TO ALL ASPIRING STARSHIP DESIGNERS

[Aramanthus]

I'm going to send this to a friend of mine who is not on the boards. He want to submit a destroyer. I'm going to have to talk to him and get this arranged. Maybe the second one could be Destroyers. The workhorse of the fleet!

[Aramanthus]

Always glad to help out as a judge. It was fun. I'm not anartist. And I'm not going to help my friend other than maybe posting his ship here. Of course if I have to help out with stats I couldn't be a judge.

[Aramanthus]

Sounds like a good idea. I'm hoping he will. We can use some alternate judges.

[glitterboy2098]

if we do destroyers next, i might have an entry. i need to see what i can do art wise. my drawing skills are kinda weak, and Mspaint is not the best medium for these contests.

maybe i can use the LEGO Digital designer?


i'll probably not get a chance to join in or judge much, i lose easy access to internet after next week.


a few suggestions for future catagories...
Frigate
Destroyer
Corvette
Battleship
Troop Transport/Lander (larger LST or similar type transport)
Pocket carrier (small destroyer or frigate sized fighter carrier)
Light carrier
Heavy carrier
Starfighter: Interceptor
Starfighter: Bomber
Starfighter: Recon
Shuttle: Combat
Shuttle: AWACS
Shuttle: Troop Transport
Runner-ship
Light Freighter
Medium Freighter
Heavy Freighter
Low Tech Starship (using non-Contra-grav technologies..AUGG style ships, fusion ramjets, ect. can be slow FTL or non-FTL, cannot exceed 1ly/h)
Orbital Bombardment Ship (monitor?)
Exploratory Vessel

there are probably lots more types we can do.


as for gleba, yeah, lets see if he wants to judge

[Aramanthus]

That is a great list GB! We can use it for future projects!

[taalismn]

Whatever you can do, do it...even if you consider it bad art or a bad writeup...we'll merely chalk it down to poor scanner readings and blurry photography(like those blurry pictures in old Jane's books of Soviet ships..)..

It's a big Megaverse...claim your piece of it...

[KLM]

a few suggestions for future catagories...
Frigate
Destroyer
Corvette
Battleship
Troop Transport/Lander (larger LST or similar type transport)
Pocket carrier (small destroyer or frigate sized fighter carrier)
Light carrier
Heavy carrier

For my part, I would say, that the "canon categories" ie.
frigate, cruiser, battleship, dreadnought are merely size
(ie. weight and displacement) categories.

There are however subclasses.

Frigates:
- Corvette: the smallest frigates. Since their
size, they usually lack some capabilites, be it range,
firepower, endurance...
Example: Proctor, Dragon dreadnought (probably
the latter has some kind of FTL in the 3galaxies).

- Destroyer: anti-ship frigate, usually geared
towards anti-starfighter to anti-frigate roles.
They are the archetipical frigate escort to
larger fleets, be they transport convoys or
battlegroups. They usually able to attack
larger vessels effectively, but only in packs.
Example: Hunter

-Patrol ship:
Mini-cruisers, meant for long range patrols, usually
alone - so they are presumed to be able to deal
with anything they cannot outrun, but also expected
to avoid larger vessels.
Example: Scimitar

-Attack ships:
The 3 galactic equivalent of the torpedo boats.
As a side note, I have to mention that the WWI
era torpedo boats of the Habsburg Empire and
Germany were almost as big, as pre-WWI destroyers,
and they even were escorting battleships.
Another note, that the TGE abandoned mass attacks by
these ships against capital vessel, because of heavy losses.
Example: Berserker.

- Pocket carriers:
The name says it all. A Scimitar-class vessel, with her
unusually large fighter and PA compliment or the dragon
Dreadnought (with its 300 ton and PA compliment of 32!!!!)
at least borders that category.

Other categories might exist, for example a Scimitar
serving as troop transport/landing ship...

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

Sounds good...

Then somebody comes up with the ultimate modular starship...

[KLM]

how about reconn vessels?

They come any size from PA to the Explorer class "cruiser"
with her 8,5 million tons...

Adios
KLM

[gaby]

I will also say the ships of each race or powerblock will look different and different colours.
It will be boring if they all look the same.

[taalismn]

well, don't forget that nothing says you have to stick to warships. There are also:

Yachts,
Light transports (think Millenium Falcon and Serenity)
Containerships
Merchantmen
Hospital Ships
Assault Landing Ships (drop ships)
Space Stations
Colony Ships
Asteroid mining ships, etc.

EVA Shuttles(Specialized)
Excursionary Transports(tourist shuttles)
Rescue Cruisers
Laboratory Ships
Factory Transports
Communications Relay Craft
Navigational Beacon Tenders
Salvage Tugs
Hyperspace Tugs

But what would you classify a spacesuit/exoskeleton with an FTL drive(however limited) as? A Shuttlecraft(Micro-light, Single Occupancy ?

[KLM]

"Long range, single seated craft".

Actually, Robots vehicles over 50 tons (Ovoid and Battleram are the two canon examples)
almost beg for an FTL drive.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

It looks like to me, that CG is more fuel-efficient than normal, boring, chemical drives.

So, whatever generates enough "kraft" to power their energy weapons, would
also be sufficient to power an FTL drive.

Albeit probably a slow one, like 0,1-1,0 Ly/h.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

As I mentioned earlier, I play(ed) a few space MMO(RP)Gs, where it was possible to
"warp" in tactical situations, like 100km's, where weapon ranges were similar
to 3Galactic ones (from a few hundred meters up to like 250 km).

Now, some ships had drones (robotic fighters), which (while being pretty usefull
sometimes) were a pain in the (insert body part here)...

I mean release them, and when the target warped out, collect them, all the while
suffering the pounding of that target...

Same like non-FTL capable fighters in the 3 Galactic setting.

So for my part, I add most space vehicles FTL capability.

However, most "canonically non FTL" craft are rather limited in range and
speed - but still able to arrive from the Earth-orbiting mothership to a small
skirmish near Pluto in a few minutes (ie. able to travel a "light day" in a few
minutes).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

I guess my version of the Golgan Republikan Guard does not even need
a minor cosmetic upgrades.

Gave it a bump, thought

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=80385&start=0

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

Those are all great ones for the list of ships to design for later contest. And I personally go way beyond the pale when it comes to starships. I like GB use the models from real life and modify the list for official Phase World. Although I'll be willing to use any and all created here.

[Aramanthus]

My goal exactly! I've always loved naval ships! So I'm always gathering them.

[KLM]

I like GB use the models from real life and modify the list for official Phase World.

Even IRL there are controversies in classifying vessels.

One country's cruiser is another country's frigate, carrier, amphibious assault ship or battlescruiser.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

Ah. But I have Jane's Fighting Ships (Both for WW2 and modern) as my ultimate guide!

[Aramanthus]

The US follows suit along with the various powers at appropriate times. For WW2 you can use the US, Great Briton, France, Japan, Germany and to a lesser extent Russia and your ships will be falling about the same sort of areas for sizes and classifications.

[Aramanthus]

For you maybe. Not me. I'm sticking to the old tried and true! As stated before I have the sea flowing in my veins.

[KLM]

And vacuum in my head for starships?

-----------
But imagine a scenario, when old ballistic missile nuclear subs get upgraded to
deploy UCAVs.

How would that fit into the current designations?

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

That would be considered a variation on a class. Sort of like the Tomahawk carrying Ohio classs subs. They originally caried Trident ballistic missiles. A variation.

[Aramanthus]

Remember Daedalus is more of a submersible landing ship/ carrier and Prometheus is a submersible carrier. They are not the same things. Two distinct classes with that example.

[Aramanthus]

There are always room to add a new class when needed. I just don't believe in getting rid of old ones unless they are not needed in my game because there are none of those classes around. Even then they could always see a resurgance in the future.

[Aramanthus]

Then as I said before you do your thing. And I'll do mine. But as far as canon in Phase World we're are already using the older classififcations systems. Might as well continue.

[Aramanthus]

I have a friend here in Racine is working on a new Destroyer. I've been trying to talk him into joining the second contest when we get it organized.

[glitterboy2098]

funny, i just built a ship using my lego builder program i had decided would be a destroyer. albiet an atypical one technology wise (i had some neat ideas about drives, weapons, and such)

so....Battle: Destroyer?

[Aramanthus]

That is cool! And some wild coincidence! Can we see it GB???? Please! And some stats please! Just post it over on the Starship thread.

[glitterboy2098]

no stats yet, i need to sit down and write those up. i just kinda built something i thought looked cool, and decided it looked like a destroyer to me.

i'm still trying to decide what kind of drive and stuff i want to use, but i've decided it will be armed with mostly railguns..

[Aramanthus]

Hmmm Sounds like a more older tech ship. Maybe you could create an RCC to go with it. What do you think of that idea?

[KLM]

so....Battle: Destroyer?

I guess we first have to clearly define what the term "Destroyer"
covers.

Soo... Warships (in the 3Galactic classification system: frigates)
between like 6 to 15 thousand tons, optimised for long range
anti-frigate and anti-starfighter (escort) role as primary and
for anti-capital missions (en masse preferably) as secondary role?

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

That sounds pretty reasonable KLM. Anti-piracy patrols should be included in there.

[KLM]

That sounds pretty reasonable KLM. Anti-piracy patrols should be included in there.

Which actually falls into the "long range, anti-frigate/starfighter" role, or sometimes
pits a squadron of destroyers against a lone cruiser, which nicely qualifies as a secondary
"anti-capital, en masse attack" objective.

Of course pirates often use converted civilian ships, but those usually present a lesser
threat than a "proper" cruiser.

As a side note, destroyers are presumed to be capable both as convoy/fleet escorts, or as
independent S&D squads. In the latter role, they are expected to be able to perform
defensive patrols (ie. pirate hunting) or strikes against shipping in enemy territory.

In has to be noted, that they are not expected to perform anti-planetary or anti-starbase
operations, nor they are required to be able to perform multiple or prolonged attacks
against capital ships (without rearming and reloading, that is).

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

Hmmm Sounds like a more older tech ship. Maybe you could create an RCC to go with it. What do you think of that idea?

actually, it is what (IMO) the Three Galaxies would call an Archaic technology ship. Contragravitic technology is far older than most of the races in the current 3G's, and there remains no one of the rces or races that actually developed it. all races in the current 3G's, at one point or another, obtained CG tech from another races through various means. which is why it is so common. and you have few new developments in it. only the occassional rediscovered principle or application.

non-CG technology is technically the "newer" tech, since it usually is developed by various races prior to their obtaining CGtech. 'archaic' basically has connotations of "not as good' and 'obsolete', not just old.


in thinking about the 'destroyer' i built, i wound up with a ship i'm not sure i want ot enter into the iron engineer event.

Type-5 Destroyer
Type-5 Destroyer, view 2
Type-5 Destroyer, rear view
Destroyer Swarm


i've decided on fluff, just not stats yet. the Type-5 Destroyer is an example of Archeotech, technology from ancient civilizations. specifically, an unknown civilization in a small star cluster 'above' and spinward of the plane of the Thundercloud Galaxy. this cluster was isolated from 3G's society, and thus never developed CG-technology.

the Type-5 (known by many different class names by many different races), along with several other classes, was built by this unknown civilization, for some unknown reason, and cached all throughout the cluster, hundreds of thousands of years prior to the current age. these caches of ships, hidden in asteroids, moons, and other dead stellar bodies, sat unused until discovered by the inhabitants of some of those systems. in many cases it served as the catalyst for star travel and expansion by that world. as a result, thousands of these hidden ships have been uncovered, and more continue to be uncovered. it is unknown how many were hidden away, or where, but even the most pessimistic estimates place the numbers in as several score thousand to find.

technology wise they are unique. they employ a type of "crystal photon drive", the exact mechanism of which is not fully undestood. the reddish cystal, when exposed to radiation and heat, generates a powerful gamma-ray photon beam substantially more potent than the input should allow. CCW scientists who have studied the few found by consortium survey teams believe the drive to be a sort of 'Quantum Graser' system, the Crystal an artificially grown construct that extends into more than the 4 perceivable dimensions, and when exposed to radiation and heat as a catalyst, promotes the creation of Virtual pair formation in the quantum foam, and funnels the resulting gamma-ray photons into a focuses laser beam for thrust. the result appears to violate conservation of energy, but the researchers maintain that if the additional dimensions are factored in, it does not.

most of the rest of the ship is fairly conventional. the fusion powerplant is robust and safe to operate, the computers use conventional electronic and optical systems, and the weapons use fairly standard electromagnetic principles. it is construction that sets the ships apart. every system is composed of modular, self contained parts that are easily removed and replaced. this is fortunate, because not all of the parts are reproducable. the modules for the drive, in particular, have never been successfully reverse engineered. attempts to open drive modules have, invariably, found only empty boxes. this, along with the apparent violation of conservation, has caused many races in the cluster to consider their drive units a form of 'magic' or the result of divine powers. races less inclined to superstition posit that the components of these modules actually exist in more than the 4 perceivable dimensions, and that breaking the seals on the modules cause the anchor to those dimensions to be lost, leaving just an empty box. some races have never bothered to learn how ot build the other modules as a result, believing the entire ship to be so designed...

as a result, it is impossible to repair a drive related system without canabilizing from another ship. this has created a large treasure hunting economy in the cluster, with intact modules worth a premium, and intact fully functional ships worth a kings ransom.




GM's note: guess i wound up writing fluff instead of summary... drive wise it's weaker than most 3G's drives, i'm thinking about 4 mach. (using my house rules, accell of 4 mach with a max velocity of 800,000 mach...actually high max than a CG drive, but unlikely to be able to reach it.) FTL will be the tachyonic realm from AUGG, probably a mere .10 ly/h (about 876c).

weaponry will be railguns, and a few point defense weapons (also kinetic), mostly for anti-missile duty. fighters being very rare in the cluster, and not often found in the ship caches...

likewise no shields (need CG tech to have those). it will have inertial dampening, but only as a side effect of the drive (part of the multi-dimensional set up..bleed off inertia inside into higher dimension...)

i've always considered Phase world to be lacking in archeotech and the wonderous remains of lost races. i's alost as bad as the lack of less advanced technologies for space trael. so i tend to end up writing stuff in those catagories...

[Aramanthus]

That is pretty awesome GB! I did read the fluff and it's good material. I can't wait to see the stats. I think you could use it as your entry in the next Iron Engineer contest.

[KLM]

actually, it is what (IMO) the Three Galaxies would call an Archaic technology ship. Contragravitic technology is far older than most of the races in the current 3G's, and there remains no one of the rces or races that actually developed it.
(...)
weaponry will be railguns, and a few point defense weapons (also kinetic), mostly for anti-missile duty. fighters being very rare in the cluster, and not often found in the ship caches...

First, You probably know, that contradicts "canon" about CG (not that it
MUST HAVE to influence anyone's game).

Second, if the guys had this multidimensional beam technology, why don't they use it to burn holes
into ships they don't like? (=weaponry system).

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

actually, it is what (IMO) the Three Galaxies would call an Archaic technology ship. Contragravitic technology is far older than most of the races in the current 3G's, and there remains no one of the rces or races that actually developed it.
(...)
weaponry will be railguns, and a few point defense weapons (also kinetic), mostly for anti-missile duty. fighters being very rare in the cluster, and not often found in the ship caches...

First, You probably know, that contradicts "canon" about CG (not that it
MUST HAVE to influence anyone's game).

actually it doesn't, because there is no canon about where or when CG tech was developed. merely that once a race reaches a tech level to figure out "cancelling out gravity waves" CG tech is an easy discovery.

but as i've pointed out before, that assumes all races develop identically, figure out the same stuff, and always make the same leap of genius. which is pretty darn unlikely with different groups of humans, much less a bunch of aliens, many of which have very different mentalities, histories, and social structures than humanity.

on the other hand, a combination of Uplift policies, as well as conquest and trade, makes it very easy for the million+ worlds in three seperate galaxies to be using the exact same technology, with minimal differences. and we know from the freelancers that the history of the three galaxies is pretty darn old, and that CG tech has been used more or less consistantly throughout.

Second, if the guys had this multidimensional beam technology, why don't they use it to burn holes
into ships they don't like? (=weaponry system).

two answers. first, look up The Kzinti Lesson

second, the differance between a photon drive and a laser cannon is one of focus and diffussion. and this photon drive is using gamma ray photons, which cannot be focused into a weapon because of their ultrahigh energy state. but that high energy state makes it fairly good as a drive (well, for a photon drive)

[Aramanthus]

Reasonable logic on your part GB. I'm looking forward to seeing your tech manual updated in the hopefully near future.

[glitterboy2098]

i hope to eventually either write it up for the rifter, or possibly, write it up for a future Rifter 0.X entry, which frankly would be more widespread...

i'm holding off until Braden's and Gleba's new books are out, Braden has some stuff on forcefields and drives i want the full info on (the info he told me is helpful, but i'd like to see if there is anything else that might be important), and Gleba has mentioned he's got a solution for the whole "mach in space" problem, which if it works should make it alot easier to rectify the stuff i'm writing with the canon phase world set up (the low velocities and lack of specified accelelration drives me batty....)

[Aramanthus]

I understand. That little thing drives me a little batty too. That is the reason I use Kitsune's rules for my game. Along with the really strange canon weapon ranges.

[KLM]

actually it doesn't, because there is no canon about where or when CG tech was developed. merely that once a race reaches a tech level to figure out "cancelling out gravity waves" CG tech is an easy discovery.

Wrong

DMB2, page 62:

"When they (the Noro) developed the gravitonic drive and started exploring worlds beyond their star..."

Also, at several RCC's it is mentioned, that they developed star travel and AFTER that
they had their first encounter "of the 3rd type".

------------------------------------

i i'm holding off until Braden's and Gleba's new books are out, Braden has some stuff on forcefields and drives i want the full info on (the info he told me is helpful, but i'd like to see if there is anything else that might be important), and Gleba has mentioned he's got a solution for the whole "mach in space" problem, which if it works should make it alot easier to rectify the stuff i'm writing with the canon phase world set up (the low velocities and lack of specified accelelration drives me batty....)

Agreed. Also, if you check stuff like the main guns of the TGE's superheavy tank, they
have a space range of several thousand kilometers... Ouch. Put a few of them
on a frigate and begin to slice up a Doombringer, whose main gun has only a measly
200 km range (or so).
At the description of the Silverhawk PA's mini-missiles, it is stated, that mini-missiles
have a "practical" range of 300 meter or less, otherwise the targets might outrun
them...
And so on.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

actually it doesn't, because there is no canon about where or when CG tech was developed. merely that once a race reaches a tech level to figure out "cancelling out gravity waves" CG tech is an easy discovery.

Wrong

DMB2, page 62:

"When they (the Noro) developed the gravitonic drive and started exploring worlds beyond their star..."

Also, at several RCC's it is mentioned, that they developed star travel and AFTER that
they had their first encounter "of the 3rd type".

actually that merely means the Noro developed a version of CG drive. it does not say they were the first to do so, nor does it say their version of it was the version currently in use.

and we have the fact that many races older than the Noro possess CG drive (the K!zon, for example, or the dominators). so the Noro are hardly the first to develop it.

and just because a race has star travel does not automatically mean they have CG drive. it is perfectly possible to have star travel without CG drive. ignoring AUGG FTL tech, you still have your STl star travel options. sleeper ships. interstellar ramjets. reletivistic fusion slowboats. laser boosted solar sails. Valkyrie style antimatter rockets.. generation ships. Longshot style Orion Drives..

there is currently enough vagueness in regards to CG drives for the common form of the tech to be ancient, with multiple races stumbling over the principles independantly before meeting up with another race and getting the better, common, version.

[KLM]

actually that merely means the Noro developed a version of CG drive. it does not say they were the first to do so, nor does it say their version of it was the version currently in use.
(...)
there is currently enough vagueness in regards to CG drives for the common form of the tech to be ancient, with multiple races stumbling over the principles independantly before meeting up with another race and getting the better, common, version.

Your point was, that :

but as i've pointed out before, that assumes all races develop identically, figure out the same stuff, and always make the same leap of genius. which is pretty darn unlikely with different groups of humans, much less a bunch of aliens, many of which have very different mentalities, histories, and social structures than humanity.

I cited one solid example that CG drive is developed independently, which does not mean ALL races,
only that CG was discovered several times.

And aside a few stuff, that we humans discovered multiple occasions, in cultures sufficiently
far from each other both in space and time, not to mention the "social factor", you mentioned
Uplifiting.
Probably it also happened more than once (kreeghors are just one example for that).

However, we can blame the Forge for "leaking out" technology, and maybe intelligence/free will too...
(Which also can qualify as Uplifting, for that matter).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

The wheel, for transportation - except in Americas and Australia

The bow - almost everywhere, except in Australia.

And so on.

[glitterboy2098]

somehow the invention of the wheel (one of the basic mechanisms) just don't compare to the manipulation of space itself.

the wheel is somewhat of an inevitable invention where ever there is flat ground and wood. "ugh see round trees roll. ugh cut tree into small round parts. small parts roll. what if ugh stick small parts to back of travois?" as it is, it was not a universal invention. the Plains indians had wood and they had large areas of flat ground. but they never figured out the wheel. the Inca had very well developed Roads, but never invented the wheel, mostly because of the mountain terrain they lived in.

the bow is less of an inevitable invention, although the basic mechanical principles are quite widespread. (given how ancient the bow is, it is unknown if it was independantly developed, or if it was developed by one group and spread to others before the migration of peoples to places like america..)


on the otherhand, the manipulation of space using quantum mechanics is hardly a basic mechanism. it requires the society to figure out Physics. to figure out Reletivity. to figure out quantum mechnics. and it basically requires a unified energy theory. and then to figure out a way to exploit those to generate a desired effect. we have not managed ot figure out the last two, and are still learning about the third.

it might be easy to take the step once you have all that, but it is probably not easy to reach the point where you can make that step.


and you'll notice i never said it was purely based on archeotech. merely that the hardware in common use was. i also said, if you recall, that cultures reinvent and occassionally rediscover the principles frequently. the common hardware might be copied off ancient ships, but the understanding of the principles of manipulating space had to be developed independantly.

it's sort of a stargate situation, you have this ancient race, who built all this neat tech. you have lots of civilizations using this tech. some are so old they were around when it was first developed. some are really young and had to develop it themselves before they found the mature stuff. and some never developed the understanding until they stumbled over the tech.

[taalismn]

Yep...and some just keep copying the stuff without ever really figuring out what makes it all tick...like Protoculture

But yes, even with the example of the First Ones, we can figure that there have been ancient starfarers in the Three Galaxies for a while, that didn't gobble up all the available real estate and pollute the natural evolutionary processes with their colonies and garbage...That should mean there should be plenty of hardware out there for new races to stumble across and learn the basics of CG propulsion from studying it...

[Aramanthus]

That makes an interesting prespective you two. And By the way Darkmax the method you suggested might be classified by some as magic.

[KLM]

GB... you are assuming everyone is like us, humans. Evolving technologically is logical, based on our current understanding. But what happens if a race simply just evolve by moving space with their... say, kungfu?

Hmm... Star hives, Necrons, Silhouettes, the UWW, Xodian Collective and finally dragons.

That could - and in the case of the 3 Galaxies - did happen.

--------------
Paralell (technological) evolution:

Bow: it looks like Australian natives didn't have bow at all. So it became widespread AFTER they settled...

Hell: What if it is not a development of an idea, but a mere observation?

More seriously: probably a good deal of civilisations just don't make it to the stars. Others make it via
magic. Still others might have gained the technology form outside - not neccessarily Rosswell-style,
more like inspiration. Kinda like if Tesla had dreams from the Forge.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Actually I mean "altering reality by the use of PPE" when I say "magic".

Adios
KLM