Do you support the Coalition? Come vote.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well said also, but as I was saying. A lot of these line soldiers have no real education. They do not know that the Debee child is harmless. For all they know, that Debee can rip them apart with its bare hands. And thats what has been taught to line soldiers. So in a way, they are brain washed zombies who do not know any better. Of course some are evil and just enjoying killing. I think thats why you see a lot of Special Forces Soldiers look the other way when they are supposed to carry out these orders. First of all Cs SF tend to be well educated, they spend a lot of time in the suck behind enemy lines so they know that a lot of the propaganda the cs puts out is bs and they tend to look the other way. SF are free thinkers

Where does it say all this about the Coalitions Special Forces ??

What part?

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well the CS Special Forces "like the Ranger, is among the most likely to fraternize with the enemy." However it's more of a matter of conveinance as they are described as being far less tolerant than the Ranger, it's more a matter of having and cultivating good contacts.

[Lenwen]

I'm just curious how someone who believes the CS to be evil ever made it to the rank of Colonel.

That little spot of brown on the nose ...

Does wonders for ones career ...

[Lenwen]

Your true right to live ends when someone, or something, ends your life. It's pretty much that simple.

Does a god get to choose whether to end a mortal's life? Sure, no question. Problem is, if he ends the wrong life he could start the end of his own by the loss of worshippers which means the loss of godhood.

Yeah, I mean I played a Godling who hated all gods and most powerful creatures because he did not like the fact that they thought they were the rulers of other life forms just because they held more cosmic power....he had an Anarchist alignment also. It was weird...but his be leafs were part of his Morals and Code. He grew up feeling every living thing should be in control of there own destiny and bow to no one. He used to mess with the coalition high command all the time Like one time he was able to place a Black rose on Proseks Throne. That took 3 weeks of game time playing 4 days a week to accomplish...I was almost caught twice. But I was a very powerful Godling also. At that point I was level 14 and growing BORED not board of being so powerful.

HAHAHA
black rose on the thrown ... priceless ...
I must know how you got a Godling that far into Chi-Town with out being discovored for REAL lmao ..
Sweet way to play it tho if ya ask me ..

[Lenwen]

I'll say one thing.......without the CS, RIFTS wouldn't be RIFTS....lol........if you know what I mean.....

naa it would be rifts .. we just would need you to create a villan as nasty as them thuur Coalition peeps

[Xenogears]

I'll say one thing.......without the CS, RIFTS wouldn't be RIFTS....lol........if you know what I mean.....

Then what would RIFTS be like if all Magic and Psionics where stamped out of the game.

[Lenwen]

You know I just looked at the poll stats and 99 of you so called freedom lovers say you kill CS any time you see them, and you say the CS is homocidal at least the CS has OPENLY declared war on all magic users and D-bees.

Its one thing to attack the military arm of the CS when spotted ...
Its entirly another thing to attack women an children of a Debee population ...

Implying were more blood thirsty for attacks against a military that is known for activly seeking genocide on virtually all other lifeforms


Nice ..

[Lenwen]

K20, there is something important that I thought you'd have picked up from watching the news....

You can never argue with a fanatic. In their mind, it's all justified. Nevermind the fact that humanity itself already has proven throughout its own history that women and children are are easily capable of killing. Suicide bombings are especially popular to use kids for.

Thats absolutly right ... damn fanatic's anways ...

Nevermind all that...the CS will shoot women and children of alien species. Ergo, by that notion alone, all the people who desperately want to be white knights have to go shooting any CS people they see and never get it into their minds that they're making the situation much worse.

lmfao ...

Nevermind thier on a continuos genocidal war against all other lifeforms ??
How can you nevermind something of that magnitude ??

The 99 people who went with "I kill the CS on sight" don't seem to have a clue how escalation works. If a squad of CS troopers is killed on patrol or investigating a small town...then a lot more CS shows up to find out why. While the team of multi-cultural badasses who killed the patrol are capable of taking down a small patrol and thinks it's done a great thing defending a spot from the eeeeeeevil CS...all it's really done is call an load of attention to that area. Now, whatever town they were hoping to defend or keep off the radar is guaranteed to get crushed and the people exterminated.

At this point its blatently obvious that the CS is not there to save an grace the populace with anything other then gevious harm destruction an death ...

So when you see a CS patrol ... Why would you NOT take popshots at them or even take them out prior to them doing that to you .. aint that called survival ?

Once you take out a patrol sure they "MIGHT" send out more troops to investigate ... but that wont be for some time ... enough time so that you could hide or evac the local Debee population away for a while ...

What good has been done here? The CS is still very much alive and kicking, the propaganda machine has even more evidence to show the citizens that the d-bees are evil and dangerous (this patrol was killed near/in a d-bee town, after all), CS soldiers that might have sympathized at one point with d-bees are now galvanized against it because they lost friends to d-bee attacks, and a town of helpless d-bees has been eliminated.

Unless Atlantis decides to take out all of the Coalition with out regaurd the CS will always be around live an kicking ...

The GOOD that has been done is that the local debee population has time to now evac or take nessassary precautions to avoid CS detection when they send more troops out the way of the small town again ... if they do at all ...

What have the white knights accomplished?

A greater good then the patrol was up to ...
With out a doubt ...

[Jesterzzn]

Thing is Al, that is exactly how a good bunch of GMs handle the CS. In my experience the average GM uses them as simple disposable enemies much like goblins and orcs were used in D&D.

Does it make a licks worth of sense? No. Is it the pervassive attitude amoung Rifts players? You betcha.

In fact, in the few pick up games I have run I have recieved more complaints from the way I would run the CS than just about anything else. And all I would really do is have the CS use standard military redundancy. Ya know, those hyper-advanced super tactics of radio checks and waypoints.

Actual quote from a game of mine (paraphrased):

"What do you mean two Skycycles passed overhead? It's only been forty minutes since the last patrol."

Of course I explained that when the patrol didn't check in and missed its waypoint, they sent the Skycycles to check up. Complaints out the butt. People really, really, just don't want to play the CS as even a passable military force. They just dont.

[Lenwen]

Here Lenny, I'll let you connect the dots with your own experience.

In the 82nd...if a patrol went out and was never heard from again did the rest of the unit sit around and say "should we bother looking for them?" I ask this because of the concept you so brazenly capitalized: "they MIGHT"...meaning that the military could possibly, maybe, go looking for some soldiers who went missing while on patrol. If you said "Yes, we didn't really bother keeping track of people who went missing" then wow, does the US ever need to fall and fast.

I said MIGHT as it were due to the fact that as it stands right now ... alotta Coalition "Patrols" right now are going missing ALL the time according to Aftermath ...
Will the Coalition follow up on each and every single patrol that goes missing ... highly doubtfull.. Even the CS does not have enough troops to do that ..
I do totally understand what your saying as yes it is SoP when a patrol goes missing to send out some sort of recon at the very least to see what kind of enemy were up against ... an report the intel back to supioriors .. at which time they decide to or decide against sending in more troops ...

I'm always amused by people with your train of thought regarding the CS because it's inevitable that the more "How can you ever defend the CS!?!?!?!?!?" frothing a person gets , the more they forget that the CS is an actual military...one that uses military tactics and equipment. Instead, the players and GMs get into this "the CS is really just a big gang with no concept of organization or strategy and the members of the CS don't do anything beyond kick puppies and masterbate to pictures of headless children" and so all it takes is to take out a patrol of CS soldiers is for one person to wave his arms and say "I'm a dragon! Duuur!" then run around the corner where his buddies are all waiting with frying pans and the CS troops will run around, single file, to be knocked out easily.

See now I love how you put that ... Since after all I am not a CS hater .. matter of fact I absolutly love them .. just read some of my other posts .But does that mean I look away when they blow simply game mechanic's outta the water with handwavium explanations as to how they came across litterally millions upon millions of skelebots and not be hurting what so ever in the resources department ... when every one else is on a budget so to speak ... and absolutly no reason as to how they came across what ever resources they attain ....

It's this same concept that always makes people forget that, unlike the vast majority of player groups, the CS has flying units ....units that are quite easily able to see oh, I don't know, a large group of people fleeing an area. You don't need sattelites for that kind of stuff, you know.

And that fact alone with all thier millions of Samas an other flying PA's an Jets an helicopters an Flying Death Head Transports ....
IS thee absolut reason thier the powerhouse they truly are ...
With out a secure AirForce such as thiers ... they would not be half as powerfull ...

But as far as Satalites go nuthing compare's to its ability to give up to the second Military vision of battle fields ... and / or Battle movements of enemies ...
Nuthing ..

[Lenwen]

I think the main reason, I enjoy playing the CS or any other Military based O.C.C as well as using the CS in my own campaigns is the fact that I myself am ex Military. I know the tactics, I know the Strategies and it just makes more sense to me. The GM in one of the gamer groups I play in hates me because I am always out smarting his NPC CS Patrols. Just because he uses stupid tactics. I finally gave him my old US Army Ranger Platoon Leadership book which has many small unit tactics as well as my FM-31-35 (Jungle operations) and FM 31-21 (Guerrilla Warfare and SF Operations)

HAHAHA ..

Priceless ...

[Dustin Fireblade]

I think the main reason, I enjoy playing the CS or any other Military based O.C.C as well as using the CS in my own campaigns is the fact that I myself am ex Military. I know the tactics, I know the Strategies and it just makes more sense to me. The GM in one of the gamer groups I play in hates me because I am always out smarting his NPC CS Patrols. Just because he uses stupid tactics. I finally gave him my old US Army Ranger Platoon Leadership book which has many small unit tactics as well as my FM-31-35 (Jungle operations) and FM 31-21 (Guerrilla Warfare and SF Operations)

Are any of those books e-books by any chance??? I'd love to read them.

Should be able to find them all here I think -
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... index.html

I love my group - we're all former military.

[akito]

well if i ended up in rifts, even if i had my "library" on hand i would still calling with CS.

[Lenwen]

You know, I keep hearing all this claptrap about the "genocidal campaign" being waged by the Coalition and whatnot.

My question is: Uh...what genocidal campaign?

To clarify: I'm well aware that the Coalition High Command would gladly wipe out all D-Bees on Earth if they had the power and opportunity. However there is ZERO evidence that they're actually doing it, or even making a serious attempt at it. In fact, there's one GLARINGLY HUGE piece of evidence that clearly indicates they're not:

Please explain to me, oh supporters of the "Coalition is genociding teh D-Bees!" theory, how on earth there are so many D-Bees parked right outside Chi-Town's doors in the burbs, yet Coalition "kill squads" don't sweep through on a daily basis and slaughter all of them? Yes, the Coalition authorities abuse them and no doubt kill several of them, but there's little to no evidence that Coalition groups run through the 'Burbs rounding them up and killing them en-masse, which is precisely what a "genocidal campaign" would be doing. Where are the permanent death-camps that would basically have to exist to enact "genocide" in any real form?

In other words:

The Coalition leadership is most certainly willing to commit genocide, but haven't made any serious attempt at it, even within their own borders. So they have genocidal ambitions, but for whatever reason do not act on them.

The Coalition authorities (in general) abuse, mistreat, and yes even kill D-Bees with little or no provocation, but there's no evidence that they're under orders solely to exterminate D-Bees on a regular basis (unless said D-Bees show evidence of using magic or magical items, of course).

So again I ask: Where is this "genocidal" campaign you speak of?

Very strong words .. I like it ... Allow me to retort ..as it were
CWC pg 45 " Hate and fear make possible the militarization of a nation "
85% of the population of Missouri , Lone star and Chi-Town "for them , these beings are the evil enemy end of story , kill them before they kill you .. Its as simple as that "

CWC pg 47. "CS Soldiers as the Villain"
He is dedicated to the crushing of the enemy and that includes practitioners of magic , Debees , other none humans , and anybody who opposes the CS ...
(further down in the same paragraph) ..
The bottom line : A CS soldier shoots first and rarely bothers to ask questions .If your the enemy of the States , you better flee or die ..

By the Very essence of the word .. No Coalition is not in a Genocidal war with Debee's or anyone ... But that dont mean they dont outright kill thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Debee's a year .... while not genocidal war in an of itself .. its a great begining ...

[Lenwen]

Aye Tritonia does come to mind for that ...

And yeah it does support your claim that in the very strictest sence of the word ...

The CS is not ona genocidal war against anyone ... but the vast majority of the troops are in fact slaughtering debees .. on a lvl that is comparable to the holocaust ...

I know that there is a vast percentage of the CS that does not kos any one debee's nor magic user's even but the fact is for every one of them there are litterally hundreds ready to take up arms against any debee magic users thier allies or anyone foolish enough to try to contradict the edicts of the CS ...

even all the Debee's in the Burbs are either there as slaves or work force's under containment .. according to Chi-Town Burbs book ..

[Lenwen]

The CS is not ona genocidal war against anyone ... but the vast majority of the troops are in fact slaughtering debees .. on a lvl that is comparable to the holocaust ...

Proof, please? Where is it stated that millions of (noncombatant) D-Bees have been killed by the Coalition or the "vast majority of the troops" are slaughtering D-Bees on a regular basis?

Well I already gave you all the proof you need ...
CWC pg # an all about how the average CS soilder is shoot first not nessasarily ask some questions when thier all dead all I can say outside of that is to basically ..

Pick a title from any of the Tolkeen Meta plot ...
There are even Concentration camps in there ala Holocaust esq style ...
An yes thier not approved by the high command but a General is the one who ordered them ...
IF not for Julian the first and the JAL ..

General dumb @$$ would have slaughtered litterally untold thousands ...
As evidenced in the convo between General Wallace and Colonel Lybboc ..(spelling?)

[Lenwen]

Considering that the US is one of the last nations to even pay attention to the Geneva Convention, I pretty much disregard that definition.

I disregaurd it on the merit that the Geneva convention itself is not even going to exist in Rifts earth circe 109 P.A.

[Lenwen]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Sureshot]

Let me get this straight. Just because Lazlo has a dragon in charge they really don't count in terms of helping humanity in anyway. Yet let's just ignore the power hungry greedy fascist dictator who is in charge of the CS because you know he human.

[Lenwen]

Let me get this straight. Just because Lazlo has a dragon in charge they really don't count in terms of helping humanity in anyway. Yet let's just ignore the power hungry greedy fascist dictator who is in charge of the CS because you know he human.

Be kinda funny if in the next all Chi-Town world book it turns out that Prosek family are all changlings of some kind

[Vrykolas2k]

Though many disagree with me, I still hold to the romanticized notion that the Coalition is Humanity's last, best hope for survival. And I'm not just talking about survival of the species. I'm talking about things beyond just having a pulse. Though some times twisted and distorted, other times secreted away, the CS is the last depository of a wholly Human civilization and ideals devoid of alien influences. They are all that remains of the glorious American Empire and still hold that great nation's spirit at heart. After they are gone, all that will remain will that which the supernatural monsters, demons, and so-called gods deem appropriate. Even in places that are supposedly bearers of the truth and real history, you will find what few Humans they have there subject to the rule of their unearthly "superiors"... like Lazlo for instance. They claim to be a bastion of peaceful coexistence and enlightenment, but who sits upon their throne? A dragon by the name of Plato. Coincidence? I think not.

Perfect response.

Seconded.

You people really need to read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and so on...
The CS holds the spirit of America at heart?
From what I've read of Lazlo, they're much closer to the ideal of the American government as well as the non-skinhead/KKK/black panther/ et cetera types of people who live here currently.
And I don't think you people even want to know what my wife thinks of you...

[Lenwen]

Though many disagree with me, I still hold to the romanticized notion that the Coalition is Humanity's last, best hope for survival. And I'm not just talking about survival of the species. I'm talking about things beyond just having a pulse. Though some times twisted and distorted, other times secreted away, the CS is the last depository of a wholly Human civilization and ideals devoid of alien influences. They are all that remains of the glorious American Empire and still hold that great nation's spirit at heart. After they are gone, all that will remain will that which the supernatural monsters, demons, and so-called gods deem appropriate. Even in places that are supposedly bearers of the truth and real history, you will find what few Humans they have there subject to the rule of their unearthly "superiors"... like Lazlo for instance. They claim to be a bastion of peaceful coexistence and enlightenment, but who sits upon their throne? A dragon by the name of Plato. Coincidence? I think not.

I do disagree with you lol ..

Sincerly .. Every book thier portrayed in thier on the same lvl as like ...
Hitler ..

No matter how you look at it ... Bieng compared to Hitler on ANY lvl .. what so ever is never ever a good thing ...

Think about it ... Ever seen Little Nicky ... lets just say he tries for the small Pinaple .. an Devil says umm no the big one ... lmfao ....

[Lenwen]

I admire Hitler for the man's disturbingly powerful charisma and speaking abilities.

He was a monster, no doubt...but one of the most devastatingly charismatic people the world has ever known. He took a ruined nation saddled with more debt than it could ever pay and in 10 years turned it into a warmachine that was without peer and set to conquer the world.

Not to mention he 100% believed in the realm of magic... hence the secrecy of him having the Spear of Destiny ... and he only started suffering loses when he LOST the Spear .. according to many legends ..

I watched a Television show on History channel a few days ago that said he patterned his speaches to be like those at cologe pep rallies and he always wanted one or two Super hotties to stand at him at all his speaches to appear even more attractive on his speaches an such or at least that is what the history television show was saying ... personally I've no idea ..

He indeed did the impossible tho ..

[Lenwen]

aye thats true .. lol

I am curious tho as to why they have yet to make any show's about Christianities various artifacts ... the spear for one is one that I would watch with great interest ... I like the tie in with it in Constatine too btw ...

[Jesterzzn]

I'm not even sure these artifacts even exist. Preserving wood for over 2,000 years isn't likely, so that kind of rules out "the one true cross" and as the soldier who stabbed Christ with the Spear O'Destiny was just a soldier, his spear probably was long since lost over the millenia.

They make great fables though.

With the Spear of Destiny its a bit more complex. He was a Legionare and named in the Bible. His spear was likely a Hasta or Pilum and both were made of Iron and Ash. We have ash artifacts from much older times than that of Jesus. The oldest wooden artifact (just from a google search) is over 150,000 years old.

I'm not saying any of this means that its out there, but just that it could be.

[Jesterzzn]

I'd say its more of a hypothetical historical discussion than a religious debate.

[Jesterzzn]

I'm a believer in Polytheism not Monotheism so I stay out of Christianity debates

Heimdal was a punkass. There, now we're debating a polytheistic religion.

En garde!!

But damn did he inspire a helluva great game...

[Vrykolas2k]

Though many disagree with me, I still hold to the romanticized notion that the Coalition is Humanity's last, best hope for survival. And I'm not just talking about survival of the species. I'm talking about things beyond just having a pulse. Though some times twisted and distorted, other times secreted away, the CS is the last depository of a wholly Human civilization and ideals devoid of alien influences. They are all that remains of the glorious American Empire and still hold that great nation's spirit at heart. After they are gone, all that will remain will that which the supernatural monsters, demons, and so-called gods deem appropriate. Even in places that are supposedly bearers of the truth and real history, you will find what few Humans they have there subject to the rule of their unearthly "superiors"... like Lazlo for instance. They claim to be a bastion of peaceful coexistence and enlightenment, but who sits upon their throne? A dragon by the name of Plato. Coincidence? I think not.

Perfect response.

Seconded.

You people really need to read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and so on...
The CS holds the spirit of America at heart?
From what I've read of Lazlo, they're much closer to the ideal of the American government as well as the non-skinhead/KKK/black panther/ et cetera types of people who live here currently.
And I don't think you people even want to know what my wife thinks of you...

What part of the Constitution are you refering to? In order to form a more perfect union? Establish Justice? Provide for the common defense? Promote the general welfare? I'm pretty sure they were talking about humans.
America has alot of spirit (or ideals), one of which is that we will not be pushed around and will do whatever it takes to protect what's ours.
We are not talking about Nazi-KKK-Black Panthers, but Supernatural Creatures that would enslave you at best and at worst, devour your soul.
When thinking it through, I doubt your wife would want to live under the rule of some being who considers themselves above the puny concerns of humans (and they do believe that: at best would care for you like a pet).
But I could be wrong... just exercising my freedom of speech...

Which isn't allowed by the CS.
I can name several things which aren't in fact.
And being a naturalized citizen from Europe, she probably has a better idea of what Nazi Europe was like than you do.
And of course not everything non-human is supernatural or evil.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'm a believer in Polytheism not Monotheism so I stay out of Christianity debates

Heimdal was a punkass. There, now we're debating a polytheistic religion.

En garde!!

Not as much as the hippie Christ.
There. Now it isn't only the polytheists who can be offended.

[Lenwen]

I have no clue what the last few debats are about .. I'm totally lost .. I did find within the jumble that some one mentioned something I personally believe as well as for the whole Ley Line Defence being torn down ..

ONE - The Tolkeen rangers an such that lived an worked out in the area that the CS had to go threw to enter into Tolkeen from the north ... never warned tolkeen .. haha .. yeah right .

TWO - Samas taking out giant stone pyramids and other giant sized buildings that would litterally take an entire division of the CS's BIG guns to take out yet the wee little samas were able to take out in less then 5 minutes .... Yeah .. Right ..

THREE - General Holmes whole surviving for up to 6 months with out food , water , NEW munitions , IN the HIVELANDS ... the whole and a ghost shall lead them was 100% BS ... this is the second most blatent thing they could have done to swing the War in Favor OF the Coalitions favor ..

FOUR - The Other Magic using nations not wanting to help against there most hated an most powerfull foe ... This is the LARGEST glaring weakness in the entire story line if you ask me ...


I think those those were just written into the story arc JUST to ensure the Survival of the Coalition an which ended the exsistance of the Tolkeen kingdom ... with out any one of those .. the CS would have lost .

[Library Ogre]

Food and Water are not that hard to come by in the wilderness.

For a small number of people, no. However, the larger your group, the more difficult it gets, on an almost exponential scale. You'll make noise enough to scare everything for tens of miles out of your way, and it's impossible to gather enough usable vegetable matter to meet the caloric needs of that many soldiers while marching... especially if any of them are the least bit boosted (i.e. dog boys, juicers, or crazies, all of which are going to require very high calorie, high, protein food to keep operating at peak efficiency).

[Lenwen]

I have no clue what the last few debats are about .. I'm totally lost .. I did find within the jumble that some one mentioned something I personally believe as well as for the whole Ley Line Defence being torn down ..

ONE - The Tolkeen rangers an such that lived an worked out in the area that the CS had to go threw to enter into Tolkeen from the north ... never warned tolkeen .. haha .. yeah right .

TWO - Samas taking out giant stone pyramids and other giant sized buildings that would litterally take an entire division of the CS's BIG guns to take out yet the wee little samas were able to take out in less then 5 minutes .... Yeah .. Right ..

THREE - General Holmes whole surviving for up to 6 months with out food , water , NEW munitions , IN the HIVELANDS ... the whole and a ghost shall lead them was 100% BS ... this is the second most blatent thing they could have done to swing the War in Favor OF the Coalitions favor ..

FOUR - The Other Magic using nations not wanting to help against there most hated an most powerfull foe ... This is the LARGEST glaring weakness in the entire story line if you ask me ...


I think those those were just written into the story arc JUST to ensure the Survival of the Coalition an which ended the exsistance of the Tolkeen kingdom ... with out any one of those .. the CS would have lost .

Food and Water are not that hard to come by in the wilderness.

For 400'000 Troops yes it would be with out question ... since thier in the HIVELANDS ....
Its already PICKED clean by the Xitixic ....

[Lenwen]

Maybe Holmes just ate thier own dead???....lol.....you never know....

Think that would lead to his courtmartial ...

Not to mention ...

The Xitixic never left dead to eat ... when they killed something they took it with them ...and 90% of the time they simply took some soilders an flew off with them ...

[Lenwen]

Maybe Holmes just ate thier own dead???....lol.....you never know....

Think that would lead to his courtmartial ...

Not to mention ...

The Xitixic never left dead to eat ... when they killed something they took it with them ...and 90% of the time they simply took some soilders an flew off with them ...

It was a joke...............I forgot my J/K........

Seriously though, if KS had to write a full fleshed story/explanation for everything he claims..............he would be writing encylopedias instead of 100-200 page books.........

Well at least flesh out the entirity of the survival of the Holmes 400'000+ troops ... the single most importent thing of the entire tolkeen war ......

With out Holmes troops ..the Ley Line Defense system would have held ... meaning Tolkeen would have easily resisted the entire invasion force of the Coalition ...

[Vrykolas2k]

Maybe Holmes just ate thier own dead???....lol.....you never know....

I've been saying that since the whole "Holmes and Co." survived thing came about.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'd say its more of a hypothetical historical discussion than a religious debate.

Well, as a historian and student of mytholgy and religion, I think that's an even bigger hypothetical when you consider how incredibly thin the evidence is of Jesus as an actual historical figure anyway; outside of the Bible itself (which, bear in mind, aslo has a global wide flood, men being swallowed and puked back up by whales, demons, talking donkeys, talking snakes, talking bushes, giants, monsters all part of stated "fact"- not to mention the two different creation myths in Genesis, the four different accounts of Jesus lineage- which only two can come into actual conflict if he was a virgin birthed baby, and boy, that was a less than original mythology) there's not a single contemporary account of his life, his deeds or his followers lives until Paul of Tsarsis started writting letters about 40-70 years after the time of his alleged execution.
I'm convinced that most it was cobbled together from various pre-existing myths to make some unfortunately executed desert Rabbi who had some extremely nice ideas about people not treating each-other like crap, and may have offended the Jewish cultural norm and religious power structures with his individual centered spirituality, more competitive amidst the flux of grandiose Roman polytheism. Which is a shame really, because people shouldn't need such things as competitive mythology and magic to not treat each-other like crap.
Joseph Campbell was the friggin' man, he brought me from dangerously stupid fundamentalism to gnosticism then to agnosticism and finaly devout atheism/scientific materialism (which is myth-understood, IMO). But I think that Jesus would be public enemy #1 in the CS (as he would have been in Nazi Germany, for sure- A Jew who taught tolerance!! Kill HIM!), too much Golden Rule would not please a ruler who wants to commit to war and genocide- unless you twist his teaching the way Hitler did (who himself was ironicaly part Jewish himself, aside from being just Bat -Crap Crazy in his ideas on architecture and art and race and everything else).
No, I see CS Official religion as being some sickly twisted race worship, with Humans as the chosen race. I'm sure that there are Priests in the CS who take a page from the Inquisition, a page from Hitlers Racial religious non-sense, a page from Muslim Fundamentalistic Jihadism, a page from wacky Scientology Alien paranoia and pages from any source that fit the States Human-supremacist goals. But as far as we think of modern Christianity, it would probably get you sent to a work camp for the rest of your short, miserable, D-Bee lovin' life. The alleged teachings of Jesus are too nice for the likes of Prosek,, he'd have to be almost eliminated altogether in favor of something more militant.
At least, that's how I've always run CS religion- even when I was religious.

You're a soulless commie, but in this instance, you're correct.

[Vrykolas2k]

I have no clue what the last few debats are about .. I'm totally lost .. I did find within the jumble that some one mentioned something I personally believe as well as for the whole Ley Line Defence being torn down ..

ONE - The Tolkeen rangers an such that lived an worked out in the area that the CS had to go threw to enter into Tolkeen from the north ... never warned tolkeen .. haha .. yeah right .

TWO - Samas taking out giant stone pyramids and other giant sized buildings that would litterally take an entire division of the CS's BIG guns to take out yet the wee little samas were able to take out in less then 5 minutes .... Yeah .. Right ..

THREE - General Holmes whole surviving for up to 6 months with out food , water , NEW munitions , IN the HIVELANDS ... the whole and a ghost shall lead them was 100% BS ... this is the second most blatent thing they could have done to swing the War in Favor OF the Coalitions favor ..

FOUR - The Other Magic using nations not wanting to help against there most hated an most powerfull foe ... This is the LARGEST glaring weakness in the entire story line if you ask me ...


I think those those were just written into the story arc JUST to ensure the Survival of the Coalition an which ended the exsistance of the Tolkeen kingdom ... with out any one of those .. the CS would have lost .

Food and Water are not that hard to come by in the wilderness.

But both are practically nonexistant in the hive-lands.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'd say its more of a hypothetical historical discussion than a religious debate.

Well, as a historian and student of mytholgy and religion, I think that's an even bigger hypothetical when you consider how incredibly thin the evidence is of Jesus as an actual historical figure anyway; outside of the Bible itself (which, bear in mind, aslo has a global wide flood, men being swallowed and puked back up by whales, demons, talking donkeys, talking snakes, talking bushes, giants, monsters all part of stated "fact"- not to mention the two different creation myths in Genesis, the four different accounts of Jesus lineage- which only two can come into actual conflict if he was a virgin birthed baby, and boy, that was a less than original mythology) there's not a single contemporary account of his life, his deeds or his followers lives until Paul of Tsarsis started writting letters about 40-70 years after the time of his alleged execution.
I'm convinced that most it was cobbled together from various pre-existing myths to make some unfortunately executed desert Rabbi who had some extremely nice ideas about people not treating each-other like crap, and may have offended the Jewish cultural norm and religious power structures with his individual centered spirituality, more competitive amidst the flux of grandiose Roman polytheism. Which is a shame really, because people shouldn't need such things as competitive mythology and magic to not treat each-other like crap.
Joseph Campbell was the friggin' man, he brought me from dangerously stupid fundamentalism to gnosticism then to agnosticism and finaly devout atheism/scientific materialism (which is myth-understood, IMO). But I think that Jesus would be public enemy #1 in the CS (as he would have been in Nazi Germany, for sure- A Jew who taught tolerance!! Kill HIM!), too much Golden Rule would not please a ruler who wants to commit to war and genocide- unless you twist his teaching the way Hitler did (who himself was ironicaly part Jewish himself, aside from being just Bat -Crap Crazy in his ideas on architecture and art and race and everything else).
No, I see CS Official religion as being some sickly twisted race worship, with Humans as the chosen race. I'm sure that there are Priests in the CS who take a page from the Inquisition, a page from Hitlers Racial religious non-sense, a page from Muslim Fundamentalistic Jihadism, a page from wacky Scientology Alien paranoia and pages from any source that fit the States Human-supremacist goals. But as far as we think of modern Christianity, it would probably get you sent to a work camp for the rest of your short, miserable, D-Bee lovin' life. The alleged teachings of Jesus are too nice for the likes of Prosek,, he'd have to be almost eliminated altogether in favor of something more militant.
At least, that's how I've always run CS religion- even when I was religious.

You're a soulless commie, but in this instance, you're correct.

Actualy, I've tempered down the communism greatly since I see it as an unattainable, yet admirible goal.
Now I'm just a soulless mixed-economy socialist.

[Jesterzzn]

I'd say its more of a hypothetical historical discussion than a religious debate.

Well, as a historian and student of mytholgy and religion, I think that's an even bigger hypothetical when you consider how incredibly thin the evidence is of Jesus as an actual historical figure anyway; outside of the Bible itself (which, bear in mind, aslo has a global wide flood, men being swallowed and puked back up by whales, demons, talking donkeys, talking snakes, talking bushes, giants, monsters all part of stated "fact"- not to mention the two different creation myths in Genesis, the four different accounts of Jesus lineage- which only two can come into actual conflict if he was a virgin birthed baby, and boy, that was a less than original mythology) there's not a single contemporary account of his life, his deeds or his followers lives until Paul of Tsarsis started writting letters about 40-70 years after the time of his alleged execution.
I'm convinced that most it was cobbled together from various pre-existing myths to make some unfortunately executed desert Rabbi who had some extremely nice ideas about people not treating each-other like crap, and may have offended the Jewish cultural norm and religious power structures with his individual centered spirituality, more competitive amidst the flux of grandiose Roman polytheism. Which is a shame really, because people shouldn't need such things as competitive mythology and magic to not treat each-other like crap.
Joseph Campbell was the friggin' man, he brought me from dangerously stupid fundamentalism to gnosticism then to agnosticism and finaly devout atheism/scientific materialism (which is myth-understood, IMO). But I think that Jesus would be public enemy #1 in the CS (as he would have been in Nazi Germany, for sure- A Jew who taught tolerance!! Kill HIM!), too much Golden Rule would not please a ruler who wants to commit to war and genocide- unless you twist his teaching the way Hitler did (who himself was ironicaly part Jewish himself, aside from being just Bat -Crap Crazy in his ideas on architecture and art and race and everything else).
No, I see CS Official religion as being some sickly twisted race worship, with Humans as the chosen race. I'm sure that there are Priests in the CS who take a page from the Inquisition, a page from Hitlers Racial religious non-sense, a page from Muslim Fundamentalistic Jihadism, a page from wacky Scientology Alien paranoia and pages from any source that fit the States Human-supremacist goals. But as far as we think of modern Christianity, it would probably get you sent to a work camp for the rest of your short, miserable, D-Bee lovin' life. The alleged teachings of Jesus are too nice for the likes of Prosek,, he'd have to be almost eliminated altogether in favor of something more militant.
At least, that's how I've always run CS religion- even when I was religious.
I absolutely loathe everything that the CS is supposed to represent. To me, they represent everything that is WORST in humanity.

Okay. But since you quoted me there, I kinda feel I have to ask, what does that have to do with the possibility of a wooden spear surviving in a preserved state?

[Jesterzzn]

Not just any spear, I took it, but a PARTICULAR spear. Sure, we find Roman relics from time to time- but finding (just an example here) a clothes pin dating back to Imperial Rome and claiming that it's the clothes pin used by Caligula to hang his dirty tunic to dry is another thing all together, eh?

I was replying to the idea that wooden artifacts don't survive for 2000 years as a reason to discount the fable/myth/whatever. They do. Or, rather they can.

So as farfetched as it may be for it to be the actual spear that killed Jesus, it is possible for the spear to be preserved should it have been retained.

[Daniel Stoker]

Or it requires symbiosis with other races that are bigger but need something you can provide and don't care about dominating you. And let's be honest, humans in the 3 galaxies help prove the fact that plain humans can work to be a dominant force even when surrounded by MDC creatures that can naturally turn them into paste with a flick of their fingers.


Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

Only because the humans in the Three Galaxies were lucky enough to not run into say, the Splugorth first, and entered the equation with an infrastructure and society that wasn't torn apart by a planetary apocalypse. Apples and Oranges, in other words as they're two wholly separate environments. Symbiosis is only possible when races agreeable to such symbiosis exist in great enough numbers and power to make a difference. Not the case on Rifts Earth, that we've seen.

I didn't say they were the same environment, I said it showed that humans could retain dominance in an environment where they were still pretty darn squishy. And why there not a case for symbiosis in Rifts? There are plenty of races in NA alone that aren't Anti-human. Heck Psyscape is a great place where it's already started.

Rifts Earth isn't nearly as "human friendly" as the Three Galaxies (or doesn't have such human-friendly races in proximity to the humans). The vast majority of supernatural creatures presented on Rifts Earth tend to fall into the categories of "Evil" "Angry" "Opportunistic" or "Hungry." Exceptions exist, but they're just that: The exception, not the rule (on Rifts Earth).

I'm not to sure how human friendly the Three Galaxies actually is when 2 of the major blocks at best find humans crunchy and ripe for the picking, but I never said it was an exact replica of Rifts Earth.

The problem also is you're talking about welcoming D-Bee's with open arms and then about Supernatural creatures being mostly evil. Not all D-Bee's are even close to supernatural creatures, let alone are Evil. Looking at the D-Bee's of NA book I'd say a majority at least are good or neutral or just want to be left alone.


Daniel Stoker

[Lenwen]

(Incidentally Psyscape is a poor example...it's a society based on the elitism and isolationist mindset of those with psychic power...which would just be another form of dominating the "ordinary" humans. Supernatural selection all over again.)

Actually thier not elitists because they have psionics ... they have tons of people with zero psionics what so ever .. they are Isolationists due to them hiding from something .... not cause they think thier better then everyone ..

[Daniel Stoker]

Must've missed the part where I mentioned SDC D-Bees in my original post. They're not so much the issue, though there's not much evidence that any single race of them is in a position to offer humanity much in terms of an alliance (and pretty much any SDC D-Bee race that does have a significant power bloc is hostile towards humanity, or hostile in general...see Simvan and Horune Pirates).

You missed my point though. Even many of the MDC D-Bees aren't Supernatural Creatures and by definition Evil. (Seriously though you went back and forth in that post and talked about D-Bee's and then talked about Supernatural Creatures. So we agree, to separate things and most D-bee's aren't in the 'humans are good with ketchup category, right?)

It's the supernaturals that are naturally going to dominate if permitted to gain influence over the society, and indeed do in almost every society where they're integrated on Rifts Earth. Heck, even the New Navy is led by a supernatural creature....

I disagree, and doesn't Nemo lead due to the chain of command, not divine right of his being MDC? (And does he really count as a supernatural creature, or just a new MDC race?)

To rephrase what I'm getting at: The Coalition is a logical and understandable reaction by humanity towards the events that have befallen Rifts Earth. Trying to counterpoint the "supernatural selection" argument with evidence from another setting doesn't work, because Rifts Earth is what we're talking about.

Logical? Well it's logical that some people would react that way yes, but it isn't "THE" logical answer to Rifts. You could easily have them partnering with people of magic and non-hostile D-bee's to survive, but they chose the xeno & magic & mostly/sorta psi-phobia route.

(Incidentally Psyscape is a poor example...it's a society based on the elitism and isolationist mindset of those with psychic power...which would just be another form of dominating the "ordinary" humans. Supernatural selection all over again.)

Except all humans can learn to harness psionics if they are trained from birth. As per the rules we're a psionically active race. And did I miss something where non-Psychics are persona non-grata or second class citizens in Psyscape? And since when is Isolationist bad when the Coalition are some of the biggest Isolationists in NA.


Daniel Stoker

[dark brandon]

Except all humans can learn to harness psionics if they are trained from birth. As per the rules we're a psionically active race. And did I miss something where non-Psychics are persona non-grata or second class citizens in Psyscape? And since when is Isolationist bad when the Coalition are some of the biggest Isolationists in NA.


Daniel Stoker

No, not all humans can learn psionics. In RMB it's stated that only a select few have them. Later in lone-star it's reviled that bradford wonders why only some have them. Finally, it's expanded on in BTS that only a select have them because of it's specialization.

In RUE they even completely removed the ability that some people are born with minor psionics.

[Xenogears]

Except all humans can learn to harness psionics if they are trained from birth. As per the rules we're a psionically active race. And did I miss something where non-Psychics are persona non-grata or second class citizens in Psyscape? And since when is Isolationist bad when the Coalition are some of the biggest Isolationists in NA.


Daniel Stoker

No, not all humans can learn psionics. In RMB it's stated that only a select few have them. Later in lone-star it's reviled that bradford wonders why only some have them. Finally, it's expanded on in BTS that only a select have them because of it's specialization.

In RUE they even completely removed the ability that some people are born with minor psionics.

No they did not take out the ability to be born with psionics in RUE pg. 289.

[dark brandon]

Except all humans can learn to harness psionics if they are trained from birth. As per the rules we're a psionically active race. And did I miss something where non-Psychics are persona non-grata or second class citizens in Psyscape? And since when is Isolationist bad when the Coalition are some of the biggest Isolationists in NA.


Daniel Stoker

No, not all humans can learn psionics. In RMB it's stated that only a select few have them. Later in lone-star it's reviled that bradford wonders why only some have them. Finally, it's expanded on in BTS that only a select have them because of it's specialization.

In RUE they even completely removed the ability that some people are born with minor psionics.

No they did not take out the ability to be born with psionics in RUE pg. 289.

oh, sweet. I thought they did, i'm glad they didn't.

[Daniel Stoker]

No, not all humans can learn psionics. In RMB it's stated that only a select few have them. Later in lone-star it's reviled that bradford wonders why only some have them. Finally, it's expanded on in BTS that only a select have them because of it's specialization.

In RUE they even completely removed the ability that some people are born with minor psionics.

A select few characters in the Main book may end up having them, but they all have the potential to have them. Which is why I said trained from birth. As per the BtS rules you just have to be willing to spend your PPE as you grow up to learn psionics. Granted it's a bit more technical then that, but that's the basics.


Daniel Stoker

[dark brandon]

No, not all humans can learn psionics. In RMB it's stated that only a select few have them. Later in lone-star it's reviled that bradford wonders why only some have them. Finally, it's expanded on in BTS that only a select have them because of it's specialization.

In RUE they even completely removed the ability that some people are born with minor psionics.

A select few characters in the Main book may end up having them, but they all have the potential to have them. Which is why I said trained from birth. As per the BtS rules you just have to be willing to spend your PPE as you grow up to learn psionics. Granted it's a bit more technical then that, but that's the basics.


Daniel Stoker

Ok, I see what you're getting at.

[Vrykolas2k]

The CS now does have the Technology to create psionics into non-psionic humans...........with a drawback or IQ being dropped 20% I believe and couple little side effect here and their......

Completly worth it in my opinion, they can make you a Nega Psychic, Burster, Zapper, and just give you Super Psionic powers.

I think that's something the CS would want to pump out for their next war against Magic users, get regular CS grunts and make them Nega Psychics, assign one Nega Psychic to each platoon or squad. Mages worst nightmare.

Except for the fact that in most places with magi, the magic is often paired with tech, to the greater benefit.
So you'd not only be fighting wizards, but 'borgs and juicers as well, most of the times.