Coalition States and the New German Republic: Global War

[AzathothXy]

I'd say NGR. The obvious answer is Tech-wise. But I also say they are not as extreme as the CS. Which translates into better alliances. After SoT they are closer to FQ than the CS is. The New Navy is more likely to ally with them as opposed to the CS. The NGR has made some inroads with the Sovietski.I think ditto with Japan once it is really brought into the world stage. Thats just to cover the 'human' nations. Also the NGR is more tolerant towards D-Bees, compared to the CS, which may garner them some additional support.

[dark brandon]

Probably Triax. As of right now, Triax doesn't have much of a psychic force, so CS would have the upper hand, also CS has better genetics. Though, because of what we've seen, genetics would mean making more dogs, not engineering a virus' or anything like that that makes sense.

Why did it happen? That's a tough one. There just isn't much that would force them into war. They are just too far apart that it war just wouldn't be a viable choice under any circumstance. Simply put, at best they would concider themselves enemies and cut off all ties.

FQ would be caught in the middle. They'd officially drop NGR, simply because of the vicinity of the CS but would probably secretly work with them. This assuming that CS and NGR are violent enemies.

[Lenwen]

So lets say that the CS and the NGR go to war. who would win and more importantly why did it happen. how would this change the face of rifts earth.

Triax , would win ... easily ..(logically speaking )

Larger borg army , Higher Tech ,Higher lvled Soilders , Better transport for support vehicles , Viable Force Field tech , Larger overall standing army ..

The NGR is 100% dedicated to war , The Coalition .. not nearly as much ..

The NGR has been at war for nearly 150 years CONSTANTLY .. thier soilders are going to be dozens of lvls higher on average as compared to the CS military who has maby a couple hundred thousand that are MABY at most lvl 6-9th ...

The NGR has flat out a larger Borg standing army then the CS , Not to mention Juicer augmentation is not as rare as it IS in the Coalition military ...

The NGR has supersonic flight capabilities for a BOMBER type plane .... nuff said .

The Coalition has .... its unlimited resources and its unlimited manpower as per writers fiat ....

It would be a hard fight for ether side .. no doubt .. but undoubtedly ... the CS would win .. simply cause .. thier Kevins baby ..

[Seneca]

This depends on if they are trying to annihilate each other or just bloody a nose? All out warfare against another human power would be difficult to justify to either sides leadership if you ask me.

Triax , would win ... easily ..(logically speaking )

Larger borg army , Higher Tech ,Higher lvled Soilders , Better transport for support vehicles , Viable Force Field tech , Larger overall standing army ..

The NGR is 100% dedicated to war , The Coalition .. not nearly as much ..

The NGR has been at war for nearly 150 years CONSTANTLY .. thier soilders are going to be dozens of lvls higher on average as compared to the CS military who has maby a couple hundred thousand that are MABY at most lvl 6-9th ...

The NGR has flat out a larger Borg standing army then the CS , Not to mention Juicer augmentation is not as rare as it IS in the Coalition military ...

The NGR has supersonic flight capabilities for a BOMBER type plane .... nuff said .

I really do not see the NGR easily winning as you see it.

Yes they have more cyborgs and a decade maybe head start in technology, but the CS has closed the gap quickly since the CW campaign. And to be fair, I have never seen anywhere that mentions a figure on the population of each of their armies. So lets just say they are even there.

The whole viable force field tech gets me. One experimental unit, on one model of robot, does not a viable robot force field make. Who knows, the Ulti-max's force field may not work on a more streamlined PA or robot. What then? Redesign every Jaeger unit to make them compatible?

The NGR do NOT use juicer technology on their soldiers, except MAYBE a few special ops units. They dislike the entire juicer process, the effect on the soldier's discipline, and the death in five years side effect as per WB: 5. They would rather make 'Borgs and robots.

Now they do have a Awesome navy, third in the world after The New Navy and Atlantis, with submersible aircraft carriers and the like. That would tip the war in their favor or at least allow them to dictate where the battles would be fought.

The supersonic plane bit is nice and all, but unless they are planning to nuke the CS they only have SIX of these expensive planes. Makes it difficult to carpet bomb with only six attackers. That and the supersonic planes are cargo craft, not military attack craft.

Just a few places I disagree with your logic.

[mobuttu]

I don't own any Triax books, so I can't say anything on the subject besides conjectures taken from what I have previously read on this forums. Nonetheless, you should bear in mind that since SoT, CS don't have any major enemies threatening them (on the contrary NGR still have Gargoyle Empire at their frontiers), so CS could fight without two flanks on war.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lenwen]

I really do not see the NGR easily winning as you see it.

1 ) - Yes they have more cyborgs and a decade maybe head start in technology, but the CS has closed the gap quickly since the CW campaign. And to be fair, I have never seen anywhere that mentions a figure on the population of each of their armies. So lets just say they are even there.

And that to me is writers fiat ... "closed the gap quickly since the CW campaign " ... Really ? Vrs a powerblock that has prerifts tech never fell durring the rifts has had nearly 400 years of constant warfair vrs say the two wars the CS has had since its exsistence started ... And they closed the gap ?
Sorry I dont buy that not even for one melee round .. In my opinion .. Just because they upgraded the CS military in a more recent book then they have for the NGR , does not equate to the CS having closed the gap , So far that we know the NGR prolly already has stock Force Field tech in virtually everything they use P.A. , Robots , I know they have them on 1 robot vehicle . So whats to say they have not yet installed them or improved on them from what they already have ?
Population wise military wise You honestly think the CS army could go toe 2 toe with millions litterally millions of Gargoyals for as long as the NGR has ? That wouldent be an issue if you ask me . The Gargoyals would mop the floor with the Coalition . Never in the CS's entire lifetime have they had to fight a war against so massive an empire as the NGR has since nearly the comming of the rifts . Every single thing IN the NGR is geared for thier military . Everything . Period .

2 ) - The whole viable force field tech gets me. One experimental unit, on one model of robot, does not a viable robot force field make. Who knows, the Ulti-max's force field may not work on a more streamlined PA or robot. What then? Redesign every Jaeger unit to make them compatible?

1 Robot vehicle that has it can easily be turned into virtually all robot vehicles , and then to Combat Vehicles , then support vehicles , then Power Armors , And then pretty soon standard issue ...

Do you honestly really believe the NGR who HAD the tech in the first place ... would simply not Progress that tech EVER ?
Remember , nearly 150 years of constant warfare ... I think its not only they have , but they did .. Simply cause thier tech has not been updated cause of no new books for them does not mean thier stagnent .. I seen a Rifter mag with TONS of NGR jagers an stuff an they all had forcefields , Some say those are soon going to be canon . Guess we shall see what we see .

3 ) - The NGR do NOT use juicer technology on their soldiers, except MAYBE a few special ops units. They dislike the entire juicer process, the effect on the soldier's discipline, and the death in five years side effect as per WB: 5. They would rather make 'Borgs and robots.

That is 100% true hands down . But thier ARE juicers in thier military .

4 ) - Now they do have a Awesome navy, third in the world after The New Navy and Atlantis, with submersible aircraft carriers and the like. That would tip the war in their favor or at least allow them to dictate where the battles would be fought.

Thier navy could litterally be parked off the shores of india , and with bombers they have could take the fight directly TO Chi-Town itself , It does not matter WHERE those submersible aircraft carriers are parked in order to dictate any battle against the CS .

5 ) - The supersonic plane bit is nice and all, but unless they are planning to nuke the CS they only have SIX of these expensive planes. Makes it difficult to carpet bomb with only six attackers. That and the supersonic planes are cargo craft, not military attack craft.

Guess you had no clue thier Fighters are also Supersonic ...
Or that they have a Robot Vehicle that is in fact ... Supersonic as well ..

Just a few places I disagree with your logic.

1) - The CS who has had a 6month long war , Closed the Tech gap between themselves and a nation who has been at war for nearly 150 years .
Yeah cause that makes TOTAL sence .. the VERY reason everyone says the CS is closing the Gap of Tech lvls with that of Phase World is cause thier always at war ....

Yet , The same can not be said about the NGR who has been at war for 150 years ... ??? The NGR should already BE AT the Phase world tech lvl ... ESP since they had pre -rifts tech to begin with .... wouldent you think ?

This is the dumbest part of the CS tech lvl getting powercreeped . ( no offense ment just my personal observation)

2) - Population wise , The NGR has TWICE the size of the CS's standing military . If you want to simply hand wavium away the other half of the military the NGR has .. Sure the CS stands a better chance .

3) - Both nations use Juicer tech , both use them for special aplications only tho we agree 100% on this . But the NGR has millions of Borgs in thier armies . I believe this was a topic long ago actually ...

4) - The NGR has supersonic fighters , APC's , Robot Vehicles ... I mean really Do you honestly think the positioning of the Navy has any coralation to the dictation of any battles fought ? A Battle could erupt 500miles away and the Navy could dispatch several fighters from that distance an be there in a litterally a few minutes ... 2,010mph ..

5) - NGR could take those same planes an switch them up to be able to hold many many bombs , I do not think this is even a debatable topic , They are that advanced to understand this much heh , The Fact that they only have 6 of those planes is the part that would more then likely NOT allow themselves to do such a thing . However I am rather sure they have more then 6 of those planes by now .... And once they do .. Then they have the Ultimate Bomber . Dont you think a Bomber could devistate a couple parked Deaths Heads ? I mean really ? They use the Deaths heads as mobile bases an they even use them in conjunction with other deaths heads . When they Land those Deaths heads to create thier mini base those Supersonic Bombers capabilities look better and better ... wouldent you say ?

[MikelAmroni]

Aside from the previously stated improbability of the war happening - the NGR would have prepositioned forces in the Americas. The only way they would consider this war was if they had managed to destroy the Gargoyles and Brodkil. They would be the only one of the two who could effectively bring the fight to the other, and only if Free Quebec sided with the NGR in terms of humanitarian aid and non war material support. The CS could land a few divisions in Europe, but would be hard pressed to actually bring the fight to the NGR. If FQ gave them free passage, the NGR could park a few naval divisions and make pretty constant warfare on the CS without ever entering its directly controlled areas.

The problem with this scenario would be the Federation of Magic and Lazlo. Lazlo would begin immediate diplomatic efforts with the NGR to stop the escalation as soon as it became bad enough that it might come to war. They know that if the CS falls, so does North America, since the CS (or hatred of the CS) is pretty much the glue holding everything together. Unless they could manage to get big enough, fast enough, to take up the slack, then a government in absentia (governed by Triax and the NGR) would be all that stands between total chaos and a semblence of order that currently exists. The Federation of Magic would only want to eliminate them both, and would run constant atacks on the CS, and try to subvert the germans, and failing that would try to take them over (slightly easier, since the NGR doesn't have the serious anti-magic forces the CS has. It has some, but not the extent that the CS has.

Atlantis might exploit the situation in Europe, possibly setting up someone else to keep the pressure up on the germans, but unless Triax made a move against Atlantis or its direct holdings, they would stay out of it.

In short, should the NGR manage to finish off the Gargoyles, and the CS did something majorly silly, the NGR would eventually win, as long as FQ stayed even remotely an ally or neutral. That's a long list of ifs and maybes for a NGR win, but the CS has an even longer list of ifs and maybes.

[Samored II]

Thier navy could litterally be parked off the shores of india , and with bombers they have could take the fight directly TO Chi-Town itself , It does not matter WHERE those submersible aircraft carriers are parked in order to dictate any battle against the CS .

In order to project force in any meaningful manner NGR carriers are going to have to be in the local operations theatre; that means in, or near, the St Lawrence Seaway or Great Lakes. The CS has an airforce of its own to counter NGR strikes. And {gasp} CS planes are supersonic too.

But the NGR has millions of Borgs in thier armies . I believe this was a topic long ago actually ...

Doubtful.

4) - The NGR has supersonic fighters , APC's , Robot Vehicles ... I mean really Do you honestly think the positioning of the Navy has any coralation to the dictation of any battles fought ? A Battle could erupt 500miles away and the Navy could dispatch several fighters from that distance an be there in a litterally a few minutes ... 2,010mph ..

Yes they could. If allowed to operate unopposed. I suppose that's what the 1000 mile radar nets, AEGIS cruisers, AA batteries, and a couple thousand supersonic aircraft are supposed to prevent.

5) - NGR could take those same planes an switch them up to be able to hold many many bombs , I do not think this is even a debatable topic , They are that advanced to understand this much heh , The Fact that they only have 6 of those planes is the part that would more then likely NOT allow themselves to do such a thing . However I am rather sure they have more then 6 of those planes by now .... And once they do .. Then they have the Ultimate Bomber . Dont you think a Bomber could devistate a couple parked Deaths Heads ? I mean really ? They use the Deaths heads as mobile bases an they even use them in conjunction with other deaths heads . When they Land those Deaths heads to create thier mini base those Supersonic Bombers capabilities look better and better ... wouldent you say ?

Ultimate Bomber? Is it faster than radio waves? Can it pull more g-forces than a SAM?

[glitterboy2098]

Thier navy could litterally be parked off the shores of india , and with bombers they have could take the fight directly TO Chi-Town itself , It does not matter WHERE those submersible aircraft carriers are parked in order to dictate any battle against the CS .

In order to project force in any meaningful manner NGR carriers are going to have to be in the local operations theatre; that means in, or near, the St Lawrence Seaway or Great Lakes. The CS has an airforce of its own to counter NGR strikes. And {gasp} CS planes are supersonic too.

force projection by plane is a matter of how much firepower can be brought to bear. the NGR planes are highly supersonic, bordering on [/url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic]hypersonic.[/url], and can cruise at those speeds indefinately. (seriously, look at the states on the XM-180. mach 3, and will never overheat, with a nuclear powersupply that lasts years.)

CS jets are largely Transonic with limited supersonic boost capability. at supersonic speeds they can only operate for a few hours, before having to slow down to cool off. indefinate flight is limited to subsonic operation only.

the XM-180 carries a half dozen LRM's, all of which could be nuclear tipped, as well as a bomb bay for 10 heavy bombs (which are basically LRM warheads, which mean they too could be nuclear tipped.)

in terms of firepower, the CS jets come out only slightly behind. thier main loads focus on MRM's, SRM's, and MM's, with only a few airframes able to carry LRM's. the XM-180 has a higher max velocity than everything but an LRM, meaning it is basically immune to most of the CS airforce's firepower. CS direct fire weapons are also not as useful as you'd think. according to the moving target rules in RUE, anything moving over a few hundred mph is basically unhittable. (+1 for moving, additional +1 for every 50mph over 50mph. 300mph reletive velocity (assuming here a CS jet tries to match speeds with the NGR one) would be a +7 to strike (+1 for movement, another +5.6 for additional speed, rounded up) which means the average CS pilot would have a 50/50 chance of hitting.

them ain advantage the CS has in the airwar is durability. the XM-180 has a mere 180mdc main body. the CS jets run 300-400.

But the NGR has millions of Borgs in thier armies . I believe this was a topic long ago actually ...

Doubtful.

millions? yep, doubtful. several dozen thousand? probable. not counting all the people with only partial bionic reconstruction. that would likely make the numbers reach over 1 million. but those would all be wounded brought back to fighting form, not really dedicated combat units themselves.

4) - The NGR has supersonic fighters , APC's , Robot Vehicles ... I mean really Do you honestly think the positioning of the Navy has any coralation to the dictation of any battles fought ? A Battle could erupt 500miles away and the Navy could dispatch several fighters from that distance an be there in a litterally a few minutes ... 2,010mph ..

Yes they could. If allowed to operate unopposed. I suppose that's what the 1000 mile radar nets, AEGIS cruisers, AA batteries, and a couple thousand supersonic aircraft are supposed to prevent.

AA systems would be useless. i direct you again to the moving targets rule. at 2010mph, those Xm-180's would be a whopping +41 to strike. +1 for movement, and an additonal +39.8 for speed over 20mph.

at best, the CS AA systems are a +3 to strike. +5 if missiles and a good weapon system roll.
you'd need a natural 20 to even hit.

5) - NGR could take those same planes an switch them up to be able to hold many many bombs , I do not think this is even a debatable topic , They are that advanced to understand this much heh , The Fact that they only have 6 of those planes is the part that would more then likely NOT allow themselves to do such a thing . However I am rather sure they have more then 6 of those planes by now .... And once they do .. Then they have the Ultimate Bomber . Dont you think a Bomber could devistate a couple parked Deaths Heads ? I mean really ? They use the Deaths heads as mobile bases an they even use them in conjunction with other deaths heads . When they Land those Deaths heads to create thier mini base those Supersonic Bombers capabilities look better and better ... wouldent you say ?

Ultimate Bomber? Is it faster than radio waves? Can it pull more g-forces than a SAM?

mach 5 speed, and can cruise indefinately. (meaning an amazing +68 to strike by stuff firing at it.). the fastest CS AA system is mach 3 (HE, AP, or proton LRM). which means no chance of any CS weaponry ever hitting it.

it doesn't have to outrun radio. it can outruneverything the radio can direct at it. and it can carry many many tons of munitions. meaning it could carpet bomb the CS with city-buster nuclear warheads if it wanted to. a W80 physics package (the wonderful "3D6x100 md to everything in a 3 mile radius" warhead used on the tomahawk cruise missile) only masses 290kg, and is about the size of a minifidge. the triax transport, if refitted to be a bomber, could carry hundreds of them.

and remeber, the moving target rules, as written, only cover shooting at a target that is moving. not shooting fro ma moving vehicle at a stationary target. so at worst the NGr bomber/transport would have a -4 to strike due to unguided munitions.

[Seneca]

And that to me is writers fiat ... "closed the gap quickly since the CW campaign " ... Really ? Vrs a powerblock that has prerifts tech never fell durring the rifts has had nearly 400 years of constant warfair vrs say the two wars the CS has had since its exsistence started ... And they closed the gap ?
Sorry I dont buy that not even for one melee round .. In my opinion .. Just because they upgraded the CS military in a more recent book then they have for the NGR , does not equate to the CS having closed the gap , So far that we know the NGR prolly already has stock Force Field tech in virtually everything they use P.A. , Robots , I know they have them on 1 robot vehicle . So whats to say they have not yet installed them or improved on them from what they already have ?

1 Robot vehicle that has it can easily be turned into virtually all robot vehicles , and then to Combat Vehicles , then support vehicles , then Power Armors , And then pretty soon standard issue ...

Do you honestly really believe the NGR who HAD the tech in the first place ... would simply not Progress that tech EVER ?
Remember , nearly 150 years of constant warfare ... I think its not only they have , but they did .. Simply cause thier tech has not been updated cause of no new books for them does not mean thier stagnent .. I seen a Rifter mag with TONS of NGR jagers an stuff an they all had forcefields , Some say those are soon going to be canon . Guess we shall see what we see .

The CS uses knocked off Triax technology in their new war machine. Some that Triax authorized (CWC pg89 and 99) and some they did not I am sure. They have purchased over a dozen Ulti-max units when they were first exported over to the Americas. They also took inspiration from numerous Triax designs in their robots and PA. In other words, the CS cheated off the smart kid to close the gap. Something allies do in states of war. Now if they turned on each other later....

Population wise military wise You honestly think the CS army could go toe 2 toe with millions litterally millions of Gargoyals for as long as the NGR has ? That wouldent be an issue if you ask me . The Gargoyals would mop the floor with the Coalition . Never in the CS's entire lifetime have they had to fight a war against so massive an empire as the NGR has since nearly the comming of the rifts . Every single thing IN the NGR is geared for thier military . Everything . Period.

2) - Population wise , The NGR has TWICE the size of the CS's standing military . If you want to simply hand wavium away the other half of the military the NGR has .. Sure the CS stands a better chance .

I have never seen population polls of the NGR or the Gargoyle Empire so I wouldn't know how the numbers pan out in 109 P.A. I know that the 6 largest cities in the NGR account for 30% of their population at 25 million as of 105 P.A. But honestly in the post apocalypse world I believe the NGR having 83 million people in a area slightly less than old Germany is a case of the writer not checking what he wrote about the Americas.

Now keep in mind that the ENTIRE gargoyle population in Europe breaks down to only 8% compared to the 32% that equals the humans alone. (WB5 pg 215) And well they suddenly do not seem to be that hard pressed, huh? Remember it took a LONG time for the gargoyles to become the Empire they are now. For almost two hundred years the monsters of Europe were beaten back by the boy and girls of the NGR with little trouble. In fact, the NGR IGNORED rumors of a so-called Gargoyle Empire forming back in 20 P.A. (WB:5 pg 15), because they were nothing more than a collection of mangy tribes that bickered among themselves. In the Americas, the CS would have wiped every last gargoyle from the face of the planet back in the day instead of hiding behind their tech.

That is 100% true hands down . But their ARE juicers in their military.

3) - Both nations use Juicer tech , both use them for special applications only tho we agree 100% on this . But the NGR has millions (?) of Borgs in their armies . I believe this was a topic long ago actually ...

Yes. The CS uses juicers too, adds cybernetics to them, and in far greater numbers than the NGR ever would think of. Remember a burbie's life is worth little to the CS High Command.

And where is that millions of 'Borgs coming from? Again WB5 says that only 18% of their soldiers are full Cyborgs and 15% are partial. But without a full breakdown of the NGR's military population I cannot extrapolate that into numbers. But unless you see the NGR having a standing Army of over 18 million troops. I would be far more conservative.

After all the gargoyle offensive in France (Mindwerks pg79) has 1,500,000 sub-demons and the NGR has had to redeploy to counter this new front. If they have 18 million soldiers with a million of them being cyborgs. Well, I would not see this 1,500,000 being much of a threat

Their navy could literally be parked off the shores of india , and with bombers they have could take the fight directly TO Chi-Town itself , It does not matter WHERE those submersible aircraft carriers are parked in order to dictate any battle against the CS .


Guess you had no clue thier Fighters are also Supersonic ...
Or that they have a Robot Vehicle that is in fact ... Supersonic as well ..

4) - The NGR has supersonic fighters , APC's , Robot Vehicles ... I mean really Do you honestly think the positioning of the Navy has any coralation to the dictation of any battles fought ? A Battle could erupt 500miles away and the Navy could dispatch several fighters from that distance an be there in a litterally a few minutes ... 2,010mph ..

In order to project force in any meaningful manner NGR carriers are going to have to be in the local operations theater; that means in, or near, the St Lawrence Seaway or Great Lakes. The CS has an air force of its own to counter NGR strikes. And CS planes are supersonic too.

What Samored said. The CS and Triax have comparable air craft it is the NGR's navy that give them the edge in an offensive.

Remember an attacker must slow down to confirm the target and destruction. You do not fight battles or drop bombs at super-sonic speeds.

About the nothing could hit them theory. Yes, if the CS was unprepared sitting on the runway. Yeah the CS would be in trouble. The XM-280 however is not a stealth plane. Unlike the CS Talon and Nightwing. The air war between these two powers would be long and bloody.

1) - The CS who has had a 3 YEAR long war , Closed the Tech gap between themselves and a nation who has been at war off and on for 60 years.
Yeah cause that makes TOTAL sence .. the VERY reason everyone says the Triax is closing the Gap of Tech lvls with that of Phase World is cause thier always at war ....

Yet , The same can not be said about the NGR who has been at war for 60 years ... ??? The NGR should already BE AT the Phase world tech lvl ... ESP since they had pre -rifts tech to begin with .... wouldent you think ?

I changed the above for accuracy. Triax has sat on their edge more than anyone else. it has only been in the last 60 years that Triax has ramped up production and R & D. They have had a head start is all. And as I said before the CS is cheating off of them.

This is the dumbest part of the CS tech lvl getting powercreeped . ( no offense ment just my personal observation)

I am sure Triax 2 will even the power creep pardner if what you say about those Jaeger units in that Rifter becoming cannon.

[Samored II]

CS jets are largely Transonic with limited supersonic boost capability. at supersonic speeds they can only operate for a few hours, before having to slow down to cool off. indefinate flight is limited to subsonic operation only.

Dogfights are generally won or lost based on acceleration and maneuverability not cruising speed/time and they don't last several hours at a time. Straight ahead speed isn't really appropos to the discussion.

in terms of firepower, the CS jets come out only slightly behind. thier main loads focus on MRM's, SRM's, and MM's, with only a few airframes able to carry LRM's. the XM-180 has a higher max velocity than everything but an LRM, meaning it is basically immune to most of the CS airforce's firepower. CS direct fire weapons are also not as useful as you'd think. according to the moving target rules in RUE, anything moving over a few hundred mph is basically unhittable. (+1 for moving, additional +1 for every 50mph over 50mph. 300mph reletive velocity (assuming here a CS jet tries to match speeds with the NGR one) would be a +7 to strike (+1 for movement, another +5.6 for additional speed, rounded up) which means the average CS pilot would have a 50/50 chance of hitting.

them ain advantage the CS has in the airwar is durability. the XM-180 has a mere 180mdc main body. the CS jets run 300-400.

CS pilots flying more durable planes supported by CS AA and sensor systems would have an almost unbeatable advantage.

AA systems would be useless. i direct you again to the moving targets rule. at 2010mph, those Xm-180's would be a whopping +41 to strike. +1 for movement, and an additonal +39.8 for speed over 20mph.

at best, the CS AA systems are a +3 to strike. +5 if missiles and a good weapon system roll.
you'd need a natural 20 to even hit.

Don't confuse an inability to catch something from behind with being unable to hit something. Maneuverability is a function of gee force tolerance and a missile has orders of magnitude more tolerance for high-g loads than a human. Who cares if it takes a natural 20 to hit the plane, the CS has more than 20 missiles. Shoot as many as it takes.

mach 5 speed, and can cruise indefinately. (meaning an amazing +68 to strike by stuff firing at it.). the fastest CS AA system is mach 3 (HE, AP, or proton LRM). which means no chance of any CS weaponry ever hitting it.

What if the CS sees it coming and shoots the missiles from in front of the plane? What's the dodge bonus of a plane flying mach 4.5? Can it even dodge without tearing its wings off?

it doesn't have to outrun radio. it can outruneverything the radio can direct at it. and it can carry many many tons of munitions. meaning it could carpet bomb the CS with city-buster nuclear warheads if it wanted to. a W80 physics package (the wonderful "3D6x100 md to everything in a 3 mile radius" warhead used on the tomahawk cruise missile) only masses 290kg, and is about the size of a minifidge. the triax transport, if refitted to be a bomber, could carry hundreds of them.

What page number is it where the NGR has a tomahawk missile production program?

and remeber, the moving target rules, as written, only cover shooting at a target that is moving. not shooting fro ma moving vehicle at a stationary target. so at worst the NGr bomber/transport would have a -4 to strike due to unguided munitions.

And remember, opening the bomb bay doors in a supersonic airstream would cause the plane to disintegrate in mid air.

[glitterboy2098]

CS jets are largely Transonic with limited supersonic boost capability. at supersonic speeds they can only operate for a few hours, before having to slow down to cool off. indefinate flight is limited to subsonic operation only.

Dogfights are generally won or lost based on acceleration and maneuverability not cruising speed/time and they don't last several hours at a time. Straight ahead speed isn't really appropos to the discussion.

great, if your dogfighting. modern air combat is based much more on BVR missile shots at supersonic closing speeds. in this regard the NGR planes are superior.

in terms of firepower, the CS jets come out only slightly behind. thier main loads focus on MRM's, SRM's, and MM's, with only a few airframes able to carry LRM's. the XM-180 has a higher max velocity than everything but an LRM, meaning it is basically immune to most of the CS airforce's firepower. CS direct fire weapons are also not as useful as you'd think. according to the moving target rules in RUE, anything moving over a few hundred mph is basically unhittable. (+1 for moving, additional +1 for every 50mph over 50mph. 300mph reletive velocity (assuming here a CS jet tries to match speeds with the NGR one) would be a +7 to strike (+1 for movement, another +5.6 for additional speed, rounded up) which means the average CS pilot would have a 50/50 chance of hitting.

them ain advantage the CS has in the airwar is durability. the XM-180 has a mere 180mdc main body. the CS jets run 300-400.

CS pilots flying more durable planes supported by CS AA and sensor systems would have an almost unbeatable advantage.

except that said durible planes would fail to stop the faster NGR planes. and the AA systems are unable to deal with such fast targets.

AA systems would be useless. i direct you again to the moving targets rule. at 2010mph, those Xm-180's would be a whopping +41 to strike. +1 for movement, and an additonal +39.8 for speed over 20mph.

at best, the CS AA systems are a +3 to strike. +5 if missiles and a good weapon system roll.
you'd need a natural 20 to even hit.

Don't confuse an inability to catch something from behind with being unable to hit something. Maneuverability is a function of gee force tolerance and a missile has orders of magnitude more tolerance for high-g loads than a human. Who cares if it takes a natural 20 to hit the plane, the CS has more than 20 missiles. Shoot as many as it takes.

again, please note NGR planes have higher crising velocities than nearly all CS missile base AA systems, and given the range of the CS direct fire systems, the NGR planes will close the range and pass by too quickly.

mach 5 speed, and can cruise indefinately. (meaning an amazing +68 to strike by stuff firing at it.). the fastest CS AA system is mach 3 (HE, AP, or proton LRM). which means no chance of any CS weaponry ever hitting it.

What if the CS sees it coming and shoots the missiles from in front of the plane? What's the dodge bonus of a plane flying mach 4.5? Can it even dodge without tearing its wings off?

please show me where the rule state you can fire a missile at a spot ahead of a plane? wouldn't that be a called shot? something the rules specifically state cannot be done?

as for dodging, you don't need to. the to hit penalty for shooting at you renders hitting you pretty much impossible. except for the golden BB effect (a 5% chance).

but i would also point out that at the velocities involved, a simple side slip or turn would suffice to avoid most incoming fire. which is perfectly viable even at those speeds.

it doesn't have to outrun radio. it can outruneverything the radio can direct at it. and it can carry many many tons of munitions. meaning it could carpet bomb the CS with city-buster nuclear warheads if it wanted to. a W80 physics package (the wonderful "3D6x100 md to everything in a 3 mile radius" warhead used on the tomahawk cruise missile) only masses 290kg, and is about the size of a minifidge. the triax transport, if refitted to be a bomber, could carry hundreds of them.

What page number is it where the NGR has a tomahawk missile production program?

they can build nuclear power sources, advanced bipedal robots, tactical nuclear weapons, high powered man portable energy weapons, and force fields, but they can't build an implosion type plutonium fission warhead?

we're already assuming a war between two allies, and a transport converted to a bomber. i think we can assume the NGR can make what they think they need.

and remeber, the moving target rules, as written, only cover shooting at a target that is moving. not shooting fro ma moving vehicle at a stationary target. so at worst the NGr bomber/transport would have a -4 to strike due to unguided munitions.

And remember, opening the bomb bay doors in a supersonic airstream would cause the plane to disintegrate in mid air.

completely untrue.

disproven in the:
B-58 Hustler
B-1 lancer
F-111
the YF-12 Blackbird interceptor prototype (which was shown in multiple flight tests to launch air to air missiles from an internal bay at mach 3 and manage highly accurate strikes. there was also the A-12 variant intended as a nuclear strike bomber, able to carry multiple strategic nukes in at mach 3 and launch them while cruising at said speed. was ultimately not purchased due to existing investment in the XB-70 valkyrie program

not only can a plane open bay doors and drop bombs/fire missiles, it's more or less standard now.

[Lenwen]

Thank you for your vast knowledge GB your help on this is incredible , Because I could not find anything on the abilities of bombers and thier ability to open bomb bay doors at those speeds .

Your help is invaluble at showing the truth of the matter , And I thank you

[Samored II]

again, please note NGR planes have higher crising velocities than nearly all CS missile base AA systems, and given the range of the CS direct fire systems, the NGR planes will close the range and pass by too quickly.

It would take less than 80 seconds for a SAM to reach intercept height. Since the NGR will get picked up once they enter the 1000 mile sensor net and it would take 30 minutes for the airstrike to close that distance, the CS would have plenty of time to react.

please show me where the rule state you can fire a missile at a spot ahead of a plane? wouldn't that be a called shot? something the rules specifically state cannot be done?

ROFL. It's called leading the target, or how you shoot at something that's moving. Try this on for size; the NGR planes are detected on CS radar when they're 900 miles out to sea, a missile battery 300 miles ahead of the planes flight path fires a mach 3 SAM. It takes 77 seconds for the missile to match altitudes, then it closes to strike. It doesn't matter what the planes top speed is, unless then turn off and run the other way, they're going to get hit.

as for dodging, you don't need to. the to hit penalty for shooting at you renders hitting you pretty much impossible. except for the golden BB effect (a 5% chance).

Then shoot 20 missiles, who cares if 19 miss.

but i would also point out that at the velocities involved, a simple side slip or turn would suffice to avoid most incoming fire. which is perfectly viable even at those speeds.

And I would point out the incoming missile could likewise maneuver, and since its computer brain doesn't have to worry about blacking out from g-force pressure, it will maneuver faster.

they can build nuclear power sources, advanced bipedal robots, tactical nuclear weapons, high powered man portable energy weapons, and force fields, but they can't build an implosion type plutonium fission warhead?

Evidently not. Or at least they haven't done so circa PA 109.

we're already assuming a war between two allies, and a transport converted to a bomber. i think we can assume the NGR can make what they think they need.

OK. I think the CS has built scramjet interceptor SAM nets.

completely untrue.

disproven in the:
B-58 Hustler
B-1 lancer
F-111
the YF-12 Blackbird interceptor prototype (which was shown in multiple flight tests to launch air to air missiles from an internal bay at mach 3 and manage highly accurate strikes. there was also the A-12 variant intended as a nuclear strike bomber, able to carry multiple strategic nukes in at mach 3 and launch them while cruising at said speed. was ultimately not purchased due to existing investment in the XB-70 valkyrie program

not only can a plane open bay doors and drop bombs/fire missiles, it's more or less standard now.

Standard on purpose built bombers. Definetely not standard on retrofitted cargo craft.

[glitterboy2098]

and those are just the most interesting examples i could find. the F-22 can use it's internal bays while supersonic
(otherwise it's super-cruise ability is a waste), ditto for the F-35.
the XF-108 Rapier and the CF-105 Arrow were both designed with an internal bay for missile carriage, and both were designed as supersonic interceptors intended to exploit BVR missiles while closing at high speed.

not to mention that if you couldn't go supersonic with an open bay door, your really screwed using external pylons at the same speeds, which would mean the F-14, F-15, F-16, F-111, F-4, F-105, Mig-17, mig-21, mig-23, mig-25, mig-31, mig-39, mig-35, su-27, su-30, JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter, etc, etc, etc, etc...... shouldn't exist. but all of those can use external pylons, including firing from them, while supersonic. (in some cases, while lugging a rediculously large payload...)

[Samored II]

and those are just the most interesting examples i could find. the F-22 can use it's internal bays while supersonic
(otherwise it's super-cruise ability is a waste), ditto for the F-35.
the XF-108 Rapier and the CF-105 Arrow were both designed with an internal bay for missile carriage, and both were designed as supersonic interceptors intended to exploit BVR missiles while closing at high speed.

not to mention that if you couldn't go supersonic with an open bay door, your really screwed using external pylons at the same speeds, which would mean the F-14, F-15, F-16, F-111, F-4, F-105, Mig-17, mig-21, mig-23, mig-25, mig-31, mig-39, mig-35, su-27, su-30, JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter, etc, etc, etc, etc...... shouldn't exist. but all of those can use external pylons, including firing from them, while supersonic. (in some cases, while lugging a rediculously large payload...)

Kewl. Now find an example of where a retrofitted C-130 can do the same thing. At 2000 mph.

[glitterboy2098]

if this was a C-130, i'd take you up on that. (and even then, the C-130 is the deployment method of choice for the GU-43/B MOAB and the BLU-82. and while the C-130 isn't supersonic, some of the conceptualized replacements are. and they have the same capabilities otherwise)

i've already showed it is possible to build weapons bays that can withstand such stresses. with SDC materials, no less.
and we know you can convert cargo planes to bombers, it's been done frequently through out history.

so why do you doubt that the NGR could overhaul their transports into bomber models? it's a case of swapping out the nose, really. doesn't even hold anything complicated like engines or wings. those are all in the back. a couple of months in a hanger and you'd be in business. especially since the new nose section could be built seperately while your prepping the plane for the overhaul.


and if you really want to quibble over this kind of thing, show me anything in the real world that matches the Firestorm Flying Fortress or the Deaths head Transport. i mean, at least the NGR planes use wings....

[Samored II]

ok, now your just trying to use a strawman. if this was a C-130, i'd take you up on that. (and even then, the C-130 is the deployment method of choice for the GU-43/B MOAB and the BLU-82. and while the C-130 isn't supersonic, some of the conceptualized replacements are. and they have the same capabilities otherwise)

Really? They're designed to drop cargo at 2000 mph? Or are they designed to transport cargo at speed, then slow down to deliver?

i've already showed it is possible to build weapons bays that can withstand such stresses. with SDC materials, no less.
and we know you can convert cargo planes to bombers, it's been done frequently through out history.

I suspect a purpose built craft would have superior performance characteristics.

so why do you doubt that the NGR could overhaul their transports into bomber models? it's a case of swapping out the nose, really. doesn't even hold anything complicated like engines or wings. those are all in the back. a couple of months in a hanger and you'd be in business. especially since the new nose section could be built seperately while your prepping the plane for the overhaul.

I have no problem with such an overhaul. Just with the arguement that the resulting airframe would be as capable as one built for the task.

and if you really want to quibble over this kind of thing, show me anything in the real world that matches the Firestorm Flying Fortress or the Deaths head Transport. i mean, at least the NGR planes use wings....

Appropos of nothing.

[glitterboy2098]

and if you really want to quibble over this kind of thing, show me anything in the real world that matches the Firestorm Flying Fortress or the Deaths head Transport. i mean, at least the NGR planes use wings....

Appropos of nothing.

hey, your the one who wants "realistic examples". equal ground here. i've already shown the triax planes could work. now it's your turn.

[Dog_O_War]

The Coalition would win hands down.
The advantages;

• Numbers - the CS easily rivals any 'Borg army the NGR can muster with Skelebots alone.
  
• Mobility - the CS actually has a Navy, and numerous superior transport-vehicles (assuming that the NGR has a Death's Head equivalent, it is unnamed and thus inferior).
  
• Allies - A single "in" with the Solvietsky means nothing. They are more likely to worry about their own problems than fight a war with a group that ultimately they will oppose, as their ideologies differ. As well, the CS has easy access to a million of Mercs.; the NGR does not. Finally, the French allied with the Germans - seriously. Never. Gonna. Happen. Besides, FQ broke free from their CS ally for reasons of independence; can you honestly believe they'd fall for a German ally that would allow them to remain as such? Trade is one thing, combat is another.
  
• Equipment - the Coalition has superior PA, robots, tanks, and personal firearms - regardless of what the books say about actual tech-levels (compare the actual equipment listed). I'd throw a Super-SAM against a Jager any day of the week. As well, the CS has air-superiority, as the Gargoyles haven't allowed the NGR to develop good flying PA.
  
• Battlefield Control - the CS have both superior Air and Sea capabilities; they control more battlefields than the NGR does, thus they are more likely to win. The land-battle is one of attrition; the NGR can't win it for the simple fact that they must still hold borders against the Gargoyle Empire.
  
• CS have recently crushed their only real threat into the ground; Tolkeen. All other empires/groups are too small to have any real effect on them. As well placing faith in a unified alliance of these small groups rising up together and fighting the CS as a singular army is unlikely, impractical, and improbable. If it was going to happen, it would've happened at the SoT. But it didn't.
  
• Finally; the CS now has a group of soldiers that are veterans of an actual war, not of border-patrols and skirmishes with gargoyles. They also have psychics and genetically modified and superior troops (from Juicers to mutant-animals). They have hidden allies on their home-front (casters that sympathize with the plight of humanity, that are generally only American-speakers).

The other factions around the world will not get involved because they have their own problems. The Japanese has the entire Pacific and the unkown half of America to cross in order to make any kind of assault; going the other way means crossing dozens of borders of hostile nations in order to send any kind of troop-support. As well, they only like other Japanese, so I don't see them rushing to German aid. The New Navy has their own foes to face. the FoM is not in a position to make any kind of unified assault due to in-fighting, which means that Lazlo would have to saddle that pony alone (not likely).


The whys of war.
The CS would likely combat the NGR due to fallen trade-agreements; the NGR is protective of their tech. and is forcing the CS to pay through the nose for their old equipment. I wouldn't stand for that, and I don't think the CS will either. Next is the betrayal of FQ - the CS must feel anger at both of them for being cut-out of any Glitterboy deals. If anything, FQ might be Poland, and the CS might be Germany attempting to reclaimed a percieved loss of territory/ownership. The CS would have plenty of time to both combat FQ and then mount up a defence against a disorganised NGR task-force.

Additionally, spies in the midst could spark a war between the two; both likely have them, and if they were caught with sensitive materials it could lead to war.

Finally, those damned Germans and their fancy cars need to be taught a lesson on North American Automobiles!


That's how I see it, anyways.

[Lenwen]

So basically , Saying the NGR can ( concivably ) retrofit thier cargo haulers into modified bombers ... is like saying ...

The CS has built scramjet interceptor SAM nets ?

Really ?

Grats on the powercreep , because one is VERY plausible , while the other ... Not so much ..

[Lenwen]

The Coalition would win hands down.
The advantages;

• Numbers - the CS easily rivals any 'Borg army the NGR can muster with Skelebots alone.

Wrong , The mear fact that the NGR has withstood the Garg Empire this long is a TESTIMENT of how powerful thier military is .

Givin the SAME situation the CS would have crumbled , long long ago ...

Mobility - the CS actually has a Navy, and numerous superior transport-vehicles (assuming that the NGR has a Death's Head equivalent, it is unnamed and thus inferior).

Wrong again , The NGR has basically some of the same land based military unites as the CS to include APC's ...

Allies - A single "in" with the Solvietsky means nothing. They are more likely to worry about their own problems than fight a war with a group that ultimately they will oppose, as their ideologies differ. As well, the CS has easy access to a million of Mercs.; the NGR does not. Finally, the French allied with the Germans - seriously. Never. Gonna. Happen. Besides, FQ broke free from their CS ally for reasons of independence; can you honestly believe they'd fall for a German ally that would allow them to remain as such? Trade is one thing, combat is another.

Dont know bout those other countries but to think they would not ally with someone who is a WORLD leader in Tech is simply ludicris ...

Equipment - the Coalition has superior PA, robots, tanks, and personal firearms - regardless of what the books say about actual tech-levels (compare the actual equipment listed). I'd throw a Super-SAM against a Jager any day of the week. As well, the CS has air-superiority, as the Gargoyles haven't allowed the NGR to develop good flying PA.

100% flat out wrong on every aspect .. minus the Sam to Jager comp.
NGR has better PA, Robots , Tanks and Personal Firearms . Regaurdless of what you think .

Battlefield Control - the CS have both superior Air and Sea capabilities; they control more battlefields than the NGR does, thus they are more likely to win. The land-battle is one of attrition; the NGR can't win it for the simple fact that they must still hold borders against the Gargoyle Empire.

The CS has nearly been wiped outta the water with just the navy that FQ brought to bear on them , NGR has a navy that would quite litterally destroy ANYTHING the CS could put to bear in the water ... What you said is so crazy its not even laughable . Read the CS Navy book , Then let me know what you think about the NGR navy an the CS navy going at it ..

CS have recently crushed their only real threat into the ground; Tolkeen. All other empires/groups are too small to have any real effect on them. As well placing faith in a unified alliance of these small groups rising up together and fighting the CS as a singular army is unlikely, impractical, and improbable. If it was going to happen, it would've happened at the SoT. But it didn't.

Which nearly EVERY single person on the baords has no inkling why it never happened .. Then again the Whole mess they call the SoT series was full of holes and nonsencical stuff that not MANY actually use it in thier games .

Finally; the CS now has a group of soldiers that are veterans of an actual war, not of border-patrols and skirmishes with gargoyles. They also have psychics and genetically modified and superior troops (from Juicers to mutant-animals). They have hidden allies on their home-front (casters that sympathize with the plight of humanity, that are generally only American-speakers).

Baorder Patrols and "skirmishes" ?
Seriously ? Wow you have absolutly NO clue .. The Typical NGR soilder is lvl 6-9 due to a WAR .. not a 6 month long siege like the CS military ...

Hands down the NGR soilders are likely to be 4 to 6 lvls HIGHER then thier CS counterparts ...
Your crazy with what you said , but then its your opinion an I wont try to change that 1 bit heh . Great Fiction tho hands down .

[glitterboy2098]

The Coalition would win hands down.
The advantages;

• Numbers - the CS easily rivals any 'Borg army the NGR can muster with Skelebots alone.
  

the same skelebots which died in droves during the SoT, and are not known for innovative tactics?

compare this to the NGR bots...which included gargoyle replica's that can blend into gargoyle society, and frontline combat units capable of complex tactical planning....

Mobility - the CS actually has a Navy, and numerous superior transport-vehicles (assuming that the NGR has a Death's Head equivalent, it is unnamed and thus inferior).

the NGr has a navy as well. for every 20th century carrier or CS built carrier, the NGR has two submersible LCT's that run about the size of the ticonderoga. for every escort vessel the CS has, the NGR has two missile cruisers.

the NGR ships have about 5x more mdc, pack about 10x the firepower, and carry about 4x the troop compliments.

seriously, read WB7.

as for transport vehicles..the DHT of the CS can be matched by a flight of 4 Dragonflies and 6 lightning VTOL's. they provide comparable transport capacity, comparable speed, and greater survivability (being multiple targets. loosing one will not loose the entire unit of troops) the above combination is also comparable in terms of cost.

Equipment - the Coalition has superior PA, robots, tanks, and personal firearms - regardless of what the books say about actual tech-levels (compare the actual equipment listed). I'd throw a Super-SAM against a Jager any day of the week. As well, the CS has air-superiority, as the Gargoyles haven't allowed the NGR to develop good flying PA.

so..the CWC, circa PA105, shows better stuff than Triax&NGR, circa PA100? wow, who'd have thought that?

remember that the CWC technology is Triax tech. the mighty CS warmachine is Triax tech given to the CS. and triax retains a lot of tech they didn't share, like the forcefields and such.

Battlefield Control - the CS have both superior Air and Sea capabilities; they control more battlefields than the NGR does, thus they are more likely to win. The land-battle is one of attrition; the NGR can't win it for the simple fact that they must still hold borders against the Gargoyle Empire.

the CS jets are inferior to NGr jets, as shown. the CS navy is inferior to the NGr navy, as shown in WB7. in terms of holding borders, yes the NGR has to deal with the gargoyles. but the CS, once distracted with fighting the germans, would have to confront the xiticix, the federation of magic, the vampire kingdoms, and the peco empire.

the NGR has shown it can handle the garg's at it's borders, with enough success that the inner parts of the NGR are seemingly idyllic. (as seen by erin tarn's covert travel through it). the CS, despite holding off all it's 'enemies' (most of which were not really a threat to it at the time), can barely keep it's people going.

CS have recently crushed their only real threat into the ground; Tolkeen. All other empires/groups are too small to have any real effect on them. As well placing faith in a unified alliance of these small groups rising up together and fighting the CS as a singular army is unlikely, impractical, and improbable. If it was going to happen, it would've happened at the SoT. But it didn't.

and now they are stuck in a occupation facing insurgents, are faced with the increase in activity of the federation of magic, and are facing major threat of the xiticix...

Finally; the CS now has a group of soldiers that are veterans of an actual war, not of border-patrols and skirmishes with gargoyles. They also have psychics and genetically modified and superior troops (from Juicers to mutant-animals). They have hidden allies on their home-front (casters that sympathize with the plight of humanity, that are generally only American-speakers).

and the NGR has vetrans in it's forces too, from the 80+ years of conflict it has faced aqainst the garg's and brodkil. real wars, not border skirmishes or raids.

[Samored II]

and if you really want to quibble over this kind of thing, show me anything in the real world that matches the Firestorm Flying Fortress or the Deaths head Transport. i mean, at least the NGR planes use wings....

Appropos of nothing.

hey, your the one who wants "realistic examples". equal ground here. i've already shown the triax planes could work. now it's your turn.

The Firestorm and Death's Head exist and function the way they do because they are elements of the game.

[dark brandon]

Your crazy with what you said , but then its your opinion an I wont try to change that 1 bit heh . Great Fiction tho hands down .

Lets not get rude or personal with this discussion.

the same skelebots which died in droves during the SoT, and are not known for innovative tactics?

compare this to the NGR bots...which included gargoyle replica's that can blend into gargoyle society, and frontline combat units capable of complex tactical planning....

It could be argued that CS has more experience with Tech opponents than NGR. Remember, skelebots were failures because of magic and their in-ability to distinguish mages from normal humans and were easily fooled. They are situational. Against the xiticixs they actually work fairly well. They would probably be very good against large cyborgs and robots and PA.

remember that the CWC technology is Triax tech. the mighty CS warmachine is Triax tech given to the CS. and triax retains a lot of tech they didn't share, like the forcefields and such.

Not true. There are only 2 places where is specifically states what they got from triax. CS body armor and the Dagger aircraft that was created by both Triax and CS working together. Beyond that, it is never stated that Triax gave CS any type of Tech and stated that CS had been working on the Warmachine gear for quite a while (Well before the CS and Triax had made any kinda trade deal)

the CS jets are inferior to NGr jets, as shown. the CS navy is inferior to the NGr navy, as shown in WB7. in terms of holding borders, yes the NGR has to deal with the gargoyles. but the CS, once distracted with fighting the germans, would have to confront the xiticix, the federation of magic, the vampire kingdoms, and the peco empire.

the NGR has shown it can handle the garg's at it's borders, with enough success that the inner parts of the NGR are seemingly idyllic. (as seen by erin tarn's covert travel through it). the CS, despite holding off all it's 'enemies' (most of which were not really a threat to it at the time), can barely keep it's people going.

You're not giving the Gargoyles that much credit. It plainly states in WB 7 that CS is far more stable and safe than the NGR. The Gargoyles would be far more deadly to NGR than the CS enemies would be to the CS.

That's about it. I think Triax would win, but I don't think it would be beneficial to them in any way. The Gargoyles and Brodkil would take advantage and you'd probably end up with 2 destoryed human nations.

[Seneca]

This topic has strayed abit from the original question so I will attempt to bring it back on track.

So lets say that the CS and the NGR go to war. Who would win and more importantly why did it happen? How would this change the face of rifts earth?

Remember the FoM, the Russian Warlords, the gargoyle empire, Lazlo and Free Quebec will be affected by this has well.

I see the CS winning a protracted war.

Despite the NGR having a technological upper hand and access to vehicles/aircraft that can bomb the CS back into the stone age, we have all forgotten two facts.

The CS provides the VAST majority of the NGR's food/raw materials surplus now. The NGR has been fighting a two front war on and off for 60 years and it is stated that their supplies have dwindled in recent times. This is one of the reasons they pressed so hard to open relations with the CS. To get a reliable Ally that could restock their supplies. Opening a third front with the CS would cripple them even if they won hands down.

Also the NGR is a contained target in Germany a few bombing runs by CS aircraft could do far more damage to them in such a small geographical location. Unlike the CS which is spread across most of the Midwest. Sure Chi-town would be heavily bombarded maybe even destroyed but the NGR's six largest cities even being built mainly underground are located within a 400 sq mile area.

Now how such a war could happen is easy. CS paranoia. The NGR has contracts with New Camelot (or new Avalon whatever...), Tarnow, and Tarramore. Each kingdom has magic users and D-bees and if they saw a link in some way with the FoM. Say a assassination plot using Triax weapons and founded by an evil Dragon King hiding in Tarramore in Ireland?

Or maybe some fun involving Free Quebec and the NGR and a massive troop upgrade with the advent of the so-called Shemarian Nation?

I could see a hotheaded Emperor Prosek outlawing Triax weapons across America and angering the big shots in the Triax corporation. (At the same time making Northern Gun happy as clams) A little lobbying and a diplomatic fo-pa and a skirmish breaks out in the Atlantic ocean over a shipment of Triax made goods. Light match, add egomaniacs... War is started.

[Nxla666]

Such a war wouldnt happen while the two nations still had any kind of a credible threat to its security.

Neither the CS or NGR are stupid enough to engage in such.

In a world where the NGR didnt have to fight the gargoyle empire and the CS didnt have so many enemies (both real and imagined), then they might come to a point where they would fight a war. Though that war would be fought using equipment that has yet to be printed.

[Dog_O_War]

The Coalition would win hands down.
The advantages;

• Numbers - the CS easily rivals any 'Borg army the NGR can muster with Skelebots alone.
  

the same skelebots which died in droves during the SoT, and are not known for innovative tactics?

compare this to the NGR bots...which included gargoyle replica's that can blend into gargoyle society, and frontline combat units capable of complex tactical planning....

So machines that look like gargoyles is a protective measure against the CS?
The NGR has magic that can severely mess up electronics now?
1 NGR borg = 3 skelebots?

Equipment - the Coalition has superior PA, robots, tanks, and personal firearms - regardless of what the books say about actual tech-levels (compare the actual equipment listed). I'd throw a Super-SAM against a Jager any day of the week. As well, the CS has air-superiority, as the Gargoyles haven't allowed the NGR to develop good flying PA.

so..the CWC, circa PA105, shows better stuff than Triax&NGR, circa PA100? wow, who'd have thought that?

remember that the CWC technology is Triax tech. the mighty CS warmachine is Triax tech given to the CS. and triax retains a lot of tech they didn't share, like the forcefields and such.

A forcefield on one PA (that sucks) does not equal 3-4 SAMAS.
The superiority of technology is not in advancement - it is in function and use.

Take the knife for example. A weapon that is over 4000 years old has seen more use than any other weapon on the planet. A gun might be considered superior, but compare the utility of the gun to the knife, kill-count, and record reliability and the knife comes out on top in all categories.
The NGR tech. is both overrated and inferior as their FSE weapons are incompatable (and thus less useful) in North America. Meanwhile North American weapons out-number the entire European arsenal by a factor of 20. Their guns are not 20 times better than NA made weapons, so I'm not seeing this Triax superior-technology you're talking about.

Battlefield Control - the CS have both superior Air and Sea capabilities; they control more battlefields than the NGR does, thus they are more likely to win. The land-battle is one of attrition; the NGR can't win it for the simple fact that they must still hold borders against the Gargoyle Empire.

the CS jets are inferior to NGr jets, as shown. the CS navy is inferior to the NGr navy, as shown in WB7. in terms of holding borders, yes the NGR has to deal with the gargoyles. but the CS, once distracted with fighting the germans, would have to confront the xiticix, the federation of magic, the vampire kingdoms, and the peco empire.

Multiple, fractured groups that will not pose any serious threat alone - which they will remain, as they would never ally.
As for the Coalitions' Navy being inferior, you're again pitting low numbers of supposedly superior vessels against what amounts to an infinite number of ships. Thems the facts. We saw the folly of this in WWII, and yet that side still came out on top.

Ever hear the story of the German Stug holding a road against an American convoy?
In the end, the Germans ran out of ammunition, but the Americans didn't run out of tanks.

the NGR has shown it can handle the garg's at it's borders, with enough success that the inner parts of the NGR are seemingly idyllic. (as seen by erin tarn's covert travel through it). the CS, despite holding off all it's 'enemies' (most of which were not really a threat to it at the time), can barely keep it's people going.

Can handle the Gargoyles at their borders with the majority of their military. But against both the CS and the Gargoyles? Not gonna happen.

CS have recently crushed their only real threat into the ground; Tolkeen. All other empires/groups are too small to have any real effect on them. As well placing faith in a unified alliance of these small groups rising up together and fighting the CS as a singular army is unlikely, impractical, and improbable. If it was going to happen, it would've happened at the SoT. But it didn't.

and now they are stuck in a occupation facing insurgents, are faced with the increase in activity of the federation of magic, and are facing major threat of the xiticix...

"Increased activity". Means nothing. For one, FQ wouldn't let their only means of staving off said Federation be destroyed. For two, those "insurgents" are a bees' nest; leave it alone and you buy yourself a temporary repreave. They can and will come back to swat them, but they don't have to at the moment.

As for the Xiticix; they are an alien force that will not react to a war 3000 miles away. Your point?

Finally; the CS now has a group of soldiers that are veterans of an actual war, not of border-patrols and skirmishes with gargoyles. They also have psychics and genetically modified and superior troops (from Juicers to mutant-animals). They have hidden allies on their home-front (casters that sympathize with the plight of humanity, that are generally only American-speakers).

and the NGR has vetrans in it's forces too, from the 80+ years of conflict it has faced aqainst the garg's and brodkil. real wars, not border skirmishes or raids.

Yes, the CS certainly never had to fight for anything during the time they carved out their Empire in the domain of man.

Baorder Patrols and "skirmishes" ?
Seriously ? Wow you have absolutly NO clue .. The Typical NGR soilder is lvl 6-9 due to a WAR .. not a 6 month long siege like the CS military ...

Hands down the NGR soilders are likely to be 4 to 6 lvls HIGHER then thier CS counterparts ...
Your crazy with what you said , but then its your opinion an I wont try to change that 1 bit heh . Great Fiction tho hands down .

Everytime we find ourselves on opposite sides of a discussion, your side is inevitably wrong. That is just the history of the comments you post and the comments I post in a debate.

Everytime you provoke me with sarcastic comments, I end up singling you out to show exactly where and how you are wrong.
First I'll do this with the "levels" comment. Show proof in the books stating that the average NGR grunt is 4-6 levels higher than a CS grunt. Infact, show any proof that they are even 1-2 levels higher.

Now beyond this, where in the books does it state that fighting combat is a major exp. earner? Your point is both wrong and extremely misinformed.

Second, your posts consistently contain little fact and abundant fiction; this does not help reinforce your position. That you rely on stating my thoughts on the matter are fiction shows you have only a slight grasp on the difference of the reality/fiction of the situation yourself. You do not post evidence - only comment on how others are wrong for no reason other than they didn't agree with you.

This is the sign of a bad tactician; you are unwilling to look into and accept the facts of a situation if it makes your side look bad. This means you have likely not analyzed the quantity/quality comparison, the politics of the various nations, or the current situations these places are in. You're basing your opinions on a couple of books stating that Germany has a higher tech. level, and that they fight gargoyles (which are a tough opponent), therefore they are themselves "tough". You have failed to realize that they are still fighting Gargoyles, and have been unable to gain ground on them edge-wise. The CS has been doing the same thing (fighting supernatural enemies), except that they have gained ground.

Third (and finally), the NGR has not been fighting an all-out war against the Gargoyles for 80 years; they've been running into nests and such of gargoyle-civilians and calling them "battles". Actual Gargoyle-Warriors are to be feared; the PA of the NGR can barely handle even one actual warrior, let alone a 1/2 dozen gargoyle civilians - this means something. It means that the "war" NGR has fought is nothing more than an illusion; a farce. They haven't fought actual combatants geared for war. The CS has. "border patrols & skirmishes" is correct.

[Dustin Fireblade]

NGR wins this war hands down.

Just look at the population of the NGR on page 11 of World Book 5 - The six largest NGR cities account for 25 million people, and that's less than 30% of their total population.

[Lenwen]

Despite the NGR having a technological upper hand and access to vehicles/aircraft that can bomb the CS back into the stone age, we have all forgotten two facts.

The CS provides the VAST majority of the NGR's food/raw materials surplus now.

The NGR has been fighting a two front war on and off for 60 years and it is stated that their supplies have dwindled in recent times.

Actually this is wrong , as according to Aftermath they have been seeking a new trade ally due to the FUTURE campaigns they have planned .

They are actually Looking at the future an know thier supplies will start to dwindle based on the Double Front they are GOING to start in the next 6-8 months timeframe , Not because thier supplies are Low or anything Right now ....

[Dog_O_War]

NGR wins this war hands down.

Just look at the population of the NGR on page 11 of World Book 5 - The six largest NGR cities account for 25 million people, and that's less than 30% of their total population.

Civilians do not win wars; they lose them. They are 90% mouths that need to be fed. The NGR cannot support its current population.

[Lenwen]

NGR wins this war hands down.

Just look at the population of the NGR on page 11 of World Book 5 - The six largest NGR cities account for 25 million people, and that's less than 30% of their total population.

Civilians do not win wars; they lose them. They are 90% mouths that need to be fed. The NGR cannot support its current population.

Every male 17 years old serves 8 years in the military .
Every female that is fit does the same thing .
The 30% population of NGR is sitting at 25 million people .
What do you think thier standing military overall numbers would be ?
A heck of a lot more then the CS could DREAM to field .

[Lenwen]

65% of the overall population of the NGR has cybernetics of some kind .
10% are patial reconstructioned Borgs ...
15% are Full conversion borgs ...
33% of the armored Division of the military is composed of full or partial cyborgs ...

and 25 million is only 30% of the overall NGR population . That puts the NGR total population over 100million easily ...

And EVERY 17 year old male is going to serve no less then 8 years .. Same for the Fit Females .

not a percent of the males and females ... but EVERY MALE AND FEMALE .....

100million people and the entire sociaty is a military based sociaty in one for or another .

And you think the CS will be able to deploy anything remotly close to the overall numbers the NGR could bring to bear in an all out war against each other ?

The only way the CS would win would be if They had to go to war as is .. meaning all thier other war's an what nots STILL going on ..

If placed in a war against each other and ONLY against each other . The NGR would mop the floor with the CS military hands down .. This wouldent even be a fair fight ..

[Lenwen]

Everytime we find ourselves on opposite sides of a discussion, your side is inevitably wrong. That is just the history of the comments you post and the comments I post in a debate.

Clearly cause I post with pg#'s an book names .. so clearly my comments that I post are obviously in error ..

Everytime you provoke me with sarcastic comments, I end up singling you out to show exactly where and how you are wrong.
First I'll do this with the "levels" comment. Show proof in the books stating that the average NGR grunt is 4-6 levels higher than a CS grunt. Infact, show any proof that they are even 1-2 levels higher.

Now beyond this, where in the books does it state that fighting combat is a major exp. earner? Your point is both wrong and extremely misinformed.

I am rereading the entire book . I know for a fact it states the difference in average lvls .. I mearly have to refind where it was at .

And if you honestly think that a prolonged war is not going to garner more Exp for the NGR military then the simple 6 month "seige" the CS placed on Tolkeen .. Your obviously alone in this train of thought ..

Second, your posts consistently contain little fact and abundant fiction; this does not help reinforce your position. That you rely on stating my thoughts on the matter are fiction shows you have only a slight grasp on the difference of the reality/fiction of the situation yourself. You do not post evidence - only comment on how others are wrong for no reason other than they didn't agree with you.

Sorry bud , Even YOU cant argue against Canon .. well you could , but it wouldent change the fact that you would be wrong .

You're basing your opinions on a couple of books stating that Germany has a higher tech. level, and that they fight gargoyles (which are a tough opponent), therefore they are themselves "tough". You have failed to realize that they are still fighting Gargoyles, and have been unable to gain ground on them edge-wise. The CS has been doing the same thing (fighting supernatural enemies), except that they have gained ground.

Actually I am basing my opinion on a 1 on 1 fight , with higher tech lvls , More Troops , Better P.A. Better Robot vehicles the CS is outclassed every concievable way .

Third (and finally), the NGR has not been fighting an all-out war against the Gargoyles for 80 years; they've been running into nests and such of gargoyle-civilians and calling them "battles". Actual Gargoyle-Warriors are to be feared; the PA of the NGR can barely handle even one actual warrior, let alone a 1/2 dozen gargoyle civilians - this means something. It means that the "war" NGR has fought is nothing more than an illusion; a farce. They haven't fought actual combatants geared for war. The CS has. "border patrols & skirmishes" is correct.

Sorry again your going against CANON ... Them Garg's have WAR MACHINES and POWER ARMORS for the littler Garg's . They use Railguns and Laser weaponry as well ...

I'd call that Geared for war .. makes me wonder what books you have been reading basing your opinions on stuff like what you said so far ..

And every book that I have personally read CLEARLY states the NGR is at WAR .. not hostile neighbor name calling or boarder skirmeshes .. but flat .. out and out .. WAR ....

[Lenwen]

And EVERY 17 year old male is going to serve no less then 8 years .. Same for the Fit Females .

not a percent of the males and females ... but EVERY MALE AND FEMALE .....

You might want to check that again as it is a bit wrong.

At age 17 all male citizens must serve 5 years in the military OR six years in one of Traix's manufacturing facilities.
Females are only encouraged they are NOT required.
Healthy male/female refugees must pledge eight years in the military to even be allowed in the NGR.

The NGR's human trops have been increased by 10 fold and any new refugee who is a healthy male or female of reasonable age must pledge 8 years of military duty to be allowed in toe NGR - World book 5 pg 17 .

Nearly 5 million human refugee's from the neighborring territories fled to them in droves - World Book 5 , pg 16 .

At the age of 17 all male citizens born in the NGR must serve 5 years in the military or 6 years as a laborer/technician at the triax manufacturing facility - World Book 5 pg 17 .

[dark brandon]

The NGR would mop the floor with the CS military hands down .. This wouldent even be a fair fight ..

I wouldn't say they would mop the floor with them. CS still has a very powerful psi-battalion that NGR doesn't have anything to protect against.

[Library Ogre]

The NGR would mop the floor with the CS military hands down .. This wouldent even be a fair fight ..

I wouldn't say they would mop the floor with them. CS still has a very powerful psi-battalion that NGR doesn't have anything to protect against.

REALLY?

[Balabanto]

I'm with Mark on this one. The NGR has D-bee hatred, but they're only second class citizens, and even that goes away under this key circumstance.

If you join the military, the NGR doesn't care once you become an officer. Rahu-Man Cyberknight, anyone? The code of the German Officer is legend. Let all who try to break it die in a duel. If you mock a colonel, even if he's a D-Bee, get ready to fight. And if you embarrass the military by doing that, get ready to fight the next guy, and the next guy, and the next guy.

The NGR has a much different series of rules than people think. If you want to fight the gargoyles, they'll throw you into the breach and let you accumulate the same ranks and medals as everyone else.

So in addition to the psychics issue, which is nonexistent, the CS would have to fight Triax D-Bees, Triax Psychics, and Triax mages. And most of the mages ARE human. And the Vanguard is no match for an organized, bureaucratized militaristic state with a magic division.

[Lenwen]

The NGR would mop the floor with the CS military hands down .. This wouldent even be a fair fight ..

I wouldn't say they would mop the floor with them. CS still has a very powerful psi-battalion that NGR doesn't have anything to protect against.

5 million human refugee's ... of which .. nearly 100% serve in the military at some capacity or another .

The numbers of JUST that 5 million would be enough nay .. MORE then enough to hand the CS thier collective butts in a 1 on 1 military WAR ...

Now since 25 million is aprox 30% of the TOTAL population of the NGR .. that puts them WELL over 100 million total and since the entire sociaty is GEARED twords the military/RnD type of sciences ..

Thats going to put thier standing military at or around 15-25 million people .

1 Psi - Bat against basically an entire army of around 2 million sent out with direct Orders of total annihilation of the Psi-Bat unit ... Dont care WHO you have in that unit .. its going down ...

And thats just the Units sent for that single Division ..

Thats not counting all the other millions of soilders out there doing thier thing against the rest of the CS military ..

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'm with Mark on this one. The NGR has D-bee hatred, but they're only second class citizens, and even that goes away under this key circumstance.

If you join the military, the NGR doesn't care once you become an officer. Rahu-Man Cyberknight, anyone? The code of the German Officer is legend. Let all who try to break it die in a duel. If you mock a colonel, even if he's a D-Bee, get ready to fight. And if you embarrass the military by doing that, get ready to fight the next guy, and the next guy, and the next guy.

The NGR has a much different series of rules than people think. If you want to fight the gargoyles, they'll throw you into the breach and let you accumulate the same ranks and medals as everyone else.

So in addition to the psychics issue, which is nonexistent, the CS would have to fight Triax D-Bees, Triax Psychics, and Triax mages. And most of the mages ARE human. And the Vanguard is no match for an organized, bureaucratized militaristic state with a magic division.

Are you writing NGR 2?

IIRC the Rahu-Man left when the NGR turned out all the D-Bee's year's ago, and D-Bee's aren't allowed in the military.

[dark brandon]

5 million human refugee's ... of which .. nearly 100% serve in the military at some capacity or another .

The numbers of JUST that 5 million would be enough nay .. MORE then enough to hand the CS thier collective butts in a 1 on 1 military WAR ...
]Now since 25 million is aprox 30% of the TOTAL population of the NGR .. that puts them WELL over 100 million total and since the entire sociaty is GEARED twords the military/RnD type of sciences ..

Thats going to put thier standing military at or around 15-25 million people .

1 Psi - Bat against basically an entire army of around 2 million sent out with direct Orders of total annihilation of the Psi-Bat unit ... Dont care WHO you have in that unit .. its going down ...

And thats just the Units sent for that single Division ..

Thats not counting all the other millions of soilders out there doing thier thing against the rest of the CS military ..

And if I was just 10 years younger, I could publicly adore that one young female singer...and If I was just 5 ft taller, I could have been a basketball player...It's not going to be a 1 on one war. Point is, you have to take their situations into consideration. The original poster made no mention of any special circumstances. Just what would happen if they went to war.

As for the psi-bat vs 2 million...You seem pretty freely to give that to Triax, but some 10,000 mages vs 1 million cs troopers and all of a sudden the mages should have won hands down. I think you argue against the CS to just argue against them. Regardless, The psi-battalion while eventually defeated along with the rest of the CS, would give Triax a nice bloody shirt.

NGR has plenty of people who have military training, but unfortunately, we have no idea on their resources. We can probably safely say they don't have quite the resources since, they haven't suited them all up in armor to make a final rush to kill the gargs, where as CS has armor and weapons to spare.

I am with you in that they'd win. See, we can be on the same side of an argument. In fact, This has got me thinking. If CS and NGR become strong allies, CS should ship the whole of their extra samas to NGR and they could fill them and use them. Then, when they are finished with the gargs, send them and the 4 million (whatever is left) troops to CS to help them finish retaking NA. Win-win situation.

[dark brandon]

I'm with Mark on this one. The NGR has D-bee hatred, but they're only second class citizens, and even that goes away under this key circumstance.

If you join the military, the NGR doesn't care once you become an officer. Rahu-Man Cyberknight, anyone? The code of the German Officer is legend. Let all who try to break it die in a duel. If you mock a colonel, even if he's a D-Bee, get ready to fight. And if you embarrass the military by doing that, get ready to fight the next guy, and the next guy, and the next guy.

The NGR has a much different series of rules than people think. If you want to fight the gargoyles, they'll throw you into the breach and let you accumulate the same ranks and medals as everyone else.

So in addition to the psychics issue, which is nonexistent, the CS would have to fight Triax D-Bees, Triax Psychics, and Triax mages. And most of the mages ARE human. And the Vanguard is no match for an organized, bureaucratized militaristic state with a magic division.

Are you writing NGR 2?

IIRC the Rahu-Man left when the NGR turned out all the D-Bee's year's ago, and D-Bee's aren't allowed in the military.

No, he's didn't. But I know who did write triax 2 (it's in K's hands now) We should all be excited...it'll answer alot of questions, have new toys...and be so awesome you'll go blind from awesomeness.

[Dustin Fireblade]

I'm with Mark on this one. The NGR has D-bee hatred, but they're only second class citizens, and even that goes away under this key circumstance.

If you join the military, the NGR doesn't care once you become an officer. Rahu-Man Cyberknight, anyone? The code of the German Officer is legend. Let all who try to break it die in a duel. If you mock a colonel, even if he's a D-Bee, get ready to fight. And if you embarrass the military by doing that, get ready to fight the next guy, and the next guy, and the next guy.

The NGR has a much different series of rules than people think. If you want to fight the gargoyles, they'll throw you into the breach and let you accumulate the same ranks and medals as everyone else.

So in addition to the psychics issue, which is nonexistent, the CS would have to fight Triax D-Bees, Triax Psychics, and Triax mages. And most of the mages ARE human. And the Vanguard is no match for an organized, bureaucratized militaristic state with a magic division.

Are you writing NGR 2?

IIRC the Rahu-Man left when the NGR turned out all the D-Bee's year's ago, and D-Bee's aren't allowed in the military.

No, he's didn't. But I know who did write triax 2 (it's in K's hands now)

I know - it was rhetorical.

[Lenwen]

And if I was just 10 years younger, I could publicly adore that one young female singer...and If I was just 5 ft taller, I could have been a basketball player...It's not going to be a 1 on one war. Point is, you have to take their situations into consideration. The original poster made no mention of any special circumstances. Just what would happen if they went to war.

And that is the way I personally portrayed the War . In a 1 on 1 situation trhe NGR would mop the floor with the CS . However if the CS decided to try to attack while the Garg's were on the offensive .. The NGR might unbelievably fall .. depending upon how severe the CS wanted to go .. it would take nearly an all out effort tho . Anything less and the NGR would survive the betrayal , and launch thier own counter offensive . ( tho the CS would never do such a thing to a human nation in the NGR's predicament (sp?))

As for the psi-bat vs 2 million...You seem pretty freely to give that to Triax, but some 10,000 mages vs 1 million cs troopers and all of a sudden the mages should have won hands down. I think you argue against the CS to just argue against them. Regardless, The psi-battalion while eventually defeated along with the rest of the CS, would give Triax a nice bloody shirt.

Not quite , It was 10,000 mages vrs the SAME Psi-Bat ... nearly identical number wise ... not 1 million Psi-Bat personal..

NGR has plenty of people who have military training, but unfortunately, we have no idea on their resources. We can probably safely say they don't have quite the resources since, they haven't suited them all up in armor to make a final rush to kill the gargs, where as CS has armor and weapons to spare.

The CS has in my personal opinion 1/10th the overall military force that the NGR has . So obviously thier going to have surplus while the NGR will not .

I am with you in that they'd win. See, we can be on the same side of an argument. In fact, This has got me thinking. If CS and NGR become strong allies, CS should ship the whole of their extra samas to NGR and they could fill them and use them. Then, when they are finished with the gargs, send them and the 4 million (whatever is left) troops to CS to help them finish retaking NA. Win-win situation.

Course we can , nuthing saying we cant . I just wont hand the CS every victory esp when in a situation like this . Not a single thing goes in FAVOR for the CS when they choose to go to war with the NGR ... Tech , Numbers , Devistation of weapons ... Ok maby perhaps overall resources ... outside of that .. the War would have to be won due to attrition by the CS ...

I like that proposition tho that is a good idea .. the cs DOES have something like 1.3million old style samas laying around gathering mothballs dont they ?

And then sending over 4 million troops would be nuthing for the NGR to do if you realize just how large thier army is .

[AzathothXy]

Even in musing the hypothetical, I don't see a CS and NGR war happening for at least several decades, possibly more. The CS 20 year plan only has it gaining a few more states in geography in North America. It'll take awhile before the CS runs into a situation where it can't really expand anymore, and has to look beyond its NA borders. In this hypothetical, I'm thinking if there is a war, its going to be Joseph that's running the show by then. By all accounts I can see, he's even worse than his dad, and diabolically devious and surgical.

In this sense, I think the war vs NGR would be a "intelligence community' kinda war. Secret war, instead of "We must crush you!". Filled with assassins, spies, covert operations, blackmail, poisonings, 'accidents' and the like. Basically the CS would focus on infiltrating the NGR's upper tiers, converting those they can to their cause, killing those who don't. With a long term goal of a largely peaceful absorption of the NGR into the CS. Peaceful in the sense that there weren't any bombing of cities, or rumbling of war machines, more like a total destruction and collapse of the NGR way of life, with the CS picking up the pieces and reconsolidating the remaining humans.

Or the NGR picking up the pieces.

[Samored II]

the NGr has a navy as well. for every 20th century carrier or CS built carrier, the NGR has two submersible LCT's that run about the size of the ticonderoga. for every escort vessel the CS has, the NGR has two missile cruisers.

the NGR ships have about 5x more mdc, pack about 10x the firepower, and carry about 4x the troop compliments.

seriously, read WB7.

as for transport vehicles..the DHT of the CS can be matched by a flight of 4 Dragonflies and 6 lightning VTOL's. they provide comparable transport capacity, comparable speed, and greater survivability (being multiple targets. loosing one will not loose the entire unit of troops) the above combination is also comparable in terms of cost.

You may want to re-check you figures. The NGR has eight Poisedon-class carriers. They could arrive in a NA theatre with 80 XM-280 fighters and, at best, 25,000 troops.

The fighter compliment of one CS carrier is 94 planes.

[Samored II]

And EVERY 17 year old male is going to serve no less then 8 years .. Same for the Fit Females .

not a percent of the males and females ... but EVERY MALE AND FEMALE .....

You might want to check that again as it is a bit wrong.

At age 17 all male citizens must serve 5 years in the military OR six years in one of Traix's manufacturing facilities.
Females are only encouraged they are NOT required.
Healthy male/female refugees must pledge eight years in the military to even be allowed in the NGR.

The NGR's human trops have been increased by 10 fold and any new refugee who is a healthy male or female of reasonable age must pledge 8 years of military duty to be allowed in toe NGR - World book 5 pg 17 .

Nearly 5 million human refugee's from the neighborring territories fled to them in droves - World Book 5 , pg 16 .

At the age of 17 all male citizens born in the NGR must serve 5 years in the military or 6 years as a laborer/technician at the triax manufacturing facility - World Book 5 pg 17 .

The absolute size of the NGR military is meaningless. The NGR can't transport any significant amount of troops into the NA theatre. Any landing they attempted would be defeated in detail.

[Prince Artemis]

Merlin, or rather the Alien intelligence, would be the ultimate winner, as it would give him an excuse to 'put boots on the ground' in North America for the 'cause of good'. Remember, england and the NGR are on friendly if uneasy terms.

[Samored II]

Merlin, or rather the Alien intelligence, would be the ultimate winner, as it would give him an excuse to 'put boots on the ground' in North America for the 'cause of good'. Remember, england and the NGR are on friendly if uneasy terms.

Provided there was a way for him/it to get said boots over the NA, yeah, could be.
Of course New Camelot troops aren't what I'd call first rate, especially operating outside of a magic heavy environment, but they'd be better than nothing.

[Dog_O_War]

Everytime we find ourselves on opposite sides of a discussion, your side is inevitably wrong. That is just the history of the comments you post and the comments I post in a debate.

Clearly cause I post with pg#'s an book names .. so clearly my comments that I post are obviously in error ..

That's just it; you do not post with pg. #'s and book names. So the answer is clearly a yes - you are in error.

Everytime you provoke me with sarcastic comments, I end up singling you out to show exactly where and how you are wrong.
First I'll do this with the "levels" comment. Show proof in the books stating that the average NGR grunt is 4-6 levels higher than a CS grunt. Infact, show any proof that they are even 1-2 levels higher.

Now beyond this, where in the books does it state that fighting combat is a major exp. earner? Your point is both wrong and extremely misinformed.

I am rereading the entire book . I know for a fact it states the difference in average lvls .. I mearly have to refind where it was at .

And if you honestly think that a prolonged war is not going to garner more Exp for the NGR military then the simple 6 month "seige" the CS placed on Tolkeen .. Your obviously alone in this train of thought ..

Post from any book, for any Palladium game where it says time spent = experience. That 6 month seige can be just as garnering of experience as a lifetime of farming, spell-casting, or soldiering at a remote military base.

Also, I'm still waiting on this mystical book and page number that contains the "fact" that NGR troops are 6-9 levels higher (on average).

Second, your posts consistently contain little fact and abundant fiction; this does not help reinforce your position. That you rely on stating my thoughts on the matter are fiction shows you have only a slight grasp on the difference of the reality/fiction of the situation yourself. You do not post evidence - only comment on how others are wrong for no reason other than they didn't agree with you.

Sorry bud , Even YOU cant argue against Canon .. well you could , but it wouldent change the fact that you would be wrong .

What canon am I arguing against? And again, books and page numbers = evidence. You saying, "You're wrong!" does not equal evidence.

You're basing your opinions on a couple of books stating that Germany has a higher tech. level, and that they fight gargoyles (which are a tough opponent), therefore they are themselves "tough". You have failed to realize that they are still fighting Gargoyles, and have been unable to gain ground on them edge-wise. The CS has been doing the same thing (fighting supernatural enemies), except that they have gained ground.

Actually I am basing my opinion on a 1 on 1 fight , with higher tech lvls , More Troops , Better P.A. Better Robot vehicles the CS is outclassed every concievable way .

Their "tech-level" means nothing in a fight. Look at the Xiticix - their melee weapons are basically concrete, and they're some of the best around.
As well, Triax has nothing in comparison with CS robots. The Abolisher alone is better than most every Triax robot in any book. Then we've got things like the Firestorm Mobile fortress. Or better yet, the SAMAS that the CS has. The Striker, the Super-SAM, the Smiling Jack - they are all cheap, well-armed models capable of duking it out with most (if not all) NGR PA.

Third (and finally), the NGR has not been fighting an all-out war against the Gargoyles for 80 years; they've been running into nests and such of gargoyle-civilians and calling them "battles". Actual Gargoyle-Warriors are to be feared; the PA of the NGR can barely handle even one actual warrior, let alone a 1/2 dozen gargoyle civilians - this means something. It means that the "war" NGR has fought is nothing more than an illusion; a farce. They haven't fought actual combatants geared for war. The CS has. "border patrols & skirmishes" is correct.

Sorry again your going against CANON ... Them Garg's have WAR MACHINES and POWER ARMORS for the littler Garg's . They use Railguns and Laser weaponry as well ...

Yeah, SOME of the little ones. But the majority of conflicts aren't against gargoyles in powered armour - they're against naked gargoyles without lasers and railguns. That's canon information.

I'd call that Geared for war .. makes me wonder what books you have been reading basing your opinions on stuff like what you said so far ..

And every book that I have personally read CLEARLY states the NGR is at WAR .. not hostile neighbor name calling or boarder skirmeshes .. but flat .. out and out .. WAR ....

Every book I've read clearly states the Xiticix are a dangerous and deadly opponent - possibly a bringer of the apocalypse, yet thousands of CS troops just walked into their territory and walked out.

Every book I've read clearly showed that Tolkeen had superior troops and only a minor numerical disadvantage, and yet they lost that war.

Basically these things that are clearly stated are not always what they appear to be. Their "war" is the real-world equivalent to India/Pakistan. The major conflicts last maybe a few weeks, and then the fighting dies down. Meanwhile a real war sees cities crumble, nations reformed, and time act as the determining factor in who will win the conflict.

Their "war" has clearly been skimishes along borders, as niether side has gained anything edge-wise in 80 years.