the Minion Wars books, Just becasue they are Crossovers into HU and PF.......Maybe thay could work in a NB crossover book to Or just a small book about the size of a rifter. I wouldn't even mind if it was just a side story from the main minionwar books.

Holy Cow! It totally forgot Nightbane in the Devil/Daemon War! That should be mentioned! Curse me for not thinking of it myself.

Nah, it is talked about in Hades. While they apparently know about Nightbane Earth there are a couple good reasons why the war won't spread there.

1) Comparitively hard to get there and back. Thus, not really a good jumping-off point.

2) Too hostile an atmosphere! The Nightlords don't like demons (with the notable exception of Lilith, but she's made her alliance already) and Nightbane aren't typically too fond of them either. Thus, Nightbane Earth is more trouble than it's worth.

[Lenwen]

I do not think the line is stagnent . IF one was to use the rifter material they could add quite a bit of stuff . AS a matter of fact threw the Rifter is exactly how I got into the nightbane setting . I at current have Nightbane Rule book as well as Between the Shadows. I am eagerly awaiting Nightlands as well as Glass Darkly. My Regular grp never does anything half - way . If I leave a small opening for possibly exploring another form of reality they then go balls to the wall kickin an screaming an bust the door down . So before I get them into the nightbane world TOO heavily I have to have ALL the core books lol . I told them I just recieved Hades an they were like SWEET shall I pack my bags ? I was like you actually WANT to GO to HELL ? oh the fun I shall have in there as the GM haha . Well thats my 2 cp's on this . An btw .. I do absolutly LOVE what I am reading on the Nightbane setting in Books 1 and 2 so far . Great works .


-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

I just as of this morning had help hunting down this very hard to find book an it has now been added to the small collection an should arrive by the end of next week . I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of this book since it was a hot bed of debate on being good or not so good .

-Lenwen.

[Avatara]

one way to get ahold of the book for its actual price or maybe a bit less. Is to go to your gaming store and ask the owner if he can get you a copy. You may find that his distributer has a few lying around that he was unable to get rid of. That is how I got my copy and all of the rifters after they were discontinued .

[Mike Taylor]

Ouch! Was digging around online, and found a copy for sale on Amazon. Only a 200 dollar bill. Woo Hoo!

They'll be sitting on that book for a very long time, too.

[Lenwen]

Today this morn I recieved my Copy of Shadows of Luclin . I will say this much . I really REALLY like it . Perhaps its simply due to me first time ever checking out the Nightbane setting an now have core book , between the shadows as well as Shadows of Luclin . Waitn on the other two books from my Xmas grab bag if it ever arrives anyways I think I might be a bit biased here heh but yeah in my opionion this is a VERY very good work an very well thought out on some of the consepts Good work Jason Vey and Palladium on this book

-Lenwen.

[Mike Taylor]

Shadows of Luclin is an EverQuest expansion.

[Lenwen]

Bah I ment Shadows of LIGHT .. haha my apologies . peeps . but yet I still LOVE that book I have a roomie that plays that everquest game prolly why I accidentally said that one haha again my apologies .


-Lenwen.

[LostOne]

[We may reprint the book at some point in the future (as in years in the future) or we may offer it as a PDF next year for a reasonable fee (we may be offering a number of our out of print books as PDF files in the year to come).

Any update on this? If the first print took that long to sell out, PDF would be the way to go and it's been more than a year since you posted this.

It would take few man-hours to get the book into PDF format, then all sales of it is pure profit after you sell the few copies needed to cover the conversion cost.

You already have the finished copy of the book, rather than let it sit in storage somewhere not making money, you might as well put it out in PDF and make money.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

It may have just been me, but I felt that there were a lot of things in SOL that not only didn't fit in with the overall RPG.

Fallen Guardians.. (The ultimate good guys just going bad..Lame)

The Gregorians who can apparently sense nightbane even though they aren't actually nightbane. (Which is odd in of itself but even more odd is that they can't mirrorwalk.. So not a whole lot of point having a creature that's almost a bane, but doesn't have the vital tools to combat the minions of the Nightlords.)

Vampires seducing minions of the Nightlords.. (Aren't these two fractions in direct competition withone another? They should be fighting over food not, having lame relationships.)

The whole thing just didn't seem to fit the setting.

[Warwolf]

It may have just been me, but I felt that there were a lot of things in SOL that not only didn't fit in with the overall RPG.

Fallen Guardians.. (The ultimate good guys just going bad..Lame)

The Gregorians who can apparently sense nightbane even though they aren't actually nightbane. (Which is odd in of itself but even more odd is that they can't mirrorwalk.. So not a whole lot of point having a creature that's almost a bane, but doesn't have the vital tools to combat the minions of the Nightlords.)

Vampires seducing minions of the Nightlords.. (Aren't these two fractions in direct competition withone another? They should be fighting over food not, having lame relationships.)

The whole thing just didn't seem to fit the setting.

I'll pretty much agree with those opinions, as well as there having been way too many unneeded beasties thrown in. I have discussed this with others, and one good explanation I've heard is that it seemed as though he had an idea for his own setting and rather than make it he shoe-horned it into a Nightbane supplement. It would explain the drastic departure in tone.

I, for one, hope the new book goes back toward the original feel of the setting.

[LostOne]

The whole thing just didn't seem to fit the setting.

That's always been my take. There's some good stuff in it, just not for a Nightbane game.

Which is why I assume Kevin doesn't like the work.

I don't get that. If he didn't like it, why did it go to the printers at all? I'm guessing he thought it was great until the initial fan reactions started getting back to him combined with low sales.

[LostOne]

He really needed to redo the whole book but didn't have the time to do it.

So shelve it until he has time. Palladium used to be more concerned about product quality, if it's really as bad as people say. I never saw it so can't judge for myself.

[Lenwen]

Probly couldn't shelve it since he had comitments and agreements to get to the printers. I guess he edited it as best as he could with the little time he had.

I dont know about that ... From everything I've seen read an heard Kevin has the sole power to say yea or nae .. on virtually any product his company puts out at all .

I have a copy of SoL an I like alot of whats in the book itself . I use some of it time to time . Just not in the Nightbane dimension but rather in Rifts Earth setting heh .

-Lenwen.

[Warwolf]

Probly couldn't shelve it since he had comitments and agreements to get to the printers. I guess he edited it as best as he could with the little time he had.

I dont know about that ... From everything I've seen read an heard Kevin has the sole power to say yea or nae .. on virtually any product his company puts out at all .

I have a copy of SoL an I like alot of whats in the book itself . I use some of it time to time . Just not in the Nightbane dimension but rather in Rifts Earth setting heh .

You've got that right for the most part Lenwen. Of course, there is still a pretty good explanation for the plight of SoL. Almost any writer (myself included) can tell you that they've written something in their career (typically early) that they thought was as awesome as it gets. Then, they step away for a while and work on other things.

Before long, a year or more goes by and they happen to stumble across the piece while re-arranging papers or cleaning off a hard drive. Once they shake the dust of and read it... it's CRAP! They find themselves thinking "What was I on when I wrote this garbage?"

In Kevin's case, he has admitted to not being the best one to wrap his head around the Nightbane setting for various reasons (one of which is that it isn't a setting that he created). So, it could have easily been the case that he got a manuscript that wasn't nearly up to par and did his best to put together something that the fans would like only to have it fall flat on its face in the marketplace. Of course, I'd say that with the overall quality of stuff that Palladium produces, they're entitled to a stinkbomb every great now and again.

[Vidynn]

Of course, I'd say that with the overall quality of stuff that Palladium produces, they're entitled to a stinkbomb every great now and again.

aw, it's not that bad, as a matter of fact, I dont consider it a bad book at all. the others in the series were better, yeah, but still, there were a lot of nice ideas in it.

maybe the book would have even worked better without KS who "has admitted to not being the best one to wrap his head around the Nightbane setting for various reasons" fumbling around with it.

[LostOne]

maybe the book would have even worked better without KS who "has admitted to not being the best one to wrap his head around the Nightbane setting for various reasons" fumbling around with it.

Sometimes I wonder (but hope it doesn't really happen because then Palladium might go under) how many great manuscripts Kevin is sitting on that might never see print until Kevin were to retire or die...

[Warwolf]

maybe the book would have even worked better without KS who "has admitted to not being the best one to wrap his head around the Nightbane setting for various reasons" fumbling around with it.

I've been privy to a couple of issues with the original manuscript. Believe me, it wasn't Kevin's doing...

As far as whether or not the book was good, that is obviously a matter of opinion. I was just offering my semi-professional one on the issue.

[Specter]

Nightbane would be my favorite rpg setting of all time. I know that if there is any book that I would buy from Palladium it would be another Nightbane book. I own all of them though... and I've bought quite a few of your other titles but Nightbane is the only one that I'm still interested in running. It's the only setting out there that I can't say that someone else is doing a better job. WoD doesn't hold a candle to the flavor of Nightbane.

It would be nice if someone could bring the story of Nightbane forward... I personally liked what Jason Vey did.

[Misfit KotLD]

Specter, check the press releases and such. There is one in production. I do wish we'd get more titular than "Nightbane Sourcebook" though.

[Jefffar]

How does Nightbane Sourcebook #5 strike you Misfit?

[Misfit KotLD]

How does Nightbane Sourcebook #5 strike you Misfit?

Craptacularly.

[Specter]

Specter, check the press releases and such. There is one in production. I do wish we'd get more titular than "Nightbane Sourcebook" though.

There were rumors of such a book last time I was on here... a while ago.

[Misfit KotLD]

Did those rumors include mention in press releases?

[LostOne]

There were rumors of such a book last time I was on here... a while ago.

How long ago was that? It might have been when Shadows of Light was still getting worked on.

[Specter]

I own Shadows of Light... owned if before I left. So, probably not.

[Warwolf]

Specter, check the press releases and such. There is one in production. I do wish we'd get more titular than "Nightbane Sourcebook" though.

There were rumors of such a book last time I was on here... a while ago.

How's this for a "rumor," The Nightbane Survival Guide will be the next manuscript Kev goes over for the purposes of evaluation for print. That means that other than products that are currently in production (such as Dyval and Dead Reign) this book is next in line. That's effectively the word from Kev himself as per our conversation the week before last. He's shooting for the first quarter of '09 if not earlier for its release. The reason for its long delay? Same as everything else, the logjam with Dyval and Project X has prevented Kevin from taking a look at it. So keep your fingers crossed, folks.

[Misfit KotLD]

Specter, check the press releases and such. There is one in production. I do wish we'd get more titular than "Nightbane Sourcebook" though.

There were rumors of such a book last time I was on here... a while ago.

How's this for a "rumor," The Nightbane Survival Guide will be the next manuscript Kev goes over for the purposes of evaluation for print. That means that other than products that are currently in production (such as Dyval and Dead Reign) this book is next in line. That's effectively the word from Kev himself as per our conversation the week before last. He's shooting for the first quarter of '09 if not earlier for its release. The reason for its long delay? Same as everything else, the logjam with Dyval and Project X has prevented Kevin from taking a look at it. So keep your fingers crossed, folks.

And much improved over "Nightbane Sourcebook."

[Specter]

Well, if they do put out another nightbane book... I'll just have to buy it. Unless it's a bunch of reprints of stuff in other books. That's bothersome.

[LostOne]

I'd be surprised if there is a lot of reprints. There's too much untouched potential in this setting to bother with reprints.

It takes a game getting good and bloated like Rifts before you can really justify reprinting something because not everyone will own the old book and the material is relevant to the new one, etc.

[Warwolf]

I don't know what all is going to get cut, but I can tell you there is a large amount of new material.

Yes, I've seen the manuscript.

How?

I'm half of the team that wrote it.

Now, before I get an influx of PMs asking about the book, I need people to remember something. It is still an unreviewed manuscript at this point, which means anything that is currently in it is up in the air. So, I can't be definitive or talk too much about what I and my writing partner put in there, but I can at least tell you that we are trying to take Nightbane "back to its roots" so to speak.

Now that the cat is fully out of the bag, I want to apologize for being elusive and dropping hints about the new book. I didn't want to get your guys' and gals' hopes up too much about a book that may or may not have seen the light of day (but at the same time I wanted to keep some buzz going about the potential for new stuff). After Kev started mentioning to people at GenCon that I was part of the writing team tackling Nightbane, I figured it is a pretty safe bet that he plans on putting out our book. So, it definitely looks like we'll have some new material by early next year (if not sooner). But we all know that things can happen in the meantime, so don't send me hate-mail if it's release is pushed back further, okay?

[Specter]

Vicious talents, and more nightland creatures?

[Warwolf]

Vicious talents, and more nightland creatures?

Well, I can't say for certain. Some new talents were included in the manuscript (but might be cut), but no Nightlands creatures were (but might be added... though I doubt it).

[Misfit KotLD]

...so don't send me hate-mail if it's release is pushed back further, okay?

What are valid reasons for sending you hate mail?

[Warwolf]

What are valid reasons for sending you hate mail?

This is supposed to be a relatively family-friendly board... so I can't even begin to list them.

[Misfit KotLD]

What are valid reasons for sending you hate mail?

This is supposed to be a relatively family-friendly board... so I can't even begin to list them.

Just checking.

[Warwolf]

Thanks for offering your perspective and additional insight on the matter, Jason. And from one of the new writers, thanks for sticking your neck out there to help keep Nightbane going (all debate of the quality of that effort aside). I can only hope that the new book leads to a number of new supplements for the line and a re-invigorated fanbase, because you're right that it needs more support.

[Dave the dragon]

Thought Id resurface to look for one of my favorite books, only to find its been cancelled. *sigh* Same old complaints: Cant keep a line alive, but putting out new ones; focus on one to the exclusion of most all else and wonder why we the fans move on. pity, guess I'll leave again.

[NMI]

Thought Id resurface to look for one of my favorite books, only to find its been cancelled. *sigh* Same old complaints: Cant keep a line alive, but putting out new ones; focus on one to the exclusion of most all else and wonder why we the fans move on. pity, guess I'll leave again.

You realize, that the book "Shadows of Light" has been out of print for a couple of years now right?

[Dave the dragon]

Thought Id resurface to look for one of my favorite books, only to find its been cancelled. *sigh* Same old complaints: Cant keep a line alive, but putting out new ones; focus on one to the exclusion of most all else and wonder why we the fans move on. pity, guess I'll leave again.

You realize, that the book "Shadows of Light" has been out of print for a couple of years now right?

Which should show how rarely I bother to come anymore. Ive voiced my complaints in another thread, though. When the new book comes out (if it ever does) I'll look, but probably not buy. I had hoped that the "Shadows of Light" was representing a new direction, and a very interesting one. Hopefully, some of it will be returned in one form or another. Im sorry Mr Vey had some bad luck, and hope he will try other things for PB. His is a talent that could serve very well in the future.

[Misfit KotLD]

Thought Id resurface to look for one of my favorite books, only to find its been cancelled. *sigh* Same old complaints: Cant keep a line alive, but putting out new ones; focus on one to the exclusion of most all else and wonder why we the fans move on. pity, guess I'll leave again.

You realize, that the book "Shadows of Light" has been out of print for a couple of years now right?

Not to mention that whole Nightbane Sourcebook Five.

[Dave the dragon]

It probably got bumped for "Dead Reign" or whatever the new line is. More books no one in my area will even open, yet the few well recieved lines wither away.

[Dave the dragon]

welcome to the boards, Karsus