Once again A Tatoo Magic Question

[Marcethus]

I am wondering a couple of things. First of for the Flaming Weapon Tattoo; on a tattoo bow. does it come with arrows or do you have to have tats of the arrows as well. 2. if you have tat arrows with flames and what not can they be used on any bow?

now for the last part. In SDC settings what is the effect of the Flaming Weapon? in MD worlds it deals MD Damage but in SDC worlds what would be the purpose of said Flaming Tattoo?

Any assistance would help in this matter.

[Talavar]

I say you would need flaming arrows, not a flaming bow. The bow just delivers them, it's the magic arrows that do the mega-damage.

In SDC settings the effect of the flaming tattoo is to allow the weapon to harm things that can only be harmed by magic weapons.

[Marcethus]

no other effect?

[Talavar]

Not so far as I know.

[Misfit KotLD]

I'd allow double damage or so.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A flaming bow would only do damage (MD in rifts) when the char used the bow itself as a striking weapon. Would count as a magic weapon vs those immune to mundane weapons and that are weak against magic.

The T-Archer is covered in the Atlantis 2 Book S Dimensional Market. They cover the creation of arrows there.

[Marcethus]

i am not talking about power arrows I am taking about normal flaming arrows. and as to the effect of Flaming weapon in SDC environs it seems checking with the GM would be best as it seems to be a unknown as to what the exact effect would be.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Normal flaming arrows do standard damage, then if there are things to set on fire they will be ignited unless the fire is put out.

[Misfit KotLD]

Pretty much. That's another ambiguous place in the rules.

[Misfit KotLD]

Normal flaming arrows do standard damage, then if there are things to set on fire they will be ignited unless the fire is put out.

Flaming weapon tattoo gives the normal damage in MDC. Are you saying then even in SDC settings the tattoo allows MDC to be dealt?

[Marcethus]

Normal flaming arrows do standard damage, then if there are things to set on fire they will be ignited unless the fire is put out.

So far as I understand the Tattoo does not cause the weapon to be "flaming" it is a normal weapon that is "magical" and in MDC Settings it does MD I am trying to figure out what the effects of the tattoo would be in SDC settings.

[Misfit KotLD]

Magic weapon tattoos do double damage and are considered magical for all purposes, including harming invulnerable beings.

This is a houserule for Nekira's SDC Rifts/NB game.

[Marcethus]

Thanks Misfit.

[Misfit KotLD]

You are welcome.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Normal flaming arrows do standard damage, then if there are things to set on fire they will be ignited unless the fire is put out.

So far as I understand the Tattoo does not cause the weapon to be "flaming" it is a normal weapon that is "magical" and in MDC Settings it does MD I am trying to figure out what the effects of the tattoo would be in SDC settings.

Normal flaming arrows= mundane physical arrows with some sort of mundane fire attached to them. Otherwise know as Fire Arrows.

Thus I was ansewing the question about normal flaming arrows

i am not talking about power arrows I am taking about normal flaming arrows.
...snip

Since Flaming Tatt weapons are always magical, the answer to what 'normal flaming arrows' would be the same as what mundane fire arrows would do because that is what normal flaming arrows are.

Thus once your quiver is out of fire arrows you need to go to a fletcher to buy some more, before you can play pyromaniac again.

[Library Ogre]

Ok, normal MDC tattoo bow, with non-MDC arrows. Given that the arrows themselves are indestructible, and the bow is producing MDC force, why shouldn't it do MD?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ok, normal MDC tattoo bow, with non-MDC arrows. Given that the arrows themselves are indestructible, and the bow is producing MDC force, why shouldn't it do MD?

MDC is structure, not damage.
If using [normal weapons tatt: arrows], they would do the rated SD for arrows.

[Library Ogre]

Ok, normal MDC tattoo bow, with non-MDC arrows. Given that the arrows themselves are indestructible, and the bow is producing MDC force, why shouldn't it do MD?

MDC is structure, not damage.
If using [normal weapons tatt: arrows], they would do the rated SD for arrows.

But most of the damage of archery comes from the bow... the arrow isn't incidental, but its really secondary to the strength of the bow. All tattoo weapons are indestructible, weather they're Simple Weapons or Magic Weapons, so it's not that the magic bow is an MDC structure... it's indestructible. That's beyond gigadamage, even.

[drewkitty ~..~]

'No matter how much SD a weapon does, even in a single attack, it will never hurt a MDC construct.'
To paraphrase the rules about the difference between MDC/MD and SDC/SD.

Yes, Yes. In know there are exceptions, but those are listed in the weapon's descriptions.

A 'simple weapons' tatt only make sd weapons, not MD weapons.
(this will be my last comment on this till I review the A2:SDM book)

[Library Ogre]

I'll point you to RamJet rounds, which do MD on a burst, and SDC on a single shot.

[Marcethus]

Normal flaming arrows do standard damage, then if there are things to set on fire they will be ignited unless the fire is put out.

So far as I understand the Tattoo does not cause the weapon to be "flaming" it is a normal weapon that is "magical" and in MDC Settings it does MD I am trying to figure out what the effects of the tattoo would be in SDC settings.

Normal flaming arrows= mundane physical arrows with some sort of mundane fire attached to them. Otherwise know as Fire Arrows.

Thus I was ansewing the question about normal flaming arrows

i am not talking about power arrows I am taking about normal flaming arrows.
...snip

Since Flaming Tatt weapons are always magical, the answer to what 'normal flaming arrows' would be the same as what mundane fire arrows would do because that is what normal flaming arrows are.

Thus once your quiver is out of fire arrows you need to go to a fletcher to buy some more, before you can play pyromaniac again.

I wasn't talking about non Tattoo arrows. In the BoM/Splynn book they have a Power Arrow Tattoo which is Flame Arrows (might be called Fire Arrows) I was referring to the Normal Flaming Weapon Tattoo depicting Arrows not a Power Arrow Tattoo. That is what I meant.
And given that the context of this thread is about Tattoos, when I mentioned I didn't mean the Power Arrow Tattoos and meant the Normal Flaming Arrows it should have been taken as meaning the "Flaming Arrow Tattoo" not a fracking normal flaming arrow.

[Marcethus]

I'll point you to RamJet rounds, which do MD on a burst, and SDC on a single shot.

They are one of a few of the Exceptions.

[drewkitty ~..~]

list of arrow types
--normal arrows: mundane, commonly made out of wood and metal, with some sort of 'pointy end'.
--high tech arrows: mundane, basicly a normal arrow with a tech warhead on the end in place of the 'pointy end', commonly being tipped with High Explosives.
--Magic arrows: these a ussully made in the shape of normal arrows but being made out of exotic matierials and are sometime indestructable.
--'Magic Tattoo' Arrows: these fall into three subsets
---Simple Weapon(arrows): these act as if the above 'normal arrows' but are magic constructs and faid at the end of the magic.
---Magic weapons(arrows): these are activated just like other Magic weapon Tatts and have the same abilities
---Power Arrows: These specilty 'magic tattoo' arrows that are a cross between Magic Weapons and Power tatts, inflicting an effect on what they hit.

Just thought to list them out so we can all start talking from the same page.

[Library Ogre]

I'll point you to RamJet rounds, which do MD on a burst, and SDC on a single shot.

They are one of a few of the Exceptions.

But, again, the damage for archery is really provided by the bow itself.

[drewkitty ~..~]

But, again, the damage for archery is really provided by the bow itself.

But the damage 'in the PB system' is rated as per the arrow.
I'm not arguing about reality.

[Marcethus]

Unfortunately Palladium doesn't always use logic and reality in their rules in some cases. Like with the arrows.

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, Steeltree wood Bows do damaged based on both the bow and the arrow. A Steeltree bow with a normal arrow will only do SDC damage because the arrow can not take the pressure of inflicting MDC. A Steeltree bow with an MDC arrow inflicts MDC based upon the type of bow, not the type of arrow. Steeltree arrows used in regular bows inflict 1 MD.

[Marcethus]

Never heard of Steeltree bows

[Library Ogre]

Well, Steeltree wood Bows do damaged based on both the bow and the arrow. A Steeltree bow with a normal arrow will only do SDC damage because the arrow can not take the pressure of inflicting MDC. A Steeltree bow with an MDC arrow inflicts MDC based upon the type of bow, not the type of arrow. Steeltree arrows used in regular bows inflict 1 MD.

Yes, but as you said, the SDC arrow can't handle the pressure of inflicting MDC... which doesn't matter when the SDC arrow is indestructible.

[Neorealist]

To solve this one; there is a reason the "bow and arrow" tattoo is called that; it's because the Bow and Arrow Tattoo comes with an arrow! (typically anyway, winged bow and arrow tats come with 4); and thus the ammunition inherits whatever modifications are done to the tattoo. (flaming, blood dripping, winged, etc)

Of course T-archers can summon arrows which have various effects, but the basic tattoo summons it's own ammunition. (might want to seriously consider getting winged on it though, so they come back...)

[Marcethus]

Well, Steeltree wood Bows do damaged based on both the bow and the arrow. A Steeltree bow with a normal arrow will only do SDC damage because the arrow can not take the pressure of inflicting MDC. A Steeltree bow with an MDC arrow inflicts MDC based upon the type of bow, not the type of arrow. Steeltree arrows used in regular bows inflict 1 MD.

Yes, but as you said, the SDC arrow can't handle the pressure of inflicting MDC... which doesn't matter when the SDC arrow is indestructible.

They do have a few Bows and arrows that do inflict MDC, but they are few and far between. Most of the ones that do are magical or Like the Larhold bow and the Native American one listed in Spirit West, meant for use by creatures with SNPS but there are plenty of arrow types that will inflict MDC via tech or Magic.

[Marcethus]

Thank you Gadrin for the most on topic answer for my Question.

[Marcethus]

Thanks Gadrin for confirming what I thought.

[AlanGunhouse]

Steeltree Weapons are from Dinosaur Swamp, and they are one of the few items that a normal person can use to inflict mega damage. I believe it says that you can only fire tattoo arrows from a tattoo bow, if that is what you are talking about for "indestructable arrows".

As to the question of arrows in tattoos, the bow always has 4 arrows as drawn, and the weapon with wings tattoo does let them return...as well as tripling the range. Certain T-archer magic arrows are unable to be returned and reused though.

[Marcethus]

Steeltree Weapons are from Dinosaur Swamp, and they are one of the few items that a normal person can use to inflict mega damage. I believe it says that you can only fire tattoo arrows from a tattoo bow, if that is what you are talking about for "indestructable arrows".

Thank you for the info regarding the location of Steeltree weapons. In regards to the Tattoo arrows, So far as I have found it doesn't say one way or another, which is why one of the reasons I posted my question in the first place.

[AlanGunhouse]

Actually, it only specifies that the power arrows can only be used from a tattoo bow, but I would think the implication was that the arrows which are PART of the bow and arrow tattoos can only be used with the bow from that tattoo as well.

[Thinyser]

Under the Winged weapon tattoo it states specifically "Typically four arrows in the tattoo; one of any other type of weapon." Although not specifically stated for flaming arrows I would use the same rule as a guide. Also all the power arrows except the alarm arrow create 4 arrows for the PPE price listed, adding weight to my stance.

I've always played that when activated the "Bow & Arrow Tattoo" comes with 4 starndard (SDC damage, non-flaming non-winged) arrows "free" with the 2 PPE activation price. The Flaming bow and arrow tattoo (which is what they mean when they refer to a "Power bow" in Splynn) is needed to use power arrows. I treat this Flaming bow and arrow as one magical weapon tatt activated for 10 PPE and comes with 4 MD dealing (i.e. "flaming") arrows and a bow that will deal MD as a blunt weapon if used in melee. This is IMO less than fair as a MD "flaming" sword tatt has more than 4 swings worth of damage in it where an arrow shot in battle is usually unretrievable at least for the moment... to make a flaming bow and arrow tattoo really battle ready you have to add wings to it.

The total cost then is 10 PPE for the bow and 4 "flaming" arrows, and an additional 20 to add wings for a total of 30 PPE to create a "power bow" and 4 "flaming" winged arrows...

A good T-archer will also have a normal SDC bow and 4 arrow tatt that he can use for hunting and/or target practice (for only 2 PPE activation its a bargain) as well as a "flaming" power bow tatt w/o wings for just the 10 PPE so that if he plans on using only "power arrows" he doesn't need to waste the extra 20 PPE for wings on arrows he wont be shooting anyhow.



Just my 2 cents.

[Marcethus]

Thanks for the opinion but my question is in no way regarding the T-Archer and his Power Arrows.

[Thinyser]

Thanks for the opinion but my question is in no way regarding the T-Archer and his Power Arrows.

Thats why I gave you the "Under the Winged weapon tattoo it states specifically "Typically four arrows in the tattoo; one of any other type of weapon." tidbit which is canon.

It is my opinion that even if its not specifically stated for "flaming" arrows I would use the same rule as a guide.

I assume they all work the same, so the regualar bow and arrow tattoo would create a bow and 4 standard SDC arrows, while the bow and "flaming" arrow tattoo would create a bow and 4 MD dealing arrows... just like the bow with winged arrows tattoo would create a bow and 4 arrows, as is stated in the canon winged weapon info.

Not truly 100% direct canon proof but a with a very minor extrapolation it can be used as a good guide and has noting to do with T-archers. I have difficulty believing that they want you to spend 2 PPE to conger the bow and then 10 PPE for each MD "flaming" arrow, while you could spend 30 PPE and get a bow and 4 "flaming" & winged arrows (32 PPE if you want to charge the 2 PPE for the bow seperate from 30 for the arrows though IMO this is harsh treatment as it would then also count as 2 tatts active and requre 2 actions to get both bow and arrows ready to use.)

Pointing out the fact that all of the power arrows, except the alarm arrow, create 4 arrows for the listed PPE price is further canon evidence (though again, not direct) that Palladium intends arrows to be created in groups of 4.

It was more or less a foot-note that the "Power bow" and "flaming bow" tattoos are one and the same, and this really has no relevance to your line of questioning so I apologize if it seemed like I was puting that there to strengthen my stance it was just meant as a fun fact.

[AlanGunhouse]

Actually, it does say, "Each power arrow activation counts as a separate tattoo activation, but can only be used in conjuction with a Magic Tattoo Weapon of a Bow or Crossbow in flames." It also states that if you have flaming and winged in the same tattoo you can choose to only activate one aspect or the other, so you so not need two different tattoos for that part (that one is stated in the Atlantis book, not the Splynn book).

[Thinyser]

Actually, it does say, "Each power arrow activation counts as a separate tattoo activation, but can only be used in conjuction with a Magic Tattoo Weapon of a Bow or Crossbow in flames."

Yes but it does not say this for the normal bow and arrow or about non power arrows. "Magical weapon arrows" ie ones with flames or winged or any of the options in the atlantis book are not considered "power arrows" and would IMO not have to be a second activation, as the power arrows are. The bow and arrow tattoo is one tattoo for purposes of activation, it just cannot be combined as a bow and power arrow tattoo.

It also states that if you have flaming and winged in the same tattoo you can choose to only activate one aspect or the other, so you so not need two different tattoos for that part (that one is stated in the Atlantis book, not the Splynn book).

I cannot find where it says that a flaming weapon with wings has a selection of just flaming, just winged, or both. Please point me to where it says this in Atlantis.

Oh I wonder if that is a change in the Atlantis revised, I have the old one.

[Thinyser]

I think he means p88...

Hmm I see that it says "additional PPE to activate the wing feature", and this certainly could be taken to mean that its activation is optional and that if you have a plain SDC arrow with wings you can chose to activate the arrow w/o wings for 2 PPE and then activate the wings for an additional 5 PPE. Assuming that SDC, Flaming, Serpent wraped and Power arrows are treated the same for purposes of activation and the actual creation of the tattoos there is good evidence that the activation of the tattoo is one action and that the PPE for the wings is expended when the tattoo is activated

Most (not all) Power Arrows can be combined with the "wings" feature, but the T-Archer must have the weapon tattoo that shows four arrows with wings on them. To activate this Weapon with Wings tattoo, the cost is an additional 20 P.P.E., but arrows enchanted with the winged weapon tattoo fly three times farther than normal (roughly 2000 feet/610 m), and immediately return to the T-Archer, effectively giving him an unlimited payload for the full duration of the magic!

So to activate any power arrow with wings you spend 20 more PPE than the power arrow tattoo normally costs just like when you activate a flaming arrow with wings tattoo... it doesn't say that you have a choice. It says its additional PPE to activate "the tattoo" as in the entire winged weapon tattoo. You have a choice of either putting the wings on it and spending the 20 more PPE every time you activate it or you have the choice of having the tattoo without wings.

for instance I have a Flaming, Winged set of 4 arrows, I pay 10 PPE to activate the Flame, then another 5 to activate the Wing portion (pay 15 PPE up-front) and it's done in one action.

The wings take 20 to activate on "flaming" arrows just like on power arrows so it would be 30 PPE total... and if you think that its an optional PPE expendature turn on the wing feature then I would treat it as a seperate tattoo that the T-man activates after another weapon tatt is active and the wings attach themselves to the weapon in hand. As its a second tattoo activation it would requre a second action. Even if there is no second tattoo to add wings to weapons I would still treat it as another action if you're going to treat it as an Optional and therefore destinct PPE expenditure.

IMO if the weapon has wings on it then it always has wings on it and when activated the additional PPE for activating the wings is spent and since its treated as one tattoo its one action.

Since the FW-Arrows don't require a special bow (that I remember anyhoo) I use my own shortbow which means they'll fly ~1000+ feet and do 1D6 MD each.

right

I don't see why they couldn't be fired from a normal bow. Only power arrows have a restriction on what bows can fire them.

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, I would think the wings feature is part of the main tattoo that can optionally be activated, but you are free to have a different opinion.

[Marcethus]

I too would say that the wings while being an optional activation would still only take 1 action to activate as they are part of a single tattoo. Nowhere that I have found that it says that the wing counts as a separate tattoo. Now I have seen such things said about the Flaming when combined with the dripping blood but not when combining Flaming and wings.

[Thinyser]

I too would say that the wings while being an optional activation would still only take 1 action to activate as they are part of a single tattoo. Nowhere that I have found that it says that the wing counts as a separate tattoo. Now I have seen such things said about the Flaming when combined with the dripping blood but not when combining Flaming and wings.

I don't think you should be able to have it both ways. Either its linked to the main tattoo and always activates with it, or its an optional activation and activates seperatly requiring a seperate action.

Nowhere does it say that the activation is optionl it just says that there is additional PPE spent to activate that feature. If one is assuming that the activation is optional (and that is a streatch IMO) then it has to have a destinct and seperate activation action as this goes hand in hand with a seperate activation cost despite the fact that it is a part of the main tattoo.

When you get into allowing "part" of a tatto to be activated then a player can argue that his T-man activates his weapon tattoo for 2 PPE then activates the wings on this weapon for 5 then turns on the flames for 10 but for a total of 17 (instead of the normal 30) PPE but he can do this all in one action because its one tattoo... Saying that its one tattoo and that if you activate it it will have the wings and you will pay for them is much less prone to abuse. If one is going to allow for this possible abbuse then the least one should do to offset this is to requre a seperate and destinct activation action.

[AlanGunhouse]

It is only the Wings that specify that can be optionally activated, nothing else says it can in the Atlantis book.

[Marcethus]

It is only the Wings that specify that can be optionally activated, nothing else says it can in the Atlantis book.

What he said

[Thinyser]

It is only the Wings that specify that can be optionally activated, nothing else says it can in the Atlantis book.

Just to be clear it does NOT say they can be optionaly activated, it just says the PPE is additional to the other features of the tattoo which some interpret to mean is also optional.

[AlanGunhouse]

I beg to differ, this is the only tattoo that says, "Additional PPE to Activate the Wings Feature", legally speaking, that implies the feature DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ACTIVATED.

[Marcethus]

I agree with Alan on this one. With the wings tattoo being the only tattoo to mention that the additional PPE needed to be used to activate that makes it sound very much like it is an optional feature that doesn't have to be used when the tattoo is activated. But that's not to say that once the tattoo is activated that a person could just spend the amount to activate the wings feature once the tattoo is active. they would have to dismiss the tattoo and reactivate it at full cost with the wing option if they wanted the wing feature.