DTMK's review of Dead Reign RPG

DtMK · Unread post by **DtMK** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:12 pm

Before I get started, I simply want to state that the following is a review of the official release of the Dead Reign RPG from Palladium Books, and the opinions, views and possible conjecture I write about may not reflect the same views of anyone at Palladium Books. Will it be a good barometer of other people's opinions? I don't know, time will tell. And for those that are interested, this review is being posted on the Palladium Books forum, my blog on Myspace, and a few other places that appreciate RPG reviews.

When I first read Rifter 40, Dead Reign was an excellent idea! I've wanted to do a zombie game for a while now, and this looked promising. I liked the synopsis, the world view, answers to the military presence being gone, as well as the secret reason behind it. A pharmaceutical company called The Benford Group makes a cure for cancer called Unisane, and people eat it up. Then The Wave hits, and people start dying, then eating each other. The truth behind it? A cult that has existed for millenia empowered by a demon lord named Brulyx actually are trying to get him access back to Earth after being locked out thousands of years ago. Turns out, the only way to open the doors again is a mass ritual of sacrifice. the Black Plague? Brulyx and his cult. Now they mix science and sorcery to achieve their goals, and we get a creepy romp into zombie town.

This book was highly anticipated, it was seen as an expanse into the world created by its writers. I liked the initial three types of zombies, the possibility that magic was relatively unknown, people started having the possibility of developing psychic powers, and depending on your own inner nature of magic or psychic potential, it would determine the kind of zombie you'd turn into. There was also talk of a revised combat system allowing the players to take on large groups of zombies shambling towards them. This could be revolutionary and great, if done right. It hinted at a lot, like Brulyx's own forces starting to take over the world, demons coming to Earth as the powerful enforcers of the cult in case zombies aren't enough. With the Minion Wars book series pushed back over a year, I thought this would be great! We can see if this will be a tie-in book, it could be a two-fer! Plus, it mentioned that the civilization that stopped Brulyx was ancient, and shortly after died off. Since Atlantis was a little later in the timeline, there was only one other culture hinted about in Palladium that could fit the description: Lemuria! They were mentioned in Rifts Underseas, and people have anticipated that book for years now. This looked like it was zombies, plus a lot of other goodies to whet the appetites of anticipation for other Palladium Books!

And yesterday, I finally got the book. Okay, let me mention the good parts FIRST.

The zombie type count goes up from the initial three as Slouchers, Runners and Thinkers to seven, plus the Half-Living is interesting. These are people that were bitten, go into a coma-like state, then awake with some of the zombie's gifts, but still can think and act on their own. The Crawler is nice, Runners are now Fast Attacking zombies, Flesh-Eating Zombies are a take on the classic ghoul given that the zombies in both DR and Rifter 40 are actually feeding on the mystic energy in living things called Potential Psychic Energy, or P.P.E. for newbies to the system. Pattern Zombies are a nice take on the turned acting out a semblance of their old lives, Mock Zombies are intelligent and can speak, and LOOK undead, but swear they aren't! It's an interesting mind-screw if players are introduced to them.

The artwork is fantastic, big kudos for bringing these mental images to life. The zombies themselves are more necrotically fleshed out, their description of their senses, their longevity and ability to be dormant is extended, it goes into more detain in their moans, their attack patterns, they're a little tougher, describing how certain attacks are more effective against them. The playable classes of people in the games are somewhat varied, my favorite has to be the Hound Master. I've been wanting to play someone that wrangles and trains dogs to help them, and I've had to scour other Palladium books and Rifters to cobble something up for modern games. The other menaces like Retro Savages remind me of that creepy family in the rv in the movie series Rest Stop. Terror Cults and Death Cults, it goes into other dangers, the Resources info is decent, stressing the need for survival.

BUT....and yes, it's a big one. For those of you reading this, this is the pause before I go into the negatives. If you are easily upset but criticism, this is the time to put on your verbal cups. Ready or not, here it comes.

BUT....this is NOT the book I pre-ordered.

The world breakdown by geography is missing from the Rifter 40's version, there are notes for combating the undead, but NO large combat rules, which was a big anticipation! The secret reason behind the zombie apocalypse is now replaced by 5 big theories, none of which are definitive. The Cult of Brulyx if mentioned, but now instead of leading the zombies, they seem to get along by placating their hunger for P.P.E. Brulyx is mentioned more as a death god than a demon, NO info on his demonic hordes, no stats on him, NO magic or even Psionics, which has been a staple for Palladium's other books since it began! The O.C.C.'s in the book are okay, but although there is potential in the Shepherd of the Damned and Scrounger, they seem to be little more than glorified homeless people or looters told from their perspective. The Survivors are okay, and represent most ordinary people after the Wave. Oh, in the Rifter 40, there was a definitive date to the event. Now, the book doesn't give any date, it picks up five months after The Wave, the wonder drug Unisane's name is changed to Altrucure, and people suspect it, but they also have the wrath of God, germ warfare, government experiments, etc. to suspect what happened.

Oh, here's something I have to mention. The Thinkers in the original Rifter 40 were people with mystic potential, and were still intelligent, could talk, and had the power to control the other zombies! This was frightening, given that they still had their skills, intellect and reasoning abilities. A zombie leading other zombies on a hunt, capable of using guns, driving cars, now this is some scary stuff! It's a step above the leader zombie shown in Land of the Dead. However, the revised Thinker in the DR book is now more like that George Romero version, they can reason, but can't speak, they're not as intelligent as the original, and they can use tools, but not very well. It went from being an original, intellectually frightening version elevated from one big inspiration, back to type. I can't get over this, you dumbed down the Thinkers!

I think that bares repeating: You dumbed down the Thinkers! All right, everybody this time, join in with me! With feeling!

YOU DUMBED DOWN THE THINKERS!!!

Look, there's a place for these new types, but I prefer the ones in Rifter 40 better. If we're laveling these new types by alphabet, I classify these latter Thinkers as Type D. The D stands for DEE DEE DEE!!!

As it is, the book is OKAY, it's PLAYABLE. It's now what I expected though, and not what others were as well I'd imagine. I was told that there was so much more that could have gone into it, that Palladium will release a Dead Reign sourcebook next year. That's good, because honestly? I feel like I only received about HALF the book I expected. Will the sourcebook fill in the gaps? Who knows. I'd certainly like to think so. I do like the going in further of the zombie hunting patterns. The text, descriptions, big kudos go out to Max Brooks, writer of The Zombie Survival Guide and World War Z, because it was right out of those books, statted out for the game. Unfortunately his name's not on the book credits, but for fleshing it out, there should at least be a nod.

Okay, here comes my conjecture. This is only speculation on my part, but let me try to relay my thoughts here. The book feels a bit bland, the expected spices of the demons, background into an ancient civilization and large group combat were all things that made my mouth water in anticipation for this book! But without it? It just comes off as more bland. Plain. Unordinary.

Now, my conjecture extends into what I think happened here. Kevin Siembieda, founder, creator and owner of Palladium Books has always been a man who likes players that think their way out of situations over simply having the raw power to do so. I respect this, I agree, it makes people step up to a challenge. Me, I like a mix of ability and intelligence to pull things off. And Palladium has grown in gaming circles as a power gamer's system if used or abused. I understand that. And the options are there to lower or raise your own game world's power level or ability at your discretion.

When I heard before the book came out that there would be a shift from few psychics and less magic potential to NO Psionics and Magic, a staple in Palladium's games for years, lines were drawn in the sand. I know, I drew at least one of them. People that liked the lack of magic and psychics cheered, others who anticipated the expanded Rifter 40 version like myself were upset. Less for the survivors to have in their potential favor, less than anticipated, less than was expected?

I know that people like both survival horror as ordinary people, and as specialists, people above the norm with a better chance at survival. Kevin also lessend potential in the second edition of Beyond the Supernatural, and also talked about the possibility of a game a few years ago called Void Runners, where people were put in strange situations that they HAD to think their ways out of. I can see the draw, and I can easily imagine one conversation in the Palladium offices as something like this:

"Aww, you're telling me a Demon is responsible for this? One thing I hate about Palladium Vampires is the Vampire Intelligence. What does a giant amoeba with tentacles and fangs have to do with bloodsuckers? It would be so much better without that..."

Some would agree. Others wouldn't. Okay, I admit that the lack of other supernatural aspects can make it more like a traditional horror movie. And I can also see from a point of view that in Palladium's system, it can be easier to make a game book with less, and people can add more to it if they want rather than giving people more options, and having people remove what they don't want from it. But to me, it's like seeing a car with all kinds of promised features coming standard, only to see the finished product as stock, with some options either coming later or discontinued.

But here's another point. Before the game book came out, people were taking parts from another, not so successful RPG book called Systems Failure. The Militia, Splatterpunks, Survivalist and others are fantascic for this game setting! They compliment it well, and in a time where money might not mean as much, SF has a great barter system in place. This is missing from DR. So I recommend...ahh, I see what you're doing!

Okay, I think the Dead Reign book is okay. For those of you that don't like the supernatural, congratulations. Without another Palladium book, you have a game world that there is little to no hope of doing anything more than survival. Humanity will most likely never go back to the way it was. All you'll ever do is kill to survive, more than likely any answers you hope to find as to how this happened, why or how to fix the world will be nothing more than dead ends. Once you run out of ammo, you'll have no definitive way of fighting off a large group of the walking dead, and will probably end up as one yourself. Abandon all hope, ye who play only with this book. Have a nice existence, I can't call it a life, and have a spare character or two written up. Will you play as a gun toting soldier or homeless guy this time?

But as I said, I see a pattern here. Systems Failure has decent stuff easily thrown in, as well as Beyond the Supernatural. Plus, there's talk of a sourcebook for DR. Will I buy it? Of course, but Palladium's the only system I play any more, and I collect their books like an old woman collects cats. Only mine are less messy. So for people that may have never played anything from PB, it might be a gateway game. For those who honestly expected more, or want to see more, Dead Reign makes people feel to get the most potential out of it, buy more Palladium Books' products. Which wouldn't be so bad if it didn't come off like a ploy to do so.

I truly, truly hope that PB does make a DR sourcebook to compliment this one, giving more answers and potential for the world as well as what was originally implied, if not promised. Whoever comes up with a large group combat system and it sees print, I guarantee that it will sell out like Rifter 21 did! It's a necessity, and I REALLY want to see more of Brulyx, his minions, any word how he ties into the Minion Wars series, and overall more of what Josh Hilden and Joshua Sanford wrote about in Rifter 40. Will I keep Dead Reign? Of course! Ask for it in a Grab Bag along with Systems Failure, the original Beyond the Supernatural, and Nightbane Book 4: Shadows of Light. Oh wait, that's gonna be my order...But is it worth full price? Only if you want a bare bones, no magic potential game that's less than anticipated by most here on this forum. In the meantime, I will use DR as a sourcebook for Rifter 40. Oh Josh, Joshua, this is a little bland. Could one of you pass me the salt and Dave's Insanity sauce? This tastes a little bland to me...

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:53 pm

The review makes me feel fine. The book, in it's current incarnation is what I wanted from it.

When I read rifter 40, I did indeed have that reaction.

"Aww, you're telling me a Demon is responsible for this? One thing I hate about Palladium Vampires is the Vampire Intelligence. What does a giant amoeba with tentacles and fangs have to do with bloodsuckers? It would be so much better without that..."

That was almost point on the reaction I had. Though I think mine was "Why does everything in Palladium have to be run by a super powerful unknowable unbeatable blob in another dimension trying to get here. I mean if you're a superpowerful blob thing, what's so great about earth?"

And agreeing, 'oh it's a magic multidimensional evil unknowable thing (( be it sploogorith or vamp intelligence or unknowable demon' is cool the first time.. and the second, but after that yeah it gets old. So knowing my survival horror Zombie game had yet another extradimensional critter trying to get to earth took away from it. I was going to have to modify my game to take that out.

But... for good or ill. Kevin already did so.

So this book sounds like what I wanted... and took out what I didn't want. Which to me is a good thing.

This is NOT NOT NOT To say the original writer did a bad job. Or that his book sucked. I'm sure it didn't. But it wasn't the game __I___ wanted. The game actually being put out was.

Now.. if they do a DR suppliment, they could do a campaign setting. 'Brulyx the demon lord' campaign setting, where they take the base DR book and go "Ok here's a fully fleshed out POSSIBLE SETTING for your DR game" and that way...

We'd have the good base book.. and for those that want the Brulyx setting, you could get that too, and everyone's happy. It need not be a huge 225 page book either. You could very likely use the DR base book and then a smaller 180 or 120 or even 90 page splat with just the alterations. And again... people would be happy, and being a smaller book and not $23+shipping, people would buy it too. If they WANT the Brulyx stuff it's what they're waiting for and even people like me who like it the way it is, will go "Hurm... $12 or $16 for an alternate campaign setting.. Ok I'll pick it up." and you get double sales.

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:08 pm

I am disapointed in the thinkers, i was looking forward to camps of humans bread for food. I was looking forward to walking into a zombie ambush. I was looking forward to talking to the guy who just outsmarted me before i am eaten....... Perhaps a sourcebook can save this game?

I am happy about the No magic!!!!
I am happy about the No psionics!!!
I am happy about not knowing the cause!!!
Though I expect to find out in future sourcebooks.

I am not happy about the thinkers..... :shock:

Unread post by **AlexM** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:34 pm

It can be arranged to have Thinkers and Mock Zombies outsmart you before you get eaten. Zombie ambushes? Pretty common if you're not careful. It depends on the Game Master.

Alex Marciniszyn

Shotgun Jolly · Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:43 pm

Thanks DtMK!

I can say that I liked your upfront review.

And from what you wrote. I still feel I am going to get the game, and I think I may even enjoy it more. Although I liked what was said in the Rifter and the flavor of the zombies. I loved the idea of the Zombies feeding of the PPE of the survivors. Its not just the flesh but the PPE that draws them.

I also like the idea that its not set in stone as to why the zombie outbreak happened. Which gives more options to the GM to do as he pleases.

Also, from what you said about the flavor being much like those of the Zombie Survival Guide and World War Z, both of which I have read. Is a really nice boon for me.

The Lack of a major "supernatural" power being involved to a "hint" of one, I feel is a good move. As once again, the GM, being me can add or remove as much of that angle I want to with out going outside the scope of the book.

Also, I am really hoping to use the OCCs in Dead Reign and the Zombies itself in my Chaos Earth adventures. That way, I can have a massive Plague errupt around the same time the rifts opened. Now, talk about a tough spot to be!

Yeah.. I am back to looking forward to this book. Mind you, as I said before.. the lack of the large scale combat rules are kinda sad. But, maybe that could be something we can get from the cutting room floor as a Free PDF download or something?

Bring on the Zeds!

Once again, thanks DtMK!

[sub]PS: When I get the book, I will also review it and hope it meassures out to my expections.[/sub]

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:46 pm

I'm still probably going to get DR. Though DtMK makes it less so. One of the things I have always disliked about PB products is when they introduce a great cool concept and leave it undefined. Did we really need 5 theories on why the zombies are attacking and undefined to boot. I'm also very dissapointed at what Kevin did to the Thinkers. I just hope the upcomong DR sourcebook if it see the light of day which is never a guarantee adds more to the game.

One thing they could do if they wanted to is tie the game into Rifts in the upcoming sourcebook. I remember seeing a reference to the Zombie Wars? in one of the Rifts books. It would be interesting to see how one can incorporate the game into Rifts.

DtMK · Unread post by **DtMK** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:29 am

Thanks for the input everyone, keep it coming. To be honest, with the censoring and sanctioning of people on this board lately, I honestly wondered if when I got home from running my DR game with friends, would this thread still be up? Would my account still be active, or would I be suspended or banned for telling my opinion? I didn't write this to be mean. I didn't do it out of malice, I put in my opinion of the product. So far, it seems that people who don't like the magic and psi have a game they can love, others can pick and choose, while others still await what they want, or have to make it for their own games themselves.

It seems like people are deciding on their own what they want, like and dislike. I only hope the powers that be at Palladium take this into account for future games and materials. Fingers crossed.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:21 am

DtMK wrote:Thanks for the input everyone, keep it coming. To be honest, with the censoring and sanctioning of people on this board lately, I honestly wondered if when I got home from running my DR game with friends, would this thread still be up? Would my account still be active, or would I be suspended or banned for telling my opinion? I didn't write this to be mean. I didn't do it out of malice, I put in my opinion of the product. So far, it seems that people who don't like the magic and psi have a game they can love, others can pick and choose, while others still await what they want, or have to make it for their own games themselves.

Don't apologize for writing an honest and heartfelt review. As long as your review is civil and follows the board rules there is no real reason for them to remove it. None. I prefer your review and others similiar than the usual "it's the greatest thing since sliced bread" reviews. As those usually tell you nothing about the game really.

DtMK wrote:It seems like people are deciding on their own what they want, like and dislike. I only hope the powers that be at Palladium take this into account for future games and materials. Fingers crossed.

One can hope but I would no hold my breath on that at all.

Unread post by **NMI** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:40 am

DtMK wrote:To be honest, with the censoring and sanctioning of people on this board lately, I honestly wondered if when I got home from running my DR game with friends, would this thread still be up? Would my account still be active, or would I be suspended or banned for telling my opinion?

You werent rude or nasty in your review.

DtMK · Unread post by **DtMK** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:48 am

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:
DtMK wrote:To be honest, with the censoring and sanctioning of people on this board lately, I honestly wondered if when I got home from running my DR game with friends, would this thread still be up? Would my account still be active, or would I be suspended or banned for telling my opinion?
You werent rude or nasty in your review.

Thanks Sureshot and NMI. Honestly, I was starting to wonder. Other people speaking their thoughts here getting sanctioned lately, my own 'Would Obama be a Thinker?' thread erased, I honestly wasn't sure what would happen. I wrote my review with the people of the board in mind. I'm glad that a well written review can still be seen here. Believe me, I can unleash verbal venom when I want to. I wanted to tell my opinion, and some people like the book, others don't. The forum CAN be civil. Who knew?

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:04 am

With the exception of the thinkers I am happy with the book as it is laid out. Personally i will make the thinkers a little smarter than what is laid out in the book. Other than that I am really excited about this release. I am a huge fan of the Zombie genre and am looking forward to eating brainz when I am turned.

Braden Campbell · Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:23 am

Greyaxe wrote:With the exception of the thinkers I am happy with the book as it is laid out. Personally i will make the thinkers a little smarter than what is laid out in the book. Other than that I am really excited about this release. I am a huge fan of the Zombie genre and am looking forward to eating brainz when I am turned.

Will we be putting MERP on hold in the New Year as we play a Zombie game for a bit, then?

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:29 am

Braden Campbell wrote:
Greyaxe wrote:With the exception of the thinkers I am happy with the book as it is laid out. Personally i will make the thinkers a little smarter than what is laid out in the book. Other than that I am really excited about this release. I am a huge fan of the Zombie genre and am looking forward to eating brainz when I am turned.

Will we be putting MERP on hold in the New Year as we play a Zombie game for a bit, then?

That may be a possibility, ill have to get my copy of Dead Reign first of course but Christmas is comming.... And so are the Zombies.

Nightbreed · Unread post by **Nightbreed** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:08 pm

Thanks DtMK for the review. Sadly it confirms what i thought would happen. They took all the cool stuff and made it another bland zombie game. See in the Rifter #40 the concept that magic and the supernatural was the reason this all happened was what set this game apart from regular same old zombie games that happen either by unknown means or some scientist being an idiot and releasing a plague (intentionally or not) and everything goes swirling down the flusher civilization wise.

Not to thrilled on how the thinkers got dumbed down or the fact that how the world was affected by continent was not listed. But i'm not at all worried. I'm still getting the book but will be running things mostly from the original script and i'll just add things along the way.

In my game the current bad guy is a military head of the base in Texas who is also a dabbler in necromancy and when the wave happens he gets a slight magical boost and now has artifacts that work for him and his version of a death cult. I even had a few thinkers thrown in there and i used one of them as a sniper with a .50 cal. It was fun.

As always when it comes to Palladium, it's just up to the GM how he/she wants to run their game, some people don't like/want magic and the supernatural in their games and others like myself do, (IMHO it adds a unique flavor to the bland ordinary stuff)some even find other games to blend them in. I've gotten some real good ideas through the boards here and fully intend to use them. Again DtMK, thanks for the honest review. I'll be getting mine this week if they have it when i pick my weekly comic fix.

Shotgun Jolly · Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:48 pm

Braden Campbell wrote:
Will we be putting MERP on hold in the New Year as we play a Zombie game for a bit, then?

MERP, As in Middle Earth Role Playing?.. I didnt think anyone still played that.

Tricky · Unread post by **Tricky** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:54 pm

DTMK's review and opinions mirror my own. I liked everything as it was set out in R#40, and was looking forward to survivors fighting zombies, cultists and bandits with a possible end goal of stopping the zombies.

And I thought the Thinkers in R#40 were a thing of true genius: Smart zombies that can control other zombies, have access to their memories and skills, and still want to eat you. On the original Dead Reign board, I tossed out 3 possible uses for this kinda character: a PPE Junkie, an undead Guardian Angel (at least how he sees it), and a self proclaimed Death Lord (wouldn't it really be ironic if Brulyx decided that one crazy zombie was a better emissary then the cult...?). Of course, I can still spring them on unsuspecting players, but now they seem forced, and abberations to the core rules.

I like DR the book, don't get me wrong. But it's not the book I thought it would be. I still has alot of the stuff I like from a PB game. Ok, psionics are gone and magic, not always my fave, is gone too. But, that does create a more realistic (ain't it funny to say that about a zombie game?) world, free of people getting psychic flashes of zombies in a lock room, or casting a spell to prevent a person from dying.
Of course, I wrote a little zombie fiction where the virus created zombies and gave people superpowers, but hey, I'm a REAL GEEK. :mrgreen:

But, what I DO like to see is a free exchange of ideas, and tolerance of differing opinions.

Kinda refreshing on the net, wouldn't you agree? :Angel:

bradshaw · Unread post by **bradshaw** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:53 pm

Dtmk, On behalf the Artists of DR Thank you for your kind words in your review. -N

DtMK · Unread post by **DtMK** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:00 pm

bradshaw wrote:Dtmk, On behalf the Artists of DR Thank you for your kind words in your review. -N

No man, thank YOU and everyone that contributed! Sheesh, there are some seriously twisted monsters in there, and I LOVE them! Your art is one of the best parts of the book, IMHO.

Prince Artemis · Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:38 pm

And keep in mind, for those out their that want magic and psi, the book is compatable with BTS, so feel free. Kevin said as much in the last pod cast. Just because it isn't canon doesn't mean you can't do it.

Unread post by **NMI** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:08 pm

Because I am a nice guy

, I am unlocking this thread for others to input their reviews and whatnot.
The trolling type comments, the insinuating comments, the destructive comments have been removed.

DtMK · Unread post by **DtMK** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:18 pm

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Because I am a nice guy , I am unlocking this thread for others to input their reviews and whatnot.
The trolling type comments, the insinuating comments, the destructive comments have been removed.

Thanks NMI, I didn't know until now that this thread WAS locked. In any case, I'm all for honesty and constructive criticism, and I'm honestly trying to keep things civil.

Jason Richards · Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:30 pm

Late to this party, but I don't understand why people feel that magic and/or psionics has a place in this particular world. I don't think that it would fit at all. In a genre about human survival versus zombies, I don't know that supernatural powers for humans is necessary, or even desirable, to the setting.

Shotgun Jolly · Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:30 pm

to carry on this subject.. I've taken a post from another thread and added it here..to keep up the discussion here
viewtopic.php?f=77&t=97743

DtMK wrote:
And yes, the zombies not only feed on P.P.E., but they expanded on the zombie's senses. They talk about how even a zombie with no eyes and empty sockets can still sense P.P.E., and how eerie it is to have an eyeless zombie still coming after you. A nice touch, and once again a nod to Max Brooks IMHO.

That is awesome!.. Yeah, I liked that touch.

Now, the Nod to Max Brooks. I know one thing. Its hard to kinda look at any zombies tale now, with out it being influenced by the ZSG or WWZ. Anyone who sits down and writes a book like those, the survival guide in general. Anything you hear, see, or read now will be some what judged by what you have read on that book. He solidfied something that has been growing for the last 20 -30 years.

To help prove my point. You watch any zombie movie that came out in the last say 5 years. Look for situations in the movie and then try and find that scenario in the ZSG. Good Chance its there... Sure I find myself now, yelling at the screen sometimes saying.. "THIS IS COVERED IN THE GUIDE!!! What the heck are you thinking!!!!!"

Sure, we may find some things similar, thats only because I feel Max Brooks did a bang up job on making something that was just plain fantasy, into something that could and sound like its real..

Like Max Brooks. I dont l like fast zombies.. so these runners got me all tore up. Zombies are bad enough as it is.. Fast zombies, thats just plain evil.. Fast Zombies are too scary to think about! *shudder*

kevarin · Unread post by **kevarin** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:09 am

just to ask a silly question but if the zombies feed off PPE
and can see or feel it then wouldn't any person that had
a high PPE level for magic be like a beacon ringing the dinner bell
to them or at the least would draw every zombie for a good ways to
him ? haven't got the book yet and missed the rifter with
the first draft so don't know if there drawn to high ISP but a
mage could get you in to trouble really quick and keep you fighting
more than you would without one

MrMom · Unread post by **MrMom** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:37 am

I would think that a battle of wills between a zombie using psionics and a live person useing psionics would have been neat. A battle between the two right in the middle of a battle with the rest of the group fighting off the zombies or at least keeping them off your Psionics character would be awsome.

Nightbreed · Unread post by **Nightbreed** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:53 am

Ninjabunny wrote:
Jason Richards wrote:Late to this party, but I don't understand why people feel that magic and/or psionics has a place in this particular world. I don't think that it would fit at all. In a genre about human survival versus zombies, I don't know that supernatural powers for humans is necessary, or even desirable, to the setting.

Because it was a very fun and interesting, it made it feel more like a Pally based Game. I'm not saying let's have super humans, but a few spells and psionics sounded fun to me. Otherwise this is just another Zombie game like AHMD by Edin studios.

Good to know that someone agrees with me on the point that Magic makes it not be "just another zombie game."

so I guess I had just better bring out my nightbane books and use their magic system.

Ah, you beat me to it, i was going to suggest and do just that!

Greyaxe · Unread post by **Greyaxe** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:36 am

Jason Richards wrote:Late to this party, but I don't understand why people feel that magic and/or psionics has a place in this particular world. I don't think that it would fit at all. In a genre about human survival versus zombies, I don't know that supernatural powers for humans is necessary, or even desirable, to the setting.

I agree as I have stated ad nausium, i love the new setting with no magic or psionics. It makes the human survivors real heroes, makes simple things like bringing a toy bear to a little child a genuine act of human kindness and bravery. You have to go back into the nest of evil to get it alone and (from a super hero magic psionic using perspective) naked with only a few feeble weapons and your courage to get you through the day.

I think the concepts I have heard for Dead Reign are perfect.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 · Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:40 pm

Jason Richards wrote:Late to this party, but I don't understand why people feel that magic and/or psionics has a place in this particular world. I don't think that it would fit at all. In a genre about human survival versus zombies, I don't know that supernatural powers for humans is necessary, or even desirable, to the setting.

it's because there are far better games out there that have the "typical" take on zombies. The stuff presented in Rifter #40 defined Palladiums take on the genre and flipped it on its ear.

Nothing new to see here.

Maybe PB will wise up and release all of Josh's stuff in Rifters, so we can enjoy a new take on a done to death concept.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:31 pm

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:it's because there are far better games out there that have the "typical" take on zombies. The stuff presented in Rifter #40 defined Palladiums take on the genre and flipped it on its ear.

Nothing new to see here.

Maybe PB will wise up and release all of Josh's stuff in Rifters, so we can enjoy a new take on a done to death concept.

Pretty much agree. I really liked what I saw in Rifter 40. DR just seems like every other zombie rpg on the market. I'm still going to get it yet it's dropped from the must have to get if nothing better is around category.

dark brandon · Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:22 pm

No offense to the original writers, but the stuff in rifter 40 didn't have me thrilled at all. I won't go into all the reasons why, if the writers are curious, I'll share with them but I really wasn't looking forward to a zombie game.

The zombie craze of the movies has come and gone, and this seems like a "Too late" for something that could have taken hold during the zombie movie craze that was a few years ago.

Anyways, I'd have to look at DR before I pass judgment, but if things have been changed from the original rifter 40, I'm willing to give it a thumb-through. Originally, I was just gonna let this book pass on into oblivion.

Steeler49er · Unread post by **Steeler49er** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:28 am

Problem with your consept 'Dark-B' is, If people make an Zombie RPG with your formula, It'll end up being LESS than 1 Paragraph in size...

See Zombies come, See zombies eat flesh, See Zombies take over the world....
The End!

There, I just wrote your "Classic Zombie Story"!

And as we all know, you could do all That by just making a it a campain, instead of a book.

dark brandon · Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:53 am

. wrote:Problem with your consept 'Dark-B' is, If people make an Zombie RPG with your formula, It'll end up being LESS than 1 Paragraph in size...

See Zombies come, See zombies eat flesh, See Zombies take over the world....
The End!

There, I just wrote your "Classic Zombie Story"!

And as we all know, you could do all That by just making a it a campain, instead of a book.

Were you responding to me? If so...what formula did i present?

The Galactus Kid · Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:55 am

dark brandon wrote:No offense to the original writers, but the stuff in rifter 40 didn't have me thrilled at all. I won't go into all the reasons why, if the writers are curious, I'll share with them but I really wasn't looking forward to a zombie game.

The zombie craze of the movies has come and gone, and this seems like a "Too late" for something that could have taken hold during the zombie movie craze that was a few years ago.

Anyways, I'd have to look at DR before I pass judgment, but if things have been changed from the original rifter 40, I'm willing to give it a thumb-through. Originally, I was just gonna let this book pass on into oblivion.

Background information - Dark Brandon is in my gaming group and we discuss this stuff A LOT.

I agree, to an extent. I was eager for a Zombie game, mainly because I know that Taylor White will be an awesome Zombie GM. Much like with any game, if there was something in the book that was unbalancing, cheesy, or that he didn't like, I knew that he wold change it and the story would be awesome.

DtMK · Unread post by **DtMK** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:14 am

My review thread's reached 2 pages! WOOHOO!

The one thing I like about Palladium is the interchangeability factor for what the GM and players want to do with a campaign. I'm glad that people like the no magic aspect and will buy the book for that reason. One of my greatest beefs with this was all that was implied from Rifter #40, then altered or removed for the final release. I just don't like getting hyped up about a product only to have the parts that set it apart taken out before release. A Pre-Atlantean civilization and ruins discovered that stopped Brulyx, the Demon Lord's place in the Minion Wars books, it was zombies flavored with other parts of the Megaverse. And of course, no large group combat.

When such things that had fans anticipating it only to be taken out, it's going to leave a bad taste in the mouths of fans that just last year and months ago were fighting to keep this company from going under from the Crisis of Treachery. I love this game system and company, but I hate when anticipated items of interest are deleted or canceled without any real warning. Yes, people who don't like the magic and psionic parts have their game now. But for those anticipating more? Now I have to make my own stats for such monsters, which will be frightening. But I really would have liked to see the Josh-squared's takes and stats on these NPC's. When waiting for one book and getting another, I'll admit it, I felt cheated. And that sucks when something you care about like this company makes you feel that way. Does anyone else here agree with me on this? And try to be civil in your responses, I'd rather not see this thread get locked again.

dark brandon · Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:24 am

DtMK wrote:My review thread's reached 2 pages! WOOHOO!
When waiting for one book and getting another, I'll admit it, I felt cheated. And that sucks when something you care about like this company makes you feel that way. Does anyone else here agree with me on this? And try to be civil in your responses, I'd rather not see this thread get locked again.

You feel cheated, probably because of the emotional investment you have in the game, and that's just really too much to invest in something you haven't seen yet. Be disappointed with the game, not the company. Take some solace in that maybe, just maybe K knows what he's doing, and by changing what he changed, maybe it saved you from an even bigger disappointment. You feel cheated, but why don't you feel protected and loved? There are two ways to view things...well, actually 3. My way of viewing them...don't get emotionally involved with any of the books till you have them in your hand. Simply, don't care.

Continuing on, personally, as much as other games have been hyped, this wasn't hyped any more or less than any other game released. In fact, I think RUE and BTS got bigger more "love" in the hype category than anything since madhaven (and madhaven got the hype cause you had me and Galactis hyping it, and we have no lives. Especially Galactis kid. Seriously...I feel bad for the guy.)

dark brandon · Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:34 am

Citizen Lazlo wrote:To be fair NONE of you know how the original stands against Kevin's version.

And I stand behind my version.

Just to be fair, I wasn't saying yours was better or worse, simply giving them another way to look at the situation and why I stipulated "maybe".

The Galactus Kid · Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:44 am

dark brandon wrote:
DtMK wrote:My review thread's reached 2 pages! WOOHOO!
When waiting for one book and getting another, I'll admit it, I felt cheated. And that sucks when something you care about like this company makes you feel that way. Does anyone else here agree with me on this? And try to be civil in your responses, I'd rather not see this thread get locked again.

Continuing on, personally, as much as other games have been hyped, this wasn't hyped any more or less than any other game released. In fact, I think RUE and BTS got bigger more "love" in the hype category than anything since madhaven (and madhaven got the hype cause you had me and Galactis hyping it, and we have no lives. Especially Galactis kid. Seriously...I feel bad for the guy.)

He's totally got a point here. I don't have a life.

DtMK · Unread post by **DtMK** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:57 am

True, I don't know how the original stacks against Kevin's version. But I would like to stand by the original, as well as see it in print as well. From what I saw in Rifter #40, that's what I anticipated for the full release, only further expanded upon.

As far as getting emotionally vested into a game, getting together with friends for gaming is one of the highlights of my week. The campaign I'm running has introduced old and new players, as well as gaming in the house of one of the players that walked away from Palladium, and came back to let me run my DR Beta game. I can't help but care and become excited. I was the same for Madhaven, and loved getting it! Not only because of the setting, but also how it touched upon the Order of the White Rose, mentioned in another book. That same anticipation for seeing a connection to a larger, richer overall vision is part of what drew me in for DR.

Is it true that I don't know everything that happened behind the scenes? Yes. Do I feel loved by the game or company? Uh-uh. If I didn't care, if I didn't invest a part of my emotion and imagination to Palladium, then I wouldn't have cared about pre-ordering the book, I could just wait until it was on Ebay for half price or less when someone else disappointed with the book sold it from their collection. I know I can't be the only one that feels this way. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have written the review, or helped to buy product to keep the company going. So yes, I can get emotionally attached to things that stimulate my imagination and help to generate good times with friends. I feel like I received less than what was eluded to, and that is a make or break point for consumers interested in this book from its original mention in Rifter #40. I've fought in my community to keep Palladium games in the stores, to run campaigns in their sections between people playing Hero Clix and D&D. I've fought for the game system and company in my area, helped and am helping to promote it. So when one product that generates buzz suddenly shifts direction, I can't help but feel like the guy hyping a road trip to an interesting and horrifically fun journey looks at the bus missing a turn and going 'Huh!??' Since I'm the one helping to tell people about it, I can't help but feel the stares in my direction when it doesn't live up to the hype. And not all hype that I generate either.

dark brandon · Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:22 pm

DtMK wrote:True, I don't know how the original stacks against Kevin's version. But I would like to stand by the original, as well as see it in print as well. From what I saw in Rifter #40, that's what I anticipated for the full release, only further expanded upon.

This is the most important aspect. You only saw a small aspect of the game, yet you wanna stand by it? Have you any reason to doubt K judgment in regards to things like this? Have you ever seen any manuscript that was turned in and seen what he turned out and saw the difference to know if Kevin knows what he's doing or not? Do you have anything to base this feeling of being cheated you have on beside an excerpt from rifter 40?

I would like to stand by the original, but not without having seen it first, all of it. Not just an except. If for whatever reason K felt this game wasn't workable I wouldn't want to see it in print. That's just a waste of money.

I'm probably not going to change how you feel about the situation, that's fine. But do think that you're taking a lot away from something you knew little about in the first place. If anything, let this be a lesson in not judging a book until you have it in your hands.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 · Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:45 pm

dark brandon wrote:This is the most important aspect. You only saw a small aspect of the game, yet you wanna stand by it? Have you any reason to doubt K judgment in regards to things like this?

well apparently he thought it the bees knees for months and months, until you know he actually read it 2 months ago. So was he lying to us then, all those months ago when he thought it an exceptional product? Was there a question of trust you were talking about?

Have you ever seen any manuscript that was turned in and seen what he turned out and saw the difference to know if Kevin knows what he's doing or not?

you mean like MDC-Kangaroos?

Do you have anything to base this feeling of being cheated you have on beside an excerpt from rifter 40?

why would he need anything else? That premise was pretty well laid out, and the actual book delivered none of it.

I would like to stand by the original, but not without having seen it first, all of it. Not just an except. If for whatever reason K felt this game wasn't workable I wouldn't want to see it in print. That's just a waste of money.

so he's infallable in your eyes then? There was nothing in Madhaven that didn't make it in, or was perhaps added that you felt unnecessary to your vision of the product?

I'm probably not going to change how you feel about the situation, that's fine. But do think that you're taking a lot away from something you knew little about in the first place. If anything, let this be a lesson in not judging a book until you have it in your hands.

unfortunately there was a lot of hype for this book; from the excerpt in the Rifter, from Josh Hilden and mainly from Kevin himself. I'll give Kevin one thing, he's a good salesmen, unfortunately it seems he does it in the way of "Let's Make a Deal!" except even he doesn't know what is in the box.

glitterboy2098 · Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:58 pm

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
Have you ever seen any manuscript that was turned in and seen what he turned out and saw the difference to know if Kevin knows what he's doing or not?

you mean like MDC-Kangaroos?

the saber-toothed carnivorous kangaroos were discovered by palentologists a couple of years ago.

same for the giant wombat.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. "
-Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5

cyber-yukongil v2.5 · Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:04 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:
cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
Have you ever seen any manuscript that was turned in and seen what he turned out and saw the difference to know if Kevin knows what he's doing or not?

you mean like MDC-Kangaroos?

the saber-toothed carnivorous kangaroos were discovered by palentologists a couple of years ago.

same for the giant wombat.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. "
-Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5

you know one place you won't find it though? The original manuscript. You know why? Cause when you read that section you get a cheesy sinking feeling in your stomach of trite hackneyed writing, which the original writer left out.

The Galactus Kid · Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:08 pm

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
dark brandon wrote:This is the most important aspect. You only saw a small aspect of the game, yet you wanna stand by it? Have you any reason to doubt K judgment in regards to things like this?

well apparently he thought it the bees knees for months and months, until you know he actually read it 2 months ago. So was he lying to us then, all those months ago when he thought it an exceptional product? Was there a question of trust you were talking about?

He probably thought it was a good premise (which it was) that needed to be expanded upon. I don't see how being excited about it would be lying.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
Have you ever seen any manuscript that was turned in and seen what he turned out and saw the difference to know if Kevin knows what he's doing or not?

you mean like MDC-Kangaroos?

I don't see the problem with MDC kangaroos in a world where Floopers, shapers, Bubble makers, phoenexi, spugorth, vampires, robots, and zombies all exist.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
Do you have anything to base this feeling of being cheated you have on beside an excerpt from rifter 40?

why would he need anything else? That premise was pretty well laid out, and the actual book delivered none of it.

Actually, the book delivered Zombies and the explaination in Rifter 40 as ONE potential cause. I would say that the book actually went above and beyond. Heck, then just use other Palladium products as sourcebooks if you want. Hell, people have been doing it with Rifts for years so I don't see why there is the fit now.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
I would like to stand by the original, but not without having seen it first, all of it. Not just an except. If for whatever reason K felt this game wasn't workable I wouldn't want to see it in print. That's just a waste of money.

so he's infallable in your eyes then? There was nothing in Madhaven that didn't make it in, or was perhaps added that you felt unnecessary to your vision of the product?

1. Dark Brandon didn't write Madhaven. Taylor White and I did. Dark Brandon was a play tester, and a great idea man to bounce ideas off of. Along with Taylor and I, he's the closest thing to an authority on that book. Just a clarification.
2. There was stuff added to madhaven. Originally there was only one type of mutant, but they were added to and expanded. Did they change our vision? yes. But thats what happens when you're a freelancer for any company. You're working within the realms of anothers vision and have to be flexible.
3. There was also stuff taken out. There were a few more classes of knights and some more equipment along with some more detail about the knights, the area, and other groups in the region. Most of this can be found in the OFFICIAL MATERIAL in Rifter #36. Some of it was cut for various reasons, which is Kevins right, and I feel the product is better for it. Combining Madhaven and Rifter #36 would be great and would be a great "revised" edition in the future. hahaha.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
I'm probably not going to change how you feel about the situation, that's fine. But do think that you're taking a lot away from something you knew little about in the first place. If anything, let this be a lesson in not judging a book until you have it in your hands.

unfortunately there was a lot of hype for this book; from the excerpt in the Rifter, from Josh Hilden and mainly from Kevin himself. I'll give Kevin one thing, he's a good salesmen, unfortunately it seems he does it in the way of "Let's Make a Deal!" except even he doesn't know what is in the box.

I disagree. I feel that I'll be getting everything I want out of this book. kevin cut the stuff out that I wouldn't have used anyway. hahaha. To each their own.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 · Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:14 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
1. Dark Brandon didn't write Madhaven. Taylor White and I did. Dark Brandon was a play tester, and a great idea man to bounce ideas off of. Along with Taylor and I, he's the closest thing to an authority on that book. Just a clarification.

bah! You all look alike to me

The Galactus Kid · Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:15 pm

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
Have you ever seen any manuscript that was turned in and seen what he turned out and saw the difference to know if Kevin knows what he's doing or not?

you mean like MDC-Kangaroos?

the saber-toothed carnivorous kangaroos were discovered by palentologists a couple of years ago.

same for the giant wombat.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. "
-Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5

you know one place you won't find it though? The original manuscript. You know why? Cause when you read that section you get a cheesy sinking feeling in your stomach of trite hackneyed writing, which the original writer left out.

Wow. I can see you feel strongly about this. I happen to like that almost that entire book and adjust things to my game. I've never got that cheesy sinking feeling. I don't see why people find this hard to do. If you don't like something, don't use it. I also wonder how many people LOVE certain elements of the game that were also not in original manuscripts.

This is one of those times that I encourage people to write. If you think you can do it better, then by all means, go ahead. many people love to complain but don't want to offer a solution. Thats what Taylor and I did with Triax 2. There were a lot of unanswered questions but instead of complaining on the internet where we had no influence on the outcome, we decided to write a book to answer them. I encourage many people to do be proactive and do the same.

Approach the situation with a thick skin because in any company, your work will be changed and edited.

The Galactus Kid · Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:16 pm

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
1. Dark Brandon didn't write Madhaven. Taylor White and I did. Dark Brandon was a play tester, and a great idea man to bounce ideas off of. Along with Taylor and I, he's the closest thing to an authority on that book. Just a clarification.

bah! You all look alike to me

Oh man, if you only knew. hahaha. Come to the open house and meet us so you can laugh at how Brandon and Dark Brandon are TOTALLY different. :shock:

Todd Yoho · Unread post by **Todd Yoho** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:35 pm

Packrat wrote:You've got a problem with MDC Kangaroos? Then the real world must blow you away with things like the duck-billed platypus.

I mean, c'mon. Who could dream up a cross between a duck, a beaver, and a snake. A mammal that lays eggs and has a poisonous bite?

Kevin Smith wrote:So please before you think about hurting someone over this trifle of a film, remember: even God has a sense of humor. Just look at the Platypus. Thank you and enjoy the show.

P.S. We sincerely apologize to all Platypus enthusiasts out there who are offended by that thoughtless comment about Platypi. We at View Askew respect the noble Platypus, and it is not our intention to slight these stupid creatures in any way. Thank you again and enjoy the show.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 · Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:00 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
1. Dark Brandon didn't write Madhaven. Taylor White and I did. Dark Brandon was a play tester, and a great idea man to bounce ideas off of. Along with Taylor and I, he's the closest thing to an authority on that book. Just a clarification.

bah! You all look alike to me

Oh man, if you only knew. hahaha. Come to the open house and meet us so you can laugh at how Brandon and Dark Brandon are TOTALLY different.

not on the internet they don't

RoadWarriorFWaNK · Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:02 pm

Citizen Lazlo wrote:To be fair NONE of you know how the original stands against Kevin's version.

Shouldn't this be the end of all arguments on Dead Reign?

The Galactus Kid · Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:03 pm

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:
Citizen Lazlo wrote:To be fair NONE of you know how the original stands against Kevin's version.

Shouldn't this be the end of all arguments on Dead Reign?

You would think... :roll: