Deadly MD: Getting them Out of the Armor Occasionally

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, even assuming you CAN keep the armor on constantly, you can alwaus give them reason to WANT to remove it.

1) Places to explore where the armor will not fit.

2) Things to eat / drink which can not taken while in armor (throw a feast for the characters).

3) Things to do which the character might want to feel (say, for example, an attractive mate).

4) Places to go where armor is simply not allowed.

None of those force the character to remove the armor, they can choose not to go places or do things.

If you must be heave handed, however, make it so that armor which takes a critical hit requires repairs that can only be done with the armor off.

[Killer Cyborg]

What exactly do you do to get them out of the armor, and more importantly, how do you make them less scared while they are, without removing their awareness or nerfing the danger of the game?

The only real reasons I can think of to get out of EBA are:
1. Hygiene- Let them know when their armor starts to stink. After a while, have them make PE checks to keep the armor on.
2. Comfort- After a while, even the most comfortable armor gets cumbersome. Make a rule to the effect that a character can only wear his/her armor for 1 hour per PE point. After that point, they start to cramp and otherwise suffer effects from the extra weight/bulk. Assign some combat and movement (including prowl, acrobatics, etc). These penalties will go away after the character spends 30 minutes out of the armor for every hour he spent wearing it.
3. Social - Wearing combat gear is sometimes considered an insult or sign of hostility. The local king, mayor, sheriff, etc. might take unkindly to the PCs showing up to dinner at the castle/mansion/whatever decked out in armor (or sometimes just hanging out at the local bar, or going shopping, or even wandering the streets).

[talmor]

I'm not exactly sure what does/doesn't work, as I haven't run in a while. But, what about "SDC level" adventures. Perhaps a murder mystery investigation, or tracking down a rogue member of the Black Market as a "favor" for the local boss...something along those lines. A game set in a city/town where no one else is wearing MDC armor, so as such the players stick out like sore thumbs, and no one is running around with mega damage weapons. Including the ideas mentioned above (comfort, hygiene, etc.), and maybe the players will choose deliberately to not wear the armor when not appropriate.

I think it's the players making rational decisions based on the rules and game play. According to the rules, some dumb peasant can off you with one shot/stab with one of these weapons, but if wear the armor, you'll be ok, with the added bonus of being completely immune to the other category or weaponry. So, in raw physical terms, it is reasonable to wear MD armor whenever you can.

Secondly, if the vast majority of combats that you are involved in involve guys fighting guys using MD weapons, and most adventures feature such combat, then naturally that's what the players will prep for.

I imagine that giving them a number of adventures where they see nothing more threatening than a .38 special will get them used to and comfortable being out of their armor. On top of that, if you don't want to have a MD power armor filled slug fest, give the PC's time to prep well in advance. Like, they need to storm the gangs hideout, and terrified locals tell them "but, but...they have LASERS" and the PC's get to be all big damn hero with "they'll need more than THAT" or whatever...

Finally, what about the non-armored characters. The mages with amulets, the 'Borgs, Dragons, Tattooed Men and all the rest. If you have even a few characters who are always armored no matter what, doesn't that only encourage the more "squishy" folk in the party to armor whenever they can? Isn't it a tad unfair to ask them to make themselves vulnerable when the dragon in the party can just walk around with all his MDC no matter what form he's in?

[Todd Yoho]

1. Hygiene- Let them know when their armor starts to stink. After a while, have them make PE checks to keep the armor on.

There is a section in Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp that addresses this issue.

[Killer Cyborg]

1. Hygiene- Let them know when their armor starts to stink. After a while, have them make PE checks to keep the armor on.

There is a section in Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp that addresses this issue.

My, that sounds like a very handy book!

[batlchip]

You must understand that some people can get use to wearing or being in armor for great lengths at a time.Just look at knights.They could stay in their armor for a long time.The hygien thing is nothing compared to being killed by a M.D.C monster and it wouldn't make sense not to be able to eat food with just your helmet off.So your gonna have'ta come up with some better reasons for me and other mecha jocks to wanna peel out of or armor.Although,the bad form thing is good so is places that don't allow armor.

[Killer Cyborg]

You must understand that some people can get use to wearing or being in armor for great lengths at a time.Just look at knights.They could stay in their armor for a long time.

How long?
How long before cramps and other forms of discomfort impaired their movement and agility?
What'd they smell like?
What sort of fungi and other health problems did they develop as a result?

Seriously, I bet that if you did some research, you'd come up with some compelling reasons for getting out of your armor from time to time.
Just because some people in the middle-ages might have done something doesn't mean that it's the ideal.

So wherever you heard that knights stayed in their armor for "a long time," you might want to check there (and other places) for more specific details.

The hygien thing is nothing compared to being killed by a M.D.C monster and it wouldn't make sense not to be able to eat food with just your helmet off.

I agree.
All I was referring to was removing the helmet.
That's really all you need in order to eat, or to be killed.

Although some eating establishments might have a ban on armor.

[talmor]

While the discomfort/hygiene and social norms can function, I believe, as a "stick" to get the characters out of their armor ("they won't let you into the restaurant" or "you're starting to get an odd itching/burning in your foot..."), I think you need some kind of carrot as well. I think you need to create situations/encounters/etc. where going without the armor is (or can be) the best way to deal with it, until the players get comfortable outside of their armor.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This message has been moved to the Rifts Forum, where the topic is more applicable and appropriate. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

[Dog_O_War]

Okay, I have to ask this, as I'm not quite sure what the OP wants out of this thread.
What is the real issue here?

That you want to catch your players in MD combat without MD armour?
Then why don't you say; "you die". It's less painful for the mind to comprehend that a person would want this to happen.
If you're going into a social situation where there is a personage that is both powerful enough and special enough that MD armour wouldn't be allowed, then why should the players worry?

Is the issue that you want your players to lay down their guards in a world that is deadly and dangerous around every corner? Ask them to roll several insanities then, because they'd have to be crazy to do so.
Realistically people keep on their protection because they feel vunerable and unsafe without it. Anyone would brave a few sleepless nights in a dangerzone as long as it meant they'd see the following day - survival instincts tend to do that for us.

Is the issue that your players are ass-hats that walk down a street with weapons at the ready in full get-up, just to get milk from the cornerstore?
Have several Glitterboys jump out from behind a car then and just off them. Tell them that if they're going to play unrealistic people then they get to play in an unrealistic world.


There has to be incentive to take off armour; a secure night club. A shower in an MD building. A dozen elite guards protecting you and the man you are going to make a diplomatic relationship with. A gated community. Logic.

These help ease players out of their armour; but if you're looking for a reason that would put them in danger, you might as well search for the meaning of life while you're at it. People don't wanna be put into situations that make them vunerable, just so you can have "fun" with them.
That and no amount of stink in-game will convince the player that lives out-of-game to take off their armour. That and people get used to smells, especially their own. So basically you can't stink 'em out.

[glitterboy2098]

the problem is that sometimes you want to throw SDC challenges at them, and want them to be considered a challenge, instead of no problem.

if the players never leave their armor, a gang with 9mm pistols, for example, are no threat. "ho hum, lets wade into them boys" as bullets bounce off their armor.

no challenge, no fun. on the otherhand, if you spring this gang onto them at a time they have to be out of their armor, say at a party or banquet and the gang is crashing it to rob it (think Batman: The Dark knight), that gang with 9mm pistols and SDC knives is suddenly a challenge for the party, one they can't beat by just wading into the bullets and puching out the badguys.

[Dog_O_War]

the problem is that sometimes you want to throw SDC challenges at them, and want them to be considered a challenge, instead of no problem.

if the players never leave their armor, a gang with 9mm pistols, for example, are no threat. "ho hum, lets wade into them boys" as bullets bounce off their armor.

no challenge, no fun. on the otherhand, if you spring this gang onto them at a time they have to be out of their armor, say at a party or banquet and the gang is crashing it to rob it (think Batman: The Dark knight), that gang with 9mm pistols and SDC knives is suddenly a challenge for the party, one they can't beat by just wading into the bullets and puching out the badguys.

How does that work with a Grackletooth?
More importantly, why must a challenge be typed by the damage it deals? Do you not get the same effect by equiping those gangstas with C-18's and vibro-blades?

Either way, the SDC challenges in Rifts only highlight the versimilitude, or rather the lack there of. A group armed with SDC pistols still takes multiple rounds to "put down" and SDC opponent. The difference here though is that if a character took 3 hits amounting to 30 damage, he can basically heal that in one or two days naturally, equating SDC bullets to a bad bruise or pulled muscle. Yay, the game just became unrealistic and pulled me from the versimilitude it may have had.
Personally, I'll keep my armour on and know that if they break it and hit me with an MDC laser that the combat really was deadly.

I know I sound like a negative nancy here, but really - either the GM wants a deadly combat, or he doesn't. What the characters are wearing shouldn't matter in this regard, except where it becomes illogical for a person to wear X.
That X is equal to no armour in a dangerous MDC environment, or armour in a safe SDC environment. If gang-bangers are roaming around with 9mils, I'll keep my MDC armour on and not worry about them, thanks.

[The Beast]

2) Things to eat / drink which can not taken while in armor (throw a feast for the characters).

The pro masks we get issued have a piece that allows us to hook up a canteen to drink out of when in a NBC enviorment. I imagine that advanced body armor would have a bladder inside to do the same. Eating on the other hand.....

More to the point, if you want your players to take off thier armor, then don't put them into situations where they're fighting for thier lives against heavily armed and armored opponents. The first time you do'll probably be the last time they take off thier armor. Otherwise they'll all try to invest in other forms of "armor."

Agreed.

[Aramanthus]

My players are in their armor only during certain circumstances. Battle and hostile environments. They do a lot of role playing. They wheel and deal with various NPCs in my games. Most of the time they are not wearing their armor, although they do carry one weapon with them most of the time. Although they are not always armed.