Wrong or Right

[batlchip]

Okay, I was playing a pigman in a platoon that was going through a medium city.When we got ambushed by an unknown number of VC.We were getting chopped to bits lost all the officers and most of the platoon.We ended up in a hotel with little over 2 squads left.We were taking heavy enemy fire from all the buildings around us so I grabbed the last remaining radio and called in arty and air support on the city.Blew it to H###.When we got picked up after the fight I was told that I had committed a court martial offense.

Now was I right to call in that type of support and save what was left of the unit?

[Jefffar]

If it was a courts martialable event . . . why did the artillery guys fire? They have to obey the same rules you do.

[Peacebringer]

Okay, I was playing a pigman in a platoon that was going through a medium city.When we got ambushed by an unknown number of VC.We were getting chopped to bits lost all the officers and most of the platoon.We ended up in a hotel with little over 2 squads left.We were taking heavy enemy fire from all the buildings around us so I grabbed the last remaining radio and called in arty and air support on the city.Blew it to H###.When we got picked up after the fight I was told that I had committed a court martial offense.

Now was I right to call in that type of support and save what was left of the unit?

You're the scape goat. The air support pilots obviously knew what they were targeting. You called in an air support on a South Vietnamese town of importance and now the locals, I assume, are calling for someone who's responsible (not your commanding officers, they're dead or back on base blaming you for the incidence).

Or

Are you authorized to call support? Did you pose as your commanding officer? Did you violate Army rules of engagement by calling in, against a city?

They might charge you with murder, but in Vietnam, charging someone with murder is like handing out speeding tickets at the Inndianapolis 500.

[lather]

Jefffar asks the correct question: what were the rules of engagement for the mission?

[batlchip]

We were sent out to check out rumors of a VC jump point about 5 miles from the city.Far as my character knew weapons free if attacked.Course the Intell boys didn't think we would run into hostiles untill we got within 3 miles of our target.We were told that the city was friendly.Anyway,my GM and I are gonna rp the court martial next week so any thoughts on what I should say in my defense would be helpful.

[Jefffar]

You need to establish

1) What were the RoE in regards to the city?

2) Were the RoE ever properly communicated to the participants in the mission?

3) Were the RoE ever properly communicated to the fire support commanders?

If the city was a free fire zone, no problem.

If the city was a restricted fire zone but you had no reasonable way of knowing, no problem for you.

If the city was a restricted fire zone but the fire support commnaders had no reasonable way of knowing, no problem for them.

If the city was a restricted fire zone and you or the fire support commanders could be reasonably expected to know this in advance - then you or they are boned.

For an authenticity note, most artillery and air support commanders would have clear information on where they could or couldn't drop heavy fire without authorization from higher up - so if they fired on your character's request only, they broke the law, if your character's request travelled up the chain of command to someone who could authorize the action, then it was okay.

If the MD allowed you to call in fire support wiht nobody telling your character it was a restricted fire zone and without it going up the proper chain of command . . . then he messed up

But still, your character should have known in advance of any fire restrictions in and around the city.

[lather]

Expanding on the chain of command thing.

Was there a Command and Control chopper in the air?
Was there a C2 officer on the line at the time your character called in artillery?

[batlchip]

Just got through talking with my MD he said that the officers and the nco's knew what the RoE was.There was no C2 chopper until after we were helped out by arty and air support.Remember this is the Vietnam conflict were talking about.But it seems my MD screwed up he failed to notice the RoE mistake.So looks like I'm not gonna be court martialed after all. Thanks Jefffar.

[sasha]

I think that C2 helos in Nam were common.

In fact they could be, and sometimes were, a problem for tactical commanders - the leaders on the ground. The brass in the helos thought they had total situational awareness on the ground because they were in radio contact with the ground. The urge to lead the ground from the air just could not be overcome by some of the brass.

[slade the sniper]

I think that C2 helos in Nam were common.

In fact they could be, and sometimes were, a problem for tactical commanders - the leaders on the ground. The brass in the helos thought they had total situational awareness on the ground because they were in radio contact with the ground. The urge to lead the ground from the air just could not be overcome by some of the brass.

Ahem, replace C2 helos with UAVs and you have Iraq/Afghanistan!

If commanders want to be a "commander" perhaps they should be where the action is...on the ground?

-STS

[Rockwolf66]

Ahem, replace C2 helos with UAVs and you have Iraq/Afghanistan!

If commanders want to be a "commander" perhaps they should be where the action is...on the ground?

-STS

"But sir. If we officers lead from the ground...Were going to get our [Censored] shot off. Just look at what happened to Major Murphy about three months back." Said the sniveling little Pogue from the air conditioned UAV control tent.

The proceding is a bit of humor that is based on what happened to a friend of mine in A-stan. he was shot in the Upper thigh by a taliban gunman armed with a 7.62X39mm Rifle from 800+m away.

[slade the sniper]

7.62x39mm at 800+ meters? That's just bad luck! 7.62x54R can do 800m with a skilled sniper (ahem...Chechens...) but they are pretty rare, luckily.

I know what you mean about officers being a bit...cowardly. Apparently the trend is for officers to do a tour, stay in the FOB and then claim they were "in the $hit" and point at their combat patch...

Guess that's why I'll be doing trip #5 in January...too few officers willing to go back again, and again, and again...

Oh, well, somebody's got to do it.

"Free bullets, free food and I love the work" - LT Rick Hunter to Lynn Kyle, ROBOTECH

-STS

[Rockwolf66]

7.62x39mm at 800+ meters? That's just bad luck! 7.62x54R can do 800m with a skilled sniper (ahem...Chechens...) but they are pretty rare, luckily.

I know what you mean about officers being a bit...cowardly. Apparently the trend is for officers to do a tour, stay in the FOB and then claim they were "in the $hit" and point at their combat patch...
-STS

As far as the Chechens go. The first encounter with Chechens Team Jawbreaker had was when a squad of Chechens overran a Northern Alliance hilltop bunker. The Chechens gave Team jawbreaker the Finger. In responce team Jawbreaker gave the Chechens a Jdam.

As far as Officers go My Grandfather was a Major in WWII. He was awarded for heroism in north Africa doing something that got him shot in an elbow. He never told my father what he did to earn the metal so I can't say what he did.

[GreenGhost]

7.62x39mm at 800+ meters? That's just bad luck! 7.62x54R can do 800m with a skilled sniper (ahem...Chechens...) but they are pretty rare, luckily.

I know what you mean about officers being a bit...cowardly. Apparently the trend is for officers to do a tour, stay in the FOB and then claim they were "in the $hit" and point at their combat patch...
-STS

As far as the Chechens go. The first encounter with Chechens Team Jawbreaker had was when a squad of Chechens overran a Northern Alliance hilltop bunker. The Chechens gave Team jawbreaker the Finger. In responce team Jawbreaker gave the Chechens a Jdam.

As far as Officers go My Grandfather was a Major in WWII. He was awarded for heroism in north Africa doing something that got him shot in an elbow. He never told my father what he did to earn the metal so I can't say what he did.

I know what you mean about family members not talking about what they've done to earn their medals. My father served with the 173rd in Vietnam and fought for Hill 875. He did 3 tours and earned 4 bronze stars, but won't say anything about what happened.

[slade the sniper]

7.62x39mm at 800+ meters? That's just bad luck! 7.62x54R can do 800m with a skilled sniper (ahem...Chechens...) but they are pretty rare, luckily.

I know what you mean about officers being a bit...cowardly. Apparently the trend is for officers to do a tour, stay in the FOB and then claim they were "in the $hit" and point at their combat patch...
-STS

As far as the Chechens go. The first encounter with Chechens Team Jawbreaker had was when a squad of Chechens overran a Northern Alliance hilltop bunker. The Chechens gave Team jawbreaker the Finger. In responce team Jawbreaker gave the Chechens a Jdam.

As far as Officers go My Grandfather was a Major in WWII. He was awarded for heroism in north Africa doing something that got him shot in an elbow. He never told my father what he did to earn the metal so I can't say what he did.

I know what you mean about family members not talking about what they've done to earn their medals. My father served with the 173rd in Vietnam and fought for Hill 875. He did 3 tours and earned 4 bronze stars, but won't say anything about what happened.

It's not that they won't talk about it...it's that unless you have been there, war stories don't make much sense. I can get with all my old buddies and drink and laugh, and have a grand old time talking about things...but if you do talk about it to others (spouses, especially) they have a habit of looking at you different.

Do you really want to hear how your father killed other men, or watched his best friend bleed to death...or whether the screams of people being burned alive still haunt him?

Probably not...that's why they don't talk about it. For your sake, to preserve your idea of who they are...

-STS

[Tearstone]

7.62x39mm at 800+ meters? That's just bad luck! 7.62x54R can do 800m with a skilled sniper (ahem...Chechens...) but they are pretty rare, luckily.

I know what you mean about officers being a bit...cowardly. Apparently the trend is for officers to do a tour, stay in the FOB and then claim they were "in the $hit" and point at their combat patch...
-STS

As far as the Chechens go. The first encounter with Chechens Team Jawbreaker had was when a squad of Chechens overran a Northern Alliance hilltop bunker. The Chechens gave Team jawbreaker the Finger. In responce team Jawbreaker gave the Chechens a Jdam.

As far as Officers go My Grandfather was a Major in WWII. He was awarded for heroism in north Africa doing something that got him shot in an elbow. He never told my father what he did to earn the metal so I can't say what he did.

Get those Chechens a JDAM. Chechen's love JDAMs.

[Alrik Vas]

"Free bullets, free food and I love the work" - LT Rick Hunter to Lynn Kyle, ROBOTECH

-STS

Not to nitpick, but i believe it was, "Free food, free bullets, and it sure beats working for a living."

One of my favorite lines from the novels.

[slade the sniper]

"Free bullets, free food and I love the work" - LT Rick Hunter to Lynn Kyle, ROBOTECH

-STS

Not to nitpick, but i believe it was, "Free food, free bullets, and it sure beats working for a living."

One of my favorite lines from the novels.

I stand corrected

-STS