Religion in Rifts

[GlitterKnight]

A question Iv been mulling over is religion in rifts,or at least in north america. There is little reference to what the multitudes of common people believe. Whether that's a deliberate blank space Palladium leaves, so as not to give offense or alienate anyone or it's for the gl to decide for thief own game.
The CS is officially atheist I believe so it is implied they crack down on any religious groups as dissident cults. But throughout the rest of the continent crucifixes are ubiquitous as a defense against vampires and the preacher OCC implies that Christianity is alive and well. In WB 1 several temples to Mayan gods are mentioned in Cuidad Juarez are also mentioned as well as the Mayan dark gods in the yucatan. So is there something I'm missing? Thoughts?

Also why are there vampire intelligences in a jungle? I don't care how magical it is you shouldn't live in a jungle when you melt in the rain!

[The Galactus Kid]

Religion is deliberately vague in Rifts, but is still the topic aof countless discussions and locked threads here on the forums. Do a search, and you'll se what I mean. We use religion in my game as an undertone, but Palladium has made it clear that many of the pantheons are alive and well. It really depends on who your characters worship and if your GM will allow it to be a significant factor in your game.

[Dog_O_War]

If I were a Survivor in Rifts, I wouldn't put any faith in God, or a god, or any divine power - mainly because they let the world end. I would probably believe, but I wouldn't put faith into worship; people usually find it hard to praise a spiteful lord.

That said, there will be plenty of faithful around the globe, and you can most definitely design an entire campaign just around religion. There will be many factions even within the same religion; take Cristianity and Catholocism for example. There will be faithful in the NGR that would kill their own. What I mean by this is that there might be a group of Gargoyles that hold religion first over race; their religion might be the exact same as people from the NGR.

Religion is best only theorized about here though, as (previously mentioned by The Galactus Kid, above) people battle it out when it comes to beliefs and faiths. religion is a sticky topic that always seems to divide people, like politics and sex.


On a side note, a friend of mine came up with a wild dogboy fire&brimstone preacher that was pretty cool.

[The Galactus Kid]

Religion is best only theorized about here though, as (previously mentioned by The Galactus Kid, above) people battle it out when it comes to beliefs and faiths. religion is a sticky topic that always seems to divide people, like politics and sex.

You can't talk about politics and sex. Thats it. I hate you now.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Also why are there vampire intelligences in a jungle? I don't care how magical it is you shouldn't live in a jungle when you melt in the rain!

Read Vampire Kingdoms page 45, item #6 for the reason why they chose the Yucatan.

~ Josh

[Balabanto]

Actually, in the conversion book, there is a True Priest O.C.C. so your PC can choose a religion and proseletyze, just as they can in every other RPG.

And yes, God is a religion according to those rules.

[GlitterKnight]

Thats about what I figured. It would a shattering test of faith to believe in a loving and merciful god when demons eat your family. That's the kind of thing you'd expect gods help with. But the thing is religion endures in times of trouble and can grow if people believe only it can save them. For all those who abandon faith for reason and science or whatever philosohy there will be more who believe harder. The use of crosses against vampires and the preachers in the west implies that Christianity survives there. God at least is still helpful against vampires, in some peoples eyes. Whether spawned of necessity and invention or belief, preachers have some power and the symbol of their god harms a terrible enemy in the southwest. It would be natural for people to cling to the religion they know best for protection especially when has real power against their enemies

[runebeo]

Seems to me as science advances more people become atheists and as more religions fall into mythology category. I believe in the next few decades most governments will start distancing themselves from all religion and as atheist become the norm the people that openly practice their faith will become more and more mocked. Look how religion has prosecuted some groups over the coarse of history, their turn maybe coming soon. John Lennon song Imagine handle this subject well.

[Mack]

Please keep this to a Rifts discussion.

[Defender_X]

Keeping the discussion game related, I find that religion can be a useful tool game-wise for furthering the story or enhancing it. Kinda like mining modern politics and headlines for game plotlines. Useful, but don't be too heavy-handed about it.

[mobuttu]

Religion do exist in Rifts. Take a look at the Preacher OCC (New West), mutant religion in Madhaven, and a whole pantheon book. Besides, in the books God is sometimes summoned, but is a theme always left aside. Use it as you see fit in your campaign.

[green.nova343]

Hmmm, let's see...

-- Post-apocalyptic setting that calls to mind the inflammatory rhetoric of your "traditionalist" fire-and-brimstone preacher
-- heightened chances for characters (including NPCs) to have psionic powers
-- potential for PCs & NPCs to have insanities where they think their "powers" or abilities are "divine gifts"
-- the "return" of "the old gods" (not "The Elder Gods", as that would be more in line with The Old Ones reawakening), and O.C.C.s to provide powers to their head worshipers (& can be modified for existing religions)
-- &, of course, the potential backlash against science, since it was the global arms race leading up to it (fueled by the rapid advances in technology) that instigated the Great Cataclysm in the first place, combined with the failure of technology's hosts (particularly in the form of NEMA) to be able to push back the tide of demons & monsters spilling through the Rifts

Yes, in order to avoid any potential legal conflicts (or riling up those "do-gooders" that are still convinced all RPGs are "of the Devil"), Palladium has avoided providing any details about how the real world's religions fare in the Rifts settings. But I have no doubt that religion is alive & kicking, with plenty of "true believers" out there. Heck, if nothing else, it's the perfect justification for the Rifts Nega-Psychic (whose claim to power isn't that he doesn't believe that the metaphysical exists; he just has 100% belief that the supernatural can't hurt him).

[Greyaxe]

On a side note, a friend of mine came up with a wild dogboy fire&brimstone preacher that was pretty cool.

Yes but did he eat the guts of sinners...

[The Galactus Kid]

The entire first part of my minion war campaign centered around a group of three towns in the former state of Maine that I extrapolated from the "religion" of an old PC of one of my players. The original character was an exiled danzanite. In his back story, his people had found a collection of "divine recordings" of Tony Danza, George Costanza, and the cast of Bonanza.

The character was a head hunter anti-robot specialist, and a danzanite, so the danzanite city was tech based. The costanzanite city was psionic based, and the bonanzanite city was magic based. It made for some interesiting interaction between the players and the NPC's and could easily have been just been a different set of groups in maine, ut the religious ties to our ongoing campaign and the minion war was great. The players were sent there to stop the hades demons from attacking the only congregations of "lesser gods". It was pretty funny.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

in b4 flamewar

[Spinachcat]

In the real world, every religion has changed over the centuries with the alterations in culture, technology and cross-polination with new philosophies and other religions. In all eras, specific circumstances or particular individuals of charisma have created either their own sects of a religion or a completely "new" religion that is generally an amalgamation of other faiths.

The calamity of Chaos Earth combined with the Dark Ages that followed would certainly dramatically alter any existing religions and certainly lead to the rise of many, many new ones. Look at the CS, they certainly practice the faith of statism which taken to its extreme becomes the Imperium in Warhammer 40k.

If you want to bring religion into Rifts, check with your players first. My band of athiests are happy to play nutjob fanatics of whatever kooky preacher I throw into games. Considering Rifts has actual Pantheons whose members can walk the world and there are portals to actual Hell dimensions with actual demons, these facts are certainly going to change the dynamics of religion and thoughts on the supernatural, the afterlife and the role of the divine in the life of humans, D-bees and even other supernatural beings.

If religion adds fun and drama to your game, go for it. If it does not, chuck it. Just remember that one person's weirdo cult is another's personal belief system so check with the players to avoid offending.

[csbioborg]

there really aren't enough cults

Madhaven did a good job with that but there should be more

it is a misnomer that the CS has no religion however.

there is no evidence of that other than thier hate of the superntural

that is like saying I don't like human sacrifice therefore I must be an atheist

[Severite]

I find adding religion makes the game fairly interesting, the trick is getting it both believable, interesting, and not alienating anyone at the table. For Rifts, I would mix in real world religion, in terms of NPC, removing all the "fringe benefits" other then very, very rare cases, and "made up" religions with a number of bennies, but they would be less "gods" and more uber powerful "employers". Its all in presentation, which for my own presonal tastes works. The Coalition is played as having a homogenous state run divne right destiny, but minus serving anyone other then mankind, so less a religion, and more a state of mind.

[GlitterKnight]

I see now that I've hit an old sticking point. Ah well, let's all really try to keep our comments based in the game world, please.

When I said I believed that the Coalition was atheist, I meant because both the very feel of the CS and all the evidence I've seen from the books paints a certain picture in my mind. I know that the religion of the peoples of RIFTS North America is not elaborated on for purposes expressed above, but I feel the Coalition is not suffering very much from that particular blank spot. I believe they do, as Spinachcat said, practice a form of statism. As has been made evident, the Coalition elite are a bunch of Nazis, and as Erin Tarn mused, Prosek probably based them specifically on the Nazi regime. Their ideology of human superiority, purity, and right to all of Earth, along with their reverence for the 'leader', does, I suppose, fit the bill of a 'statist' religion. If someone would like to define a statist religion more completely for our purposes, I would appreciate it. I understand the jist of the idea, but not fully.
I mean religion in the context of the belief in and worship of a supernatural being of, I suppose, great or ultimate power. The problem I see the CS having with that, is there are tons of gods and supernatural beings running around! And the CS generally shoot them all on sight. Why tolerate one group of people woshipping a distant and apparantly false god, and shoot another bunch worshipping something talking to them out of a Rift? Both believe in something supernatural, and CS indoctrinate their people into believing that the supernatural is evil and threatening, and the CS is the only thing that can protect them. So I don't think they'd tolerate anyone worshipping anything supernatural, as aiding and abetting the enemy. Perhaps they'd reason that even if it's a false religion, a demon or mage could easily manipulate such gullible people into being its agents.
Though the cult of personality around the Emperor and the Prosek family is somewhat seperate from that, and I agree; if the CS survives for some centuries, I'm sure that the Emperor will become deified, or at least some kind of patron saint, and the Prosek family revered for their blood royale. I also admit that the CS are not explicitly anti religious, and that it is not stated that they oppress any believers. But I see in the CS both Nazi ideology of human purity, superiority, right to all they survey as well as a, to my eyes, Soviet cult of personality of the leader, such as surrounded Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and other Communist dictators. Although that is perhaps too deliberate a link; kings have always been imbued by people and history as possessing divine rights, powers, and authority. And the Communist regimes I speak of were officially atheist; the CS is not, apparantly. And the man declared himself emperor, so maybe he's looking for some serious deification.

I also concur; they're aren't enough cults. Granted, that kind of thing can become dead tiresome very quickly with the religious loonies and their demon god of the week, but Spinachcat is right again (good for him!) Religion changes like any other aspect of human society over centuries, and no place is better for cross pollination of new traditions and ideas than RIFTS Earth, where you could have pilgrims and missionaries and hermits from a billion worlds all tramping through the same city square, getting up on their soap boxes and preaching to the masses. The new traditions that would come about would be very interesting, to say the least.

Actually I only just recalled the Mystic Russia WB, in which the whole Russian pantheon was explored. How did I forget that? I love the Russia books, mostly the borgs, but I loved the smith gods followers, with the giant magic sledge and the MDC tongs. I gotta go reread that. And I remember RIFTS own Dr. Moreau, Desmond Bradford, has a full on god complex and views Prosek as a fellow god, though I don't think Prosek is quite that delusional himself.

[GlitterKnight]

I was just struck by the foolishness of my initial presumption. I was wondering about religion in RIFTS, specifically North America. Then I mentioned Mystic Russia and I realized that I'm an idiot. Again. Even more relevant was Spirit West book; detailing the Native Americans and their spiritual beliefs in the world they returned to. Yeah, so...

Well, the Native American Traditionalists are certainly well explored, but they don't make up that much of North America's human population. I and others here have talked about the Coalition's stance on religion, and I think we've come to some good points and interesting ideas. One of my original posts points was the use of crosses against vampires. I know that the cross as a symbol predates Christianity, but it seemed to be used in a specific Christian context. I'm not sure of the original meaning of the cross, but as a magical symbol to ward off undead demons, I felt it was clearly Christian. I have theorized, though, that I might be wrong. Vampire's vulnerabilities are centered around the 'elements', though which specific cosmological group of elements are meant is unclear. But Fire, Water, and Earth are linked to the chinks in their power. Fire; the light of the sun, and their vulnerability to being burned and destroyed while staked. Water is the greatest; its touch destroys them. Earth is their need to sleep on the soil of their homeland, where they were turned. So if the cross is meant as perhaps a hermetic symbol, symbolizing the four hermetic elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, then I suppose it works on more of a magical rather than a spiritual level against them. Though I wonder; do they have no vulnerability to Air? I can't really think of one unless it's linked to fire through the sun's light. Also; water harms them, even standing water, so does fog, mist, steam, and other water vapor affect them? I would assume not, as their weakness does seem to be tied to the water in it's liquid physical state; otherwise wouldn't the water vapor in the air hurt them? Maybe it does, it would explain their preference for the desert; little rain and little moisture in the air. More temperate climes would only hurt them to a sort of ache; not enough to damage them points wise, as their bio regen is too great.
But back to the main point; in North America, we have the CS, who to my mind, would reject any religion that worships a supernatural being. They do acknowledge such beings existence, because they have to fight them, but they propagandize that all such beings are evil, so I don't think they'd be too pleased with any religion that worshipped one. Whether they worship the Emperor and the Proseks, or the strength of humanity (which I guess would be a warped form of humanism), I don't think they'd cotton to any traditional Western religion that existed among their people. And the Native Americans of most of the continent seem to hold to their traditional beliefs, at least partly for the power it gives them. So that, I think, colors those two groups in on our "religious beliefs" chart. The Preacher OCC in the West seems to show that the freedom out west allows some form of Christianity to survive, but doesn't elaborate too much on it's form. I'd like to explore the other people more; the open side. What do you think most people believe in North America, who aren't Native Americans brought up in their people's beliefs, or in the CS where little religious freedom would seem allowed?

[Severite]

I personally play the vast majority of NA east of the magic zone to be scattered with Protestant/Catholic settlements, with some haveing a mixture, or even both, depending on what that particular group started with, and what men of cloth are avilable. West of the magic zone are predominately fire and brimestone Baptist types, just because they seem to fit the overall setting, at least for me. The magic zone is......well, pretty much filled with small pockets/middling size communities worshipping whatever happened to take power in that area.

[taalismn]

I figure most warrior-types will have at least a passing belief in a war-god or two to which they dedicated some lucky amulet or souvenir...and generally have a 'Conan'-style relationship with their patron deity("Crom, grant me victory today...and if you don't...you can go to hell..."). Likewise, a lot of peasant-types are going to have a similar open-market faith...If sacrificing two or three years in a row doesn't work, time to start shopping for another god/divine protector...

[Lord_Dalgard]

Chello!

But back to the main point; in North America, we have the CS, who to my mind, would reject any religion that worships a supernatural being. They do acknowledge such beings existence, because they have to fight them, but they propagandize that all such beings are evil, so I don't think they'd be too pleased with any religion that worshipped one. Whether they worship the Emperor and the Proseks, or the strength of humanity (which I guess would be a warped form of humanism), I don't think they'd cotton to any traditional Western religion that existed among their people.

I agree, but for different reasons. Totalitarian forms of government have historically been hostile to traditional religions...the Consulate with its "Cult of Reason" during the French Revolution, Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. There is also a trend toward a lack of religion with technolgically-advanced societies, so it is a safe bet that there would be no organized religion in the NGR.

As to areas outside the CS proper, I think the Preacher OCC does point to the fact that there is some kind of traditional Christian religion still out there. Whether it would be any form we would recognize, I have no idea.

[taalismn]

Praise the Lord and Pass the E-clips.

[Library Ogre]

I had a thought as to what would probably be highly damaging to Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) as we know it (them): Three hundred years of illiteracy. Three hundred years with few books being produced, few disks being read, and a whole mess o' general ignorance. Without concerted education on the subject, you're going to see a lot of local, syncretic, cults with varying ideas of deity.

[taalismn]

Christianity would be fragmented as ever in Rifts...as for a CS stance on it? Prosek realizes that people cling to familiar things, and he's not going to rattle the social elements of the Christians in the CS...on the other hand, he's promoting his own cult of personality with his CS as savior both in the phsyical and the spiritual sense...and religious gatherings of ANY sort are subject to scrutiny by the authorities to make sure that a) they don't become cults using harmless religion as a cover, and b) that the ceremonies aren't being used by other nefarious elements posing as divine messengers or as PPE taps...
This scrutiny could be in the form of the overt presence of military personnel(as security or as visible members of the congregation) or by undercover personnel listening n as part of Domestic Security...
That having been said, some of the more hardcore elements in the CS have deliberately begun to adopt parts of the old time religions to lure in the uncertain and mold them into diehard hardcore human supremacists....Confession to CS 'chaplins', absolution of one's sins through the destruction of the D-Bee, abstination from anything that would cloud one's judgement, the idea of extreme personal sacrifice absolving one's petty crimes, and constant pounding of manifest destiny and Earth as a Holy Land move the fence-straddlers into the Prosek fold...
Of course, there's hardly a drop of proper Christianity, Islam, and Judiasm in the 'permitted' CS-mandated 'church'...its real purpose is to ferret out the dissidents, and sway the persuadible away from more dangerous paths of thought and firmly into the techno-political racial supremacist mindset that would be ideal...
However, that having been said, the CS is likely to still have problems selling their idea, since people cling to their old convictions rather hard...so the CS isn't really pushing the idea of a state-sanctioned religion/belief-system, but is gradually easing thinking towards it...

[Mack]

Although it would be fun to do something with Scientology. Anybody know what Xenu's stats are?

This is the type of comment that gets Topics Locked and Official Warnings issued.

Don't go down this path.

[Greyaxe]

Although it would be fun to do something with Scientology. Anybody know what Xenu's stats are?

This is the type of comment that gets Topics Locked and Official Warnings issued.

Don't go down this path.

The real reason Palladium doesn't include religion in the context of its games. Everyone and their uncle will want stats for religious figures.


I often wondered what Jesus stats would be, bet he has a high MA. and ME... stuff like that.

[rat_bastard]

the idea that people don't believe in rifts earth because the world ended is somewhat silly to me.

Rifts is a Post-post-apocalypse world, not a ended world, for crises of faith see Chaos Earth. In rifts earth, I see faith as ubiquitous everywhere but in the CS where it is strictly banned as fraternizing with the enemy. As there are men who can do miracles in the name of their gods, demons that are harmed by holy items and many situations where a little help from above would mean life or death, people need faith and there is suddenly alot to choose from.

[Misfit KotLD]

Actually I only just recalled the Mystic Russia WB, in which the whole Russian pantheon was explored. How did I forget that?

You probably "forgot" that because Mystic Russia doesn't have the deities fleshed out in it. The Mystic Kuznya is in there, but the gods aren't. I can't remember what issue of the Rifter they were in, but it was an early one....
They did have the Catholic Priest OCC in Warlords of Russia WB17, but I know that doesn't help...

I had a thought as to what would probably be highly damaging to Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) as we know it (them): Three hundred years of illiteracy. Three hundred years with few books being produced, few disks being read, and a whole mess o' general ignorance. Without concerted education on the subject, you're going to see a lot of local, syncretic, cults with varying ideas of deity.

That's why I never played the CS as christians.

Just to go real world on you, the Catholic Church functioned for centuries with an illiterate body of adherents. Only the clergy and societal elites were likely to be literate. Sounds like the CS.

In the games I play and run, the ancient religions as presented in Pantheons, England, and elsewhere are alive and well. I just tweak them a little, generally to get closer to the actual mythology. I have some thoughts on how to handle the Abrahamic religions that are a little different than how the others are handled.

[Library Ogre]

You must keep in mind though that these religions are from a time where books were rare and valuable and most people were illiterate. Most Christian and Jewish traditions were passed down verbally. Beyond that in the time after the apocalypse people would return to religion. Parents would pass on traditions about God and such. Scrounging through ruins people would find old Bibles scattered in the ruins and destroyed motels. Also, there was a time were being a Christian or Jew very easily meant you would be thrown to the lions or worse. Religious people are quite scrappy.

Fifteen hundred years ago, this was true. However, for about the past 500 years, Christianity, at least, has relied, in a large part, on written records. Judaism has done so for even longer. This does not mean that the religions would disappear, but that they would fragment, becoming syncretic (i.e. adding aspects of other religions and beliefs). Given the isolation of Rifts communities (more extreme than that of communities in the Middle Ages, given the lack of overarching organizations or a national sense), you're going to see substantial evolution of beliefs... especially as beliefs prove inefficacious in Rifts Earth, compared to other beliefs. It's no longer a matter of "In hoc signo vinces", but that many other religions (even cults of ignorance, arrayed around wizards and psychics, to say nothing of worshiping true deities) will result in your priest being able to call on daily healing of wounds and lightning from the sky... especially given Palladium's current position that YHWH doesn't answer prayers as visibly as Quetzalcoatl, and a fourth level wizard can be Shadrac, Meshac, and Abednego.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
Whether that's a deliberate blank space Palladium leaves,
...snip

Yes

If I were a Survivor in Rifts, I wouldn't put any faith in God, or a god, or any divine power - mainly because they let the world end....snip

But if you survied the world's end.....and you are still on said planet, then you haven't survied the world's end.
but just because God lets US do what we will, Don't go blaiming him for the Evil WE Make.

Since the coming of the rifts was a caused by the nuclear war, it was not 'an act of god'.
Besides there are plant of gods in pf and they are almost intagal in the game play. They are 'safe' because the players are free to make up their own doctren for those religions.

Where the ones of this earth, if PB even said a tiny bit about what doctren is to be applied to them. Sue, Sue Sue, and maybe boom if some crazy fanatic trying for paridise got brainwash into thinking about things the wrong way.

So they keep hands off,

While they do present the gods of russia they didn't do the same for china and japan.
In SA2 they barely scratched the surface of the myan gods. Even the RCB2 doesn't get into the docteren, just presenting the gods of each culture.

[Vrykolas2k]

I had a thought as to what would probably be highly damaging to Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) as we know it (them): Three hundred years of illiteracy. Three hundred years with few books being produced, few disks being read, and a whole mess o' general ignorance. Without concerted education on the subject, you're going to see a lot of local, syncretic, cults with varying ideas of deity.

The theory would work better if christianity hadn't alread weathered longer periods of illiteracy.

[GlitterKnight]

I can very easily believe that there is a pervasive Christianity outside of the Coalition's sphere of influence. An excellent point that Harbrynd made; Bibles in every hotel and motel room in the country, on top of being just in general one of the most printed books in the world, would make them ubiquitous. I do not, however, believe that a real distinction between Protestant and Catholic would persist. The hodgepodge of bible versions, and the lack of surviving tradition would erase a lot of the differences. Though Catholicism survived centuries with an illiterate laiety, it also had the organizational links throughout Europe and centuries of tradition; the Cataclysm will have done for those. So I think there would be elements and traces of each tradition in places, but it would be a new synthesis. I also agree that there would a great deal of local, folk, idiosyncretic variations on tradition.

[Talavar]

I personally believe that the CS should be "officially" atheist, just as the Soviet Union was - but with a lot of people still practicing their religions covertly. Any society with such a strong distrust of the supernatural seems to fit atheism quite well. However, there are a few references to God scattered in some CS speeches, so I think they're basically Christian. That'll never be officially spelled out of course, and I can understand that.

I also think there'd be a host of new religions around the globe, and old ones revivified - and most would be based on results. In a world where the supernatural is observable and fairly quantifiable, a worshipper is going to expect their religion to get things done. Whether that's the result of magic users among the faithful, lesser (or greater) supernatural beings lending a hand, or priests of the Pantheons books style, who can actually do spells and miracles. Religions of a purely philosophical and moral leaning would be far less popular, I believe, in the time of Rifts for those reasons.

[dark brandon]

Most of my characters and in most of the campaigns I run, most PC's and NPC's have a judeo-christian outlook on life. Except for my juicer, who's more of a "family man" than religious, I take into account the vast number of christians in the US, and the fact of all books, it's the most published book out there. If any book were to survive, it's going to be a bible. That said, unless a priest, most people have religion as a backdrop rather than foreground. They aren't learned in the ways of the bible, but have a basic concept. Even the CS states, while atheistic on paper, nearly everyone believes in god in some point. there is generally religious tolerance since nearly everyone in the CS is disciplined or knowledgeable to call upon any gods assistance.

There are going to be some cases of "blessed" people who can call upon a god, but never like what is described in the books. For the most part any/all gods "know" the danger any citizen would be in, thus if they assist, it's in the form of blessings that are relitivly untraceable. A bonus to hit, lucky coincidences...ect...

Religion doesn't hold the power it does in todays world, and is used mainly for solace for death and to give hope for a better future. For the most part, it's a topic of discussion and something you do before bed or when you're in a situation you can do nothing else but pray.

[The Galactus Kid]

i think the CS are laregely athiest and crack down on relelgious groups. including christians, jews and muslims. i do know the new sovietski allows catholic priests.

...which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion. If anything, they should be derivatives of orthodox.

[Misfit KotLD]

i think the CS are laregely athiest and crack down on relelgious groups. including christians, jews and muslims. i do know the new sovietski allows catholic priests.

...which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion. If anything, they should be derivatives of orthodox.

Your first mistake.

[The Galactus Kid]

i think the CS are laregely athiest and crack down on relelgious groups. including christians, jews and muslims. i do know the new sovietski allows catholic priests.

...which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion. If anything, they should be derivatives of orthodox.

Your first mistake.

Its ok. At least i can fix my mistakes by writing them into canon. hahahaha

[dark brandon]

i think the CS are laregely athiest and crack down on relelgious groups. including christians, jews and muslims. i do know the new sovietski allows catholic priests.

...which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion. If anything, they should be derivatives of orthodox.

Your first mistake.

Its ok. At least i can fix my mistakes by writing them into canon. hahahaha

win

[Misfit KotLD]

i think the CS are laregely athiest and crack down on relelgious groups. including christians, jews and muslims. i do know the new sovietski allows catholic priests.

...which doesn't really make sense, in my opinion. If anything, they should be derivatives of orthodox.

Your first mistake.

Its ok. At least i can fix my mistakes by writing them into canon. hahahaha

A fool fixes his own mistakes. A wise man fixes the mistakes of fools.

[Misfit KotLD]

A fool fixes his own mistakes. A wise man fixes the mistakes of fools.

Was this yours, or from someone else? If yours, can I had it to my sig? Me like.

It's a paraphrase of a saying on learning, but feel free to sig it.

A fool learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the fool's.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A fool fixes his own mistakes. A wise man fixes the mistakes of fools.

A wise man fixes his own mistakes, a fool tries to fix others' 'mistakes' by leaving his own to fester.

[GlitterKnight]

Let's try to stick to the original topic, eh, and keep the sig's to ourselves, or at least brief.

[Misfit KotLD]

Let's try to stick to the original topic, eh, and keep the sig's to ourselves, or at least brief.

But we like tangents.

[GlitterKnight]

Well then you perhaps we should start a tangent thread; all tangents all the time...but then they wouldnt be tangents...

[Misfit KotLD]

Well then you perhaps we should start a tangent thread; all tangents all the time...but then they wouldnt be tangents...

Exactly.

[GlitterKnight]

That's certainly an interesting idea killgore, and segues to a point I wanted to make. There is a low level invocation that will temporarily charge an object to ward off the undead and vampires, but that is spell magic, which requires both significant PPE and the ability to weild magic. The cross requires no such thing, its power works on its own. Even if you sacrificed a demigod, or god, or whatever you'd choose to stat Jesus as, upon the cross as a ritual to empower the symbol, and PPE doubles at death, there is still the problem of duration. I don't know how much PPE that might be, but Earth has already seen off one major invasion from the undead in the Middle Ages, according to WB 1, so we've used the cross's power a lot. At some point it would run it. And would it ever suck to be the guy who finds out somebody else just used the last of the juice?

"Awww cra-"

And I also caught the Catholic v. Orthodox thing in WB 17. I kind of let that one go at the time, but now it seems suspicious. Aww well, I think we need to redirect our train of thought a bit. It's no mystery why the dominant religions in the western world are studiously ignored in Rifts Earth, with some notable exceptions (crosses, Preacher OCC, whatever denomination reigns in Russia); PB really, really, really doesn't wanna get sued or lose fans. But even in that, there's the old double standard. The spiritual beliefs of Native Americans, at least the plains tribes, got a whole book, and the pantheon of Russia did get a write up (indeed, I was mistaken about that, it did appear in a Rifter issue). Along with the Egyptian gods who got some material in WB 4, we have a serious kinda double standard here. We can't ignore religion entirely, but you can't really find interesting and believable religions for a post apocalyptic setting without touching a little on real world beliefs, which will annoy somebody. I personally vote for annoying everybody equally. Lets get some Christian theurgist mages in, Qaballa magic, Sufi mysticism. Let's go bloody hog wild. If anybody complains, point out the disclaimer in the beginning of every book. Everyone gets their own kind of sweet magician; even an atheist one! They could look at magic totally like a energy force to understand, a new science to tackle. Not TW, but rationalist and mathematics based sorcery. Could be fun to work out.

But since PB has understandable reasons, lets keep the this thread moving towards what we think religion in Rifts should be. What traditions we think would survive where, what beliefs would spring up, what old beliefs would come back into vogue. What kind of a spiritual mindset do people in Rifts Earth have? If you could walk down the street in Tolkeen, see 2 demons, 3 angels and a demigod, does that narrow the gulf between you and the divine, or widen it? Many people say they feel physically close to the divine, but usually not in the sense of watching a god order an espresso and read the newspaper at a coffee shop. What kind of view does that engender towards gods in general? Something I wonder is how people start defining what is a "god"? God is an RCC, as is Demigod, and both have immense power in game, but I feel like I couldn't revere anybody I could watch ordering an espresso. And not just because I can actually see them, or because they drink espresso.

[csbioborg]

I think the minute someone realizes there God could be mowed down by a regiment of mecha without difficulty faith would become a issue

[drewkitty ~..~]

(A)Maybe it's because the Orthodox Church was always so anti-government, while the Catholic Church was more then willing to attend to the religious needs of the soldiers while ignoring government issues.
Maybe the author realizes that catholic stands for something, and other religions then Roman Catholics call themselves catholic.
But I'm betting that the author just didn't know that the Russian Orthodox Church was never part of the Roman Universal Church.

(B)Just thought of something to explain the cross effecting vampires’ question.
The Cross is a symbol of protection in ward magic correct? How much PPE does it take to activate it? Would you get enough from a human sacrifice, especially in a ritual that caused a lot of suffering, to power a protection from vampires spell? Is that why the Romans used crosses to execute criminals, make their death serve a useful purpose?
Now, what happens if they inadvertently sacrifice a major deific figure?
Think about it.

(A) [reasons behind the conclusion] "Render unto Caesar what is Censer's, and unto the Lord what is to the Lord" This was the answer given to the question 'who should we pay taxes to, Caesar or the temple?'
Thus christens are to pay their taxes like good citizens, while giving their hearts to their faith. (not to say to keep their faith privet, just doing their civic duties to the communities they live in.)
Even in oppressive countries, you can live as your faith dictates w/o too much official notice of the government.[/reasons behind the conclusion]
Therefore, if the church in the CS doesn't form a centralized organization, the CS government would leave them as a whole, alone.
(is talking from personal knowledge so I will limit myself to what I know)

(B) historically speaking, death by crucifixion is the worst way to be put to death both in pain and agony, but in shame and the public nature of the sentence. For while it was a death sentence of horrible nature, it was also a warning to the population. Much like the head/body on the spike over a castle gate was a warning in europe. Said major deity did seek said execution to protect his followers.

Converting to Rifts thinking; the cost of the protection has been paid, making any and all crosses into holy symbols. The cost being the self-sacrificing death of a God, thus making the protection permanent across the face of the earth, and maybe the moon/Luna.