Rune Weapon Creation

[Talavar]

Readers of most Palladium books know that rune weapons are intelligent items with their own personalities, and require the death of some sort of greater being to create.

My question is: is the greater being sacrificed to create a new intelligence in the weapon, and that essence is consumed to fuel new powers chosen by the weapon's creator, or are they actually trapped in the weapon, becoming that item's intelligence, and it's powers are their old powers?

I could really see it going either way, and I'm not sure of a definite ruling from PB. In favour of the first option (weapons have an unique personality born out of the sacrifice) is the fact that Atlantean rune masters can basically create rune weapons with uniform, repeatable powers - each Sword of Atlantis is basically the same, if tremendously powerful.

If it's the second route, how does trapping Bill, Godling of Cheese Appreciation one time, and a Major Earth elemental another, get you to those uniform abilities? It might also allow them to tailor the necessary alignments to be of suitable use. You're less likely to want to go around killing a bunch of your moral-compatriots to make weapons your probably less-powerful allies can use; sure, some evil people are going to hate other evil people as well as good people, but at some point it becomes self-defeating to eternall trap all those evil greater beings in weapons, rather than trying to get those same greater beings in your side.

And if it is the second route, why don't the trapped beings retain their whole range of magic abilities instead of a light smattering? And how do the typically evil creators of rune weapons end up with so many evil rune weapons?

[Ice Dragon]

IMHO, most "good" rune weapons are powered by beings who "sacrificed" themselve for the greater good or where dying and wanted to continue to fight against evil. Most evil weapons are powered my being who where bonded to the weapon against their will by the rune smith - on the other hand some evil being wanted to continue their evil ways after their death.

Rune magic is a strange sort of magical discipline. So it depends on the "power source", the rune smith/mage and the power level of the weapon with which powers a newly created weapon is forged. IMHO, most of the power of the empowering being is need to make the weapon indestructable.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Palladium Fantasy makes it explicity clear. the being sacrafised is actually trapped in a pocket dimension contained within the rune weapon itself.

[cornholioprime]

IMHO, most "good" rune weapons are powered by beings who "sacrificed" themselve for the greater good or where dying and wanted to continue to fight against evil.

Actually, most books in Palladium that speak of the subject say that Good Rune Weapons were made by evil entities who wanted to have fun knowing that the creature inside would be trapped for all time, even though they wisely knew that someday, somehow most of these weapons would fall into the hands of good.

Subsequently, beings trapped in Rune Weapons want to doo good/evil in the world per their respective alignments, if only to pass the time.

Most evil weapons are powered my being who where bonded to the weapon against their will by the rune smith - on the other hand some evil being wanted to continue their evil ways after their death.

I know of NO canon instance whereby ANY creature actually volunteered to be encased in one of these things.

If you have a book or books that state the contrary, I'd be interested in knowing which ones they are.

IMHO, most of the power of the empowering being is need to make the weapon indestructable.

Not that complicated.

Rifts: Atlantis states that it is simply the act of binding the Life Force to the Weapon in question that makes the thing indestructible; implied reasoning from the text being that the Weapon can't be destroyed until the Life Force is removed, and that the Life Force can't be removed unless the weapon is destroyed.

[Talavar]

No comment then on how consistent types of rune weapons are created from diverse & sundry trapped beings?

[cornholioprime]

No comment then on how consistent types of rune weapons are created from diverse & sundry trapped beings?

Why would you really need a comment??

The vast majority of those Weps from Lesser to Greatest simply have a largely consistent set of abilities, probably because of the magicks involved.

The life force is, apparently, nothing more than a catalyst.

What else do you want us to say?

[Ice Dragon]

IMHO, most "good" rune weapons are powered by beings who "sacrificed" themselve for the greater good or where dying and wanted to continue to fight against evil.

Actually, most books in Palladium that speak of the subject say that Good Rune Weapons were made by evil entities who wanted to have fun knowing that the creature inside would be trapped for all time, even though they wisely knew that someday, somehow most of these weapons would fall into the hands of good.

Subsequently, beings trapped in Rune Weapons want to doo good/evil in the world per their respective alignments, if only to pass the time.

Most evil weapons are powered my being who where bonded to the weapon against their will by the rune smith - on the other hand some evil being wanted to continue their evil ways after their death.

I know of NO canon instance whereby ANY creature actually volunteered to be encased in one of these things.

If you have a book or books that state the contrary, I'd be interested in knowing which ones they are.

IMHO, most of the power of the empowering being is need to make the weapon indestructable.

Not that complicated.

Rifts: Atlantis states that it is simply the act of binding the Life Force to the Weapon in question that makes the thing indestructible; implied reasoning from the text being that the Weapon can't be destroyed until the Life Force is removed, and that the Life Force can't be removed unless the weapon is destroyed.

IIRC, the Library of Belthan (sp?) has it stated for some rune weapons.

[cornholioprime]

Actually, most books in Palladium that speak of the subject say that Good Rune Weapons were made by evil entities who wanted to have fun knowing that the creature inside would be trapped for all time, even though they wisely knew that someday, somehow most of these weapons would fall into the hands of good.

i've never read this anywhere.
it must be a later Rifts reference you speak of, A]]I'd like to know where you read that, so I could see what is printed on the subject.

B]] Where in the Palladium Releases do they speak of allowing Player Characters to create Rune Weapons?
I'm curious as to what they've come up with, rules, abilities, etc.
See how it compares to our "house rules" as it were.

A]]One of the most definitive Sources is Rifts Atlantis.

I believe that they also cut-and-paste that into the Rifts Book of Magic.

B]]They don't.

Rune Magic is supposed to be SO damned rare, that 99% of the people in the Megaverse believe that ALL Rune Weapons ever encountered came from the Reign of the Old Ones (and in truth, while the Splugorth make tons of their own, newer weapons, the vast majority really do seem to have been created 50,000 years ago, and another batch of them cooked up by the Dwarves and Elves in their titanic wars later on, durng the Time of A Thousand Magicks.)

[Mouser13]

Readers of most Palladium books know that rune weapons are intelligent items with their own personalities, and require the death of some sort of greater being to create.

My question is: is the greater being sacrificed to create a new intelligence in the weapon, and that essence is consumed to fuel new powers chosen by the weapon's creator, or are they actually trapped in the weapon, becoming that item's intelligence, and it's powers are their old powers?

I could really see it going either way, and I'm not sure of a definite ruling from PB. In favour of the first option (weapons have an unique personality born out of the sacrifice) is the fact that Atlantean rune masters can basically create rune weapons with uniform, repeatable powers - each Sword of Atlantis is basically the same, if tremendously powerful.

If it's the second route, how does trapping Bill, Godling of Cheese Appreciation one time, and a Major Earth elemental another, get you to those uniform abilities? It might also allow them to tailor the necessary alignments to be of suitable use. You're less likely to want to go around killing a bunch of your moral-compatriots to make weapons your probably less-powerful allies can use; sure, some evil people are going to hate other evil people as well as good people, but at some point it becomes self-defeating to eternall trap all those evil greater beings in weapons, rather than trying to get those same greater beings in your side.

And if it is the second route, why don't the trapped beings retain their whole range of magic abilities instead of a light smattering? And how do the typically evil creators of rune weapons end up with so many evil rune weapons?

I would look at it like Techno-wizard you make the sword and then the enity become the fuel. A little be like the new techno-wizardy items that tolkeen used by traping enity in the items.

[JTwig]

Ah but the problem is that in atlantis it states that rune magic is an off-shoot of bio-wizardry, not techno-wizardry.

Agreed. PFRPG says in a few books that the Dwarves used Bio-Wizardry to develop rune magic. So while comparisons to TW will work, to a limited point, it not very accurate.

[Jefram_denkar]

Their is more then one way to make rune weapons. That much seems clear.

But it dose make you wonder how many differnet ways could you do it??>

[csbioborg]

If you have a book or books that state the contrary, I'd be interested in knowing which ones they are.


China Books 2 have similar weapons to Rune Weapons. I think the poster had those confused with actual Rune Weapons. Those are not indestrutable but tend to actually give more power than a Rune weapon they have 16 unique power normally where the good ones have 12.

Not all volenteer it just states some do

[Jefram_denkar]

Well first off I would count the sword smiths of Rifts Japan as one type (they are a form of rune weapon).

Second is the way used by Palladium dwarfs and the Spugorth.

Bio wizardy would also counts as being related to it.

The rifts China stuff may count but I would half to reread to be sure.

I know rune armor is not indestructable compaired to weapons so dose that counts as a different sub school of Rune Item???

It also would depend on if you would consider Holy weapons to be a form of rune weapon (While they are listed in the same section their is a clear divide between them and "normal" rune items.

To be honest those are the only ones that come to mind. I would have to sit down and reread the books to see if anything else would count.

[cornholioprime]

It also would depend on if you would consider Holy weapons to be a form of rune weapon (While they are listed in the same section their is a clear divide between them and "normal" rune items.

The difference between holy Weapons and Rune Artifacts that have been made the "normal" way, with Good souls, is that the Holy Weapons don't drink souls and aren't sentient.

The issue and concept of Holy Weapons seem to have only been touched upon in Rifts: Atlantis and never revisited or expounded upon again.

[Jefram_denkar]

It also would depend on if you would consider Holy weapons to be a form of rune weapon (While they are listed in the same section their is a clear divide between them and "normal" rune items.

The difference between holy Weapons and Rune Artifacts that have been made the "normal" way, with Good souls, is that the Holy Weapons don't drink souls and aren't sentient.

The issue and concept of Holy Weapons seem to have only been touched upon in Rifts: Atlantis and never revisited or expounded upon again.

Needs to be expanded on.

[9voltkilowatt]

Runic Armor:

1. PFRPG, The Western Empire, pgs 221 - 222, The Hand of Tezuan.
2. PFRPG, Library of Bletherad, pgs 98 - 99, Ironshoes.

Both are indestructible and mention that there is an entire suit, the Hand of Tezuan even goes on to say the protected part can not be harmed in any way.

Playable Races capable of making runic items:

Pantheons of the Megaverse, pgs 166, Asgardian Dwarves. 75% of Asgardian Dwarves are Rune Masters.

Anvil Galaxy, pgs 45 - 46, Dwarven Guildmasters A.K.A. anvil Dwarves. 35% of Dwarven Guildmasters are versed in the ways of rune magic.

Rifts Japan, pgs 49 - 49, Traditional Samurai Warrior A.K.A. The "True" Samurai. Required to be 12th level or higher Traditional Samurai Warrior.

[Grandil]

Runic Armor:

1. PFRPG, The Western Empire, pgs 221 - 222, The Hand of Tezuan.
2. PFRPG, Library of Bletherad, pgs 98 - 99, Ironshoes.

Both are indestructible and mention that there is an entire suit, the Hand of Tezuan even goes on to say the protected part can not be harmed in any way.

Playable Races capable of making runic items:

Pantheons of the Megaverse, pgs 166, Asgardian Dwarves. 75% of Asgardian Dwarves are Rune Masters.

Anvil Galaxy, pgs 45 - 46, Dwarven Guildmasters A.K.A. anvil Dwarves. 35% of Dwarven Guildmasters are versed in the ways of rune magic.

Rifts Japan, pgs 49 - 49, Traditional Samurai Warrior A.K.A. The "True" Samurai. Required to be 12th level or higher Traditional Samurai Warrior.

ADD the Greater Cyclops of Pantheons of the megaverse-100%, &
Lizard Mages from either the old conversion book, or the new revised, not sure what PGs.

[9voltkilowatt]

Runic Armor:

1. PFRPG, The Western Empire, pgs 221 - 222, The Hand of Tezuan.
2. PFRPG, Library of Bletherad, pgs 98 - 99, Ironshoes.

Both are indestructible and mention that there is an entire suit, the Hand of Tezuan even goes on to say the protected part can not be harmed in any way.

Playable Races capable of making runic items:

Pantheons of the Megaverse, pgs 166, Asgardian Dwarves. 75% of Asgardian Dwarves are Rune Masters.

Anvil Galaxy, pgs 45 - 46, Dwarven Guildmasters A.K.A. anvil Dwarves. 35% of Dwarven Guildmasters are versed in the ways of rune magic.

Rifts Japan, pgs 49 - 49, Traditional Samurai Warrior A.K.A. The "True" Samurai. Required to be 12th level or higher Traditional Samurai Warrior.

ADD the Greater Cyclops of Pantheons of the megaverse-100%, &
Lizard Mages from either the old conversion book, or the new revised, not sure what PGs.

I knew about the Greater Cyclops but I don't count them because I don't consider "fluff" text to actually be rule. But I did forget about the Lizard Mage.

Rifts: Conversion Book One, pgs 143 - 145, Lizard Mage. 25% (any who are techno-wizards) possess the secrets of rune magic (they will NEVER share/teach this coveted, lost mystic art).

[Grandil]

Greater Cyclops (Godlings) Are npc's, & I somewhat agree with you.
Maybe you should ask my 2 mated pair about their existence-Remember
that this is Versimilitude, NOT Reality. I got schooled on that earlier-
Thanx, Asajosh. BTW thier names are Beauty, & Stud-eh, they have PB's
of 6
G

[9voltkilowatt]

... Maybe you should ask my 2 mated pair about their existance-Remember
that this is Versimilitude, NOT Reality. I got schooled on that earlier-
Thanx, Asajosh. ...

Are you talking to me? Cause if so you lost me right about here.

[Grandil]

Yes, 9voltkilowatt, I am, versimilitude Mirrors Reality-It isn't reality. This is
a sticking point for alot rule-lawyers; not that I'm saying you are_no sarcasm, serious

[Lenwen]

My question is: is the greater being sacrificed to create a new intelligence in the weapon, and that essence is consumed to fuel new powers chosen by the weapon's creator, or are they actually trapped in the weapon, becoming that item's intelligence, and it's powers are their old powers?

The way I personally see this is
The being which is going to be made into the rune item has to either want to be placed into it or has to be forcibly be placed into the Creation process of the weapon itself .
Know how all them japanese Katana's are folded thousands of times in the process to create a much stronger an durable blade ..
I personally see the Greater being slowly being consumed in the "folding" process of the weapon itself .
So basically I feel the being is trapped in a limbo like dimension that the whole entirity of that dimension contains this one being . Which also allows for his/hers/its magical an psionical powers to also be manipulated upon our plane of existance.

Thats just me 2 cp's worth tho ..

-Lenwen.

[Lenwen]

Runic Armor:

1. PFRPG, The Western Empire, pgs 221 - 222, The Hand of Tezuan.
2. PFRPG, Library of Bletherad, pgs 98 - 99, Ironshoes.

Both are indestructible and mention that there is an entire suit, the Hand of Tezuan even goes on to say the protected part can not be harmed in any way.

Playable Races capable of making runic items:

Pantheons of the Megaverse, pgs 166, Asgardian Dwarves. 75% of Asgardian Dwarves are Rune Masters.

Anvil Galaxy, pgs 45 - 46, Dwarven Guildmasters A.K.A. anvil Dwarves. 35% of Dwarven Guildmasters are versed in the ways of rune magic.

Rifts Japan, pgs 49 - 49, Traditional Samurai Warrior A.K.A. The "True" Samurai. Required to be 12th level or higher Traditional Samurai Warrior.

ADD the Greater Cyclops of Pantheons of the megaverse-100%, &
Lizard Mages from either the old conversion book, or the new revised, not sure what PGs.

I knew about the Greater Cyclops but I don't count them because I don't consider "fluff" text to actually be rule. But I did forget about the Lizard Mage.

Rifts: Conversion Book One, pgs 143 - 145, Lizard Mage. 25% (any who are techno-wizards) possess the secrets of rune magic (they will NEVER share/teach this coveted, lost mystic art).

heh kinda makes me curious now as to what exactly you call fluff since you just called the write up of an entire race as "fluff" lol
-Lenwen.

[Grandil]

Lenwen is somewhat right, but I now see the point you're trying to make
9volt, Greater Cyclops are a sub-Species-A Godling tho.

[Cinos]

The way I see Runic Weapons are souls encased in items (weather willingly put there, or being stolen / trapped souls), how they get into the weapon is more widly varied. The power of it is determined by the general power of the soul inside (i.e Jimmy the 12 year old kid isn't gonna make much of a weapon, more so considering the effort to make it, but Rurga would make something of a considerable weapon assuming you could pull it off), but also by the power and skill of the Runesmith making the item. Finally, it's abilities are choosen by the smith, but think of it as an proper aligning. For example, if a smith uses an Earth Elemental Soul, but forces it to use normal wizard spells (or worse, Air Spells), it could be able to, but not very well, and it would likely be a very angry weapon that's hard to control, but if he choose to create a weapon with Earth magic spells, it would be much more proficiant and capable, and hopefully, a bit more loyal and predictable in it's personaility.

Just my 2 Cents into it.

[9voltkilowatt]

I called it fluff simply because the write up provided doesn't really add much to the already established cyclops. This isn't to say I consider all write ups to be fluff ...but this one certainly counts in my book.

As for the Greater Cyclops being able to make runic items I have to say I don't use it in my games; if it's not in the "rules" section of a race\class write up then I simply ignore it. The write up is to describe the racial flavor and all the things that go along with that, for example in the Greater Cyclops write up it says they can make runic items ...and if that had been in the stat block as well then sure, I'll use it but otherwise I discount it as an ability they possess.

[Grandil]

Now I see what u mean. It needs more....... ur right.

[AlanGunhouse]

There is a character called the Blade Mage in a Rifter issue who can create a lesser rune weapon using a spell of legend from the class, by using a portion of their own life force. Some Samurai and Tengu can create true Samurai Swords, which are effectively rune weapons. Some Cyclopses can create limited types of rune weapons.

[Starmage21]

System-wise. Rune weapons are all basically powerful TW items that have 1 distinct feature: They have their own supply of PPE that comes from the life force trapped within.


I once tried to expand on a custom Rune Smith O.C.C. that could modify existing TW weapons by inscribing runes on them and trapping a being inside to give it it's own source of PPE, and this was their primary "adventuring magic", or magic that they could use while on the road.

They wouldve had a second set of magic that deals with directly and intentionally forging a true rune weapon, but that process took months of time. So it was only viable during downtime, and could not be completed wholly. The finished product of the forging process was a "proto-rune weapon" that must be used on a dying creature of appropriate power level to capture its life force. Only then would it become a fully functional rune weapon.