The Great Firewalker Debate (?)

[mrloucifer]

First off, I don’t want to anyone to this that I am singling out or attacking anyone on this topic. This is more a curiosity of what people think of the Firewalker and their psychic abilities and perhaps a debate will result from it. I respect and enjoy hearing players opinions on how they read the rules of the game.

Secondly, I dig Sir Neil a lot. I’ve valued all his input and all our discussions, especially as we see eye to eye on a lot of things and I look forward to many more thoughts and opinions from him.

On another post S.N. had mentioned something that got me thinking about firewalkers in general and now I’m curious as to how the rest of you think of them and how different normal fire is vs. psychic and magic fire is.

The quote that got my attention was

There’s an entire class designed around killing monsters with fire.

I personally don’t agree with that. I’ve never seen Firewalkers as being designed for killing supernatural beings (that’s more the Ghost Hunter in my opinion.) Based on how I read them they are a form of physical psychic specifically dealing with various aspects of fire.

Their description goes on to say that fire is like their spirit guide- a type of inner force that provides them with insight and visions as well as inspiration and raw power. There is a note In the book that says against supernatural forces they are a force to be reckoned with (especially against being vulnerable to fire) and that many of them see themselves as self styled warriors of the psychic community.

But if you take a good long look at the fire abilities of the fire walker, of the 28 abilities available, only 6-7 of them are combat oriented. There is a lot of “indirect” damage and destruction potential of the fire walker through his abilities, but they offer much more than being a monster slayer in my opinion.

I have an NPC firewalker that shows up when needed (no one in my group has ever played one) and more often than the psychic abilities I tap into are Burnt message, thermal vision, extinguish fire, fire omen, and shed light.

Anyone have any thoughts to share on how they see the firewalker?

There was a second note that got my attention as well. The quote was

If she can kill things with fire, but the rest of the party can't, they're gonna call ******** -- fire is fire. If no one can kill things with fire, the burster might as well play an ordinary person -- at least then she could put P.P.E. points into running away.

This one may be a misunderstanding as he referenced “Burster” and “PPE” instead of “Firewalker” and “ISP”. But in case its not, here are my thoughts on this statement.

There are monsters in the BTS book that have varying degrees of vulnerability to heat and fire. For example, the Boschala takes half damage to heat based attacks while fire does full damage. The Dimensional Ghoul takes ½ damage to heat, but full damage to fire and double damage to psychic and magic fire. The Dybbuk is impervious to heat while psionic and magic fire only do half damage (specifically stating the firewalkers power to Set Supernatural Ablaze is included). And further still we have Grave Ghouls who are impervious to heat but all fire attacks do double damage.

The point here is that some creatures are resistant to fire in varying degree’s, but that’s no reasons to call bull on them. By all account, fire is NOT fire, especially when regular fire won’t affect them while psionic and magical based fire can. These are moments when a Firewalker can shine. And even when a Firewalker faces a being invulnerable to fire, this should be seen as a challenge as opposed to a liability.

My players fight these monsters frequently and I’ve never heard any issues with them calling out the different fire types of fire used on them.

What are your thoughts on regular vs. psionic & magic fire?

[Sir Neil]

You rock, too, taco.

There is a lot of “indirect” damage and destruction potential of the fire walker through his abilities, but they offer much more than being a monster slayer in my opinion.

And they damn well better! BTS has two major aspects, investigation and combat. If you can't contribute to both, don't bother coming to the table. Some classes don't have psionics to handle both aspects, so players have to make up the difference with occupation choice. The firewalker's (burster's!) superior balance means players aren't limited in occupation selection -- yay!

What are your thoughts on regular vs. psionic & magic fire?

"Bad game design that is unfair to players."

Everyone wants players to use in-game logic to solve problems. That's why "metagamer" is the insult it is. If the investigators set a monster on fire with gasoline it either hurts it or it doesn't. Either result is fine -- the players understand this monster's rules.

The problem comes in when the burster is involved. What if they douse two of them in gasoline but light one with the firewalker's fireball and the other with a flamethrower? Why are both monsters on fire, but only one is complaining about it?

This one may be a misunderstanding as he referenced “Burster” and “PPE” instead of “Firewalker” and “ISP”.

Yes. It was an abbreviated version of this sentence: "If no one can kill things with fire, the Firewalker's (burster's ) player might as well have made an Ordinary Person and spent P.P.E. on increasing the speed attribute -- at least then she could successfully run away."

I don't mean to imply that there should be no monster immune to fire. (Although I see I did.) My point was that I think designers should make sure it's necessary for their vision of the monster before they make it invulnerable to an entire category of psionics; fire immunity shouldn't be tossed in willy-nilly.

[mrloucifer]

You rock, too, taco.

Heh heh... he called me taco

BTS has two major aspects, investigation and combat. If you can't contribute to both, don't bother coming to the table. Some classes don't have psionics to handle both aspects, so players have to make up the difference with occupation choice. The firewalker's (burster's!) superior balance means players aren't limited in occupation selection -- yay!

This line of thought may be a personal preference issue and is probrably worth another topic on its own (aka, when I get time I'll start one)

Everyone wants players to use in-game logic to solve problems. That's why "metagamer" is the insult it is. If the investigators set a monster on fire with gasoline it either hurts it or it doesn't. Either result is fine -- the players understand this monster's rules.

The problem comes in when the burster is involved. What if they douse two of them in gasoline but light one with the firewalker's fireball and the other with a flamethrower? Why are both monsters on fire, but only one is complaining about it?

Now see, this is why I mucho dig Sir Neil... the man's got a good melon on his shoulders.

There's no easy answer on this one in my opinion. I agree that it can become an unfair situation that may have look at on a case by case basis and how the GM interperates the rules.

I like your example so I will use it as the basis of how I as a GM would resolve it. I'll use dimension Ghouls as my examples (my group deals with them a lot and loves em). Two DG's are covered in gasoline, the first gets hit with a flamthrower (regular fire) so I would treat that with the normal damage and continual burning damage effect.
But DG #2 gets hit with Psionic fire bolt, in the effort of keeping the action going while trying to keep it real (rules always bog down a game if you let it), I would do the fireball damage as double as it was fueled via ISP and DG suffer x2 psionic/magic fire, but for the continuing burn I would treat as regular fire damage from there on(same fire but new fuel source). If it got hit with another fireball it would be x2 damage again.

Other GM's may have a different (and perhaps better process than this), but that's how I'd roll with that situation.

fire immunity shouldn't be tossed in willy-nilly.

Wurd Taco. In my creature designs I try to keep Psionic/magic fire as effective on a creature even if Ive decided that regular fire is ineffective on them. To be honest I question the monsters that are invulnerable to all fire types as the theory of the psionic characters in BTS evolved to combat the supernatural in the first place. But again thats part of that "rule interperation clause" I suppose.

[Sir Neil]

That's a perfectly reasonable ruling, but that was a normal monster. A ******** monster, or BSM, that is immune to normal fire but vulnerable to psychic fire, is another kettle of fish. Ugly, mercury-filled fish. With three eyes.

The audience watching at home is not going to be happy when fire alternately works and doesn't work for no reason. Say the BSM is covered in gasoline and the burster tosses a cigarette onto the thing. It goes up in flames and doesn't even notice. Then she uses fuel flame and the BSM gets hurt. The burster gets eaten, and the BSM continues to burn, but is no longer reacting to the fire. The audience is going to be pissed because they can't follow the logic.

Normal fire resistance/Psychic fire vulnerablility is fine -- the audience doesn't care exactly how much damage is being done, but they can tell that it is. Normal fire immunity/Psychic fire vulnerablity isn't fine. Like my proverbial ex-wife: it doesn't work, it's never worked, and it never will. And it maxxed out my credit cards while it was doing it!

[ZorValachan]

Yes, I'm taking only parts of the quote, because they are the 'main' issue I will give my opinion on

Normal fire resistance/Psychic fire vulnerablility is fine
Normal fire immunity/Psychic fire vulnerablity isn't fine.

Why is this a problem? If so then wouldn't it apply to other very common things in Palladium books? This logic would also include 'problems' with:

Magic stuff like:
Normal weapon immunity/Magic weapon vulnerability
Normal fire immunity/Magic fire vulnerability (this is seen in more than a few monsters)

Normal weapon immunity/Psychic weapon vulnerability (like psi-sword)

Just think of the 'nonsense' that is Palladium vampires. Fire does nothing at all, yet as soon as one is incapacitated, even normal fire destroys it.

[--Remi Diel--]

Palladium Books > Logic. Very little makes sense.

That's just something GMs have to work around, sometimes on the fly, in every game.

Unless you have a very good, well defined set of house rules...

Sadly, I have no such house rules...yet...

[Sir Neil]

Just think of the 'nonsense' that is Palladium vampires.

I try not to. I try very hard.

If so then wouldn't it apply to other very common things in Palladium books?

Of course. Palladium's games have many problems, that's one reason I don't play them anymore. I think the magical divide is a poor example, though. Anyone can comprehend that adding the adjective "magic" to an item means the rules don't apply the way they do to other things. You can do that without losing your audience.

Magic, like violence, can be the answer to pretty much any question. "Why is the sky blue? Magic." "How does an aircraft carrier float? Magic." Try answering everything with "psionics" -- it doesn't work.

That's just something GMs have to work around, sometimes on the fly, in every game.

Yes, which is a good reason not to invent more illogical things GMs have to work around -- this discussion arose during the creation of new monsters.

[ZorValachan]

I guess I have just always seen the Palladium view of psionics as 1 of the 3 'mystical' forces

1) Magic
2) Divine
3) Psionics

What applies to one applies to all.

PPE starts everything. It is Potential unrefined and raw. Like oil
Grab some raw PPE and cast a spell its magic
Divine powers (even divine spells) work the PPE through a deity first. Kinda like unleaded gasoline it's refined, but loses some of the 'Power' as you can only cast spells your deity knows, cannot 'learn' them like a mage..they are given/granted instead.
Psionics are also refined PPE, but say diesel fuel (ISP). Different end product than magic, but the start of them all is still the same (PPE), so they all are allowed to skirt logic and reason

Also remember what PPE stands for 'Potential PSYCHIC Energy'. It was created in BTS-1 (After palladium's old spells per day from Palladium Fantasy/HU.) Psionics are Psychic, PPE is Psychic, so it 'fits' that they are both 'mystical'

But that is my view/opinion.

[mrloucifer]

Yes, which is a good reason not to invent more illogical things GMs have to work around -- this discussion arose during the creation of new monsters.

And I'm glad were having this discussion, it will probrably impact how I will create things in the future. I swear to everyone that "normal fire doesnt hurt while psyhic fire does" will not be tagged on my creatures.

[Sir Neil]

What applies to one applies to all.

That's a reasonable view to take, and in a well-organized game system one I could support.

*********
The clearest I explanation I can give requires that I use the language of D&D 3e. Consider a normal torch, and the spells fireball, and flame strike. The first does fire damage. The second also does fire damage. The third does half fire and half magic damage, and therefore can hurt fire-immune monsters.

Palladium doesn't do things that cleanly. Instead of explicitly saying that magic or psychic attacks are half and half, it varies from monster to monster. Sometimes a burster will psychically create a ball of normal fire, other times it's half fire and half psionic energy. It's a lousy way of doing things, because players have no way of knowing what their powers will do.

*********

I'm glad that you feel exposure to a Denzien improved your game design skills, taco.

[mrloucifer]

Instead of explicitly saying that magic or psychic attacks are half and half, it varies from monster to monster. Sometimes a burster will psychically create a ball of normal fire, other times it's half fire and half psionic energy. It's a lousy way of doing things, because players have no way of knowing what their powers will do.

There's always house rules

[Tearstone]

I think that a lot of people miss the point along this line of thought. This is Beyond the Supernatural, keyword being Supernatural. Most of the things mentioned, such as Ghouls and Dybbuks and the like aren't from this world. They're barely from this universe. There are certain laws of physics and energy that don't work the same. Also, most of these creatures are gaining their power through other means than being just normal flesh and blood. Most feed off of PPE, fear, or darker and more powerful things like demons, shifters, or other persons of power. Their very presence warps the way that things work, and because they're not entirely flesh and blood but also supernatural energy there are going to be situations where the mundane (ie normal fire) will not hurt them.

In the situation of vampires, as was mentioned earlier, by staking them through the heart you suspend their connection to their Alien Intelligence, and basically break the line while the stake is in there. This is the main reason why the body reverts to a skeleton and can be destroyed by simple fire. Because that's really about all it is. You remove the stake though and you've got a problem. The stake changes the condition of the creature in question.

[mrloucifer]

Nicely put.