Actually, there is no direct mathematical connection between a starship's
lenghts (well, the longest distance between two of its parts) and weight.
Nor lenght vs. displacement (ie. volume).
But...
Since the Hunter, the Warshield, the Packmaster and more-less
the Scimitar are very close to a brick geometrically, just multiply
their dimensions (lenght*width*height, maybe subtract like 20-30%)
to get their volume.
Weight per volume is density.
Now, if you create a starship, guessimate volume... Multiply
it with the density gained above, apply a modifier like plus minus
30% (plus for heavily armored designs, minus for heavily shielded
or more carrier-oriented ones) and there you go.
---------------
A shorter method is that if your ship is roughly 150% in lenght,
and 120% in width, compared to a "canon" design, with the roughly
same height her weight is (1,5*1,2 = 1,8) about 150-200% of the
"canon" original.
Adios
KLM
Starship weight/displacement
Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
Re: Starship weight/displacement
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Kinda like this?
L W H Mass (ton) Volume (m3) Density (kg/m3)
hunter 91,4 24,4 21,3 6.000 47.502 126
warshield 183 61 36,5 100.000 407.450 245
packmaster 1.600 305 305 50.000.000 148.840.000 336
As you can see, as ships grow, their density raises.
Adios
KLM
L W H Mass (ton) Volume (m3) Density (kg/m3)
hunter 91,4 24,4 21,3 6.000 47.502 126
warshield 183 61 36,5 100.000 407.450 245
packmaster 1.600 305 305 50.000.000 148.840.000 336
As you can see, as ships grow, their density raises.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:Thanks, KLM.
Why would density increase with size?.... that is not logical....
Actually it is.
To scale up a thing (say, a starship) to be twice as long, its
mass is 8 times as great (raised to third power).
Frankly, the plates' and bulkheads' strenght is directly depends
on their cross-section's area.
So, the ship is 2 times as long, wide and high. If it is just "scaled
up", the beams and bulkhead's cross section is "just" 4 times of
the original - but the mass of the ship is 8 times of the original.
Collapse...
However, as starships are armored, and since armor is not just
plates welded on the hull, but can be utilised as part of the
structure...
And since armor protection directly depends on armor thickness..
Well, in the above "scaling up", the "new" starship's total surface
is just raised to the second power, ie. 4 times of the original.
If originally we had to commit 10% of the total weight of
the vessel to armor to get 1 unit of armor thickness, now we
have to dedicate only 5% for that protection.
So, in short, armor help to reduce that factor.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
KLM wrote:As you can see, as ships grow, their density raises.
Adios
KLM
Which makes no sense when you get down to it. Once ships get past a certain size, the thickness of their armor isn't gonna keep increasing at the same rate as their size. Pretty much all the large-ish warships should have a similar density regardless of their size, and the ones that specialise as carriers should have a lower than usual density since so much of the interior is just space for stashing other stuff.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:but the structural components need to be heavier/denser to support the spans
Not really. Most of the really bigass spaceships in Phase World will never ever spend time in a gravity well, and don't need the structural integrity to support their own weight. And since the contragrav drive moves the whole ship and everything in it as one unit without any feeling of inertia or acceleration, the ship won't even need to sustain the artificial "weight" of acceleration. Basically they just need to be able to sustain the stress of impacts and collisions, and that's generally a local problem rather than something that'll threaten the integrity of the entire ship.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Rallan wrote:Darkmax wrote:but the structural components need to be heavier/denser to support the spans
Not really. Most of the really bigass spaceships in Phase World will never ever spend time in a gravity well, and don't need the structural integrity to support their own weight. And since the contragrav drive moves the whole ship and everything in it as one unit without any feeling of inertia or acceleration, the ship won't even need to sustain the artificial "weight" of acceleration. Basically they just need to be able to sustain the stress of impacts and collisions, and that's generally a local problem rather than something that'll threaten the integrity of the entire ship.
That is just setting the stress limit very low for them. But raise their size, and mathematics will
come back with a revenge (ie. expanding the limit only).
And as a side note, the Doombringer IS able to enter atmospheres, what is more, it is
technically able to land.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Or - at least - strain on the structural integrity field, which in turn needs projectors and
an ever-increasing reactor output.
Of course it is true: Structural Integrity Fields, Inertialess drives, lacking transatmospheric
capability(*) all extends the theoretical and practical size limit of starships. However, it only
extends it to a new limit.
(*) even extradimensional spaces inside the hull... The Arcane Mk II. almost certainly has
some...
an ever-increasing reactor output.
Of course it is true: Structural Integrity Fields, Inertialess drives, lacking transatmospheric
capability(*) all extends the theoretical and practical size limit of starships. However, it only
extends it to a new limit.
(*) even extradimensional spaces inside the hull... The Arcane Mk II. almost certainly has
some...
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:Also don't forget that the starship itself will generate a certain amount of gravitational force. that isn't even counting its artificial gravity. All these places stress on the structural supports.
That'll be trivial. Most of the volume of a spaceship is made up of empty space, or sealed-off areas filled with gas, so their mass is gonna be pretty low compared to an asteroid of the same dimensions. And even the most insanely colossal ships in the Phase World setting are only a few miles long. Taking the ship's own gravitational pull into account when designing it makes about as much sense as a 20th century ship designer taking the ship's own gravity into account when he designs an aircraft carrier or an oil tanker.
-
Aramanthus
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Re: Starship weight/displacement
Interesting the way this conversation is going. I use a combination working out what a comparable modern ocean going ship displaces uses that same method KLM uses and I then move it up to Phase world weights by using Kitsunes for a final measure. http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts-Rules/PW_Starship_Classes.htm
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Rallan wrote:Taking the ship's own gravitational pull into account when designing it makes about as much sense as a 20th century ship designer taking the ship's own gravity into account when he designs an aircraft carrier or an oil tanker.
Mind you, that the biggest canon ship is technically able to land (just it is very difficult to
find a suitable landing site for Doombringers).
Another issue is turning. Centripetal force, anyone?
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:fine, I can understand that, but what about the artificial grav?
Artificial gravity is probably a non-issue. It can make the interior feel like a 1G environment, while simultaneously accelerating and decelerating at various Gs without the people inside feeling any apparent change in acceleratio or inertia. Presumably if contragravity can create artificial gravity and enough acceleration to move the ship, it can also create opposing forces to neutralize the stress that acceleration/weight would otherwise have put on the frame.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
But while this onboard inertia-dampening/artifical gravity system probably is lighter,
than building in cerasteel bulkheads (for example), it also has its own weight.
If we are talking about maximum starships size limit, that is
Adios
KLM
than building in cerasteel bulkheads (for example), it also has its own weight.
If we are talking about maximum starships size limit, that is
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
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Aramanthus
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Re: Starship weight/displacement
Why any limits if the ship stays in space. Ships landing on a planets surface should have an upward limit. I really think that cruisers should be the largest craft allowed to land.
Hey KLM, where did you see the bit about the DoomBringer being able to land? Is that it in the description in Dimension Book 3 in the entry on the DoomBringer?
Hey KLM, where did you see the bit about the DoomBringer being able to land? Is that it in the description in Dimension Book 3 in the entry on the DoomBringer?
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Aramanthus wrote:Hey KLM, where did you see the bit about the DoomBringer being able to land? Is that it in the description in Dimension Book 3 in the entry on the DoomBringer?
It is.
"Can hover in and out of atmosphere (...) It is almost impossible to find a suitable landing field for
a ship this size on most planets".
Which actually makes sense, at least tactically.
Why bother with landing craft, when we can deliver he troops wherever we want them,
shrugging of flak by the way...
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
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Aramanthus
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Re: Starship weight/displacement
That is true! Thank you for the quick response KLM!!! I appreciate it!
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Presumably, there IS such a flak in the 3Galaxies, which makes such manouvers
(using a Doombringer as an ampibious landing craft) risky or even suicidal.
Just rare.
It is even more rare, when this kind of anti-starship defense covers the whole
planet or willing to fire upon a Doombringer, when it hovers above the equivalent
of Washington.
Adios
KLM
(using a Doombringer as an ampibious landing craft) risky or even suicidal.
Just rare.
It is even more rare, when this kind of anti-starship defense covers the whole
planet or willing to fire upon a Doombringer, when it hovers above the equivalent
of Washington.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
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Aramanthus
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Re: Starship weight/displacement
In my game Anti-ship defenses occur at strategic places. And these defenses are extremely heavy. But they are ground/ orbital and space based. Some places in my game would scare the daylight out of vampires!
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
Aramanthus
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Re: Starship weight/displacement
I know. But I was just speaking out loud about the defenses in my game in some of the most important systems being all around defense from many locations.
But I'm sure there are some planets out there with some really intense planetary defenses. I'd say that any single planet dedicated to military production might have some very heavy ground defense networks.
But I'm sure there are some planets out there with some really intense planetary defenses. I'd say that any single planet dedicated to military production might have some very heavy ground defense networks.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
While I agree, that there are planets that - unless they are softened up - can
kill a Doombringer stupid enough to try a direct landing of 40 million tons worth
of troops and assets.
However, most planets are not capable to prevent it from closing in, inserting
the TGE equvalent of the whole USMC into places like Siberia, the Sahara or
other, not strategically important places.
Even more, the Doombringer might be able to close in, destroying some
defenses as she passes by and then land those troops on MOST planets.
Period, end of story.
Of course, even the Golgan Republik, in its sorry state would be able
to muster enough cruisers to intercept a single doombringer before
she climbs down the gravity well of such a targeted planet.
Adios
KLM
kill a Doombringer stupid enough to try a direct landing of 40 million tons worth
of troops and assets.
However, most planets are not capable to prevent it from closing in, inserting
the TGE equvalent of the whole USMC into places like Siberia, the Sahara or
other, not strategically important places.
Even more, the Doombringer might be able to close in, destroying some
defenses as she passes by and then land those troops on MOST planets.
Period, end of story.
Of course, even the Golgan Republik, in its sorry state would be able
to muster enough cruisers to intercept a single doombringer before
she climbs down the gravity well of such a targeted planet.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
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Aramanthus
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Re: Starship weight/displacement
I agree with that KLM! And I could see most powers trying to keep track of those very heavy warships. And having a quick reaction forces ready for such an encounter if it was required.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Actually, since ships canonically can be detected as far as 10 lys away, with a modest
investment in a sensory grid on can have hours if not days to react.
Adios
KLM
investment in a sensory grid on can have hours if not days to react.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:10 LY is at most 3-4 hours away... getting a significant percentage of the fleet back to defend against the threat is quite impossible,... but that's another plot driver.
10 lys is maybe 2 hours against a warship, sometimes less. But deploy a few (say 6) satellites into
interstellar space, each is 10 lys from the protected system, and you have a 20 ly radius
early warning/monitoring system.
Deploy like 30 more as a second layer, and 30 lys.
About 200 (each costs probably less than 10 million credits) is still affordable for
a single planetary goverment, and 40 lys to see.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
KLM wrote:Darkmax wrote:10 LY is at most 3-4 hours away... getting a significant percentage of the fleet back to defend against the threat is quite impossible,... but that's another plot driver.
10 lys is maybe 2 hours against a warship, sometimes less. But deploy a few (say 6) satellites into
interstellar space, each is 10 lys from the protected system, and you have a 20 ly radius
early warning/monitoring system.
Deploy like 30 more as a second layer, and 30 lys.
About 200 (each costs probably less than 10 million credits) is still affordable for
a single planetary goverment, and 40 lys to see.
Adios
KLM
I've only got the first two Phase World books, so how exactly does that work? Can it detect any large ship within ten lightyears, or just ones that are travelling FTL?
Re: Starship weight/displacement
DMB2, page 153, under Sensor Systems:
Military systems can detect FTL ships at up to 10 light years away.
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
KLM wrote:DMB2, page 153, under Sensor Systems:Military systems can detect FTL ships at up to 10 light years away.
I can see a problem with this though. Within a ten lightyear radius of your homeworld, there's probably around a dozen other stars, some of which (in the nice overpopulated space opera setting that is Phase World) will either be inhabited or have some sort of mining or research stuff happening.
And there's also going to be a lot of traffic. There's a fair chunk of your system's defence fleet on patrols or maneuvres. There's a ridiculous amount of cargo and passenger ships inbound and outbound. If you're on the frontier there's patrols or squadrons from other civilizations passing through the edge of their territory. There's all manner of ships passing through your scanner range that have no intention of stopping at your world. Unless the scanner system is ridiculously sophisticated and sensitive at extreme range, it's gonna be rather difficult to tell the difference between, say, a Kreeghor Dreadnought and a three mile long cargo hauler.
Plus of course time is of the essence. If you identify an enemy fleet at ten lightyears, you've got about two or three hours tops to scramble your defensive fleet. If you've got a relayed system of scanners in neigbhouring systems, even having a 40 lightyear radius gives you maybe half a day's notice, tops, before a whole invasion fleet comes crashing down on you.
And of course there's the fact that the enemy fleet doesn't have to go in a straight line. Let's say the CCW worlds all share scanner info, so that when a Kreeghor fleet cruises past Uninhabited System X on the border of CCW space, all CCW forces within a few hundred lightyears are placed on alert as soon as the scanners relay the info to 'em. That's great, but where are you going to send them? If that Kreeghor fleet decides to move for another day, it can strike any CCW world within 60 or 70 lightyears of where it was first detected. There's gonna be hundreds or even thousands of star systems within that range, dozens of which are likely to be inhabited.
And of course if the CCW and the Kreeghor are smart, when they decide to launch invasion fleets at each other it's gonna be big. After all, they know damn well that when they invade a system, reinforcements from every other system within 60 or 70 lightyears can get there in a day. So the solution? Send in a fleet so big it can hold back the collected fleets of dozens or even hundreds of worlds simultaneously, send it into invade a given star system, and have orders to retreat or move to another target once enemy reinforcements have reached a big enough level to pose a threat.
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glitterboy2098
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Re: Starship weight/displacement
observation over time (remember, even the fastest FTL will take an hour to cross that distance. most will take several) will allow you to plot the course of the detected ship, letting you estimate it's originating point.
the strength of the field will let you guess how massive the detected ship is.
of course, the big way to tell a hostile from a friendly? shipping lanes. dictate specific approaches for friendly ships to follow. leave pickets and defenses along those approaches in case an enemy attacks via that route. assume any ship coming in from any other approach is hostile, and send defensive forces out to intercept. just have them query the intruder before blowing it up. it still might be a friendly unable to reach a normal spacelane due to damage or orders..
the strength of the field will let you guess how massive the detected ship is.
of course, the big way to tell a hostile from a friendly? shipping lanes. dictate specific approaches for friendly ships to follow. leave pickets and defenses along those approaches in case an enemy attacks via that route. assume any ship coming in from any other approach is hostile, and send defensive forces out to intercept. just have them query the intruder before blowing it up. it still might be a friendly unable to reach a normal spacelane due to damage or orders..
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Glitterboy addressed nicely the problem, I just have to ice the cake.
Mind you, if Tom Clancy were to write in the 3Galaxies,
you just gave him ideas worth of the equivalent of 4 or 5
"Red Storm Rising".
Also, a lot is decided by the "laws" of space travel - means
of intercept possible, what that "M number" actually means,
are starship weapons limited to current "rockthrowing" range,
etc.
Doombringers rarely move without escort.
Cargo haulers (or even every starship) over a given size,
say 3-400 meters long (or more like over 200.000 tons)
are worth a "visual" check. Mind you, You mentioned
"insane amount of traffic" - that means intense interstellar
trade and that means a lot of patrol ships (there is both
need and funds for it).
And there is the issue of "ridiculously sophisticated". I bet
a tactical signal processing computer from the 1980's
(like those used on nukes or AEGIS ships) would be able
to tell a lot about starships, if the FTL sensors' output
is fed into them - it is just the question of filling the
"libraries", containing the various signals.
A lot of things happen simultanously in such a scenario.
CCW ambassadors (after writing their last will) are asking inconvenient
questions from Kreeghor dignitaries. Intelligence people confirm or
deny whether those Doombringers are actually loaded to full troop
capacity. Another branch of intelligence people are telling the dreams
of psikers and what they saw in crystal balls...
And finally more than one CAF admiral will harass me with plans of
preventive strikes (or at least a demonstration of force).
You opened a much greater can of worms I was presenting.
The original post was about Doombringers used for direct planetary
assault, since they can deliver troops directly to the surface.
However, I never stated that this scenario is likely to be used
against the CCW. More likely that smaller fishes would suffer
such an invasion, since the average CAF battlefleet is more than
able to kill a Doombringer and her escorts, and as things are,
the Emperor is NOT willing to put more than one Doombringer
under the command of a single officer, however loyal he
might be.
Discussing a TGE/CCW war is simply too big issue and we
even do not have a common (ie. canon) outline of TGE or
CAF forces, methods, etc.
You know, something like WB11: CWC.
Adios
KLM
Mind you, if Tom Clancy were to write in the 3Galaxies,
you just gave him ideas worth of the equivalent of 4 or 5
"Red Storm Rising".
Also, a lot is decided by the "laws" of space travel - means
of intercept possible, what that "M number" actually means,
are starship weapons limited to current "rockthrowing" range,
etc.
Rallan wrote: Unless the scanner system is ridiculously sophisticated and sensitive at extreme range, it's gonna be rather difficult to tell the difference between, say, a Kreeghor Dreadnought and a three mile long cargo hauler.
Doombringers rarely move without escort.
Cargo haulers (or even every starship) over a given size,
say 3-400 meters long (or more like over 200.000 tons)
are worth a "visual" check. Mind you, You mentioned
"insane amount of traffic" - that means intense interstellar
trade and that means a lot of patrol ships (there is both
need and funds for it).
And there is the issue of "ridiculously sophisticated". I bet
a tactical signal processing computer from the 1980's
(like those used on nukes or AEGIS ships) would be able
to tell a lot about starships, if the FTL sensors' output
is fed into them - it is just the question of filling the
"libraries", containing the various signals.
And of course there's the fact that the enemy fleet doesn't have to go in a straight line. Let's say the CCW worlds all share scanner info, so that when a Kreeghor fleet cruises past Uninhabited System X on the border of CCW space, all CCW forces within a few hundred lightyears are placed on alert as soon as the scanners relay the info to 'em. That's great, but where are you going to send them? If that Kreeghor fleet decides to move for another day, it can strike any CCW world within 60 or 70 lightyears of where it was first detected. There's gonna be hundreds or even thousands of star systems within that range, dozens of which are likely to be inhabited.
A lot of things happen simultanously in such a scenario.
CCW ambassadors (after writing their last will) are asking inconvenient
questions from Kreeghor dignitaries. Intelligence people confirm or
deny whether those Doombringers are actually loaded to full troop
capacity. Another branch of intelligence people are telling the dreams
of psikers and what they saw in crystal balls...
And finally more than one CAF admiral will harass me with plans of
preventive strikes (or at least a demonstration of force).
And of course if the CCW and the Kreeghor are smart, when they decide to launch invasion fleets at each other it's gonna be big. After all, they know damn well that when they invade a system, reinforcements from every other system within 60 or 70 lightyears can get there in a day. So the solution? Send in a fleet so big it can hold back the collected fleets of dozens or even hundreds of worlds simultaneously, send it into invade a given star system, and have orders to retreat or move to another target once enemy reinforcements have reached a big enough level to pose a threat.
You opened a much greater can of worms I was presenting.
The original post was about Doombringers used for direct planetary
assault, since they can deliver troops directly to the surface.
However, I never stated that this scenario is likely to be used
against the CCW. More likely that smaller fishes would suffer
such an invasion, since the average CAF battlefleet is more than
able to kill a Doombringer and her escorts, and as things are,
the Emperor is NOT willing to put more than one Doombringer
under the command of a single officer, however loyal he
might be.
Discussing a TGE/CCW war is simply too big issue and we
even do not have a common (ie. canon) outline of TGE or
CAF forces, methods, etc.
You know, something like WB11: CWC.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
-
glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13535
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: Starship weight/displacement
A lot of things happen simultanously in such a scenario.
CCW ambassadors (after writing their last will) are asking inconvenient
questions from Kreeghor dignitaries. Intelligence people confirm or
deny whether those Doombringers are actually loaded to full troop
capacity. Another branch of intelligence people are telling the dreams
of psikers and what they saw in crystal balls...
And finally more than one CAF admiral will harass me with plans of
preventive strikes (or at least a demonstration of force).
and one of the ready CCW fleets will be dispatched to cruise the border near the TGE, at the same time being in place to react to a TGE attack, and being a threat to TGE worlds, and the defense forces of CCW worlds within the reach of that TGE force are put on alert and told to be ready to scramble in defense...
not unlike the cold war here on earth. the soviets send a few bombers to skirt the borders of America (over alaska, or passing near canada). in response the politicians start delivering nasty letters, the fighters are scrambled to fly alongside so the soviets don't get any funny ideas, and allied bombers in europe and japan get put on alert and start flying patterns closer to the soviet borders.. after a few days both sides back down, having made a statement about their respective strengths and readiness, and things go bak to normal for a few months until it all start over...
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Re: Starship weight/displacement
glitterboy2098 wrote:
not unlike the cold war here on earth. the soviets send a few bombers to skirt the borders of America (over alaska, or passing near canada).
NATO E-3 Sentry planes flew 164 sorties form Orland, Norway,
to guide inteception of 40 russian long range bombers (not in
one force, of course), in 2007.
Power play always comes with testing the other side.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Not neccessarily. I mean the difference of "pure" warships and commercial
vessels are rather blurred.
In some cultures every ship is a warship.
In Center your ship might be parked between a Doombringer and a Dwarven Iron Ship,
with a Protector and a giant Dragon Dreadnought on the opposite side of the tier, since
Prometheans don't care.
(After all, each and every dock can be enveloped into the black, unmoveable, unpenetratable
phase field, untill people inside learn to behave).
Even today, military aircraft can join the commercial "corridors" as long as they have the
proper safety electronics. (For those corridors are the most economical routes of travel).
On the other hand the idea of space lanes might serve that purpose too. I mean separation
of civilian and combat vessels. Anything which strays away (as well as most things that
stay on the lane) is intercepted by a patrol ship.
However, when a surplus Packmaster shows up, with NE markings, claiming that they
are just transporting some stuff for the neighboring militia... Yes, 600 fully armed
Fire Eaters and lots of ammo, why?
Adios
KLM
vessels are rather blurred.
In some cultures every ship is a warship.
In Center your ship might be parked between a Doombringer and a Dwarven Iron Ship,
with a Protector and a giant Dragon Dreadnought on the opposite side of the tier, since
Prometheans don't care.
(After all, each and every dock can be enveloped into the black, unmoveable, unpenetratable
phase field, untill people inside learn to behave).
Even today, military aircraft can join the commercial "corridors" as long as they have the
proper safety electronics. (For those corridors are the most economical routes of travel).
On the other hand the idea of space lanes might serve that purpose too. I mean separation
of civilian and combat vessels. Anything which strays away (as well as most things that
stay on the lane) is intercepted by a patrol ship.
However, when a surplus Packmaster shows up, with NE markings, claiming that they
are just transporting some stuff for the neighboring militia... Yes, 600 fully armed
Fire Eaters and lots of ammo, why?
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Also, it depends on everyone's point of wiev, that actually how
intense is interstellar trade?
It is intense enough to keep NE and Hartigal both in business, all right,
as well as several other manufacturers. But beyond that... I mean most
planetary goverments are trying to be as self-sufficient as they can,
except maybe "core worlds" of estabilished powers - but those are not
likely first targets of any invasion.
(Or if they are, the enemy is either to be stomped on or simply beyond the
league of the target).
--------------------
There are also a few "canon" hints about interstellar "traffic control" and interdiction.
First, Axis-5 is a battlefield for decades because the planet have a - not really detailed -
strategic importance.
On the other hand, Smasher cruisers are - sometimes - able to slip through FWC interdiction
and snap off a few shots on FWC worlds. (This however does not rule out magically augmented
special ships).
Adios
KLM
intense is interstellar trade?
It is intense enough to keep NE and Hartigal both in business, all right,
as well as several other manufacturers. But beyond that... I mean most
planetary goverments are trying to be as self-sufficient as they can,
except maybe "core worlds" of estabilished powers - but those are not
likely first targets of any invasion.
(Or if they are, the enemy is either to be stomped on or simply beyond the
league of the target).
--------------------
There are also a few "canon" hints about interstellar "traffic control" and interdiction.
First, Axis-5 is a battlefield for decades because the planet have a - not really detailed -
strategic importance.
On the other hand, Smasher cruisers are - sometimes - able to slip through FWC interdiction
and snap off a few shots on FWC worlds. (This however does not rule out magically augmented
special ships).
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
With an occasional disagreement in the details, yes, that is why
Doombringers are created.
Mind you, that upon attacking a planet, several scenarios can happen.
Best case scenario for the TGE is when the Doombringer, stampedes
through planetary defenses, lands and begins to disgorge a few million
Legionaires, the planetary goverment capitulates without much further
action - similar to WWII Denmark, Nederland or Belgium.
Worst case scenario is when a Doombringer is intercepted by a CAF
wartime fleet (see DMB3, page 98) and not just vaporised, but
successfully boarded and surrenders.
Your one is something between, leaning towards the "best case"
scenario.
Adios
KLM
Doombringers are created.
Mind you, that upon attacking a planet, several scenarios can happen.
Best case scenario for the TGE is when the Doombringer, stampedes
through planetary defenses, lands and begins to disgorge a few million
Legionaires, the planetary goverment capitulates without much further
action - similar to WWII Denmark, Nederland or Belgium.
Worst case scenario is when a Doombringer is intercepted by a CAF
wartime fleet (see DMB3, page 98) and not just vaporised, but
successfully boarded and surrenders.
Your one is something between, leaning towards the "best case"
scenario.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
The main guns of the Kartuhm-Terek (the superheavy TGE tank)
in DMb2, pg. 148. qualify for this.
Adios
KLM
in DMb2, pg. 148. qualify for this.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Those are all some very interesting ideas too. And I just want to say I think Intelligence is going to play a huge role in any future conflicts in the Three Galaxies. I'm sure their are agents from all of the major players in place within the other major powers.
And what about Friend or Foe Identification electronics. With the sophistification of the electronics in Phase World it might be fairly easy to read what incoming vessels are. And in case of electronic spoofers the system pickets would hopefully be able to warn of anything nasty coming this way.
And what about Friend or Foe Identification electronics. With the sophistification of the electronics in Phase World it might be fairly easy to read what incoming vessels are. And in case of electronic spoofers the system pickets would hopefully be able to warn of anything nasty coming this way.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Silverhawks against a Doombringer:
They are designed for - and capable - boarding. But before you rethink the TGE strategy completely,
please give something to do to the 4000 marines onboard (of them, 2000 are PA pilots, and I think
most of them are kreeghor, machine people or silhouettes... Which makes them almost as dangerous
as a PA... NAKED.).
That said, it is still possible to board and capture a Doombringer... Just very hard.
IFF:
They are good, but cannot be trusted. For example, a busy trade hub routinely accepts ships which
came to "our" space the first and the last time - ie. no possible way for getting IFF transponder.
On the other hand, IFFs can be forged (or just removed from one ship and placed on
something else).
So, IFFs - while have their place - won't be as widely used as of today.
Adios
KLM
They are designed for - and capable - boarding. But before you rethink the TGE strategy completely,
please give something to do to the 4000 marines onboard (of them, 2000 are PA pilots, and I think
most of them are kreeghor, machine people or silhouettes... Which makes them almost as dangerous
as a PA... NAKED.).
That said, it is still possible to board and capture a Doombringer... Just very hard.
IFF:
They are good, but cannot be trusted. For example, a busy trade hub routinely accepts ships which
came to "our" space the first and the last time - ie. no possible way for getting IFF transponder.
On the other hand, IFFs can be forged (or just removed from one ship and placed on
something else).
So, IFFs - while have their place - won't be as widely used as of today.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
Re: Starship weight/displacement
That is what the pickets are for. Final checks on various ships moving thru the area. Ships have to be protected against pirates too.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Of course.
Mind you, ships with stats like the "Runner ship" (both the "Typical" and the "Stick in Your Eye")
are perfect examples of your basic "Coast Guard Corvette", maybe augmented with a PA squad,
filled with stuff for rescue, etc.
The whole cost of such vehicle is way below the cost of a Proctor or an FTL starfighter,
not to mention a Scimitar.
----------------
Another issue is, that in many instances pirating is done by regular "civilian" vessels,
since most craft are armed (not unlike in the age of sail). Also, it might happen quite
fequently, that - say - a CA ship decides to pounce on a Golgan vessel, since they
are in war... But for the Forge's sake, couldn't they wait untill they get out of CCW
space?!
The CCW also routinely checks cargoes of even tresspassing ships, liberating slaves,
arresting smugglers, etc.
Adios
KLM
Mind you, ships with stats like the "Runner ship" (both the "Typical" and the "Stick in Your Eye")
are perfect examples of your basic "Coast Guard Corvette", maybe augmented with a PA squad,
filled with stuff for rescue, etc.
The whole cost of such vehicle is way below the cost of a Proctor or an FTL starfighter,
not to mention a Scimitar.
----------------
Another issue is, that in many instances pirating is done by regular "civilian" vessels,
since most craft are armed (not unlike in the age of sail). Also, it might happen quite
fequently, that - say - a CA ship decides to pounce on a Golgan vessel, since they
are in war... But for the Forge's sake, couldn't they wait untill they get out of CCW
space?!
The CCW also routinely checks cargoes of even tresspassing ships, liberating slaves,
arresting smugglers, etc.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
"Conventional" FTL (ie. CG and Phase-tech) does cause disturbance in the time-space continuum,
that is the theoretical base of detection.
Rift drives however... Well, ha a Ley-line Walk... I mean Spacer on your payroll.
Adios
KLM
that is the theoretical base of detection.
Rift drives however... Well, ha a Ley-line Walk... I mean Spacer on your payroll.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:That space lane thing is logical enough. But aren't military ships supposed to be hidden from civilians as much as possible?
Space lanes wouldn't rule everything out though. It makes sense that most "local" traffic would come into your system from a relatively small range of directions, since all that traffic originates from a relatively small handful of stars in the local area. But long range traffic? Forget it. Their trip's already gonna take weeks (months if it's a long enough distance), and they're not gonna be very keen on the idea of having to add a whole bunch of unecessary distance to their journey by zigzagging from star to star on approved trade routes.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Rallan wrote: But long range traffic? Forget it. Their trip's already gonna take weeks (months if it's a long enough distance), and they're not gonna be very keen on the idea of having to add a whole bunch of unecessary distance to their journey by zigzagging from star to star on approved trade routes.
"Unidentified craft at 0234974, set course to 546.345. Comply immidiately, or we will open fire".
Honestly, a B-2 (or B-52) crew, after a sortie of like 40 hours, with some enemy fire, a few inflight
refuelling is still expected to follow the course given by the tower. They can request a shorter
route, but until it is permitted, they better stick to the rule.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
That is another hazy section of the "canon".
I mean, currently there is no way to pull a ship out ot FTL except
maybe sabotage.
Nothing like pulling aside the other ship, firing a broadside or two
then throw the grapnels ands board. Oh, and Yarrrrr...
Adios
KLM
I mean, currently there is no way to pull a ship out ot FTL except
maybe sabotage.
Nothing like pulling aside the other ship, firing a broadside or two
then throw the grapnels ands board. Oh, and Yarrrrr...
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
I've seen interdictors in more than one space opera RPG,
(flown them in a few MMORPGs too ), can do Trek
technobabble for like 20 minutes, in English, despite
that I am not a native speaker...
...but this does not change the fact: there is no "canon"
option to prevent a ship going to FTL, pull it out of FTL
or chase her in "warp" and blast enough holes into the hull
so she stops, except
a, sabotage
b, cripple before leaving gravity wells
Of course, any GM worth his weight in rocks can implement
rules and/or toys for that reason.
However, these solutions will probably make other housemade
designs pointless.
Adios
KLM
(flown them in a few MMORPGs too ), can do Trek
technobabble for like 20 minutes, in English, despite
that I am not a native speaker...
...but this does not change the fact: there is no "canon"
option to prevent a ship going to FTL, pull it out of FTL
or chase her in "warp" and blast enough holes into the hull
so she stops, except
a, sabotage
b, cripple before leaving gravity wells
Of course, any GM worth his weight in rocks can implement
rules and/or toys for that reason.
However, these solutions will probably make other housemade
designs pointless.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Very interesting ideas everyone of them. I've used that very idea of "Runner ships" KLM! I've always like those sort of ideas. I've used them before as covert ops ships too. They are nice and ideal for inserting covert teams into dangerous places.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
Re: Starship weight/displacement
It's because the ships by moving thru FTl disturb the nature of space itself. Those disruptions can be detected by Phase World level sensors.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:actually seeing a ship in FTL is probably stupid.... how can one visually see an FTL ship?...
There are several ways:
1, have a good sensory system and the future version of photoshop, so it can
render together the fragments, counter the Doppler effect, and so on.
In the end, from the rainbow, which just speeded away, you can see
the outlines of the big E
, maybe even read the markings NCC-1701E 2. if going FTL mean that you either leave this reality (Phase drive)
or create a bubble of realspace and move that move faster than light
(which conveniently contains your ship), entering into that bubble
usually means visual contact.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
Re: Starship weight/displacement
It still should make a noticable distrubance in space time continium. Something that space faring societies should be able to detect.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Darkmax wrote:one cannot optically see a space-time disturbance. For that the equipment must be of considerable technology. Anyway, I meant using one's eyes.
KLM wrote:Darkmax wrote:actually seeing a ship in FTL is probably stupid.... how can one visually see an FTL ship?...
There are several ways:
1, have a good sensory system and the future version of photoshop, so it can
render together the fragments, counter the Doppler effect, and so on.
In the end, from the rainbow, which just speeded away, you can see
the outlines of the big E
2. if going FTL mean that you either leave this reality (Phase drive)
or create a bubble of realspace and move that move faster than light
(which conveniently contains your ship), entering into that bubble
usually means visual contact.
Adios
KLM
Addition to point 1.:
Energy - ie. light reflecting your hull, emitted by you lights and engines, etc - does
leave the FTL "bubble" - your it is "smeared" along the ship's path, therefore you need
some sensors which collated that picture.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
Re: Starship weight/displacement
If you are light years away from the ship's vector, yes. Mind you, from that range
getting a visual contact is impossible even if both the target and the observer
are STL.
Adios
KLM
getting a visual contact is impossible even if both the target and the observer
are STL.
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Actually we can already measure gravitational anamolies to a limited extent already. They (NASA) used a sensor on Mythbusters when the guys were testing anti-gravity myths.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
Re: Starship weight/displacement
Aramanthus wrote:Actually we can already measure gravitational anamolies to a limited extent already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lor%C3%A1n ... 6tv%C3%B6s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eotvos_%28unit%29
Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.
- Terry Prachett
Small font: use ctrl+c and copy it, so you can read. But since it is in small fonts, it is not important. I am not a NE salesperson.