Cyber-knights....too powerful.

[Killer Cyborg]

And who do you think that was in the main book? Which class beats every other class in every way?

What are you getting at?

Since you're apparently wandering into the middle of things without bothering to read the conversation as a whole, I'll save you some time and effort:
My point is that the classes in the main book were pretty solidly balanced.

The closest thing to an overpowered OCC was the original Cyber-Knight, so they really didn't need to be improved upon, even to balance out power creep.

[Rockwolf66]

Ok, as it seems that the Cyberknights should be Anti-supernatural does anyone here care to make a Cyberknight level progression chart that would reflect this?

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, as it seems that the Cyberknights should be Anti-supernatural does anyone here care to make a Cyberknight level progression chart that would reflect this?

As much as I abhor the changes to the class, it has been mentioned since the main book that one of the theories about the CKs' purpose is to combat the Coalition specifically. This is one of several theories, but it is there. Many people have assumed that CKs are supposed to be champions against the supernatural, but that doesn't make it so.
(Of course, there isn't any reason why people can't make whatever rules and flavor they want in their own games)

[Shadyslug]

Maybe they're just meant to be a deterrent? I mean...like a mechanism to try to keep the CS in a bit of "check."

[Killer Cyborg]

The closest thing to an overpowered OCC was the original Cyber-Knight, so they really didn't need to be improved upon, even to balance out power creep.

And I say that in a stand up fight (the best way to gauge power), Borgs, Mind Melters, Dragons & even Mages, are all more powerful starting out than a starting out C-Knight. It's a matter of math.

And if you'll recall, I say that if all you ever do in your games is stand-up fights, that's your deal.
A lot of the rest of use make use of non-combat skills and powers, and it's the character's ability overall that I'm discussing.

[Talavar]

The closest thing to an overpowered OCC was the original Cyber-Knight, so they really didn't need to be improved upon, even to balance out power creep.

And I say that in a stand up fight (the best way to gauge power), Borgs, Mind Melters, Dragons & even Mages, are all more powerful starting out than a starting out C-Knight. It's a matter of math.

Infact, even at High levels they ***** the Knight.

But come SoT, that all changes. An 8th level borg, Juicer, CS Power Amor Pilot...etc. are ALL punk't hard, by guys that Lord "Coakain" doesn't even want fighting the CS. If they wer trained to fight the CS, than why has he always gone out of his way to Nice-Up to Prozak?

Really, mages? What is a level 1 mystic going to do against a cyber-knight? Against any combat class? Even level 1 ley line walkers and shifters aren't much to talk about. At high levels they are much more powerful, but that's kinda how magic classes usually work.

A level 1 mind melter isn't going to be a combat monster, but yes, depending on what super-psionics they take, they could beat almost anyone - at short range. Spamming bio-manipulate: paralysis until everyone fails their save is a lame, but incredibly effective tactic.

Dragons hatchlings are tough, but can actually suck in combat, particularly at first level. They don't necessarily have a high PP, and they can't get much combat or physical training. And if the fight is at long range, they better hope they nail that 24% teleport ability sooner rather than later.

Borgs are generally better, yes, but with a significant in-game trade off. Same with juicers and crazies.

Cyber-knights are also open to more creative exploitation, shall we say, because almost everything can be a cyber-knight, which isn't true of borgs, juicers, crazies, mind melters, and power armor pilots.

So it's not really true that cyber-knights are overpowered, but they were somewhat powerful without the downside that most of the really powerful classes have.

[Killer Cyborg]

No, I still recall your original, insultingly toned, comment to that measure. And I recall making it clear that it's not how I play my games, But that it IS the best way of determaning whether an OCC/RCC is, or is not over powered.

No, it's not.
Because there's more to power than just combat.

And Give that's what we are talking about, why do you keep prattling on about "How I, KC am a better...No Wait...I'm the BESTEST player AND GM of all time. I can fly and I shoot beez out of my ****.".

Because the bee thing is really cool, and I like to brag about it.

Also, because you keep trying to narrow the scope down to just combat, and it's counterproductive.

I don't care about "How you play", as you style of play is not indicative to producing an answere as to If the C-Kinghts is over-powered or not. Since we all've not played in YOU grand games, we can not see any of your examples you speek soooo fondly of.

As such, we are basing this all on PB's given stats. Which is the only way we can even Have a discussion. If we go by your messuring stick, no one should ever bother Posting here again, as we'd all have to here about how "In MYYYYYYY(KC) games, I'm smarter than you! So don't discuss things".

Actually, I'm mostly dissing your style, not bragging about my own.
And really, I'm not even doing that, because you have already admitted repeatedly that there's more to your games than just combat.
So all I'm really doing is pointing out that your insistence that one class is superior to another class simply because they excel in the limited arena of straightforward combat is grossly inaccurate, even in your own games.

[Crazy Lou]

Well... i kinda like the change to the cyber armor, and the idea of the zen combat was cool, but I think it gives an amazing advantage to them over anything except SN and CoM and such, since almost everybody uses at least some tech... I think that at a somewhat reduced level, and with more focus on general combat, or and equal focus on fighting SN evil and magic as tech. Overall though, this was imo an update to keep the old CK legend competitive with the inevitable power creep that'd been going on for a good while.

[Shotgun Jolly]

Two, they are not Jedi knock offs, they are the student's of one of Kevin's buddies characters who was transported to rifts earth and made into a canon part of the setting.

Did he come from a Galaxy far far away?


Sorry, could resist..

[AlanGunhouse]

When you compare a Cyberknight to a Dragon Hatchling or some of the Psychic characters, I do not see them having that much of an advantage. That, btw, is only in the RUE book itself. Once you start looking at characters in other books, Cyber-knights need the edge they have just to break even. They are victims of Power Creep (An insidious HU villain who slowly increases the powers of all around him until everyone goes out of control ) That is the same reason Bursters and Psi Stalkers can now defend themselves from mega damage, when they could not in the original book, and Ley Line Walkers can now create a defense field for themselves while on Ley Lines.

[Defender_X]

It's kinda hard to debate KC. But I do like the CK as of RUE, I've seen people object to the tech focus of the zen combat. It does boil down to a theme and setting issue. If you make even the supernatural forces of darkness enarmored of tech to various degrees, then you have something there. If the zen combat can be used against TW to some degree, then again, it fits the NA setting at least a little better. In NA, it's not which one is better, even the supes see tech as a quick way to boost power. So, since every bad guy may use tech to some degree, CKs as is have a purpose. If not, then 4th level on, get creative and add in some variations to the mix, it's you campaign.

[Crazy Lou]

If not, then 4th level on, get creative and add in some variations to the mix, it's you campaign.

Always an excellent solution...

[Baron mugwort]

I have nothing to say.

[csbioborg]

When you compare a Cyberknight to a Dragon Hatchling or some of the Psychic characters, I do not see them having that much of an advantage. That, btw, is only in the RUE book itself. Once you start looking at characters in other books, Cyber-knights need the edge they have just to break even. They are victims of Power Creep (An insidious HU villain who slowly increases the powers of all around him until everyone goes out of control ) That is the same reason Bursters and Psi Stalkers can now defend themselves from mega damage, when they could not in the original book, and Ley Line Walkers can now create a defense field for themselves while on Ley Lines.

The OCCs getting the hose are the CS Troops ever single class that is actualy played from Burster to Indian OCCs to Psi Stalkers is MDC now. Many MAge classes now have more attacks than CS COmmandos. I swear its a reaction to CS becoming popolar and palladium wanting to disaude people from playing the "bad guy". Before to long ALL Dwenor Citizens are going to have a +2 attacks for being one with the Three. Cyber KNights will all have super psinonics becasue of there training and every Reserve citizen will be MDC. But the CS will stil be the big scary war machine

Some of the mutant animls erk me to a standard monkey boy gets 2d6+7 Intelligence. Higher on average than a human. A lab monkey gets Pity? 1d6+1 bonus. that means 3d6+8 intelligence. That is strkingly higher than the human average. Remember they are made with human tech.

[Talavar]

The OCCs getting the hose are the CS Troops ever single class that is actualy played from Burster to Indian OCCs to Psi Stalkers is MDC now. Many MAge classes now have more attacks than CS COmmandos. I swear its a reaction to CS becoming popolar and palladium wanting to disaude people from playing the "bad guy". Before to long ALL Dwenor Citizens are going to have a +2 attacks for being one with the Three. Cyber KNights will all have super psinonics becasue of there training and every Reserve citizen will be MDC. But the CS will stil be the big scary war machine

That doesn't make any sense. First, bursters and psi-stalkers can both work for the CS. Second, what mage classes have more attacks than a CS commando? A mystic knight or battle mage could have about the same number, and they're pretty limited magically. The pure-mage classes, your average shifter, ley line walker, mystic or techno-wizard, they're only going to have 4 or 5 attacks.

[csbioborg]

sure it does. Most coaltion games is gong to involve a squad of special forces wildeness scouts etc. THey rarely have those two OCCs. THose two are found just as often among. the Coaltin's enemies as not. Sure you could play a team of Coalition MInd Melters but how realistic is that.


It also takes a lot from takes away from the role playing aspect as well. Often times you are not going to get a group to role play if thier burster just has to raise his auro and he is protected from damage.

If you recall the rifter short sotries Siege of Tolkeen the rifter in that was a reaonably belivable elf that while a burster had to struggle in the story.. Put in the same position he would have laughed at the oppistion and gone on his merry way. SUre you could make it a master valire that happens to be a 15 level mage to get the same result but that makes it more unrealistic in a world where normal humans are supposed to be able to surivve

as for battle magnus and mystic knight they often end up with one attack more the point being CS commando. The temporal warrior is always at least a extra attack. The point is CS COmmando trains 12 hours a day doing one thing the magic classes spend 12 hours a day training in a variety of things so they presumably are at most spending 6 hours on magic 6 on fighting. That is being genours. They are now beter than the guy that spend all his time training to fight.

It also detracts from many of the fun classes that are not to powerful like the conjurer. You can do a lot ith a conjurer in a epsionage game but n pure slashem they tend to put on mdc armor and wield a rifle.

[Dog_O_War]

sure it does. Most coaltion games is gong to involve a squad of special forces wildeness scouts etc. THey rarely have those two OCCs. THose two are found just as often among. the Coaltin's enemies as not. Sure you could play a team of Coalition MInd Melters but how realistic is that.


It also takes a lot from takes away from the role playing aspect as well. Often times you are not going to get a group to role play if thier burster just has to raise his auro and he is protected from damage.

If you recall the rifter short sotries Siege of Tolkeen the rifter in that was a reaonably belivable elf that while a burster had to struggle in the story.. Put in the same position he would have laughed at the oppistion and gone on his merry way. SUre you could make it a master valire that happens to be a 15 level mage to get the same result but that makes it more unrealistic in a world where normal humans are supposed to be able to surivve

as for battle magnus and mystic knight they often end up with one attack more the point being CS commando. The temporal warrior is always at least a extra attack. The point is CS COmmando trains 12 hours a day doing one thing the magic classes spend 12 hours a day training in a variety of things so they presumably are at most spending 6 hours on magic 6 on fighting. That is being genours. They are now beter than the guy that spend all his time training to fight.

It also detracts from many of the fun classes that are not to powerful like the conjurer. You can do a lot ith a conjurer in a epsionage game but n pure slashem they tend to put on mdc armor and wield a rifle.

So you're comparing the normal dude that trains 12 hours per day with the magical dudes that train 12 hours a day.....Why would you assume that normal dude should be better?

I mean, compare skills with those magical dudes and they suck arse compared to a commando; but they are all made for war (re: Battle magus, Mystic Knight, Temporal Warrior); should not the people capable of altering reality with a wave of their fingers or a flexing of their minds be superior in combat? I think that those qualifications offer that they are better in this reguard.

You'll note though the amount of each type there are though; you'll have half a dozen CS commandos for every one of those other OCC's; that does not translate to a player-based group though since the game isn't balanced in this manner.
Do you know of or play Warhammer 40k? compare a Space Marine to an Imperial Guardsmen; You're looking at a single man that is worth two regular dudes, except that game is set up to show this balance. Rifts is not (as far as players and OCC's is concerned). Realistically though the balance is there in that you'll encounter a single Mystic Knight compared to a half dozen commandos, possibly with dogboys and a mind-melter. Could a squad of commandos take a Mystic Knight? Yes; firepower and attacks (as well as skills) is something they hold to their advantage over that Knight.

Should a guy that can time-travel be suseptable to a lone, non-magical/psychic dude? Hellz no.

Does playing a "weak" OCC take away from RP? No; in-game power does not equate better role-playing. Infact this is a non-point in that RP and personal power have nothing to do with each other. Being able to lift 1000 Lbs., or cast FIREBALL! doesn't make me the better actor, only the better weight-lifter or impossibility creator.

Also, stories in books need not follow the rules; look at the comics done by Perez about that group in Rifts; half of them didn't even wear armour; I call that the quickest way to a forced character change.

Also, if attacks = fun in your games then you should stick to octo-man gunslingers. Possibly superhero wizards (ones with tons of attacks boosting powers as to maximize the "fun" element of the game).

[csbioborg]

sure it does. Most coaltion games is gong to involve a squad of special forces wildeness scouts etc. THey rarely have those two OCCs. THose two are found just as often among. the Coaltin's enemies as not. Sure you could play a team of Coalition MInd Melters but how realistic is that.


It also takes a lot from takes away from the role playing aspect as well. Often times you are not going to get a group to role play if thier burster just has to raise his auro and he is protected from damage.

If you recall the rifter short sotries Siege of Tolkeen the rifter in that was a reaonably belivable elf that while a burster had to struggle in the story.. Put in the same position he would have laughed at the oppistion and gone on his merry way. SUre you could make it a master valire that happens to be a 15 level mage to get the same result but that makes it more unrealistic in a world where normal humans are supposed to be able to surivve

as for battle magnus and mystic knight they often end up with one attack more the point being CS commando. The temporal warrior is always at least a extra attack. The point is CS COmmando trains 12 hours a day doing one thing the magic classes spend 12 hours a day training in a variety of things so they presumably are at most spending 6 hours on magic 6 on fighting. That is being genours. They are now beter than the guy that spend all his time training to fight.

It also detracts from many of the fun classes that are not to powerful like the conjurer. You can do a lot ith a conjurer in a epsionage game but n pure slashem they tend to put on mdc armor and wield a rifle.

So you're comparing the normal dude that trains 12 hours per day with the magical dudes that train 12 hours a day.....Why would you assume that normal dude should be better?

I mean, compare skills with those magical dudes and they suck arse compared to a commando; but they are all made for war (re: Battle magus, Mystic Knight, Temporal Warrior); should not the people capable of altering reality with a wave of their fingers or a flexing of their minds be superior in combat? I think that those qualifications offer that they are better in this reguard.

You'll note though the amount of each type there are though; you'll have half a dozen CS commandos for every one of those other OCC's; that does not translate to a player-based group though since the game isn't balanced in this manner.
Do you know of or play Warhammer 40k? compare a Space Marine to an Imperial Guardsmen; You're looking at a single man that is worth two regular dudes, except that game is set up to show this balance. Rifts is not (as far as players and OCC's is concerned). Realistically though the balance is there in that you'll encounter a single Mystic Knight compared to a half dozen commandos, possibly with dogboys and a mind-melter. Could a squad of commandos take a Mystic Knight? Yes; firepower and attacks (as well as skills) is something they hold to their advantage over that Knight.

Should a guy that can time-travel be suseptable to a lone, non-magical/psychic dude? Hellz no.

Does playing a "weak" OCC take away from RP? No; in-game power does not equate better role-playing. Infact this is a non-point in that RP and personal power have nothing to do with each other. Being able to lift 1000 Lbs., or cast FIREBALL! doesn't make me the better actor, only the better weight-lifter or impossibility creator.

Also, stories in books need not follow the rules; look at the comics done by Perez about that group in Rifts; half of them didn't even wear armour; I call that the quickest way to a forced character change.

Also, if attacks = fun in your games then you should stick to octo-man gunslingers. Possibly superhero wizards (ones with tons of attacks boosting powers as to maximize the "fun" element of the game).

your analogy regarding Space Marines fail on several levels. First and most importantly, the Adeptus Astrates are all gentically altered to the height of human technology from a early age. The commando and mage OCCs mentioned are not bioborgs or cyborgs. A more porper analogy would be a warlord of russia heavy borg being akin to a astrates. Furthermore the Astrates live much longer and are contantly in battle that equals a higher level on average.


Your right the person that can bend time to his will shuldn't be getting beat by the comanndo. HOwever he should be using his temporal powers to do it. As written the temporal warrior is stronger than the comando in a no magic winner take all brawl. If he as winning becasue he casts temporal magic to augment his skills that would be fine.

As written these are regular human being that have devoted themselves to deifferent endeavors with all there hearts. For one who mulitasks between various crafts to beat the comando at the one thing he does is not logical.

So now I don't want the temporal warrior to be on par with the comando I want the temporal warrior to at lweast have to use his teporal powers to be able to defeat the commando. Becasue right now all it looks like he is doing is using his powers to get more than 12 hours to train in the day.,

[csbioborg]

It forces good role play when you charecters are blanced to the rest of the world. The Siege of Tolkien example was a good illustratin of it. You take a group and put them in a bar. You want them to talk thier way out of a conflict you have to options. Make the charecters at least somewaht close in strenghth to normal humans or make the bar all super human. IF the setting has plenty of super humans fine. However rifts is supposed to be Post apoc setting with lots of regular humasnfightng for survival. It is not rits if every bar has a indian shaman, three borgs, mind melter, you get the point.

last point I ma not comparing a regular dude with one that is magical.

That is condusing the effect before the caue. Mystic knights aside. All the mage warrior classes can be taken by a regular run of the mill human. He trains 12 hours a day in orer to get said powers with some devoted to training for the fight. Other regular human trains 12 hours a day to become the very best fighter he can be.

[Dog_O_War]

your analogy regarding Space Marines fail on several levels. First and most importantly, the Adeptus Astrates are all gentically altered to the height of human technology from a early age. The commando and mage OCCs mentioned are not bioborgs or cyborgs. A more porper analogy would be a warlord of russia heavy borg being akin to a astrates. Furthermore the Astrates live much longer and are contantly in battle that equals a higher level on average.

It has only failed on one level; you missed the point I was making. The game of 40k has a space marine pegged at about 15 points; guardsmen cost 6 points. You get 2-1/2 guardsmen per space marine; the average kill ratio the space marine will achieve versus guardsmen before he bites it. It is a game that contains that type of balance. In order to achieve that type of balance, you have to equate the commando to the guardsman and the "powered" OCC's to the space marine. It had nothing to do with their respective backgrounds, only as a basis for comparison in balance.

Your right the person that can bend time to his will shuldn't be getting beat by the comanndo. HOwever he should be using his temporal powers to do it. As written the temporal warrior is stronger than the comando in a no magic winner take all brawl. If he as winning becasue he casts temporal magic to augment his skills that would be fine.

Due to OCC the temporal warrior gets a bonus attack; there is no real elaboration on why this is, so I would assume that temporal magic has affected him in some way. This would mean that while the effect isn't expressly magic, it's not exactly spell-worthy. I mean if you could cast a spell that granted you additional actions, would you not want that spell? Especially the way casting works now? But there is no spell quite like that, so they have clearly relegated the effect to OCC; similar to how Commandos get HtH commando (regular dude with auto-dodge. Now Juicers aren't so bad-ass).

As written these are regular human being that have devoted themselves to deifferent endeavors with all there hearts. For one who mulitasks between various crafts to beat the comando at the one thing he does is not logical.

As written they've recieved special commando training; nothing more, nothing less. In play they see as much or as little action as the GM finds appropriate - they aren't super-soldiers that can take anyone in a hand to hand fight. I mean compared to a "normal person" hero class from HU (the physically trained), the commando blows. I'd rather my commando training were 12 hours of the physically trained fast-focused hero than commando; clearly how the CS is making these commandos do their push-ups isn't as superior as you'd like to believe.

So now I don't want the temporal warrior to be on par with the comando I want the temporal warrior to at lweast have to use his teporal powers to be able to defeat the commando. Becasue right now all it looks like he is doing is using his powers to get more than 12 hours to train in the day.,

training isn't like dragonball Z here; you can't just spend 16 hours per day for a year "getting more powerful" and expect to see an incredible increase in effectiveness. Compare the training of soldiers around the world; US snipers (for instance) are considered some of the best, yet sniper competitions, as well as quality of soldier produced here in Canada are shown to be better. (I'm not attempting to bait or start some type of "who's soldiers are better?" flame-war here; If you don't believe me, that is fine. But I hold by my statement and ask only that you check it out for yourself).
Is our training longer? Probably not. Is it of better quality? I would say so, because our equipment is shoddy and ill-supplied at best.
What I'm getting at here is that just because the CS trains a commando doesn't mean he's recieving the same quality of training a temporal warrior recieves; The CS commando has to train 12 hours per day to equate to the 6 the temporal warrior might spend on the physical aspect, meanwhile that leaves him with 6 hours to spend on the mental aspect.

It forces good role play when you charecters are blanced to the rest of the world. The Siege of Tolkien example was a good illustratin of it. You take a group and put them in a bar. You want them to talk thier way out of a conflict you have to options. Make the charecters at least somewaht close in strenghth to normal humans or make the bar all super human. IF the setting has plenty of super humans fine. However rifts is supposed to be Post apoc setting with lots of regular humasnfightng for survival. It is not rits if every bar has a indian shaman, three borgs, mind melter, you get the point.

You can't force a person to role-play "good", no matter what the scenario; the players could be invincible, all-controlling gods and that wouldn't offer that they'd play their respective roles any better than joe-vagabond just looking to survive to see tomorrow. Infact the best RP'd character I've ever read about was a girl playing a male human peasant in a game of D&D. She has three things working against her there; the character is of the opposite gender; the character lives in a time of feudalism, as well as magic; the character was several steps removed from her own economic status (re: she was an employed college student while her character was a homeless vagabond camping in the woods).

Did the power difference make her RP better? No, she was a good RPer so her character was RP'd well. As to the GM's choices on background (like your above listed bar) that is not in a players' control; you can only react to those situations, and how you react is determined by your ability to RP a situation. Not how your character's stats and status size up to it.

[csbioborg]

It has only failed on one level; you missed the point I was making. The game of 40k has a space marine pegged at about 15 points; guardsmen cost 6 points. You get 2-1/2 guardsmen per space marine; the average kill ratio the space marine will achieve versus guardsmen before he bites it. It is a game that contains that type of balance. In order to achieve that type of balance, you have to equate the commando to the guardsman and the "powered" OCC's to the space marine. It had nothing to do with their respective backgrounds, only as a basis for comparison in balance.

You are changing the topic then. I am simply arguing the merits of two groups of humans with a finite amount of achieving differnt starkly different results. I am fine with a game that has a godling or heavy borg beside a vagabond. While that is imbalanced that is relasitc in the game setting.


Due to OCC the temporal warrior gets a bonus attack; there is no real elaboration on why this is, so I would assume that temporal magic has affected him in some way. This would mean that while the effect isn't expressly magic, it's not exactly spell-worthy. I mean if you could cast a spell that granted you additional actions, would you not want that spell? Especially the way casting works now? But there is no spell quite like that, so they have clearly relegated the effect to OCC; similar to how Commandos get HtH commando (regular dude with auto-dodge. Now Juicers aren't so bad-ass).

The palladium OCCs enumerate powers gained through magic or other supernatural ablites in practically every OCC. You are saying that now they have to not ear mark the bounus even with a they recieve a +2 to attack becasue of there oness with casulity or some other simlar remark. As written a temporal warrior could be striped of all his powers and still get that +1. For example he recieves CS. control implants or some other mechinsm that elimnates his supernatural powers his +2 is still there.

As written they've recieved special commando training; nothing more, nothing less. In play they see as much or as little action as the GM finds appropriate - they aren't super-soldiers that can take anyone in a hand to hand fight. I mean compared to a "normal person" hero class from HU (the physically trained), the commando blows. I'd rather my commando training were 12 hours of the physically trained fast-focused hero than commando; clearly how the CS is making these commandos do their push-ups isn't as superior as you'd like to believe.

I'm not going to compare charecters from different setting until dog boys need to get bio e points.

So now I don't want the temporal warrior to be on par with the comando I want the temporal warrior to at lweast have to use his teporal powers to be able to defeat the commando. Becasue right now all it looks like he is doing is using his powers to get more than 12 hours to train in the day.,

training isn't like dragonball Z here; you can't just spend 16 hours per day for a year "getting more powerful" and expect to see an incredible increase in effectiveness. Compare the training of soldiers around the world; US snipers (for instance) are considered some of the best, yet sniper competitions, as well as quality of soldier produced here in Canada are shown to be better. (I'm not attempting to bait or start some type of "who's soldiers are better?" flame-war here; If you don't believe me, that is fine. But I hold by my statement and ask only that you check it out for yourself).

I'll make one quick comment on the supiority statement. One you lump army and marine together when army sniper school has far lower standards. Furthermore Canada has a very small military per capita. As such they can afford to have higher selection standards than US forces. I have worked with the army so lumping them in I could see that.


Is our training longer? Probably not. Is it of better quality? I would say so, because our equipment is shoddy and ill-supplied at best.
What I'm getting at here is that just because the CS trains a commando doesn't mean he's recieving the same quality of training a temporal warrior recieves; The CS commando has to train 12 hours per day to equate to the 6 the temporal warrior might spend on the physical aspect, meanwhile that leaves him with 6 hours to spend on the mental aspect.

Sure I'll bite. First off you are comparing two identical OCCs i.e. snipers and saying one levels faster than the other which is fine. Training is not like dragon ball Z. Okay let's take martial arts as example. I have trained at a lot of camps. There are really bad camps good camps and great camps. There are fundamental movements in grappling and striking that are going to stay constant. Much of what you are doing is the same training with top level people and with good people. The difference really is how much time you put into it. The bad camps have no idea how to train therefore produce crappy fighers. The good and the great camps do fundmentally the same thing. The great camps tend to just do much more of it and push there guys harder.

Now the CS is not a bad camp or they would have died out long ago. They at the least are a good camp. There are no seceret tecniques or hidden combos there is simply training on some fiarly fundemntal movements. Now is solidering more complex than that of course. However the CS is a military machine that is designed to produce soldier in the same way that the order of the mystic kinghts pumps them out (I am only chaging OCCs just becasue there is no order of temporal warriors). I'll accept that one might have a marginally better training camp. However it is not going to be to the extent that they can train both in mystical arts and fighting and still be better than a person training all the time at one or the other. That is reflected in the difference between a battle magnus and a leyline walker (I am switching OCCs again becasue you'd conter the tempral mage vs warrior witth they have the same teacher)
the same cannot be said for the man of arms classes even its elite i.e. the commando.

It forces good role play when you charecters are blanced to the rest of the world. The Siege of Tolkien example was a good illustratin of it. You take a group and put them in a bar. You want them to talk thier way out of a conflict you have to options. Make the charecters at least somewaht close in strenghth to normal humans or make the bar all super human. IF the setting has plenty of super humans fine. However rifts is supposed to be Post apoc setting with lots of regular humasnfightng for survival. It is not rits if every bar has a indian shaman, three borgs, mind melter, you get the point.

You can't force a person to role-play "good", no matter what the scenario; the players could be invincible, all-controlling gods and that wouldn't offer that they'd play their respective roles any better than joe-vagabond just looking to survive to see tomorrow. Infact the best RP'd character I've ever read about was a girl playing a male human peasant in a game of D&D. She has three things working against her there; the character is of the opposite gender; the character lives in a time of feudalism, as well as magic; the character was several steps removed from her own economic status (re: she was an employed college student while her character was a homeless vagabond camping in the woods).

Did the power difference make her RP better? No, she was a good RPer so her character was RP'd well. As to the GM's choices on background (like your above listed bar) that is not in a players' control; you can only react to those situations, and how you react is determined by your ability to RP a situation. Not how your character's stats and status size up to it.[/quote]

You could have used a different example since my point was charecters that are balanced or weaker to the setting are more apt to be forced to role play better. My point is in the agreate you will have better role playing if the charecters are reaosnbly balanced to the setting. Even with hack in slash "bad" role players you but them as vagabounds in a tradtional rifts bar they are forced to get out of that bar fight creatively. Give them a high powered charecter they will just fight there way out. Even decent roleplayers will do this if a npc provocted them.. So you have the option of either changing the rifts setting so that said bar will be unrealisticaly full of high powered charecters or keeping the classes somewhat blanced to the game world where a burster dosen't have mdc auras at will and has to talk his way out of the situation if you want to stay true to a vision of a post apoc world of regualar humans trying to survive. If you'd like the former it would be better it is problay better to put that bar in center or Dweonor instead of the average town in rifts.

[Chad]

I think what CS Bioborg is stating- is a magic user should rely on magic and rituals more than anything else. A CS Commando should rely on strategy and his weapons more than anything else. For one to be just as good in an area of expertise as another takes away from that OCC's 'uniqueness' and is not very realistic. For a Temporal Warrior, regardless of the quality of his training, to be spending time developing skills that he will likely never use; simply does not make any sense.- much like a Canadian sniper.

[csbioborg]

I actually don't mean that. I actually mean 1)the above arguement presupposes that every Temproal warrior in the megaverse is being trained in a manner that allows him to train so much more efficently that he is able to become better than a Commando at fighting using half the time allocated.

If one where to compare to groups of temporal warriors that might hold watrer and would be reflected in the fact they gain levels faster. However when talking about a entire occupation the broad arguement that every single temporal warrior who are trained by a variety of different manners mind you are gong to be trained better to such a degree that they are going to be more than twice as efficent in thier training is not realistic.

Due to OCC the temporal warrior gets a bonus attack; there is no real elaboration on why this is, so I would assume that temporal magic has affected him in some way. This would mean that while the effect isn't expressly magic, it's not exactly spell-worthy. I mean if you could cast a spell that granted you additional actions, would you not want that spell? Especially the way casting works now? But there is no spell quite like that, so they have clearly relegated the effect to OCC; similar to how Commandos get HtH commando (regular dude with auto-dodge. Now Juicers aren't so bad-ass).


as a codicil to what I wrote above after I got home I looked up Phase World and what do you know. Oni Ninja have to burn off 5 permant ppe to get autododge. Looks like something similar like a bonus to attack would invovle something similar if it were done by a supernatural appartus

[Crazy Lou]

isn't this supposed to be about cyber-knights anyway?

I think that maybe if this is going to continue, it should get it's own "game balance" thread?

[Killer Cyborg]

isn't this supposed to be about cyber-knights anyway?

I think that maybe if this is going to continue, it should get it's own "game balance" thread?

It's all linked together in one big knot.
The complaint that CKs have gotten too powerful hinges partially on them becoming imbalanced, which rests on the question of whether or not the game was balanced to begin with.

[Crazy Lou]

isn't this supposed to be about cyber-knights anyway?

I think that maybe if this is going to continue, it should get it's own "game balance" thread?

It's all linked together in one big knot.
The complaint that CKs have gotten too powerful hinges partially on them becoming imbalanced, which rests on the question of whether or not the game was balanced to begin with.

fair enough... I suppose then that my $.02 is that it was as balanced as you wanted to play it. There's always been enough room within the rules (and within a game -- its own distinct matter really) to keep things balanced if you want to, but I don't know that precise balance was at the top of the priority list when the game first came out. Rifts isn't exactly an MMO -- the entire game doesn't hinge on the perfect and delicate balance between all classes because so very much greater a level of control is in the hands of the players and the GM. Balance issues tend to resolve themselves (if they ever crop up), or so my experience has been.

[Chad]

csbioborg:
I actually don't mean that. I actually mean 1)the above arguement presupposes that every Temproal warrior in the megaverse is being trained in a manner that allows him to train so much more efficently that he is able to become better than a Commando at fighting using half the time allocated.

In that case, my apologies. However, after reading your post, I still think we're talking about the same thing. I may not have phrased my wording right.

Everyone uses "strategy and weapons".

What you mean is that CS soldiers should focus on strategy and weapons involving technology, and that mages should do the same with magic.

Your absolutely right. This is exactly what I meant to say instead of imply.

Which is unrealistic. In a pinch, people use whatever they need to use to survive.

No- in the heat of battle, when the adrenaline gets pumping (ie. in a pinch), people fall back on what they are most familar with (their training).
A Boxer in a streetfight is not going to try and grapple with somebody. A Jujitsu expert is not going to make a Ba-step and revert to a twin-yang heaven palm.
People don't think about that which is most effective, they think about that which they are most accustomed to.
I'm in tactical entry. I've been trained in first aid. If somebody is dying on the floor in front of me and a paramedic is standing beside me- the paramedic is going to be better equipped to handle the situation. If we were entering an unknown premises, I'm going to know to stay in line, cut the pie, perform a flashlight roll if I come across a dark room- the paramedic probably doesn't even understand half of what I'm talking about. It is hard for people to use whatever they need in order to survive when they don't understand the basic concepts. Much less, not training at it everyday.
In the case of the Temporal Warrior, where his mental stats are going down while the Commando's are going up, it seems 'unrealistic' that he would be on par with a Commando in terms of strategy and weapons. It seems 'unrealistic' that his physical stats would be so much higher than a Commandos' (with out the aid of magic) when the Commando is participating in more physical hand to hand combat training.
I'm not saying that a Temporal Warrior should not be able to b*tch-slap a Commando across space and time with everything being equal. But exhaust a Temporal Warrior's PPE and a Commando's E-clips, put them in a room, leave them alone for a few melees and the Commando should walk out first everytime.

[Talavar]

In the case of the Temporal Warrior, where his mental stats are going down while the Commando's are going up, it seems 'unrealistic' that he would be on par with a Commando in terms of strategy and weapons. It seems 'unrealistic' that his physical stats would be so much higher than a Commandos' (with out the aid of magic) when the Commando is participating in more physical hand to hand combat training.
I'm not saying that a Temporal Warrior should not be able to b*tch-slap a Commando across space and time with everything being equal. But exhaust a Temporal Warrior's PPE and a Commando's E-clips, put them in a room, leave them alone for a few melees and the Commando should walk out first everytime.

Rifts basically has "elite" classes, classes that are just better than others - the temporal warrior is one of those, the battle magus another, the mega-juicer a third. I don't think any of the CS OCCs qualify - the best combatants the CS can field, individually, can always be trumped by a non-CS counterpart. I'm not saying I agree with this, it's just the way Rifts seems to be.

Cyber-knights always straddled that line, between a normal OCC and one of these "elite" ones, with their tons of skills, decent combat, & minor psionics. Now they've moved further in the elite direction.

[csbioborg]

the whole point of this thread is to voice are disdain for that Talavar.

Chad what the heck is a Ba-step and revert to a twin-yang heaven I done my share of martial arts in my life and even Eddie Bravo's weird setup names doesen't come close to that

[Talavar]

the whole point of this thread is to voice are disdain for that Talavar.

Like I said, I'm not saying I like it, but I just call 'em like I see 'em. To use D&D terminology, Rifts has prestige classes, but you don't need anything special to qualify for them - except maybe a permissive GM.

[Chad]

Chad what the heck is a Ba-step and revert to a twin-yang heaven I done my share of martial arts in my life and even Eddie Bravo's weird setup names doesen't come close to that

sent ya a pm.

[Dog_O_War]

Can't you pretty easily argue that quite a few CS PC's would/should be allowed to start out with at least a light suit of PA in modern settings?

Nevermind the RPA's and such...

Is that not included in the discussion because it isn't innate ability?

Thought that was always the equalizer, numbers, tactics, and huge goddamn robots with huge goddamn guns.

Maybe; that is a project of monumental undertaking though. Balancing out "weaker" OCC's with stronger ones. This could bode very well for the vagabond. Hell, you might get your own hobo-community to start!
That said, The CS commando isn't on-par with the Cyber Knight, or the Mystic Knight, or the Battle Magus. They are simply superior classes. Training aside, it won't matter if you spent 20 hours per day 7 days a week training if your OCC says you get <blank> and only <blank> for bonuses.
If it were meant to be fair and equal then it would've been that way from the get-go.

[csbioborg]

Can't you pretty easily argue that quite a few CS PC's would/should be allowed to start out with at least a light suit of PA in modern settings?

Nevermind the RPA's and such...

Is that not included in the discussion because it isn't innate ability?

Thought that was always the equalizer, numbers, tactics, and huge goddamn robots with huge goddamn guns.

Maybe; that is a project of monumental undertaking though. Balancing out "weaker" OCC's with stronger ones. This could bode very well for the vagabond. Hell, you might get your own hobo-community to start!
That said, The CS commando isn't on-par with the Cyber Knight, or the Mystic Knight, or the Battle Magus. They are simply superior classes. Training aside, it won't matter if you spent 20 hours per day 7 days a week training if your OCC says you get <blank> and only <blank> for bonuses.
If it were meant to be fair and equal then it would've been that way from the get-go.

don't you see something fundmentally wrong with that. You are arguing the mechnics of the game. Everyone else is arguing the realism verisutude whatever of a system that could have two equal humans go train., One spending all his time learning how to soldier the other spending most of his time learning to harness his mystical energies then in a straight up mundane fight. Put eba and a c12 in these guys hands the guy that was spending most of his time learning spells to soldiering will win.

[csbioborg]

I thought the guy who was learning spells would have to be in non-EBA to cast?

Equalizer: called shots.

your missing the point. He dosen't even need to cast spells
he could beat him in nonmagical mudane fight

no spells needed.

[AlanGunhouse]

The UWW power armor is a TW creation, and is magically linked to its user, which is why a UWW magic specialist can cast spells, even in environmental body armor.

[Dog_O_War]

Can't you pretty easily argue that quite a few CS PC's would/should be allowed to start out with at least a light suit of PA in modern settings?

Nevermind the RPA's and such...

Is that not included in the discussion because it isn't innate ability?

Thought that was always the equalizer, numbers, tactics, and huge goddamn robots with huge goddamn guns.

Maybe; that is a project of monumental undertaking though. Balancing out "weaker" OCC's with stronger ones. This could bode very well for the vagabond. Hell, you might get your own hobo-community to start!
That said, The CS commando isn't on-par with the Cyber Knight, or the Mystic Knight, or the Battle Magus. They are simply superior classes. Training aside, it won't matter if you spent 20 hours per day 7 days a week training if your OCC says you get <blank> and only <blank> for bonuses.
If it were meant to be fair and equal then it would've been that way from the get-go.

don't you see something fundmentally wrong with that. You are arguing the mechnics of the game.

What else is there to argue? You're complaining about the mechanics of the game, why then should I argue from a different vantage point? Your complaint is that because you see the CS commando as some super-dedicated training nut, they should be the best there is out there as far as hand to hand is concerned.
I don't see it that way, and neither do alot of the other posters. You can only offer speculation as to why it should be, and I can only do the same. Because we cannot offer any hard, canonical proof as to the whys of each OCC's training and how it is better than most others, we can only go by the mechanical.
I see the wrongness of it, but really what else is there?

Everyone else is arguing the realism verisutude whatever of a system that could have two equal humans go train., One spending all his time learning how to soldier the other spending most of his time learning to harness his mystical energies then in a straight up mundane fight.

This is where nobody will ever see eye to eye. I don't see them as two equals for one. The other is that I don't see the CS commando as someone who spends all their time training. Thirdly, I don't see how mundane training regimens trump magical ones on any level. For all we know the temporal warrior views time and space as viscous, and has learned how to move through it better thanks to abit of magical help - help to the point of where he no longer needs the magic but retains the benefits. Again, this is speculation; we don't really know what a temporal warriors' training is like. The same goes for the CS commando - for all we know their training was basically, "you, what's 2+2?" "SIR! whatever the Emperor Prosek wishes it to be, SIR!" and now you've got a commando.

Put eba and a c12 in these guys hands the guy that was spending most of his time learning spells to soldiering will win.

This is nothing but speculation; they don't have any actual field-time with magic-users. This means their methods are untested (and thus unreliable), and all they really know (thanks to war-stories and propaganda) is that "magic is a powerful and deadly tool. Be wary for your foe can summon demons and throw fireballs, as well as tear you right out of your armour!"

How do you train to counter-act stories and legends?

[AlanGunhouse]

Yes, they have something like Airburst munitions in the Coalition Navy book if I recall. And you need to remember one point, those meathods are perfect for fighting large and basicly immobile foes, such as armies or giant monsters. For fighting individuals, who may well be hidden, under cover, or moving erraticly, such means are a waste of resources that may be hard to replace.

[Vrykolas2k]

Easy arguement to solve: **** balance.
Not every game needs to be D&D 3.x or whatever.
Play to your character's strengths, and try to mitigate the character's weaknesses.
I've run plenty of games with SDC and MDC beings in the same group, and every character was useful. They all had pretty much the same life expectancy, it just depended on how they were played.

[csbioborg]

Look all I know is when i was in the Corps we didn't dily dattle around all day We trained and trained hard. A commando is suposed to be training even harder than a refular grunt OCC like me. No SF forces are not meant for big battles. They just fought a four year war against a magic for so even a green private recently got back from the front. And SF units are not green they are designed take out small groups

[Talavar]

Look all I know is when i was in the Corps we didn't dily dattle around all day We trained and trained hard. A commando is suposed to be training even harder than a refular grunt OCC like me. No SF forces are not meant for big battles. They just fought a four year war against a magic for so even a green private recently got back from the front. And SF units are not green they are designed take out small groups

An average grunt trains hard every day, but not for a terribly long time before getting sent out to active duty. US basic training can be as little as 15 weeks. A commando would definitely train longer before going out into the field, but how much longer? A couple of years? A temporal warrior trains for at least 6 and up to 14 years before completing their apprenticeship. That's one potential source of the skill-disparity.

[Dog_O_War]

Look all I know is when i was in the Corps we didn't dily dattle around all day We trained and trained hard. A commando is suposed to be training even harder than a refular grunt OCC like me. No SF forces are not meant for big battles. They just fought a four year war against a magic for so even a green private recently got back from the front. And SF units are not green they are designed take out small groups

You're equating real-life experience to something that you know nothing about. Make the judgement call again when you've done temporal warrior training in real life.