Comparison

[Dave the dragon]

Well, even the FLGS says the New Shadows book is so/so, but does contain some new stuff. Will the others? My FLGS owner says not; it wont be worth buying, since I have the old ones. Any authors or PB workers that wanna answer?

[Jefffar]

So the FLGS guy is trying to talk himself out of sales - bright.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Well, even the FLGS says the New Shadows book is so/so, but does contain some new stuff. Will the others? My FLGS owner says not; it wont be worth buying, since I have the old ones. Any authors or PB workers that wanna answer?

Sense you said New Shadows I will guess you mean the RT:Shadows Chronicles book. While the Invid is mostly a reprinted from RT:II and RT:S there is one addition to their mecha. The hydonites' section is fully new. The OCC's are new or refurbished, they include MOS's. The Starships in the Hard Cover book are the post hadonite betrayal refits, and are different to the RT:II&RT:S listings.
The mecha section lists all the different types of Alphas and Cyclones and their production dates. There are many New Mecha listed also, such as the Conbat fighters, and silverback ground mecha.
The char creation process is slightly different, in that you have some more optional stuff.
In the equipment section you get some re-listings of old favorites and some new guns, and vehicles in the Hard Cover.

There is a starships book planed, covering all the time periods.

As for anything after the the haydonite betrayal, nothing has been mentioned in these forums so far that I've seen.

Now, if you meant the new Macross book, there has already been some official statements that there will be new stuff. Along with some rumor mongering of a PB staffer about those new stuff.

[Defender_X]

So the FLGS guy is trying to talk himself out of sales - bright.

I love people who do that. My folks recently moved to SW Tennessee, and my dad has actually had people refuse him service because he's a Yankee...

When the hell did Michiganders become F'n Yankees?!?!

I'm in SE Tennessee and I haven't heard of that happening, but then I live in Chattanooga and we are a bit more diverse in population and attitudes(sometimes) than the more rural areas. On average, if you're from above the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi, you are considered a Yankee. In Louisana, at least around where I lived as a kid, the line was quite a bit lower, me and my brothers, southerners, got called Yankees down there. Weird yes.

[Braden Campbell]

Well, even the FLGS says the New Shadows book is so/so, but does contain some new stuff... it wont be worth buying, since I have the old ones...

Wow... what a salesman.

[thorr-kan]

Of course the Uppers like to think of themselves as an independent state.

That's because we are, Troll.

:-P

(Troll=Lives Below The Bridge, for those of you not blessed to be Yoopers.)

[Dave the dragon]

He's a fan who runs a bookstore. And like most in the area, that whole change of attitude PB had from 2004-2007 alienated him. He'd rather sell a book you'll like than sell a book for profit, which is why his bookstore has been around for 30 years. Unfortunately, save for a very small group, no one here buys PB, and its for the same reasons we've complained of since the 90s, when Rifts first came out.
So he repeats back from that small group their opinions. And the consensus has been: If you've never played Robotech before, and you like PB, you'll love it. If you play D20, you probably wont like it; too complicated. And if you still have to original books, dont waste your money, you've got it all already.

[NMI]

He's a fan who runs a bookstore. And like most in the area, that whole change of attitude PB had from 2004-2007 alienated him. He'd rather sell a book you'll like than sell a book for profit, which is why his bookstore has been around for 30 years. Unfortunately, save for a very small group, no one here buys PB, and its for the same reasons we've complained of since the 90s, when Rifts first came out.
So he repeats back from that small group their opinions. And the consensus has been: If you've never played Robotech before, and you like PB, you'll love it. If you play D20, you probably wont like it; too complicated. And if you still have to original books, dont waste your money, you've got it all already.

Dave, I would be interested in hearing more on this. What exactly does this store owner mean by "change of attitude?. What were the reasons (in general) that were complained about in the `90s? If you dont want to answer this publicly, feel free to PM me or email me at deific.nmi@gmail.com

[Library Ogre]

Re: Talking yourself out of a sale.

There are two levels of this, in my mind. The first is someone comes in, gets a book, and brings it up to buy. If you start talking about it being a horrible book at that point, you're a moron who is trying to lose money... you paid to put it on your shelves, and now you're not willing to let someone who wants to buy it spend money? You are a moron who deserves to go out of business.

The second is someone coming into, picking a book, and saying "What do you think of this book?" At that point, I think you're obliged to be honest about it, and about your prejudices. "I didn't like it, but I don't like class and level systems." "I didn't like it, and that's because WotC is teh debil." "I didn't like it because they did X,Y, and Z." If someone is asking your opinion as a store owner or employee, I think it behooves you more to be honest than to be a salesman, especially in a small industry like gaming.

[Novastar]

It's like he's saying, "Don't buy 4th Edition, 3.X is still a complete game."

While the statement is true, it's not the point. You were interested in a new edition to the game (yes, I think R:TSC is a new edition for Robotech), and he told you not to buy product he's obviously willing to shelve.

This strikes some of us as odd, and not good business management.

[Dave the dragon]

The second is someone coming into, picking a book, and saying "What do you think of this book?" At that point, I think you're obliged to be honest about it, and about your prejudices. "I didn't like it, but I don't like class and level systems." "I didn't like it, and that's because WotC is teh debil." "I didn't like it because they did X,Y, and Z." If someone is asking your opinion as a store owner or employee, I think it behooves you more to be honest than to be a salesman, especially in a small industry like gaming.

This is what happened. I asked the opiniopn of the book, and he said that it was mediocre at best, as reviewed by the few PB players left in the area. The consensus from them (the players) was to save money and keep using the old stuff.

As for the complaints, Id rather not. Been threatened toooooo many times with banning for "daring to bring it up again." There are reasons I only come about once a year, and dont miss it the rest. As a fellow soldier, I wish Kev the best, but the company itself is one that led me to sell or give away all the books I had, except the Main Book thats too ripped up to use for anything 'cept starting fires. I was a fanboy right up til the umpteenth time I was told as a consumer, "my opinion didnt matter. If I didnt like it, leave."
So, with a bow, I'll take my leave again, and see you all next year, to see if a miracle has happened; I wont be holding my breath.

[NMI]

The second is someone coming into, picking a book, and saying "What do you think of this book?" At that point, I think you're obliged to be honest about it, and about your prejudices. "I didn't like it, but I don't like class and level systems." "I didn't like it, and that's because WotC is teh debil." "I didn't like it because they did X,Y, and Z." If someone is asking your opinion as a store owner or employee, I think it behooves you more to be honest than to be a salesman, especially in a small industry like gaming.

This is what happened. I asked the opiniopn of the book, and he said that it was mediocre at best, as reviewed by the few PB players left in the area. The consensus from them (the players) was to save money and keep using the old stuff.

As for the complaints, Id rather not. Been threatened toooooo many times with banning for "daring to bring it up again." There are reasons I only come about once a year, and dont miss it the rest. As a fellow soldier, I wish Kev the best, but the company itself is one that led me to sell or give away all the books I had, except the Main Book thats too ripped up to use for anything 'cept starting fires. I was a fanboy right up til the umpteenth time I was told as a consumer, "my opinion didnt matter. If I didnt like it, leave."
So, with a bow, I'll take my leave again, and see you all next year, to see if a miracle has happened; I wont be holding my breath.

Actually, I was interested more in how this store owner " And like most in the area, that whole change of attitude PB had from 2004-2007 alienated him." was alienated.

[Dave the dragon]

From a businessman's point of view:
The consistent inability to make publishing dates.
The "cut & paste" editing that led to redundancies, so customers wouldn't buy the book, as they already had the info.
The poor editing, so that even "cut & Paste" kept the same typos that the original had.
The lack of support for lines, instead bringing out "new" games.
The "universal" system that needs so much work to tie in to existing lines.
Power creep, when complained about, continued, making old books worth less, and harder to sell.
Then there was the "its our game. If you dont like it, dont buy", which makes it harder to sell.
Books came out with what PB wanted in them, rather than what fans asked for; again, harder to sell.
The comparison to other systems, where details were provided so that campaigns would be similar: 3 Rifts games were running at the same time, and none were similar in details, boundaries, or political struggles.

Then there's the fan complaints: (I stopped reading when Arzno came out, so some of this may have been fixed)
Contradictory rules. (dont know if they ever got sorted out, but as of RUE, they hadnt)
Magic being, as was proven in the SoT arc, almost completely worthless.
The MDC rules make most every form of tactics useless, and make scrounging funds to replace equipment nearly impossible.
The fact that Dragons, rather than being powerful beings, are a sucker bet, easy to fight and kill.
Swarm tactics are more useful than any plans, provided you have the numbers. (most PC parties dont)
The large list of skills, most of which never get used.
The fact that most "demons" are so powerful, the only way to fight them is by fleeing.
When we asked for a simplified combined rules system, We got the GMG, which didnt simplify or combine. Then we got RUE, which was just as bad.
We're still waiting for info on the East Coast and much of America, with nation boundaries and lines of who is where, and have been since Rifts first came out.
The only Nightbane book to come out in 6 years got canceled due to lack of sales. Well, most of us had assumed it went the way of "System Failure" and "Ninjas & Super Spies", left for dead.
By my count, there are 2 OCCs for woodcutter/Lumberjack; my buddy says there are 3. Did we really need an OCC for this? Wouldn't Vagabond have worked just as easily, and left more room for other stuff?
Likewise, do I need the stats for the entire ruling body of the Coalition Govt? My PCs should never see Prosec, except on vid monitors. So why do I need combat stats? More room for other stuff that was wasted.
Much of the newer books were either limp and uninspiring, or not relevant, as my guys were no where near Asia, much less China.

And through it all, when we complained, we were told to stop being rude; to shut up; "Its PB's game, they'll do what they want" rather than what was requested. They'd rather put out new books that work on correcting them. They didnt want to join the computer age, and a fellow could get banned for questioning that decision. It could be a lawsuit for volunteering work on a computer program to help make character generation easier. Asking for electronic copy has been an unforgivable sin, only slightly less evil than actually doing it yourself, to lighten the loads carried from game to game.
"If you dont like it, dont buy/leave". Thats a wierd sentiment from a nich market company, and not conductive to building fan base or customer relations. And it makes it MUCH harder for a small bookstore to sell product, when the supplier says as much. Oddly, Marryann (or however you spell it) was the only one not saying this. As I sent to Kevin, saying it was bad when his ex-wife was the nicest voice for Palladium on the forums. I got the standard "I'll look into it, but I dont see that" that I expected. It may not have been a form letter, telling me to "shut it and leave if I dont like it", but that's what it seemed like at the time. Of course, I had already been gone for a year, and had only been back a few weeks. But it was still the same attitude of arrogance that made me leave in 2005.
I had spent $50 (or was it 70) on the brand new (at the time) RUE when it came out, and found the book sorely failed to meet expectations or hype. Then, to add insult to injury, the extra money got me 2 extra pages, and that was only an ad for the PoP game, that was already an abject failure, due to the system being a failure. Those of us that had the audacity to complain were told, politely, the equivalent of "shut up. Be glad you got it." Needless to say, I didnt feel appreciated by a company that had always prided itself on being "Fans First".
Several had already been banned for daring argue with the company over rules, and wanting official clarifications, or not liking the official clarifications. Others were banned for complaining about the ads. We felt we were paying for content, not advertising; apparently, we were wrong. Complaints about books promised since the early 90s (Lemuria, Lazlo, The East Coast) were met with threats of banning.
Most every request, from book ideas, to info on the movie, to possibility of PoP being ported, to everything else about the company was met with rudeness and counter-attacks. Right up til "The Great Betrayal" where, rather than offer product, the company begged donations from the very fans that had repeatedly been told "My way or the Highway" for so many years. Or, my personal favorite, "you dont know enough about the biz to be able to criticize". Well, many of us have owned our own businesses, and realized that this attitude was/is counter productive to good customer relations. Too many that did have experience in writing, publishing, customer relations, or business ownership (among some of the fields represented) or those who had been gamers for decades, and had seen first-hand these attitudes and business models run companies into the ground before, said so, and were told to be silent or be banned.
Like many of the former fans and the Store owner im my area, we are waiting for that ray of brilliance that will prove us wrong, and return PB to the level of glory it used to deserve. We hope it will happen, for the company, and the industry as a whole. We've waited 4 years patiently, and continue to wait. But this company acts too much like TSR used to, and TSR deserved the crash it brought on itself. I hate to see that happen to PB, out of respect for Kevin's background, sentimentality, and the impact on the industry. But, as Marryann's sig says (roughly) "you called down the thunder, now you got it."

[Braden Campbell]

I just wanted to say to everyone out there - THIS is how you complain.

Note, all of you, that not once does Dave come off as a sanctimonious jerk. His arguments are sound, and collected.

I don't agree with all that you said, Dave, but I have to applaud you for the adult way in which you said it.

[NMI]

Dave, I like how you complained. I think in the future when someone "complains" poorly, I will refer them back to your post here and tell them "That is how you do it".

I disagree with alot of what you said, but not how you said it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Along with some rumor mongering of a PB staffer about those new stuff.

Why, you're not talking about me are you? When I'm talking about books in here I'm not rumor mongering, I'm preaching gospel.

[Jockitch74]

From a businessman's point of view:
The consistent inability to make publishing dates.
The "cut & paste" editing that led to redundancies, so customers wouldn't buy the book, as they already had the info.
The poor editing, so that even "cut & Paste" kept the same typos that the original had.
The lack of support for lines, instead bringing out "new" games.
The "universal" system that needs so much work to tie in to existing lines.
Power creep, when complained about, continued, making old books worth less, and harder to sell.
Then there was the "its our game. If you dont like it, dont buy", which makes it harder to sell.
Books came out with what PB wanted in them, rather than what fans asked for; again, harder to sell.
The comparison to other systems, where details were provided so that campaigns would be similar: 3 Rifts games were running at the same time, and none were similar in details, boundaries, or political struggles.

Then there's the fan complaints: (I stopped reading when Arzno came out, so some of this may have been fixed)
Contradictory rules. (dont know if they ever got sorted out, but as of RUE, they hadnt)
Magic being, as was proven in the SoT arc, almost completely worthless.
The MDC rules make most every form of tactics useless, and make scrounging funds to replace equipment nearly impossible.
The fact that Dragons, rather than being powerful beings, are a sucker bet, easy to fight and kill.
Swarm tactics are more useful than any plans, provided you have the numbers. (most PC parties dont)
The large list of skills, most of which never get used.
The fact that most "demons" are so powerful, the only way to fight them is by fleeing.
When we asked for a simplified combined rules system, We got the GMG, which didnt simplify or combine. Then we got RUE, which was just as bad.
We're still waiting for info on the East Coast and much of America, with nation boundaries and lines of who is where, and have been since Rifts first came out.
The only Nightbane book to come out in 6 years got canceled due to lack of sales. Well, most of us had assumed it went the way of "System Failure" and "Ninjas & Super Spies", left for dead.
By my count, there are 2 OCCs for woodcutter/Lumberjack; my buddy says there are 3. Did we really need an OCC for this? Wouldn't Vagabond have worked just as easily, and left more room for other stuff?
Likewise, do I need the stats for the entire ruling body of the Coalition Govt? My PCs should never see Prosec, except on vid monitors. So why do I need combat stats? More room for other stuff that was wasted.
Much of the newer books were either limp and uninspiring, or not relevant, as my guys were no where near Asia, much less China.

And through it all, when we complained, we were told to stop being rude; to shut up; "Its PB's game, they'll do what they want" rather than what was requested. They'd rather put out new books that work on correcting them. They didnt want to join the computer age, and a fellow could get banned for questioning that decision. It could be a lawsuit for volunteering work on a computer program to help make character generation easier. Asking for electronic copy has been an unforgivable sin, only slightly less evil than actually doing it yourself, to lighten the loads carried from game to game.
"If you dont like it, dont buy/leave". Thats a wierd sentiment from a nich market company, and not conductive to building fan base or customer relations. And it makes it MUCH harder for a small bookstore to sell product, when the supplier says as much. Oddly, Marryann (or however you spell it) was the only one not saying this. As I sent to Kevin, saying it was bad when his ex-wife was the nicest voice for Palladium on the forums. I got the standard "I'll look into it, but I dont see that" that I expected. It may not have been a form letter, telling me to "shut it and leave if I dont like it", but that's what it seemed like at the time. Of course, I had already been gone for a year, and had only been back a few weeks. But it was still the same attitude of arrogance that made me leave in 2005.
I had spent $50 (or was it 70) on the brand new (at the time) RUE when it came out, and found the book sorely failed to meet expectations or hype. Then, to add insult to injury, the extra money got me 2 extra pages, and that was only an ad for the PoP game, that was already an abject failure, due to the system being a failure. Those of us that had the audacity to complain were told, politely, the equivalent of "shut up. Be glad you got it." Needless to say, I didnt feel appreciated by a company that had always prided itself on being "Fans First".
Several had already been banned for daring argue with the company over rules, and wanting official clarifications, or not liking the official clarifications. Others were banned for complaining about the ads. We felt we were paying for content, not advertising; apparently, we were wrong. Complaints about books promised since the early 90s (Lemuria, Lazlo, The East Coast) were met with threats of banning.
Most every request, from book ideas, to info on the movie, to possibility of PoP being ported, to everything else about the company was met with rudeness and counter-attacks. Right up til "The Great Betrayal" where, rather than offer product, the company begged donations from the very fans that had repeatedly been told "My way or the Highway" for so many years. Or, my personal favorite, "you dont know enough about the biz to be able to criticize". Well, many of us have owned our own businesses, and realized that this attitude was/is counter productive to good customer relations. Too many that did have experience in writing, publishing, customer relations, or business ownership (among some of the fields represented) or those who had been gamers for decades, and had seen first-hand these attitudes and business models run companies into the ground before, said so, and were told to be silent or be banned.
Like many of the former fans and the Store owner im my area, we are waiting for that ray of brilliance that will prove us wrong, and return PB to the level of glory it used to deserve. We hope it will happen, for the company, and the industry as a whole. We've waited 4 years patiently, and continue to wait. But this company acts too much like TSR used to, and TSR deserved the crash it brought on itself. I hate to see that happen to PB, out of respect for Kevin's background, sentimentality, and the impact on the industry. But, as Marryann's sig says (roughly) "you called down the thunder, now you got it."

*Stands and applauds* Couldn't have said it better myself.

[MikeM]

Well, even the FLGS says the New Shadows book is so/so, but does contain some new stuff. Will the others? My FLGS owner says not; it wont be worth buying, since I have the old ones. Any authors or PB workers that wanna answer?

I think the Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles Roleplaying Game (Deluxe edition) is one of the best books Palladium has ever made.
The normal size is great too, but there are a few things I would have done differently. Mostly to do with the artwork. But I still think it's fantastic.

Also, if an employee at a comic shop talks you out of a sale, he's an idiot and his opinion isn't worth much.

MikeM

[Misfit KotLD]

So the FLGS guy is trying to talk himself out of sales - bright.

I love people who do that. My folks recently moved to SW Tennessee, and my dad has actually had people refuse him service because he's a Yankee...

When the hell did Michiganders become F'n Yankees?!?!

They're from north of the Mason-Dixon line. Ergo, they're Yankees.

[Dave the dragon]

Also, if an employee at a comic shop talks you out of a sale, he's an idiot and his opinion isn't worth much.
MikeM

Yeah, well he has owned the store since before I was born, selling gaming materials. So I think he has some credibility. On top of that, he didnt say it was "bad". He said it was mediocre, and that "If I had all the old books, there was no point buying the new ones." So please impress on me your qualifications that make you a better source of advice than him. And remember, he needs repeat business for his livelihood as a nich store. PB, not quite as important.

[Chris]

Also, if an employee at a comic shop talks you out of a sale, he's an idiot and his opinion isn't worth much.
MikeM

Yeah, well he has owned the store since before I was born, selling gaming materials. So I think he has some credibility. On top of that, he didnt say it was "bad". He said it was mediocre, and that "If I had all the old books, there was no point buying the new ones." So please impress on me your qualifications that make you a better source of advice than him. And remember, he needs repeat business for his livelihood as a nich store. PB, not quite as important.

I'm with Dave on this one, if the store owner is willing to forgo a sale in order to be honest, then he has my business. A store owner that does that, tells me he values me, and will look out for me, and not just try to pad his bottom line.

[MikeM]

Also, if an employee at a comic shop talks you out of a sale, he's an idiot and his opinion isn't worth much.
MikeM

Yeah, well he has owned the store since before I was born, selling gaming materials. So I think he has some credibility. On top of that, he didnt say it was "bad". He said it was mediocre, and that "If I had all the old books, there was no point buying the new ones." So please impress on me your qualifications that make you a better source of advice than him. And remember, he needs repeat business for his livelihood as a nich store. PB, not quite as important.

I have no idea what happened, but for some reason when I typed my response, I must have accidentally scrolled through a page of responses because I didnt see half of this thread. Namely where it was explained what happened. I had it in my head that it played out differently for some reason. So I do apologize for that. He gave his opinion when you asked for it, so that is different than what I thought happened.

I do disagree with him in thinking the new roleplaying game is mediocre though and that if you have the old books the new one is a waste, as I think its a better book than most of the stuff I have picked up in the last year. I pick up A LOT of different roleplaying games and Robotech is the only Palladium book I have purchased in a long time so I am not just a ranting Palladium fanboy. However if Palladium continues to release more books like Robotech, I will continue to purchase more books from them.

However I am a HUGE fan of Robotech as I pick up everything Robotech related that I can find so I may be biased.

I apologize if I offended you, as that was not my intention. Im sure the local gaming shop owner does good business and is an upstanding guy, I just think the new Robotech RPG is an excellent book and system, and shouldnt be judged poorly because someone just doesn't like Palladium.

Thanks,

MikeM

[Dave the dragon]

No problem.
So this thing looks better than promised?
I wish they'd offer a "sampler" like DrivethruRPG does, so I can see if its good. I hate to read the books at the store. Seems disrespectful to read and not buy from my FLGS.

[Cybermancer]

Perhaps you could ask your FLGS if he minded you reviewing it for yourself so you could decide to buy it or not.

Right now, you're still a potential customer for him for that product. You don't want to risk your money for a product he's already been told by other fans is medicore. He has nothing to lose by letting you leaf through it for an extended period but he does have something to gain. The sale of the book, for starters but also, potentially, a positive review to contrast the medicore one he's already recieved. Even a reinforcement of the current review is a gain from his standpoint.

Nor do you have anything to lose by asking him. Well, except some time invested to determine if a potential purchase is worth your money.

As far as my own two cents worth, I felt that the deluxe edition was well worth the money and I am very pleased to have it. It does have worthwhile new material and there are some things about the streamlined new system I really like. There are a few things I don't like as well. I like the new way you can determine attributes. A player should definitely be happy with any character they roll if they're allowed to pick their stat type and everything else (random rolls are too arbitrary for me, I prefer to give players as much choice as possible so they're happy with their characters). I'm not a fan of the huge laundry list of skills (many are pretty useless or redundant) or the lack of customization at the minute level. I would have preferred fewer OCC and MOS skills with more OCC related and secondary skills.

The deluxe book itself is also put together nicely and I think it'll last a very long time. Some of the art isn't as crisp as I would have liked but I think this may be because of it being resized from the manga format.

If you're going to buy this book and only want one copy, buy the deluxe edition. If I had it to do over again, I would never have bought the manga sized and won't be buying future manga sized books. At least not until I have full sized versions.

So overall, there are things that frustrated me (and from what I've read, will frustrate you) but I still am quite pleased with the product overall. You might be as well.

[MikeM]

No problem.
So this thing looks better than promised?
I wish they'd offer a "sampler" like DrivethruRPG does, so I can see if its good. I hate to read the books at the store. Seems disrespectful to read and not buy from my FLGS.

I should specify that when I say I like the book I am refering to the Deluxe version. Although I do like the manga size one, the hardcover is the book that I think is nicely put together. If you do buy a copy, I would recommend the Hardcover. For 30 dollars its not a bad price point for a hardcover game. Although I admit if it was in colour I would have been happy to pay more.

This brings up a question I have always wanted to ask and I might make a new thread about it.

MikeM

[Dave the dragon]

I do hate to seem so negative; I once was the happiest of fanboys. But I received a pm today that was, to me, a kick in the shorts. NMI decided, after reading my complaint that PB tends to create too many new lines without supporting the existing ones, to invite me to the new game forum for Kevin's new zombie game. I dont know if this was a flood mailing, or if it was actually "private". But it does seem to be rubbing my nose in one of my voiced complaints.
Or am I just being too sensitive?

[Shawn Merrow]

I dont know if this was a flood mailing, or if it was actually "private". But it does seem to be rubbing my nose in one of my voiced complaints.
Or am I just being too sensitive?

It was sent to every member to advertise the new section of the board and yes I think you're being to sensitive.

[MikeM]

I do hate to seem so negative; I once was the happiest of fanboys. But I received a pm today that was, to me, a kick in the shorts. NMI decided, after reading my complaint that PB tends to create too many new lines without supporting the existing ones, to invite me to the new game forum for Kevin's new zombie game. I dont know if this was a flood mailing, or if it was actually "private". But it does seem to be rubbing my nose in one of my voiced complaints.
Or am I just being too sensitive?

Hi Dave, I can see how it would seem that way, but it was a mass message to all registered users from what I can tell. Although I would have preferred to see a new Beyond the Supernatural or Nightspawn (I refuse to call it Nightbane) book instead of Dead Reign, Im sure it will be a good book and I hope to mine it for ideas for the other two games.

MikeM

[NMI]

I do hate to seem so negative; I once was the happiest of fanboys. But I received a pm today that was, to me, a kick in the shorts. NMI decided, after reading my complaint that PB tends to create too many new lines without supporting the existing ones, to invite me to the new game forum for Kevin's new zombie game. I dont know if this was a flood mailing, or if it was actually "private". But it does seem to be rubbing my nose in one of my voiced complaints.
Or am I just being too sensitive?

No it was not sent to specifically just you. I like ya, but not that much! Just kidding Dave.
It was a mass PM sent to all of the fans that have accounts here on the Forums of the Megaverse. You know, the forums that Palladium Books owns!
It was not an attack on you, your opinions, your beliefs or anything of the sort.

[Sureshot]

*Stands and applauds* Couldn't have said it better myself.

Agreed and seconded. I find it funny that some consider DTD post the right way to post about criticisms about PB product. Myself and others have done the same in the past. We have followed the rules and been polite about it. Its not like DTD was the first one ever to do it right. I just find the irony amusing.

At least DTD LGS owner is honest. The store I go to it recently came to light that the person in charge of gaming does not feel the need to actually read the product he is selling. I noticed it when he started saying a whole bunch of wrong things about D&D 4E. When asked if he had read the 4E books he responded by telling me no he had not read the books does not plan too and is his knowledge is all second hand.

I am not saying you have to like the rpgs you sell though imo I think it helps at least to know the product. Not only that it comes off bad imo. It is one thing like myself or some other customer talking bad about the product. It is quite another if your selling the product. I am just glad the rpgs he recommended me I actually like or I would have been very unhappy and not shopped there anymore. In the end I am not the one it is going to hurt it will be his profits.

[Kagashi]

So the FLGS guy is trying to talk himself out of sales - bright.

I love people who do that. My folks recently moved to SW Tennessee, and my dad has actually had people refuse him service because he's a Yankee...

When the hell did Michiganders become F'n Yankees?!?!

1861

[Kagashi]

Ive seen this problem across America in comic book and hobby shops across the nation.

Its funny, cause you walk in and see White Wolf, WotC, and Steve Jackson games pretty much everywhere from the independently owned comic shops to the big chain stores like Hastings, Barnes and Nobles, Books-a-million, and Borders...yet any Palladium product is void on the shelves. When you inquire about it, you get the answer "We can order it for you." Usually accompanies with "Man, we always have people asking about that".

What Palladium needs to ask themselves is, Why, if people are asking for it, are most retail stores not putting PB books on the shelves?

It cant be because folks complain. I hear lots of complaints about D&D, yet that's the only one which seems to be EVERYWHERE. What is the real factor on why PB books are not on the shelves?

Its not big city vs small city either. The last time Ive seen Palladium Books sold regularly on the shelf was in Denver Colorado in 2002. Since then, ive lived in Omaha Nebraska where only ONE shop on the other side of town carried Palladium books, and even at that, had no idea tSC was even out let alone had it on the shelf. The other shop I frequented only had a handful of used books, although i did pick up my copy of Nightspawn from there. I think I was the only person to buy a PB book from that guy in 4 years.

Heck, the first time I saw RUE on any shelves was in OKINAWA JAPAN!

Well, now Im in a small town Greenville TX and all I have is a small Hastings where I can fine Everquest, D&D, Lord of the Rings, Munchkin, and a slew of other small time games (like Buffy the Vampire slayer for some reason), but still NO Palladium games. I keep checking the Anime section to see if tSC actually made it there (due to its manga format). Its not. That ploy didnt work here in Greenville TX. No workers know what Palladium Books is.

Anyway, I find it annoying because I ONLY play Palladium games and NOBODY carries them anymore. That forces me to have to buy them via the internet, without thumbing threw it to see if its a good deal. Then I end up with 1st edition RUE and manga tSC which lists the Regent as a mecha...

Anyway, I get frustrated because I WANT to see PB do good and be on the shelves right next to D&D because I personally think of it as a superior game and I enjoy it. I just havnt seen it in 7 years.

[MikeM]

I agree that it seems Palladium has less of a presence in local comic and gaming shops than they did 10 years ago. I feel lucky that my local comic shop still stocks all new Palladium products. In fact they have 2 copies of the standard Robotech RPG (the manga one) and 1 copy of the hardcover. As well as the Rifts Anthology, Beyond the Supernatural and the latest Rifts books that came out last year. They don't carry Rifters anymore because they don't sell there, but he does get two copies in for special orders. 1 being for me.

I would love to see Palladium get more shelf space again. Do you notice that the books that do take up space though are the hardcover full colour books? Books like D&D, World of Darkness, Mutants and Masterminds, Savage Worlds, etc? At least that's how it is at my local store.

Thanks,

MikeM

[Jefffar]

Palladium has put out some good books in the past years, but most of it's smash hits came out in the late 80s or early 90s. The result is, the longer that Palladium goes without a big hit, the less product game stores are willing to order. The less produt game stores are willing to order, the less exposure Palladium product gets. The less product exposure Palladium gets the less they sell. The less they sell, the less game stores are willign to order . . . repeat until Palladium is a memory.

2 of the best moves Palladium ever made were connecting to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Robotech brands. Regretably those relationships were allowed to lapse. I beleive that if Palladium had been in position with those lisences in advance of the recent TMNT and Robotech TV and Movie releases Palladium would be in much better shape.

I am hopeful that the various Robotech projects that are being worked on now will produce exposure and sales for the Robotech RPGs. I am also hopeful that the Rifts Movie will finally come to fruition and re-energize that line.

However, waiting and relying on someone else's actions to restart your buisness is not the best of policies. I hope Kevin can find a way to produce a product that excites the gaming world again the way Rifts did when it appeared for the first time. This is going to be difficult because Kevin needs to find a product that will overcome that cycle of gaming stores purchasing less Palladium product. Kevin also needs to overcome the negative reputation (deserved or not) that Palladium has in regards to putting out their promised products at a promised schedule.

So while there is hope out there, especially if the Rifts and Robotechs properties become much hotter, Kevin has a logn way to go and a lot of hard work to get there.

I don't want to blame the theft of half a million dollars or more from the company exclusively for this situation, btu it did make Palladium's situation much more difficult to proceede with. I look back at the publication schedule at the time the theft was discovered and I wonder how many of the books that were on that list that didn't make it out are because the company just didn't have the capitol to invest in them. For Palladium, they have to pay for all the books they publish first, then hope we buy enough to cover the costs. The 2nd and 3rd BTS2 books are top of that list for me - while if they had ben published in those dark days they would have certainly made a profit for the company by now - but would the company have gone under waiting for that profit?

I think that had things gone differently regarding the theft and Palaldium had not lost so much money (or recovered more of it) the release scheules of the last fewyears would not have been so empty. I think that both the Minion War series and the new Robotech books would already be out and making money for the company. I think that BTS-2 would not be called "incomplete" by so many. I think that Palladium, while not necissarily going strong as the overall RPG industry is rather slow, would be finding it's way back onto those shelves in comic stores and maybe even manage to break into book retail space.

But hey, that's all a bunch of What Ifs and wishfull thinking. The reality of the situation is what it is. Palaldium is in a position to regain it's place in the market, but it's not there yet an there is no garuntee it will be. Kev has to move carefully, make smart decisions and have a bit of luck in the next few years to succeede.

I hope he does.