Telekinetic-Enhanced Weapons

[Talavar]

Well, by the book, there's nothing for this.

A GM might allow you to add the TK weight damage (1d4x10 SDC/100 lbs) if you put that much telekinetic force into the blow. For example, you'd swing with your sword or throw a knife, and then put 500 lbs of TK force into it at the cost of 50 ISP, for an additional 5D4x10 damage. Then again, a GM might not.

[Library Ogre]

When you swing a weapon at an opponent (a sword, club, axe, whatever), using telekinesis to increase the force of your swing to do more damage. How much of a damage bonus would it give? Would this result in the chance of injury like with Telekinetic Punch? It's the weapon that impacts harder so I don't think it would result in injury, unless you wanted to have the chance for a shoulder strain. What about damage to the weapon though? Also, does anybody think this would increase damage for MD melee weapons? I don't think it would because telekinesis doesn't normally do MD for weapons of that weight.

Like you said, modeling it on TK Punch would be a good idea. I'd have it double weapon damage for 6 ISP; TK Punch is more powerful (about sextuple base damage), but it also carries the risk of injury.

When you throw a weapon at an opponent (a knife, bola, axe, etc.), using telekinesis to increase the force behind the flying weapon to do more damage. How much more damage would this do? Would the range also be increased, and, if so, would there be a strike penalty for the greater distance? How about putting some telekinetic force behind a flying arrow? or bullet? Since the bullet can't be seen, I don't think the psychic would be able to focus on it to apply the telekinetic force. Arrows are a bit more iffy.

I'd simply call this TK Acceleration Attack.

[Neorealist]

Yeah, for applying additional force to a hand-held weapon, TK Punch makes the most sense. Both are about adding the telekinesis simultaneously to your own attack movement. The regular and Super Telekinesis powers are about moving an object separately from oneself, so it might require using an extra action to do it in conjuction with a physical weapon strike.

Technically you have your problem right there; Your projectile only takes 1 attack to reach it's target (excepting odd corner cases), so by the time you have the opportunity to 'TK' it it's already found it's mark in (or missed) whatever you fired it at.

I'd personally allow someone to either telekinetically propel an object 'or' fire it the old fashioned way; trying to grab the item with telekinesis and then push it in mid-flight doesn't really work for me. (since by grabbing it you negate most of the force of the projectile, not to mention probably break/alter the projectile in an unfavorable way)

But you say, why not just push it without grabbing hold? Because you can't carefully aim that type of attack, so you then end up wildly altering the trajectory in a fairly random way which would make it nearly impossible to hit anything intentionally. (not to mention i don't think vanilla TK offers just a 'push' option, pretty sure you have to have it telekinetically 'manipulated' first. though there is a TK Push power too...)

[AlanGunhouse]

Well, with an axe, it would indeed be a telekinetic acceleration attack used. Normal telekinesis is too slow to add extra damage, though it can add to the range possibly.

[AlanGunhouse]

possibly a telekinetic punch is actually directly inflicting damage on the target? That might also explain why the punch can not be used through a weapon, you need to touch the target to do the extra damage.

[Neorealist]

I already said this wouldn't work for bullets and restricted the scenario to throwing an axe. If you can apply a telekinetic force to your swing in a punch, then you should be able to apply one to your swing when throwing an axe.

Axes only take one action to hit their mark too. (typically)

For me it's more a matter of "you can't do two things simultaniously", a concept that is inherant in the palladium system. Attacks are (for the most part) arbitrated in a sequential fashion, not simultaniously. So if you are concentrating on throwing the axe? you can't actively manipulate it with TK as well, and vice versa. (since both require your concentration for that particular action, and thus preclude the other)

[Neorealist]

TK Punch is used simultaneously with your punch, all in one action. There should be a way to do the same with a weapon in your hand. And with a weapon in your hand that you let go of at the end of your swing.

Yes, but with TK punch you are using your own fist to do the damage. You get the TK Punch damage for essentially psycho-kinetically manipulating your fist as a blunt object. (hence the chance to pull muscle as you potentially over-extend)

With a ranged weapon? you could likely work out some varient of TK Punch (TK Throw?) that makes you throw it harder or something. The problem comes where you want to start adding damage to the thrown item; Increasing your strength doesn't add to the damage of most ancient-style ranged weapons, just the range.

TK Punch causes your own swing to have more power behind it, which is why there's a chance of hurting yourself. There wouldn't be any such chance if the power inflicted damage directly to the target.

For the above, how do you account for the fact that the range on it is increased by one foot per level? it's obviously some telekinetic force that you are directing with your fist, because the alternative is that the power causes your arms to grow in 'per level' one foot increments?

[Library Ogre]

It's not really clear how TK Punch works. My view is that it increases the speed of your fist, making it cause more damage, which, in turn, increases the likelihood of the punch damaging you. If that is the case, a TK Weapon power operating on similar principles would increase the speed of the weapon; it would whip a sword down faster, or shove a spearpoint forward harder.

[Library Ogre]

Yeah, that's really the only one that makes sense. I think your earlier idea of x2 damage is good. Then for ranged I'm thinking x1.5 damage and x1.5 range, but with your arm being swung faster it would feel awkward and be harder to get the release point correct, so the strike would be done without bonuses.

Depends. I think TK would work well for thrown weapons, adding range and damage without sacrificing accuracy; it could work about like a spear thrower, serving as an extension of the throwing arm; in any case, I don't stat things to "no bonuses"; that penalizes skilled characters more than unskilled characters. I prefer a flat penalty, since it hurts everyone equally.

Pure missile weapons, especially firearms, would be a lot more difficult.

[Neorealist]

...a successful strike delivers a telekinetically enhanced blow." It's not purely a telekinetic force; it's a blow that has increased damage by being telekinetically enhanced. The average adult male can punch about 6ft anyway.

Which is great and all; but still doesn't explain why your level 15th mind melter can use tk punch to bop someone from 15 feet away, just for example.

also; 6 feet? your armspan is equal to your height typically, so the maximum you can reach (one arm fully extended) is a little under half that. (need to account for the torso too). I'm sure your average 12ft tall giant has that kind of range, but us mere mortals don't...

That is really an aside though; the main concern is you seem to want justification to apply tk damage in addition to strength to a ranged attack. I've provided you with plenty of reasons that indicate that you can't without making a house rule. That said? If you want to make a house rule to that effect? Feel free; It's quite alright, you even have my blessing in so doing.

Bottom line though? You just aren't going to find anything within the current rule-set that allows you to do quite what you want it to here, and i don't think i can make that any more clear.

Greater velocity at impact equals greater force, penetration, and damage.

Not in any palladium rule-set it doesn't; at least the damage part of that equation. (well, unless you are playing one of the handful of OCC's that does grant your PS bonus to ranged weapons anyway.)

[Library Ogre]

Depends. I think TK would work well for thrown weapons, adding range and damage without sacrificing accuracy; it could work about like a spear thrower, serving as an extension of the throwing arm; in any case, I don't stat things to "no bonuses"; that penalizes skilled characters more than unskilled characters. I prefer a flat penalty, since it hurts everyone equally.

Pure missile weapons, especially firearms, would be a lot more difficult.

Good point on the flat penalty. I got the idea for erasing all bonuses from a spot in the book where that happens when attempting to go beyond the listed range. But the more I consider it, the more I think there shouldn't be any penalties. After all, TK is a controlled, directed force, not just an arbitrary push.

My general rule of wrist is, when they say "without any bonuses", they mean "with a -3 penalty". That wipes out most bonuses, except from truly exceptional character (either high level or really high PP, or mid-level with a bit more PP".

[Neorealist]

All of the issues you have brought up are discredited by the text in the book. Nothing so far says this idea isn't possible by following the book rules.

This is amusing, because here i 'was' actually quoting various rules from the book, and you were the one trying to say that it should work the way you'd like it to regardless.


To sum:
Rule 1:
You cannot perform 2 different actions simultaniously unless it's specifically listed that you can do so. (like in TK punch, but not in Telekinesis)
Rule 2:
The rules are quite clear on what you can and cannot add (bonus-wise) to a ranged weapons attack. Specifically unless an OCC says differently? you can't add any PS bonuses to a thrown weapon regardless of how much it makes sense to, or you want it to.
Rule 3:
There are no rules for creating new psionic powers. ergo, you are going to need to house rule into existence an entirely new power to accomplish what you'd like.

TK Punch adds in the PS damage bonus from the user. That could only happen if physical contact is made. As far as punching distance, you don't stand stiff as a board when you punch.

Or it could be that being stronger means you think your TK Punch does more damage, and so whatever it is you are 'TK-Punch'ing is hit harder. (mind over matter and all that) Or, (and this is my guess); the power is worded less clearly than it apparently should be. You still haven't explained why TK Punch allows you to punch someone from 15 ft away yet; if it's purely your arm which is doing the damage? your arm should really have been torn from it's socket trying that stunt, i don't care how flexible you are.

[Neorealist]

The conversation has been focusing on TK Punch for awhile, you can add bonuses to thrown weapons according to the Damage description near the back of RUE, and the topic has been about using existing TK powers from the start.

I'm glad you are familiar with the RUE source book, so you'll definately know where this came from. (hint, it's in the description of W.P. Targeting, page 328)
"No P.S. Damage Bonus: The damage bonus for Strength does NOT apply to arrows fired from a bow or from a thrown weapon unless the O.C.C. description specifically says that it does. There are a few very special O.C.C.s that get the damage bonus for arrows and thrown weapons, but normally the damage honus is only for melee combat."

Nowhere in the Palladium system does the P.S. stat allow you to think harder. Maybe the Range is supposed to mean the TK force propels you forward in a lunge? Or, more likely, it's a copy/paste editing error from TK Push; Palladium is notorious for those. Regardless of what it means, the full paragraph description of the power trumps the one ambiguous Range line.

I'm also curious what part of TK Punch you think trumps it's own range listing? Not to mention if you were planning on using it without house rules, what part of TK Punch includes it's effects on a ranged weapon at all?

Also if you want a "propels you forward in a lunge" tk power, than you'll want to have a peek at Telekinetic Leap, not 'TK Punch'.

Finally I'd also like to quote directly from TK Punch itself: "This telekinetic power enables the psychic to deliver a powerful punch or kick-like force through telekinetic energy." Note that it says Punch or Kick-like Force, rather than (like you are suggesting) some alternate pain delivery system (ie: just a punch or kick). This also explains why it can reach 15 feet too, since it's a 'force' that is doing the damage. Perhaps adding your PS bonus to it was a copy/paste mistake? who knows...

[Neorealist]

And on pages 344-5, it says "The following are some of the typical damage amounts inflicted by common types of physical combat attacks. Remember to add any applicable damage bonus for P.S. attributes 16 and higher." and then goes on to list various types of strikes, including throwing objects. So we have two contradictory rules in the same book. In that case, we have to consult an outside rule, like physics. Physics says a stronger force would do more damage.

There isn't any contradiction there; your quote/the book itself states quite clearly to add any 'applicable damage bonus'. Regretably damage bonuses from strength don't actually apply to ranged weapons (as per the my previously quoted text) unless the specific OCC ability you've chosen for your character says they do.

And TK Punch working on weapons is why I started this thread... ...That's the point of this topic.

Right. and you've wandered directly into house-rule territory there. I'm curious why you refuse to acknowledge that fact, it's not like it's a bad thing.

The description of TK Punch says the power delivers a "telekinetically enhanced blow"; that would be a blow enhanced by telekinesis, not some disembodied blow entirely composed of telekinesis. The description also says that you add on your P.S. damage bonus, and that TK Punch can result in physical injury to the user due to "the extra strain on the body." All of that would require physical contact.

I contend that it doesn't require any such contact, after all, the chance to strain yourself is there even if you miss or if you are not aiming at anything in particular to begin with. (shadow-boxing perhaps, or showing off your power)

In any case, the reason you can add your PS bonus to it is because the psionic ability explicitly states you can, not because of some general rule about adding PS bonuses to ranged (or for that matter, telekinetic) actions. Thus even if you were capable of throwing something while concentrating on the activation of 'TK Punch' (you aren't, but i've already clarified why at least twice, i'll not do so again) your ranged weapon wouldn't do any further damage because again according to the rules as they currently exist? you cannot add your PS bonus to a thrown weapon.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I figure I'll try to throw in some comments here. For Apollo, PS bonus does not apply to ranged. In addition to the Weapon Proficiency note, we can look at the page 284 of R:UE. "P.S. damage bonuses are always added to the physical damage done by melee weapons such as clubs, knives, swords, and spears, but do not apply to arrows and guns." Or the fact the bonus is added to "Hand to Hand" and not to ranged (Archery for that matter doesn't even use the attacks from hand to hand). Now, looking at the list on page 345, if we add P.S. damage bonus to all the types of damage listed then ... a stronger character who falls is MORE likely to die than a weaker. Yup! Fall damage is listed. So now it's 1D6+P.S. damage per 10 feet of a fall. Yikes! Driving in a car and get into a collision? Bam! Add in P.S. damage. Drop (because it's Throwing/Drop) something on your foot? Add in your P.S. damage. That would get really silly (in my opinion). I'm not saying someone can't do it, it's their game and their right to run as they see fit. I'm just stating that if it's taken that literally there is a lot of trouble to be had.

Now, onto Telekinetic Punch ... well, I'll have to agree with Apollo there are physical elements. It states a physical attack is needed, and it does add in the P.S. damage. Now, it doesn't actually state you can use a weapon. Maybe you can, but I'm inclined to think not as it specifically mentions punches and kicks, but only those. Otherwise it would say something like "Adds 2D6 damage to the attack" (for example), at least in my opinion. Why would it not be able to be added? Well, I'd think it's something like enhancing your aura in many ways. We all have one (by the book, so let's not get real life spiritual here). By hardening this aura it's like hitting with brass knuckles, for example. However, by the same token, this normal soft and flowing aura is now hardened. Think about being in a box that is getting shaken around. If you're not careful you're going to hit the walls, bump your head, etc. At least, that's one possibility. Now, maybe not. Maybe it is something like telekinetically manipulating your own muscles. Sounds tricky, but that last line about the extra strain on the body does sure make it more difficult to figure out. Hmm ... okay, here's another example. Imagine holding a series of needles in between all of your fingers. When you punch, these needles are going to be digging into the opponent and doing some extra damage. However, if you're not careful, when your fist makes contact it will be pushing the needles back into your palm as well. Not sure if that makes perfect sense, but I'm trying to give visuals to help with some explanations. They may not be perfect, but hopefully get the job done.

Now, if you wanted to add that to a weapon ... well, possible. The book doesn't really say you can't. It may have very well been overlooked, and with Palladium I believe it is quite possible. So now you can move these needles onto the edge of your sword for a type of serrated blade. I probably wouldn't allow it in my game for the primary reason I'm too lazy to make the new rules it would require (I admit I'm lazy), but if someone else made the ruling for their game I wouldn't even think twice (it makes sense). So! Let's look at this a bit more now. It has a range! One foot per level. Hmm ... so, if we include it in range, then the weapon can only be 1 foot long at first level, 2 feet long at second, 3 at third, etc. So at first you can use knives, by third you can include most swords, you'll need level 6 or so for staves, etc. But wait ... what kind of weapon is going to be 15 feet long? Okay, looking at PF book I can say the Lance is 13 ft and Pike is 16 ft, but that's the rarity to say the least. I'd say you can fire that bow for a range of 15 feet with the TK Punch bonus. However, after that any TK Punch boost would be lost. Granted, that's probably not the type of boost and range most would want, but 15 feet can have some (thought limited) use. And, since it's a bonus (not a necessary part of the weapon), I'd be happy with what I can get.

Personal feelings: Well, I wouldn't much let it be used with ranged weapons. With thrown weapons it's the momentum going to be doing the damage. If you grab it with some kind of TK (even Punch) then it's the TK doing the damage (overriding the physical momentum), so it replaces the normal damage. Telekinetic Acceleration Attack seems the best for ranged. I know not what Apollo was looking for, but still seems the most fitting. As an individual I'd say the character has to choose between physical force or telekinetic force. Imagine throwing something. Now I catch it mid-air and start running with it to hit someone. At no point did the weapons stop, but is your momentum going to add to my own (or vice versa)? One of us may do great damage individually, but not going to really add together. At least that's the way I see it. By no means does anyone have to agree with me, but figured since I already posted the above two paragraphs (which addressed book references) I would add in the rest. I have no problem with people using house rules (I use them all the time), but I figured to at least try to address some of the book issues. Hopes some of this helped. Take care all and have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.