Coalition States and the New German Republic: Global War

[Cybermancer]

I'm going to skip all the debates and comments that have gone before and get right to my own answer to the OP's question.

Timeline:

Jan 15 110 PA: An group of adventurers loyal to the mighty Coalition States capture Erin Tarn and turn her over the the proper authorities. Being patriots, they refuse all reward and quietly fade into the background allowing the Emperor to claim both glory and victory against this dastardly foe of the CS.

Feb 01 110 PA: Erin Tarn's show trial begins with full pomp and ceremony. As this is a major propaganda coup for the CS, it is of course very public and broadcast to the fullest extent of their media capabilities. Copies of these broadcasts inevitably make their way to the New German Republic.

April 09 110 PA: Erin Tarn is publicly executed by Joseph Prosek himself.

April 10 110 PA: Riots in the streets of every major city in the NGR. The emporer and his son are burned in effigy repeatedly. Video copies of these demonstrations inevitably make their way back to the CS.

April 13 110PA: Under unbelievalbe pressure from it's citizens and barely holding back civil anarchy, the NGR government has no choice but to publicly condemn the execution. More, this condemnation is sent to their ally through official diplomatic channels.

April 14 110 PA: Triax goes one step further than it's government, cancelling all contracts with the CS.
-In the CS, outrage is expressed at their allies condemnation.
-In Free Quebec, public debates are held on the legitimacy of the trial and the question is asked, "Was Erin Tarn really so bad?" The Free Press in Free Quebec is voicing both sides of the debate. Political pundits are watching the interaction between the CS and the NGR with great interest. There is much tension.

April 29 110 PA: The emperor of the CS cancels all treaties with the NGR and declares them enemies of humanity in a public broadcast.

May 28 110 PA: The NGR strengthens it's trade agreements and non-agression treaties with Free Quebec.

May 29 110 PA: Free Quebec offers to be a mediator between the CS and the NGR. The government within Free Quebec has decided on a policy of neutrality in the issue although they plan to continue trade with both powers.

June 22 110 PA: A new, less CS friendly government takes power in the NGR. They have the popular support of the people and the full backing of Triax. Plans for a hypothetical war are discussed in private.

October 04 110 PA: An adventuring group loyal to the mighty CS empire explodes a powerful explosive in a civilian production plant owned and operated by Triax. The group takes very public credit for the action, claiming to be acting on behalf of the CS. Support for these claims is discovered in the forensic evidence of the explosion site.

November 11 110 PA: The NGR declares war on the CS.

Who wins?

I think it would be the NGR, though it would likely take a few years. I'd have to go over my books to support this however. The new material yet to be released in the next proposed NGR book would have a lot of impact on this conflict so the jury will have to remain out for now, so far as I'm concerned.

After I've done a little research, I may continue this hypothetical timeline.

[dark brandon]

The unfortunate thing is...despite how true it is...it really doesn't matter.

Only to some Brandon.. only to some..

Staying with Canon as a GM are we supposed to simply UP the NGR's overall capabilities ?

Or simply push back the advances the CS has ?

Cause simply put .. The NGR is (according to canon) Supposed to be MORE advanced then the CS in nearly EVERY way possible ..

The canon is simply that NGR hasn't advanced. If you want a canon answer, despite them being "more" advanced, that was in world book 5, where as world book 11 (CWC) has made them about even, and as canon, new material always trumps old material.

That's canon though. Which, if you were looking for a canon answer, is it. This discussion has come to a halt. Of course, you can see how frustrating relying on canon can be.

Triax "Should" be this and that...but since there is not an updated book, since there is no "rule" to upgrade, you can't have a discussion upon it. It's not going to be any kind of discussion beyond hypothesis, which means no one opinion is going to be more right or wrong. You can dismiss someones idea any more than you could dismiss your own.

BTW, it's not every...CS by and large is stated to be one of the most advance bio-research in the world. I think only one other creature on rifts earth is more advanced, the gene splicers.

[Lenwen]

The unfortunate thing is...despite how true it is...it really doesn't matter.

Only to some Brandon.. only to some..

Staying with Canon as a GM are we supposed to simply UP the NGR's overall capabilities ?

Or simply push back the advances the CS has ?

Cause simply put .. The NGR is (according to canon) Supposed to be MORE advanced then the CS in nearly EVERY way possible ..

The canon is simply that NGR hasn't advanced. If you want a canon answer, despite them being "more" advanced, that was in world book 5, where as world book 11 (CWC) has made them about even, and as canon, new material always trumps old material.

That's canon though. Which, if you were looking for a canon answer, is it. This discussion has come to a halt. Of course, you can see how frustrating relying on canon can be.

Triax "Should" be this and that...but since there is not an updated book, since there is no "rule" to upgrade, you can't have a discussion upon it. It's not going to be any kind of discussion beyond hypothesis, which means no one opinion is going to be more right or wrong. You can dismiss someones idea any more than you could dismiss your own.

BTW, it's not every...CS by and large is stated to be one of the most advance bio-research in the world. I think only one other creature on rifts earth is more advanced, the gene splicers.

I 100% agree haha which is sad haha .

I never said in Every , I said in Nearly every .. I know hands down the CS holds secrets the NGR would do anything for in the area of genetic research an what not .. Being able to litterally create Life .. an transform that life into what ever it is that you need be it animal grunts or specilized hunters .. that is in an of itself ... is a power few realize just HOW powerful it is ..

Good convoe heh .

[Dog_O_War]

It's interesting that everything was canon, canon, canon (cannon, cannon, cannon) until canon disproved your opinion. Now it's woulda, coulda, shoulda, and wait until the next book comes out. Seemingly rather than allow the facts to drive ones opinion; instead forcing the facts to fit ones opinion. Believing is seeing instead of seeing is believing.

He's got a point though - the NGR was always described as having a higher level of tech than the CS in the areas of cybernetics, bionics & robotics, and when World Book 5 came out, that was the case. Then CWC & Coalition Navy gave the CS a big power-boost, while nothing similar has happened with the NGR (except a small equipment infusion in Underseas). The general power creep of Rifts has largely left the NGR behind, while the CS has seen more regular updates to keep pace.

If he had a point, then the books would've reflected these sentiments - but they don't, didn't, and likely will continue to unimpress the rest of us.

A perfect example of this is Northern Gun. Their railgun sales are supposedly suffering due to the Triax 'Borg railgun. By all accounts the gun is inferior. It lacks the damage out-put and availability the NG-101 or 202 have. Their weight is a noticeable amount more, but the 'Borgs depicted using the Borg railgun can easily handle even the 202. That aside, the PA of North America are quite capable of handling the guns listed as well. There is no mechanical ruling offered that a Flying Titan will have problems with an NG-202, so why take the Triax gun?

Other things to consider is that Northern Gun makes a rifle capable of doing 1d4x10 for sale on the open market. The NGR has no rifle or other (hell the gun in question is better than the TX-Borg railgun as well) weapon for personal use to compete with that.

And why do I bring this up? Northern Gun is supposed to have "inferior" tech compared to the CS, and yet the existence of this weapon by-far proves that wrong too. The mechanics of the rules have proven the fluff wrong, therefore we cannot trust the fluff.

What this amounts to is that the books can describe a nation as having the greatest tech in the universe, but if their statistical data do not reflect this info., then it is as true as telling me my eyes are black, as written in my biography, when in-person you can see clearly see they are green.

When it comes to mechanical comparisons, you must have mechanical data to back your claims up. The current Triax books do not back up those claims of their superiority, therefore they are wrong. As well, a big power-boost for one faction in a book that is coming out in the future has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation as currently presented.

[glitterboy2098]

inferior and superior are not defined entirely by damage amounts and ranges. it can also reflect construction, cost, or even ergonomics. these are all intangible stuff compared to the RPG statistics, but should not be ignored from a rolepaly perspective. a chech built Ak-47 is inferior to a russian built Ak-47, despite the two have otherwise identical damage and range capabilities. merely because the russian built model generally has better construction and sturdier materials.

the M-4 carbine has inferior range and stopping power to the Ak-47, but the M-4 is generally considered a superior weapon due to it's better construction, lesser recoil and ease of handling.


as for comparing canon.....you can't in this instance. because the latest run of CS stuff is from PA 105+, while the last run of NGR stuff dates from PA 102!

so while you can do a valid comparison of pre-CWC equipment to the NGR equipment of WB5, you can't do a valid comparison of WB5 equipment to WB21 equipment. it's not unlike trying to argue about modern warfare between major powers by comparing modern tanks the the veitnam war era stuff of the other side. it makes for a highly inaccurate analysis.


now, the NGR materiel from the rifter, which sparked the whole Triax 2 thing, could be compared, in limited fashion due to it's limited scope, to the stuff from WB21. and the rifter material shows the NGr has been advancing almost as much as the CS has.

[Dog_O_War]

inferior and superior are not defined entirely by damage amounts and ranges. it can also reflect construction, cost, or even ergonomics. these are all intangible stuff compared to the RPG statistics, but should not be ignored from a rolepaly perspective. a chech built Ak-47 is inferior to a russian built Ak-47, despite the two have otherwise identical damage and range capabilities. merely because the russian built model generally has better construction and sturdier materials.

In real-life, yes.
In versimilitude, no.

The game is versimilitude, and therefore must have the appropriate mechanical back-up.

as for comparing canon.....you can't in this instance. because the latest run of CS stuff is from PA 105+, while the last run of NGR stuff dates from PA 102!

Um, we can - and have. The only thing we cannot do is compare what could be with what is. That a new Triax item hasn't come out since... whenever, and the Coalition has had new items put out is not a flaw others had thought of when this debate started.

And even then, what or who's to say that this new Triax book isn't dated for PA 114 or later? Then will the comparison still be fair?

As is, we must work with what is available.

[Dog_O_War]

While I don't have any objections with your bigger point (which, in many respects, I agree with), remember that Triax railguns are a bit more accurate than most things that Northern Gun puts out, and often loaded with DU rounds, which increase their damage by a fair bit. The final result is, for military Triax pilots, a weapon that generally outperforms the NG equivalent and which can apparently be easily used akimbo in pairs or with a similar weapon in Triax's main combat vehicle.

NG weapons, as well as Coalition weapons can be loaded with DU rounds as well, so the point is moot.

"easily used akimbo" is false. A PA cannot easily use any weapon akimbo, as the whole paired shooting rules say otherwise. That you could "easily" mount a pair of borg railguns onto a vehicle has no mechanical backing to support Triax over any other company's weapons for the ease of this task. I mean hell, if this is now the comparison then North America wins hands-down for sure in all relavant comparisons as they have the most firearms on the planet. You could rig up 100 C-10 rifles to a firing platform and call it the best gun in the universe because it did 2d6x100, or whatever the total amounts to. But we're avoiding this because such comparisons are broken and biased.

[glitterboy2098]

inferior and superior are not defined entirely by damage amounts and ranges. it can also reflect construction, cost, or even ergonomics. these are all intangible stuff compared to the RPG statistics, but should not be ignored from a rolepaly perspective. a chech built Ak-47 is inferior to a russian built Ak-47, despite the two have otherwise identical damage and range capabilities. merely because the russian built model generally has better construction and sturdier materials.

In real-life, yes.
In versimilitude, no.

The game is versimilitude, and therefore must have the appropriate mechanical back-up.

Versimilitude: the appearance of being true or real.

so if something is verisimilar, it has qualities that appear to be real. so if rifts is trying to be verisimilar, things like construction, costs, and ergonomics in quipment is a factor, as those increase it's appearance of being real.

now, if your roll-playing and not concerned with being verisimilar, you can rely entirely on the mehcanical statitics for all your arguments.

in a verisimilar game world, the hard statistics of damage and range have little to do with the reletive advancement of the technology.

compare if you will the T-72 to the M60 Patton, both are comtemporaries, from the 1960s. the T-72 has superior armor (better thickness and sloping) and firepower (125mm gun) than the M-60 (which packed only a 105mm gun). in terms of mobility, the T-72 had superior speed and range.

but the M-60 was technologically the superior tank. because it made use of gun stabilization, passive nightvision systems, and superior targeting systems. it's design was also easier to maintain, and it was easier to drive.


just because a unit has better firepower or protection doesn't mean that unit has superior technology. it could easily mean the designers just emphaisised those things above other elements of the design, like ease of maintenence or useability.

[Samored II]

the CS lost everything and the 1990s era tech crap the CS has should not be better then the tech NGR has.
It's nothing more then writers one upman ship "my stuff is better then your stuff".
I'll bet the next NGR books hardware seriously out performs the CS gear.

Exactly .. and the only explanation givin as to how the CS has such great weapons is "cause thier constantly at war "

Yet the same treatment and just as large tech advancements are NOT givin to the NGR who really HAS been at war for over 80 years ...

Its as if the NGR stagnented off ... and the CS is getting more an more Tech jumps then ever ... with out any sound resonable explanation for both ..

And from what I am personally hearing .. that NGR book is going to make the CS stuff look bad . I for 1 cant wait for this book .

It's interesting that everything was canon, canon, canon (cannon, cannon, cannon) until canon disproved your opinion. Now it's woulda, coulda, shoulda, and wait until the next book comes out. Seemingly rather than allow the facts to drive ones opinion; instead forcing the facts to fit ones opinion. Believing is seeing instead of seeing is believing.

He's got a point though - the NGR was always described as having a higher level of tech than the CS in the areas of cybernetics, bionics & robotics, and when World Book 5 came out, that was the case. Then CWC & Coalition Navy gave the CS a big power-boost, while nothing similar has happened with the NGR (except a small equipment infusion in Underseas). The general power creep of Rifts has largely left the NGR behind, while the CS has seen more regular updates to keep pace.

Not necessarily. In some kind of anti-CS fervor, what some keep disregarding is the fact that militaries are designed to fight wars. The NGR has been locked in combat with the Gargoyle and Brodkil for a long period of time. They have, naturally and logically, optimized their weapons, armor, and tactics to fight the war they are currently in. The CS faces an entirely different set of tactical and strategic obstacles and has designed their war making efforts accordingly. I don't care what your tech level is, if you've built an army to fight a horde of MDC beasties with the strategic/tactical sense of a flock of birds, you're going to get slaughtered if you suddenly go up against an army designed to fight a technological foe. Thus, the NGR doesn't have anti-submarine systems, air superiority fighters, stealth bombers, heliocopter torpedo gunships, strategic nuclear weapons, dog boys, or Psi-Batt equilivents. Not because they are somehow inferior to the CS, but because they have made a rational choice not to develop such assets out of a lack of tangible need.

[Talavar]

Generally speaking, from what I understand, CS has more interaction with most player groups than other places. But, like many things, it's dependant on what I think sells and what is written.

Many can complain about Triax taking a back seat, but that's because there were no writers for it. For whatever reason, some didn't take on the task, and Kevin himself had other priorities.

Complaining that anything in the rifts world except North America has taken a back seat is a pointless argument. NGR isn't the only nation that needs an "update", There are many that could use one as well. There are just not enough talented writers, enough hours in a day and enough want to do this.

Luck for everyone, someone did take up the task of updating NGR.

Oh, I understand why the NGR isn't as up to date as the Coalition material, and I'm actually in favour of it - I'd rather have regular updates for North America than anywhere else in Rifts Earth, and I'd trade 3/4s of the World Books for books on the handful of important locations in North America that haven't been detailed yet (Lazlo, Chi-town, other CS states). I was just calling it as I sees it.

If he had a point, then the books would've reflected these sentiments - but they don't, didn't, and likely will continue to unimpress the rest of us.

A perfect example of this is Northern Gun. Their railgun sales are supposedly suffering due to the Triax 'Borg railgun. By all accounts the gun is inferior. It lacks the damage out-put and availability the NG-101 or 202 have. Their weight is a noticeable amount more, but the 'Borgs depicted using the Borg railgun can easily handle even the 202. That aside, the PA of North America are quite capable of handling the guns listed as well. There is no mechanical ruling offered that a Flying Titan will have problems with an NG-202, so why take the Triax gun?

That's a nice skewed example you've pulled out about the rail guns - by the same reasoning, Wilk's, Wellington Industries & Northern Gun have better technology than the Coalition as well, because they produce some more damaging personal weapons.

I said the books described the NGR as superior in bionics & robotics technology, and at the time of WB5's publication, the armour, cyborgs, power armour and giant robots of the NGR are statistically superior to those of the Coalition. That's no longer true, due to the improvements presented in CWC, but it was true previously. So the books did reflect Lenwen's point, whether or not that impresses you or the "us" you apparently speak for. Since the books still describe the NGR as superior in those areas, expecting something of an update for NGR tech. is pretty reasonable - but we'll have to wait for Triax 2 to see for certain.

[Dog_O_War]

That's a nice skewed example you've pulled out about the rail guns - by the same reasoning, Wilk's, Wellington Industries & Northern Gun have better technology than the Coalition as well, because they produce some more damaging personal weapons.

Skewed? No. But you do add weight and further evidence to support the fact that fluff does not trump RAW when it comes to mechanical facts.
See, the fluff of the game states that the Coalition is the most advanced nation in North America, with no sub-text as to a speciality. Therefore they are the best at everything, and yet as you have pointed out, the crunch disagrees.
That was my point.

I said the books described the NGR as superior in bionics & robotics technology, and at the time of WB5's publication, the armour, cyborgs, power armour and giant robots of the NGR are statistically superior to those of the Coalition. That's no longer true, due to the improvements presented in CWC, but it was true previously.

Except that it didn't.
The Coalition had statistically superior robots before CWC.

Since the books still describe the NGR as superior in those areas, expecting something of an update for NGR tech. is pretty reasonable - but we'll have to wait for Triax 2 to see for certain.

Pretty reasonable is to debate the current facts, not the "what ifs".

[Lenwen]

The Coalition had statistically superior robots before CWC.

Yeah right .....

The only robt in the arsenal of the CS prior to CWC is the Enforcer ...

as per the main book .

Unless I missed something .. Is the Enforcer even close to anything in WB-5 ?

[Talavar]

That's a nice skewed example you've pulled out about the rail guns - by the same reasoning, Wilk's, Wellington Industries & Northern Gun have better technology than the Coalition as well, because they produce some more damaging personal weapons.

Skewed? No. But you do add weight and further evidence to support the fact that fluff does not trump RAW when it comes to mechanical facts.
See, the fluff of the game states that the Coalition is the most advanced nation in North America, with no sub-text as to a speciality. Therefore they are the best at everything, and yet as you have pointed out, the crunch disagrees.
That was my point.

So in your games Wellington Industries is the technological powerhouse of Rifts Earth because they produce the most powerful personal weapons?

I had this debate in another thread, but standardized military gear isn't necessarily going to be the best a nation's tech. level could produce, CS or NGR. Northern Gun, Wellington, & Wilks can produce more powerful weapons, and if they're very expensive, or of limited use for most people due to weight concerns, etc., they can still make a profit on them. The CS and NGR probably wouldn't bother producing the WI Viper ramjet machine gun for example, even though it does more damage than most railguns, because the ammo is much more expensive than railgun ammo, and few in their militaries are able to use the damn thing anyway. The fluff text stands.

I said the books described the NGR as superior in bionics & robotics technology, and at the time of WB5's publication, the armour, cyborgs, power armour and giant robots of the NGR are statistically superior to those of the Coalition. That's no longer true, due to the improvements presented in CWC, but it was true previously.

Except that it didn't.
The Coalition had statistically superior robots before CWC.

And those would be? The CS had the UAR Enforcer and the IAR Abolisher for robots before CWC, and the Samas for power armour. Statistically, the Ultimax, the Triax glitter boy, the Super-jager, the Dynamax, the Black Knight, the Dragonwing and the Devastator are all superior to both CS robots in a variety of ways, and the Triax military version of the predator power armour is better in some ways than the CS Samas (higher MDC for one). The standard jager is better in some ways than the CS robots, depending on weapons package.

Or maybe you mean skelebots? Because the Triax dyna-bots & others are statistically better than the CS ones from the original Rifts Sourcebook as well.

[Lenwen]

NG weapons, as well as Coalition weapons can be loaded with DU rounds as well, so the point is moot.

Can be and ARE does not mean the same thing .. no matter how skewered you wish to make the claim .

Fact is the CS is as of yet unaware of the power that Depleated Uranium rounds produce against the flesh an blood of the Supernatural bodies an the hindering of thier powers of said supernatural bodies .

[Dog_O_War]

That's a nice skewed example you've pulled out about the rail guns - by the same reasoning, Wilk's, Wellington Industries & Northern Gun have better technology than the Coalition as well, because they produce some more damaging personal weapons.

Skewed? No. But you do add weight and further evidence to support the fact that fluff does not trump RAW when it comes to mechanical facts.
See, the fluff of the game states that the Coalition is the most advanced nation in North America, with no sub-text as to a speciality. Therefore they are the best at everything, and yet as you have pointed out, the crunch disagrees.
That was my point.

So in your games Wellington Industries is the technological powerhouse of Rifts Earth because they produce the most powerful personal weapons?

No they aren't. I had to re-write the statistics of every firearm in/weapon system in the game, but atleast they now mesh properly with the fluff.

I had this debate in another thread, but standardized military gear isn't necessarily going to be the best a nation's tech. level could produce, CS or NGR. Northern Gun, Wellington, & Wilks can produce more powerful weapons, and if they're very expensive, or of limited use for most people due to weight concerns, etc., they can still make a profit on them. The CS and NGR probably wouldn't bother producing the WI Viper ramjet machine gun for example, even though it does more damage than most railguns, because the ammo is much more expensive than railgun ammo, and few in their militaries are able to use the damn thing anyway. The fluff text stands.

Well technically speaking, the JA-9 is still the best gun in the game thanks to the wonderful rules system we have.
It's a comparably-priced laser rifle with a 4000 ft range, and weighs nothing compared to a railgun. You can rig up 5 of them to fire in sinq for same price as an NG-202, and they have the same range and damage, except that it weighs fractions less, and can be hooked up to a nuclear power supply for virtually unlimited shots.
But that's a break in the system, not that the gun itself is actually better. Really, the CS or any military could (should) manufacture weapons similar in design to this, as it's the cheapest (both monetarily and meta-game-ily) to beat the system.
Ork SupaKustomMastaBlasta ftw.

Except that it didn't.
The Coalition had statistically superior robots before CWC.

And those would be? The CS had the UAR Enforcer and the IAR Abolisher for robots before CWC, and the Samas for power armour. Statistically, the Ultimax, the Triax glitter boy, the Super-jager, the Dynamax, the Black Knight, the Dragonwing and the Devastator are all superior to both CS robots in a variety of ways, and the Triax military version of the predator power armour is better in some ways than the CS Samas (higher MDC for one). The standard jager is better in some ways than the CS robots, depending on weapons package.

Well there's the Spider Skull-Walker, which has a weapons range comparable to that of the Glitterboys' Boomgun, except that thanks to multiple operators it has more attacks/combat actions. The NGR only recently got their Glitterboy, so pre-CWC the Spider Skull-Walker basically trumped anything the NGR could throw at it thanks to a superior weapons system.

And the Abolisher Has Similarly-ranged weapons that cover all angles, so it could fire its cannons against multiple targets, sinking in 4 dual-shots at three different targets, or split it up so that a pair of targets could receive 3 shots 4 times per round. Meanwhile the Ultimax can't even jump, so it's easily lost as far as PA is concerned. You can basically kite it with a hit&run tactic, meaning that the thing is beaten by a Juicer in nearly any city-fight scenario. Not the greatest PA.

Next up is the "mighty" Jager. The thing cost what, 11 million for the suit+weapons system? You could buy 9 SAMAS or a couple Spider Skull-Walkers for that price. Hell, at that price, you could buy 8 SAMAS and have enough cash left over to train 8 pilots for those SAMAS, who now have 8 times the attacks of this supposedly "superior" Jager.
I would compare the Jager to the Tiger tank of WWII, and the SAMAS to the Sherman, except that these Sherman are all mounting weapons of comparable unpf to this Tiger - imagine how that would've changed the results of the war if the Shermans had a 76mm cannon to begin with?

More to the point, the Jager also lacks the ability to effectively engage high arial targets, or targets over water, as it lacks the mobility the SAMAS has. And it costs 11 million! Not very cost-effective for what they got.

Really, Triax is manufacturing weapons that cost noticeably more for products that do not work noticeably better. Their quality does not beat he CS's quantity for one, and as I said - weapons such as the Abolisher and the Spider Skull-Walker offer that extra edge with their weapons systems.

That's the statistics of it.

[Dog_O_War]

NG weapons, as well as Coalition weapons can be loaded with DU rounds as well, so the point is moot.

Can be and ARE does not mean the same thing .. no matter how skewered you wish to make the claim .

Show me the RAW that states all Triax railguns are always loaded with DU rounds.

Can be and ARE do not mean the same thing, no matter how skewed YOU wish to make the claim.

Fact is the CS is as of yet unaware of the power that Depleated Uranium rounds produce against the flesh an blood of the Supernatural bodies an the hindering of thier powers of said supernatural bodies .

Fact is the CS is aware, and do not use against anything short of dragons as they really don't want to irradiate the place they live in.

[dark brandon]

Fact is the CS is as of yet unaware of the power that Depleated Uranium rounds produce against the flesh an blood of the Supernatural bodies an the hindering of thier powers of said supernatural bodies .

Fact is the CS is aware, and do not use against anything short of dragons as they really don't want to irradiate the place they live in.

I believe the CS is aware of DU rounds as of SoT. I'd have to go digging, but I do recall seeing it.

[Lenwen]

Well there's the Spider Skull-Walker, which has a weapons range comparable to that of the Glitterboys' Boomgun, except that thanks to multiple operators it has more attacks/combat actions. The NGR only recently got their Glitterboy, so pre-CWC the Spider Skull-Walker basically trumped anything the NGR could throw at it thanks to a superior weapons system.

Spider Skull Walker would pose no threat to several of the NGR robots .. Your honesty reaching now .. an its embarrasing to see ...

Skull Walker vrs Dynamax = Dynamax owns the Skull walker .. hands down
Skull Walker vrs Black Knight = Walker would win .. to much ground to get TO the Walker for the Black Knight.
Skull Walker vrs Dragon Wing = Dragon wing would mop the floor with the Walker hands down.
Skull Walker vrs Devistator = no contest .. the Devistator could litterally take out 6 Skull walkers at the same time or close to it ..

Jager vrs Skull walker ( equiped with the TX-871MM drum ) means that Skull walker and several others are toast . 48 missles comming at you from 5 miles out your dead ..
Jager vrs Abolisher ( equiped with the TX-871MM drum ) means that Abolisher an several others are toast . 48 missles comming at you from 5 miles out .. your dead ..

And the Abolisher Has Similarly-ranged weapons that cover all angles, so it could fire its cannons against multiple targets, sinking in 4 dual-shots at three different targets, or split it up so that a pair of targets could receive 3 shots 4 times per round. Meanwhile the Ultimax can't even jump, so it's easily lost as far as PA is concerned.

Aboliser vrs Dynamax = Dynamax wins hands down . Its weapons systems are simply too good Abolisher wouldent even get Close to the Dynamax with out getting taken down ...
Abolisher vrs Black Knight = Abolisher would destroy the Black Knight for the same reasons Dynamax would own the Abolisher

Abolisher vrs Dragonwin = Dragonwing will win this easily enough . Threw its flight system . And with it being able to fly at mach 2 it could litterally do straffing runs all day on that Abolisher with little to no chance of the Abolisher to hitting the Dragonwing ...

Abolisher vrs Devistator = Devistator weapons systems include medium range missles makes that 10,000 foot range of the abolisher obsolete ... Devistator will make mince meat outta the Abolisher ...

Abolisher vrs Jager with its TX-871MM drum = Jager hands down launching 48 missles at the Abolisher outside of the range of the Abolishers best weapon is obviously going to take out that abolisher with ease ..

Not to mention I have checked BOTH my black hardcover RMB and my Rue .. looking FOR the Abolisher stats .. I noticed that the abolisher was not in either of them an low an behold its in CWC .. so basically no abolisher prior to CWC .. so there goes the best Robot you had to offer ...

Next up is the "mighty" Jager. The thing cost what, 11 million for the suit+weapons system? You could buy 9 SAMAS or a couple Spider Skull-Walkers for that price. Hell, at that price, you could buy 8 SAMAS and have enough cash left over to train 8 pilots for those SAMAS, who now have 8 times the attacks of this supposedly "superior" Jager.
I would compare the Jager to the Tiger tank of WWII, and the SAMAS to the Sherman, except that these Sherman are all mounting weapons of comparable unpf to this Tiger - imagine how that would've changed the results of the war if the Shermans had a 76mm cannon to begin with?

Again , The Jager with its TX-871 Drum would also easily take out those 8 yes 8 samas .. 48 divided by 8 = 6 missles per samas which btw is WAY OVERKILL for the sams overall MDC ..

So the Jager is better then the Samas .. as shown ..

Really, Triax is manufacturing weapons that cost noticeably more for products that do not work noticeably better. Their quality does not beat he CS's quantity for one, and as I said - weapons such as the Abolisher and the Spider Skull-Walker offer that extra edge with their weapons systems.

That's the statistics of it.

No thats not the statistics of it .. Thats you putting Robots up against P.A. (Jager) and your "opinion"

1) - Your pitting the skull walker up against a Jager .. not the REAL Robots it would face ... I did that for you an shown you who would be the winner in a straight up fight against each of the NGR's Robots ...

2) - The Abolisher did not come out till CWC .. unless I missed it but as I stated previously ..

I went threw my old black hardcover Rule Book and did not see it .. then went threw the Rue book an still did not see it thus my conclusion is that prior to the CWC ... The CS in effect did NOT have the Abolisher .. I very well could be wrong , I based that desicion upon the fact of the books that I personally have an it might be in something I as of yet do not have.

3) - World Book 5 (Triax & the NGR ) pg # 45-48 . Discuss's the Glitterboy . So yes NGR in fact HAD Glitterboy tech ( an the ability to create MORE G.B.'s ) prior to thier alliance with F.Q.

[Dog_O_War]

Well there's the Spider Skull-Walker, which has a weapons range comparable to that of the Glitterboys' Boomgun, except that thanks to multiple operators it has more attacks/combat actions. The NGR only recently got their Glitterboy, so pre-CWC the Spider Skull-Walker basically trumped anything the NGR could throw at it thanks to a superior weapons system.

Spider Skull Walker would pose no threat to several of the NGR robots .. Your honesty reaching now .. an its embarrasing to see ...

except that the scenario would likely be several Walkers versus a single NGR robot.

Jager vrs Skull walker ( equiped with the TX-871MM drum ) means that Skull walker and several others are toast . 48 missles comming at you from 5 miles out your dead ..
Jager vrs Abolisher ( equiped with the TX-871MM drum ) means that Abolisher an several others are toast . 48 missles comming at you from 5 miles out .. your dead ..

Abolisher has it's own missiles.
And besides that; missiles can be shot.
And besides that; you're expending thousands of credits to deal with one challenge before having to go back and reload. That and the missile-drum is not the standard; you're pitting 1 in 4 available weapon systems against every challenge, which is disingenuous and a skewed comparison.

And the Abolisher Has Similarly-ranged weapons that cover all angles, so it could fire its cannons against multiple targets, sinking in 4 dual-shots at three different targets, or split it up so that a pair of targets could receive 3 shots 4 times per round. Meanwhile the Ultimax can't even jump, so it's easily lost as far as PA is concerned.

Aboliser vrs Dynamax = Dynamax wins hands down . Its weapons systems are simply too good Abolisher wouldent even get Close to the Dynamax with out getting taken down ...

Why would the Abolisher want to "get close"? The cannons on it are more than capable of just destroying the Dynamax at range. The melee capabilities are meant for when enemy giant robots and large MDC creatures get close, not to go in gun-ho.

Abolisher vrs Dragonwin = Dragonwing will win this easily enough . Threw its flight system . And with it being able to fly at mach 2 it could litterally do straffing runs all day on that Abolisher with little to no chance of the Abolisher to hitting the Dragonwing ...

Except with every gun tacked onto the thing. And that it takes only a single round for the Abolisher to completely eliminate the MDC of a Dragonwing, where as the reverse is not true.

Abolisher vrs Devistator = Devistator weapons systems include medium range missles makes that 10,000 foot range of the abolisher obsolete ... Devistator will make mince meat outta the Abolisher ...

See my sig for the face-palm I'm making at this comment.

Abolisher vrs Jager with its TX-871MM drum = Jager hands down launching 48 missles at the Abolisher outside of the range of the Abolishers best weapon is obviously going to take out that abolisher with ease ..

Again, 1 in 4 - and that does not explain how this Jager magically does not get shot at with the Abolisher's missiles. Which out-range the Jager.

Not to mention I have checked BOTH my black hardcover RMB and my Rue .. looking FOR the Abolisher stats .. I noticed that the abolisher was not in either of them an low an behold its in CWC .. so basically no abolisher prior to CWC .. so there goes the best Robot you had to offer ...

The book Free Quebec has an Abolisher variant; the Abolisher Prime. The conflict of FQ seperating happened before SoT. The Coalition did not give FQ these Abolisher plans after the fact, meaning that the Abolisher was apart of the Coalition forces before the SoT ever happened. That and it's in the older edition books; again, before the SoT.

Again , The Jager with its TX-871 Drum would also easily take out those 8 yes 8 samas .. 48 divided by 8 = 6 missles per samas which btw is WAY OVERKILL for the sams overall MDC ..

Again, this is only 1 in 4, and again, you haven't accounted for the SAMAS firing it's own missiles and then retreating out of range (which it can do).

So the Jager is better then the Samas .. as shown ..

You make comments, and they clearly show you have no idea what you're talking about, as well as show you have zero ability in making a fair comparison.

[Lenwen]

You make comments, and they clearly show you have no idea what you're talking about, as well as show you have zero ability in making a fair comparison.

Clearly .. since the Abolisher again .. was not developed prior to CWC ... means the only two robot vehicles prior to the CWC book the CS had ...
1- Enforcer ..
2- Skull Walker ..

Both were and still are outmatched by nearly everything Robot wise that the NGR has in world book 5 .

You were trying to pit them against each other .. then as I went threw an with out even trying hard showed everyone on the baords that the Skull walker would get owned by all but the Black Knight Robot armors ..

You then change tactics by saying the Skull walker will be with more then itself ...

*** for tat ...

Just as that walker wont be alone .. neither will them Dragon wings , Devistators , Glitter boy's ( again you had no responce to the fact that NGR infact HAD GB's to begin with ..) as well as the Dynamax ..

BTW .. did you happen to read where it says the only way to the Skull walkers main rail gun canons is to move the Death head thier mounted on .. it can rotate 360Degrees .. but can only move up and down at a fixed position of 90 Degree's .

That more then anything tells me a Dragonwing would own the skull walker 10/10 times in a fight .. hate it for you .. thats just simple logic right there ..

Or am I wrong yet again according to only .....

You ..

which make me laugh.

**EDIT
Another thing .. since when can the Abolisher lock all its barrals on a single target ? there are 6 of them an thier all in a fixed position with a swivel that can rotate in a 360 degree rotation.

So tell me .. how are the two on the side of the robot going to lock onto the same target as the front two ..
And then tell me how the back two are going to even come close to being able to lock onto the front two canons targets please ..

This should be a GOOD read ..

*P*S*
The Abolisher in my CWC listing .. does not have Missles .. as per your claim .

[Lenwen]

Again, 1 in 4 - and that does not explain how this Jager magically does not get shot at with the Abolisher's missiles. Which out-range the Jager.

**EDIT : Where did you get the 1 in 4 ratio from ? And even then with the military of the NGR being no less then 5-1 ratio of what the CS has .. I'm relativly sure even IF those 1-4 ratio's were canon it would STILL be able to have more Jagars equiped with that Missle Drum then the entire Population of Samas for the CS could bere to arms ..

Again , The Jager with its TX-871 Drum would also easily take out those 8 yes 8 samas .. 48 divided by 8 = 6 missles per samas which btw is WAY OVERKILL for the sams overall MDC ..

Again, this is only 1 in 4, and again, you haven't accounted for the SAMAS firing it's own missiles and then retreating out of range (which it can do).

Exept the fact that there are two mini rockets with a range of "about" 1 mile .. forarms of the Samas (oldstyle since were talking pre CWC here )

Against the range of the Missles on the Jager Drum which is 5 miles ... means by the time the SAMAS got into fireing range of its own weapons systems .. they would have already been shot down ..

And your telling me that I am the one who cant put up a competent and or Fair assesment of the systems in question ?

REALLY ?

[Lenwen]

Not to mention I have checked BOTH my black hardcover RMB and my Rue .. looking FOR the Abolisher stats .. I noticed that the abolisher was not in either of them an low an behold its in CWC .. so basically no abolisher prior to CWC .. so there goes the best Robot you had to offer ...

The book Free Quebec has an Abolisher variant; the Abolisher Prime. The conflict of FQ seperating happened before SoT. The Coalition did not give FQ these Abolisher plans after the fact, meaning that the Abolisher was apart of the Coalition forces before the SoT ever happened. That and it's in the older edition books; again, before the SoT.

I believe the debat was over what the CS had in its original core rule book to what the NGR had as of World Book 5 NGR & Triax .

Now your trying to say that World book 22 Free Quebec has its own variants on the Abolisher is the same thing as the CS having the Abolisher prior to world book 11 ?

If anything that proves my point even further ..

How you going to try to use World book 22 to prove the CS had something in its core rule book prior to the NGR world book 5 ?

Symatics ? Really ? come on now this one is a losing debat .. show me where the CS had the Abolisher prior to CWC .. pg# an book please .. for posterity's sake .. ofcourse ..

Just a funny side note .. I happened to glance at the "Abolisher Prime" as the FQ calls it , It says it has 120 of them from when FQ was a CS member .. outside of that it flat out says for more information on the Abolisher ... Check out World Book :11 , Coalition War Campaign pages 134-137 .

Just thought that was a little not meshy with what your trying to say ...

[Nxla666]

Len the Abolisher was introduced in Source Book 1, original print, so it pre-dates CWC by a while.

[Talavar]

Except that it didn't.
The Coalition had statistically superior robots before CWC.

And those would be? The CS had the UAR Enforcer and the IAR Abolisher for robots before CWC, and the Samas for power armour. Statistically, the Ultimax, the Triax glitter boy, the Super-jager, the Dynamax, the Black Knight, the Dragonwing and the Devastator are all superior to both CS robots in a variety of ways, and the Triax military version of the predator power armour is better in some ways than the CS Samas (higher MDC for one). The standard jager is better in some ways than the CS robots, depending on weapons package.

Well there's the Spider Skull-Walker, which has a weapons range comparable to that of the Glitterboys' Boomgun, except that thanks to multiple operators it has more attacks/combat actions. The NGR only recently got their Glitterboy, so pre-CWC the Spider Skull-Walker basically trumped anything the NGR could throw at it thanks to a superior weapons system.

And the Abolisher Has Similarly-ranged weapons that cover all angles, so it could fire its cannons against multiple targets, sinking in 4 dual-shots at three different targets, or split it up so that a pair of targets could receive 3 shots 4 times per round. Meanwhile the Ultimax can't even jump, so it's easily lost as far as PA is concerned. You can basically kite it with a hit&run tactic, meaning that the thing is beaten by a Juicer in nearly any city-fight scenario. Not the greatest PA.

Next up is the "mighty" Jager. The thing cost what, 11 million for the suit+weapons system? You could buy 9 SAMAS or a couple Spider Skull-Walkers for that price. Hell, at that price, you could buy 8 SAMAS and have enough cash left over to train 8 pilots for those SAMAS, who now have 8 times the attacks of this supposedly "superior" Jager.
I would compare the Jager to the Tiger tank of WWII, and the SAMAS to the Sherman, except that these Sherman are all mounting weapons of comparable unpf to this Tiger - imagine how that would've changed the results of the war if the Shermans had a 76mm cannon to begin with?

More to the point, the Jager also lacks the ability to effectively engage high arial targets, or targets over water, as it lacks the mobility the SAMAS has. And it costs 11 million! Not very cost-effective for what they got.

Really, Triax is manufacturing weapons that cost noticeably more for products that do not work noticeably better. Their quality does not beat he CS's quantity for one, and as I said - weapons such as the Abolisher and the Spider Skull-Walker offer that extra edge with their weapons systems.

That's the statistics of it.

I did say some for the jager - it was hardly the focus of my argument. That cost though, is the black market cost, not the cost for the NGR to make them, so the argument that the CS has 8 Samas to every 1 of the NGR's Jagers doesn't hold water. That cost-effectiveness argument would work for private mercenary groups buying these things at the black market costs, but not for the actual government military. Their quality doesn't have to beat the CS quantity, since the CS isn't going to have advantage in numbers that you're giving them based on those costs.

The abolisher's range is 6000 feet as described in source book 1, and so is the spider-skull walker's. That's the same range as the Ulti-max's rail gun, the jager & super-jager's rail gun, the slammer missiles & lasers on the dynamax, the laser cannons on the dragonwing, & scarcely greater than the range on mini-missiles, which many of the NGR robots/PA also have. And neither the abolisher and the spider-skull walker has any missiles, let alone the short & medium range missiles various NGR robots have, like the Forager, the Dragonwing, & the jagers with some of the weapons packages. So I don't see how the spider-skull walker & the abolisher trump any of those NGR robots - the range & damage output advantages you describe simply don't exist, and the NGR robots are more heavily armoured.

The ultimax isn't going to get kited by any juicer because it can make simo-attacks. I don't see how its inability to jump really comes into it.

[cornholioprime]

So lets say that the CS and the NGR go to war. who would win and more importantly why did it happen. how would this change the face of rifts earth.

Remember the FoM, the Russian Warlords, the gargoyle empire, Lazlo and Free Quebec will be affected by this has well.

Somewhere in the book "Rifts Aftermath" (or one of those books wherein the time has been 'updated' to 109 P.A.), they say that the NGR is going to, confidently, take on the millions-and-millions-and-millions strong Gargoyle Empire on two fronts.

It definitely says within the Rifts: Aftermath book that there are at least 8 million Brodkil, that the Brodkil numbers are far, far fewer than the legions of Gargoyles, and that, furthermore, the combined armies of the Brodkil AND Gargoyles might...might....be enough to topple the NGR.

The Coalition almost got its arse handed to it by the comparatively tiny kingdom of Tolkeen, whose militia was probably a "mere" half-million troops at the very best; even with legions of Skelebots at its beck and call, it suffered serious casualties.

No way in the Nine Hells that the Coalition wins against the NGR -they have far too much of a numbers AND experience advantage, whatever those semi-mysterious NGR troop numbers may be.

[cornholioprime]

ok well then lets take the hostile neighbors out the equastion

That's what should have happened in the first place.

"This Guy vs. That Guy" scenarios should almost always be carried out in a "mental arena" wherein they are the only two entities getting ready to fight.

Otherwise, one might logically say that if we put local conditions into play, that the NGR couldn't defeat anybody in a vs. confrontation with outside actors, as they are currently devoting essentially 100% of their energies to just staying ahead of the Gargoyles and Brodkil.

[cornholioprime]

The fact of the matter thier Ground troops P.A. is a gift the NGR "helped" to create. Thats a fact any way you look at it .

Incorrect. Ground troop EBA uses the alloys developed by NGR, not ground PA. There is a big difference between PA and EBA.

The Dagger is what happens when CS and NGR combine forces to create something.

Yeah, the triax engineers make a war machine and the CS designers at the kids table figure out how to put a skull on it.

Okay, that's pretty funny.

( You think that that is the entirety of what CS "engineers" do their whole lives, dig up things from Golden Age America and put skulls on them, then market them as new?? Even Coalition Bicycles, Toasters, and Baby Strollers?? )

[dark brandon]

What I'd really love, in future reference material, is a cost listing for how much it costs to make certain items, as opposed to their black market cost. An old style SAMAS goes for 1.6 mil on the blackmarket, the Jager for about 12 mil. That doesn't always mean the Jager costs more to make, more that for some reason or the other, the blackmarket is willing to pay that much for it, possibly due to scarcity of product (less Jagers on the open market than rebuilt/knockoff/stolen oldtype-SAMAS). The same goes for any device on the blackmarket really, its hard to judge the cost of an item, by its market value. A blackmarket cost listing of 'priceless' for example doesn't mean its so costly that it can't be created in the first place, etc etc.

The lower cost of a SAMAS may also reflect the narrative they added in New West, with the variant SAMAS. the CS is willing and ready to KILL you and blast your entire mercenary group if they catch you tooling around in 'their' SAMAS, so even bargain basement prices simply reflect that they can barely GIVE the things away on the black market, at least not to devil-may-care types like Adventurers/PCs.

while I understand a want for such things, a need for it is just waisted space, with no real reason behind it other than for us nerds to argue about it on the internets.

I'd just go the TW route, (I think) in that the item is 1/2 the market cost to create.

[Talavar]

What I'd really love, in future reference material, is a cost listing for how much it costs to make certain items, as opposed to their black market cost. An old style SAMAS goes for 1.6 mil on the blackmarket, the Jager for about 12 mil. That doesn't always mean the Jager costs more to make, more that for some reason or the other, the blackmarket is willing to pay that much for it, possibly due to scarcity of product (less Jagers on the open market than rebuilt/knockoff/stolen oldtype-SAMAS). The same goes for any device on the blackmarket really, its hard to judge the cost of an item, by its market value. A blackmarket cost listing of 'priceless' for example doesn't mean its so costly that it can't be created in the first place, etc etc.

The lower cost of a SAMAS may also reflect the narrative they added in New West, with the variant SAMAS. the CS is willing and ready to KILL you and blast your entire mercenary group if they catch you tooling around in 'their' SAMAS, so even bargain basement prices simply reflect that they can barely GIVE the things away on the black market, at least not to devil-may-care types like Adventurers/PCs.

It would be interesting, but of limited utility. The Samas also probably has a much lower Black Market cost because the CS has been manufacturing them for a longish time, giving more opportunity for some to fall off the back of a truck & into the hands of the Black Market, the Black Market actually has the means to produce their own Samas, which isn't true for the Jager, and possibly the Black Market in the NGR is less formidable.

Establishing a unit cost for power armour, robots & vehicles for the various power blocs in Rifts would also require a lot of thought into the economies of the various nation-states that I don't think anyone at Palladium really wants to pin down in such a way.

[Lenwen]

Len the Abolisher was introduced in Source Book 1, original print, so it pre-dates CWC by a while.

Ok givin that , I could not find it listed anywhere in the new Revised and expanded Sourcebook 1. It would seem that I now have to get the original Sourcebook 1 .

But that still does not change the fact that the NGR .. had ..

1) - Glitter Boy tech an manufactering capabilities prior to the FQ alliance ..

2) - That The abolisher still cant train more then 2 barrals of its main guns on any single target ( as per Some ones claim of targeting them all on a single Dragonwing an downing it in a melee round flat out wrong not even close to being canon.)

3) - That the NGR has more Jagers with that missle drum then the CS has total numbers of Samas combined ... The Samas would not even get close enough to launch thier 2 little wrist mounted rockets on the Jager .. due to the Rockets only having a mile at most range while that Missle Drum flat out says its a 5 mile Range ... So yes . The Jager would own up to 8 Samas in a 1 on 8 conbat scenario .. Launching up to 48 missles per melee action .. buh-by Samas ..

4) - The Abolisher AND Spider Skull Walker would match up UNfavorably against every NGR robot exept that Black Knight robots .. Simply due to thier lack of longer then a mile and a half at MOST range .. compared to MOST NGR Robots having weapon systems that FAR exceed that mile and a half range .. Matter of fact the abolisher DOES NOT have a single missle as per some ones ..claim to the contrary ..

[Dog_O_War]

As per my previous post - claiming certain robots had missiles and such;

I was mistaken. I was thinking of the enforcer, and applying it's missile systems to the abolisher.

Also, the Abolisher can be found in Source Book 1 if you want a pre-CWC example of the Abolisher.

Again, I appoligize - was getting two different robot models mixed up.

[Dog_O_War]

I did say some for the jager - it was hardly the focus of my argument. That cost though, is the black market cost, not the cost for the NGR to make them, so the argument that the CS has 8 Samas to every 1 of the NGR's Jagers doesn't hold water.

The price listed for the SAMAS is a BM price as well.
The comparison holds true.

That cost-effectiveness argument would work for private mercenary groups buying these things at the black market costs, but not for the actual government military. Their quality doesn't have to beat the CS quantity, since the CS isn't going to have advantage in numbers that you're giving them based on those costs.

They already do. 1,600,000 are used in active duty. I'm guessing that the Jager does not have numbers equal to this.
And if need be, the other 1,600,000 can be used once there are pilots trained for them.

The abolisher's range is 6000 feet as described in source book 1, and so is the spider-skull walker's.

I messed up on the Spider Skull-Walkers' gun range. The abolisher however has expanded details on its gun in the CWC - extending the cannons out to 10,000 feet (with a penalty).

That's the same range as the Ulti-max's rail gun, the jager & super-jager's rail gun, the slammer missiles & lasers on the dynamax, the laser cannons on the dragonwing, & scarcely greater than the range on mini-missiles, which many of the NGR robots/PA also have. And neither the abolisher and the spider-skull walker has any missiles, let alone the short & medium range missiles various NGR robots have, like the Forager, the Dragonwing, & the jagers with some of the weapons packages.

You're right - these do not have any missiles.
The Enforcer does though.
As do those 1.6 million SAMAS (which atleast one is coupled with every Abolisher).

So I don't see how the spider-skull walker & the abolisher trump any of those NGR robots - the range & damage output advantages you describe simply don't exist, and the NGR robots are more heavily armoured.

They do once you read further. As well, the resource expendature on your part by firing missiles is easily countered by the CS doing the same tactic with its own various missile-platforms. Though this does not include the Abolisher and SSW (my bad). Still, as stated the Abolisher has cannons at a range of 10,000ft, as well as more attacks per round than most of those 'bots. The SSW has cannons that are generally better than a mini-missile, and does not cost nearly as much as any of the bots listed.

The ultimax isn't going to get kited by any juicer because it can make simo-attacks. I don't see how its inability to jump really comes into it.

The Ultimax can not make simul-attacks from directions it's not facing. As I have said previously about the subs; this is not the 1800's where two sides are lining up to recieve an enemy volley - there are tactics involved. And in this case, it's picking on the Ultimaxs' exceptionally poor mobility.

Just a funny side note .. I happened to glance at the "Abolisher Prime" as the FQ calls it , It says it has 120 of them from when FQ was a CS member .. outside of that it flat out says for more information on the Abolisher ... Check out World Book :11 , Coalition War Campaign pages 134-137 .

Just thought that was a little not meshy with what your trying to say ...

Your statement does not make any sense.

I said that the SoT happens after the CS and FQ split up.

The CS gave FQ plans for the Abolisher, and they had these (again) before they split up.

They didn't start gearing for war until (again) they split up.

So clearly the thing pre-dates the CWC, despite having upgraded statistics in the CWC (more MDC).

[Dog_O_War]

Len the Abolisher was introduced in Source Book 1, original print, so it pre-dates CWC by a while.

Ok givin that , I could not find it listed anywhere in the new Revised and expanded Sourcebook 1. It would seem that I now have to get the original Sourcebook 1 .

But that still does not change the fact that the NGR .. had ..

1) - Glitter Boy tech an manufactering capabilities prior to the FQ alliance ..

The ability to manufacture does not equal the plans/manufactured product. You point is invalid.

2) - That The abolisher still cant train more then 2 barrals of its main guns on any single target ( as per Some ones claim of targeting them all on a single Dragonwing an downing it in a melee round flat out wrong not even close to being canon.)

Well, you wanted to have it do a "fly-by", so that more than puts you in-range for 4 incoming shots from a pair of cannons, and 4 parting shots from a pair of cannons. You point is (again) invalid.

3) - That the NGR has more Jagers with that missle drum then the CS has total numbers of Samas combined ... The Samas would not even get close enough to launch thier 2 little wrist mounted rockets on the Jager .. due to the Rockets only having a mile at most range while that Missle Drum flat out says its a 5 mile Range ... So yes . The Jager would own up to 8 Samas in a 1 on 8 conbat scenario .. Launching up to 48 missles per melee action .. buh-by Samas ..

Again; 1 in 4 cannot be used the way you claim. Your point is (again) invalid. Also, you never addressed that these SAMAS can shoot down the missiles.

4) - The Abolisher AND Spider Skull Walker would match up UNfavorably against every NGR robot exept that Black Knight robots .. Simply due to thier lack of longer then a mile and a half at MOST range .. compared to MOST NGR Robots having weapon systems that FAR exceed that mile and a half range .. Matter of fact the abolisher DOES NOT have a single missle as per some ones ..claim to the contrary ..

Please re-read the Abolisher, specifically the number of crew/weapon systems it has, as well as what it uses as a top-gunner (it's a bloody SAMAS).

As well, the SSW costs a comparable amount to the NGR's Jager, and yet it's still an effective weapon. That does not speak well for the NGR, since the SSW does not have to use missiles in order to match the damage out-put of the 'bots in question. The reverse however (NGR 'bots) must typically use missiles to match the damage out-put of a single SSW.

And a point to note; this is all pre-CWC stuff. We haven't even mentioned the Skull-Smasher, the Hell-Raiser, or any of the other robots.
That is, you're comparing ALL of the NGR's robots versus the two oldest models the CS has to offer. That's hardly fair - and as shown, the Abolisher is a match for these robots anyways, if not to mention the cost-effectiveness of a SSW.

[Talavar]

As per my previous post - claiming certain robots had missiles and such;

I was mistaken. I was thinking of the enforcer, and applying it's missile systems to the abolisher.

Also, the Abolisher can be found in Source Book 1 if you want a pre-CWC example of the Abolisher.

Again, I appoligize - was getting two different robot models mixed up.

No problem.

I did say some for the jager - it was hardly the focus of my argument. That cost though, is the black market cost, not the cost for the NGR to make them, so the argument that the CS has 8 Samas to every 1 of the NGR's Jagers doesn't hold water.

The price listed for the SAMAS is a BM price as well.
The comparison holds true.

It's the black market cost for both, but as I said in response to another poster, the black market cost does not necessarily correspond in any way to manufacturing cost. In North America, the original Samas has been in production by the CS for what? 20 years? That's a long time for some to fall off the backs of their respective trucks, plus the Black Market has the plans and resources to make their own, both of which would bring down the black market cost. In Europe, I believe the Jager is newer, so that's less time for non-military to get ahold of it, and the Black Market presumably isn't capable of making their own.

That cost-effectiveness argument would work for private mercenary groups buying these things at the black market costs, but not for the actual government military. Their quality doesn't have to beat the CS quantity, since the CS isn't going to have advantage in numbers that you're giving them based on those costs.

They already do. 1,600,000 are used in active duty. I'm guessing that the Jager does not have numbers equal to this.
And if need be, the other 1,600,000 can be used once there are pilots trained for them.

The CS having 1.6 million Samas isn't a numerical advantage when we don't know how many Jagers the NGR has. 1.6 million isn't necessarily greater than X. The NGR has a higher population and a larger military however, so presumably they've got a lot of something. But the Samas isn't going to be fighting Jagers anyway - it's going to be fighting the NGR flying robots & power armour, the predator & the dragon wing.

The abolisher's range is 6000 feet as described in source book 1, and so is the spider-skull walker's.

I messed up on the Spider Skull-Walkers' gun range. The abolisher however has expanded details on its gun in the CWC - extending the cannons out to 10,000 feet (with a penalty).

The abolisher in CWC is the upgraded version though - it's also got a significantly higher MDC value. Let's say the original could also fire to 10 000 feet - the guns don't otherwise seem to have changed between versions - it's not that big an advantage. There are 2 gunners in the Abolisher, each controlling 3 auto-cannons, so that's probably 10 auto-cannon attacks per round assuming low gunner experience levels. Fine so far, but to fire all the guns at one target though, the whole top of the robot must spin, giving another -3 to hit, making the hatch gunner and torso turret unusable to a round, and only repeatable every other round. That's -7 to hit a target with all the guns at 10 000 feet, which means it could hit the broadside of a barn, but not much else at that range with all its guns. Couple that with the blind-spot at its feet and above its head, and you've got a robot a dragonwing could attack without ever presenting itself to returning fire - flying into it's blindspot out of the abolisher's max range, then hovering above its blindspot and shooting straight down. Yes, the hatch-Samas could still engage the dragonwing, but a Samas is not a match for a dragonwing.

That's the same range as the Ulti-max's rail gun, the jager & super-jager's rail gun, the slammer missiles & lasers on the dynamax, the laser cannons on the dragonwing, & scarcely greater than the range on mini-missiles, which many of the NGR robots/PA also have. And neither the abolisher and the spider-skull walker has any missiles, let alone the short & medium range missiles various NGR robots have, like the Forager, the Dragonwing, & the jagers with some of the weapons packages.

You're right - these do not have any missiles.
The Enforcer does though.
As do those 1.6 million SAMAS (which atleast one is coupled with every Abolisher).

Yes, the enforcer has missiles, but otherwise, it's a liability. The Samas have mini-missiles, but the Samas has little to no advantage over the NGR Predator's, which is what they'd be engaging. Both have mini-missiles (2 each), their main guns both do the same damage (though the predator's is energy, so no ammo to worry about), the Predator has 130 more MDC, and the Samas is 10 mph faster at top speed. And the NGR is going to have a lot of predators too - they're one of the NGR's older suits of power armour, having been in service for 20 years (like the original Samas).

The ultimax isn't going to get kited by any juicer because it can make simo-attacks. I don't see how its inability to jump really comes into it.

The Ultimax can not make simul-attacks from directions it's not facing. As I have said previously about the subs; this is not the 1800's where two sides are lining up to recieve an enemy volley - there are tactics involved. And in this case, it's picking on the Ultimaxs' exceptionally poor mobility.

The Ultimax doesn't have exceptionally poor mobility though. Look at it's combat stats. At level 1, a juicer will have 6 attacks; an ultimax pilot will have robot combat elite: light ground robot, and so have 5, and their bonuses aren't dissimilar. At higher levels, the Ultimax is going to get more attacks, and it doesn't receive any stat penalties, so it's apparently got great mobility - it just can't jump.

As well, the SSW costs a comparable amount to the NGR's Jager, and yet it's still an effective weapon. That does not speak well for the NGR, since the SSW does not have to use missiles in order to match the damage out-put of the 'bots in question. The reverse however (NGR 'bots) must typically use missiles to match the damage out-put of a single SSW.

And a point to note; this is all pre-CWC stuff. We haven't even mentioned the Skull-Smasher, the Hell-Raiser, or any of the other robots.
That is, you're comparing ALL of the NGR's robots versus the two oldest models the CS has to offer. That's hardly fair - and as shown, the Abolisher is a match for these robots anyways, if not to mention the cost-effectiveness of a SSW.

Again, the Black market costs do not equal production costs for the various militaries involved, so the cost-effectiveness argument isn't valid.

The dragonwing, the super-jager, the ordinary jager with some weapons platforms, the glitterboy & the devastator all equal or out-damage the spider-skull walker without using missiles.

We're comparing the the NGR equipment to what the CS had at the same time. We can debate the CWC gear when the Triax gear of the same time frame is published.

[Lenwen]

Len the Abolisher was introduced in Source Book 1, original print, so it pre-dates CWC by a while.

Ok givin that , I could not find it listed anywhere in the new Revised and expanded Sourcebook 1. It would seem that I now have to get the original Sourcebook 1 .

But that still does not change the fact that the NGR .. had ..

1) - Glitter Boy tech an manufactering capabilities prior to the FQ alliance ..

The ability to manufacture does not equal the plans/manufactured product. You point is invalid.

2) - That The abolisher still cant train more then 2 barrals of its main guns on any single target ( as per Some ones claim of targeting them all on a single Dragonwing an downing it in a melee round flat out wrong not even close to being canon.)

Well, you wanted to have it do a "fly-by", so that more than puts you in-range for 4 incoming shots from a pair of cannons, and 4 parting shots from a pair of cannons. You point is (again) invalid.

3) - That the NGR has more Jagers with that missle drum then the CS has total numbers of Samas combined ... The Samas would not even get close enough to launch thier 2 little wrist mounted rockets on the Jager .. due to the Rockets only having a mile at most range while that Missle Drum flat out says its a 5 mile Range ... So yes . The Jager would own up to 8 Samas in a 1 on 8 conbat scenario .. Launching up to 48 missles per melee action .. buh-by Samas ..

Again; 1 in 4 cannot be used the way you claim. Your point is (again) invalid. Also, you never addressed that these SAMAS can shoot down the missiles.

4) - The Abolisher AND Spider Skull Walker would match up UNfavorably against every NGR robot exept that Black Knight robots .. Simply due to thier lack of longer then a mile and a half at MOST range .. compared to MOST NGR Robots having weapon systems that FAR exceed that mile and a half range .. Matter of fact the abolisher DOES NOT have a single missle as per some ones ..claim to the contrary ..

Please re-read the Abolisher, specifically the number of crew/weapon systems it has, as well as what it uses as a top-gunner (it's a bloody SAMAS).

As well, the SSW costs a comparable amount to the NGR's Jager, and yet it's still an effective weapon. That does not speak well for the NGR, since the SSW does not have to use missiles in order to match the damage out-put of the 'bots in question. The reverse however (NGR 'bots) must typically use missiles to match the damage out-put of a single SSW.

And a point to note; this is all pre-CWC stuff. We haven't even mentioned the Skull-Smasher, the Hell-Raiser, or any of the other robots.
That is, you're comparing ALL of the NGR's robots versus the two oldest models the CS has to offer. That's hardly fair - and as shown, the Abolisher is a match for these robots anyways, if not to mention the cost-effectiveness of a SSW.

1) - Triax 550- Glitterboy , NGR/Triax book , pg 45 . F.Q. gave the NGR those plans in a "trade agreement" not yet a full blown Alliance. Thus the NGR had in fact HAD the Glitter Boy PRIOR to the F.Q. Alliance ....

2) - Lets go back and see what you "REALLY" said about the fly bys ... Dog of war ...

[Except with every gun tacked onto the thing. And that it takes only a single round for the Abolisher to completely eliminate the MDC of a Dragonwing, where as the reverse is not true.

To which I've asked you and you have not yet answered my question .. How are you going to train every barrel of the Abolisher on a single target ? as per your own words ... Here I'll help you .. you cant ..

The Dragonwing is capable of mach 2 flight . That is apox .. 1340mph .. RUE clearly says -1 for every 50mph in speed for shooting a moving target ... thats a whooping -26 to strike ... And -1 to hit on top of that IF the dragonwing was taking evasive manuevers to ..

3) - The NGR has a military that is at BERE minimun of 5million strong .. at LEAST ... and probebly many times that factor ...
And the Jager is one of the mainstays of that military might . Having said this (which I got from the NGR book itself) Means to me that the Jager is going to be the equivlent of the Sams to the CS , And if that be the case .. have the same ratio of P.A. to overall military ... Which means to me that there are going to be MORE Jager's with those Missle drums then there are Samas in the Coalition's entire military bank ...

As to shooting down missles ... 1 Jager with 1 Missle drum can launch up to 48 missles at in 1 melee action .
Reading further in Rue , pg 364 . Heading "Shooting Missles"
It flat out stats that two key things are needed ..
A) - The Character NEEDS to have 1 attack available to him in that melee to fire at the missile .

B) - The character can ONLY shoot at ONE missile within a Volley . Mini Missile's ( Armor Piercing ) Travel at 1400mph .. which again we have to configure the exact amount of penalty to even strike the mini missiles .. thats -28 to strike a Armor Piercing mini missile , by your samas . Not even possible by the numbers even if you rolled a natural twenty ...

4) - So you think in a battle that the NGR robots will not be with thier regular units and or its support in a war between these two powerfull nations ?

that makes about as much sence as when you were trying to get everyone to believe the Abolisher had missles ...

I had fun with this scenario . Clearly I've shown the error in your little thought process , Its up to you to be man enough to admit it , And until I see some one in any scenario shoot down a missle with a -28 to strike , I wont believe its possible .. means that missle is going to hit .. hate it for you .

[Lenwen]

And a point to note; this is all pre-CWC stuff. We haven't even mentioned the Skull-Smasher, the Hell-Raiser, or any of the other robots.
That is, you're comparing ALL of the NGR's robots versus the two oldest models the CS has to offer. That's hardly fair - and as shown, the Abolisher is a match for these robots anyways, if not to mention the cost-effectiveness of a SSW.

Really ? Lets see what some one said about the Coalitions Robots vrs the NGR's which brought us on this entire line of reasoning to begin with ..

The Coalition had statistically superior robots before CWC.

Ahh ok there it is , You are the one who flat out stated what you thought at that time , Clearly you have been proven wrong on every front in this matter . The CWC brought UP the overall power of the Coalitions military and brought it close to if not on par with what is in World Book 5 for the NGR , but the fact of the matter is that Every book since CWC STILL flat out states that the NGR is STILL ahead of the CS in terms of Robots and various other tech . Which means for right now the NGR book 2 in question will show us all new stuff that will prolly make us go WOW thats BAMF !!!

just my 2 coper pieces ..

I now pose a question for YOU ...

What makes you think that the Cost is not , the cost of the black market to sell for those units as opposed to the cost for each respective nation to produce ?

That is what I really would like to know .

[Dog_O_War]

And a point to note; this is all pre-CWC stuff. We haven't even mentioned the Skull-Smasher, the Hell-Raiser, or any of the other robots.
That is, you're comparing ALL of the NGR's robots versus the two oldest models the CS has to offer. That's hardly fair - and as shown, the Abolisher is a match for these robots anyways, if not to mention the cost-effectiveness of a SSW.

Really ? Lets see what some one said about the Coalitions Robots vrs the NGR's which brought us on this entire line of reasoning to begin with ..

The Coalition had statistically superior robots before CWC.

Ahh ok there it is , You are the one who flat out stated what you thought at that time , Clearly you have been proven wrong on every front in this matter .

Um, hello? I never stopped claiming this, and the "proven wrong" has been, "well this bot has missiles - therefore it will out-gun this bot".
The Enforcer has medium-range missiles, short-range missiles, and mini-missiles. It never has to frontally engage a target because of this.
The Abolisher has guns with a range of 10,000 feet - out-ranging any and all enemy guns and mini-missiles.
The SSW has both mobility and excellent firepower to out-gun many opponents, and has more attacks per melee than any PA. It has no equivalent on the NGR side, but it can be put to a cost per unit/manpower comparison with their bots. It evens up pretty good.

The CWC brought UP the overall power of the Coalitions military and brought it close to if not on par with what is in World Book 5 for the NGR , but the fact of the matter is that Every book since CWC STILL flat out states that the NGR is STILL ahead of the CS in terms of Robots and various other tech.

And the Glitterboy Killer fluff states that it uses targetted mini-missiles against the GB boomgun - another mistake made in the fluff. You point is invalid.

Even then, the NGR does not have vehicles that have a prowl statistic, nor do they have PA in the numbers, cost-range, and effectiveness of the CS. Beyond this, they also lack effective means of transporting these robots, which the CS does not.

As stated, the CWC robots trump Triax & NGR 'bots.

Which means for right now the NGR book 2 in question will show us all new stuff that will prolly make us go WOW thats BAMF !!!

Probably does not equal will. As well, you are (again) arguing what might be with what is. Your point is (again) invalid.

I now pose a question for YOU ...

What makes you think that the Cost is not , the cost of the black market to sell for those units as opposed to the cost for each respective nation to produce ?

That is what I really would like to know .

You wanna clarify that into English?

[Dog_O_War]

1) - Triax 550- Glitterboy , NGR/Triax book , pg 45 . F.Q. gave the NGR those plans in a "trade agreement" not yet a full blown Alliance. Thus the NGR had in fact HAD the Glitter Boy PRIOR to the F.Q. Alliance ....

Are you reading what you're typing?
The "alliance" is the trade agreement. Your point is invalid.

2) - Lets go back and see what you "REALLY" said about the fly bys ... Dog of war ...

[Except with every gun tacked onto the thing. And that it takes only a single round for the Abolisher to completely eliminate the MDC of a Dragonwing, where as the reverse is not true.

To which I've asked you and you have not yet answered my question .. How are you going to train every barrel of the Abolisher on a single target ?

I'm not; I'm going to do exactly what I stated.
4 dual shots; that is two cannons firing 4 shots each (their maximum RoF) at the incoming target.
4 dual shots as the target leaves the firing arc of the first pair of cannons and enters the firing arc of the second pair of cannons.

as per your own words ... Here I'll help you .. you cant ..

I don't think you even knew what I said.

The Dragonwing is capable of mach 2 flight . That is apox .. 1340mph .. RUE clearly says -1 for every 50mph in speed for shooting a moving target ... thats a whooping -26 to strike ...

Wow, amazing. Does it say that the penalty does not apply to the shooter that is moving as well?

And -1 to hit on top of that IF the dragonwing was taking evasive manuevers to ..

Or is caught standing still thanks to this long-range attack.

3) - The NGR has a military that is at BERE minimun of 5million strong .. at LEAST ... and probebly many times that factor ...

Proof? Or is this another one of your proofless statements?

And the Jager is one of the mainstays of that military might . Having said this (which I got from the NGR book itself)

Book and pg# please.

As to shooting down missles ... 1 Jager with 1 Missle drum can launch up to 48 missles at in 1 melee action .

In how many volleys? And besides that, you're wasting 48 missiles on a single SAMAS? I don't believe you'll be commanding troops or giving strategies any time soon.

Reading further in Rue , pg 364 . Heading "Shooting Missles"
It flat out stats that two key things are needed ..
A) - The Character NEEDS to have 1 attack available to him in that melee to fire at the missile .

A character always has 1 attack available since they can borrow from the next round. And if the SAMAS didn't have 1 attack available, it's because they were spent killing a Jager.

B) - The character can ONLY shoot at ONE missile within a Volley . Mini Missile's ( Armor Piercing ) Travel at 1400mph .. which again we have to configure the exact amount of penalty to even strike the mini missiles .. thats -28 to strike a Armor Piercing mini missile , by your samas . Not even possible by the numbers even if you rolled a natural twenty ...

A missile is not a vehicle and is not subject to those rules.

4) - So you think in a battle that the NGR robots will not be with thier regular units and or its support in a war between these two powerfull nations ?

that makes about as much sence as when you were trying to get everyone to believe the Abolisher had missles ...

I appologized for that mistake. Seems you are incapable of accepting it and moving on, or even stating that you, yourself have made errors (many, many errors).

Besides that - do you think that the CS is going to war without their regular units to back up their own bots? keep in mind that this includes a FS.M.F.

I had fun with this scenario . Clearly I've shown the error in your little thought process

You've shown nothing but bias and your own errors.

Its up to you to be man enough to admit it , And until I see some one in any scenario shoot down a missle with a -28 to strike , I wont believe its possible .. means that missle is going to hit .. hate it for you .

The only thing you need to do is re-read the rules.

[glitterboy2098]

A missile is not a vehicle and is not subject to those rules.

actually, the rule is about moving targets, not vehicles. it doesn't matter if it's a vehicle, character, or missile. the rule applies.

and because of the way it is written, it is the targets speed that gives the penalties, not your own. so a fast moving shooter firing at a stationary target doesn't suffer penalties to strike. though if the shooter is using a hand weapon and firing from a moving vehicle it would still be a wild shot. (firing the vehicle's weapons though usually isn't, and those can be aimed or called as appropriate as well as benefitting from any vehicular targeting bonuses and weapon system skill bonuses.).)

[Lenwen]

1) - Triax 550- Glitterboy , NGR/Triax book , pg 45 . F.Q. gave the NGR those plans in a "trade agreement" not yet a full blown Alliance. Thus the NGR had in fact HAD the Glitter Boy PRIOR to the F.Q. Alliance ....

Are you reading what you're typing?
The "alliance" is the trade agreement. Your point is invalid.

Well said . The G.B. trade was only the tip of the iceburg . F.Q. has been and is continueing to send massive amounts of raw material and foodsources , W.B.-22 pg# 19.

I'm not; I'm going to do exactly what I stated.
4 dual shots; that is two cannons firing 4 shots each (their maximum RoF) at the incoming target.
4 dual shots as the target leaves the firing arc of the first pair of cannons and enters the firing arc of the second pair of cannons.

At most , the IAR-2 can only train 2 barrals at any single givin target . There is no exeption to this rule .. So as I proven you wrong when you said target all barrals on the single target earlier ...

The Dragonwing is capable of mach 2 flight . That is apox .. 1340mph .. RUE clearly says -1 for every 50mph in speed for shooting a moving target ... thats a whooping -26 to strike ...

Wow, amazing. Does it say that the penalty does not apply to the shooter that is moving as well?

really this is your comeback to my logically showing you how hard it would be to hit something moving that fast ? . . . . Can we say reaching ? ah , yes we can ...

And -1 to hit on top of that IF the dragonwing was taking evasive manuevers to ..

Or is caught standing still thanks to this long-range attack

hahahaha -28 to strike that dragonwing .. anyway you look at it due to purely the speed of the dragonwing ... hahahaha
obviously that dragonwing is going to land an fight like that aint it ... yeah only in your setting ...

3) - The NGR has a military that is at BERE minimun of 5million strong .. at LEAST ... and probebly many times that factor ...

Proof? Or is this another one of your proofless statements?

Yep. And here for your viewing pleasure ...
World Book 5 , pg#16
"nearly 5 million human refugee's from the neighboring territories fled to them in droves ...."
World Book 5 pg# 17 .
"The NGR's human troops have been increased 10 fold and any new refugee who is a healthy male or female of resonable age must pledge 8 years to military duty ."
World Book 5 pg# 17 .
" At the age of 17 , all male citizens born in the NGR must serve 5 years in the military or 6 years as a laborer/technician at a triax manufacturing facility"

Each of those spells out to me that the NGR military numbers into the tens of millions ... not simply 1.5million the Cs was hardpressed to put on ground against a little city ...

And the Jager is one of the mainstays of that military might . Having said this (which I got from the NGR book itself)

Book and pg# please.

No problem..
World book 5 pg# 55
" Approximatly 25% of the army's combat robots are the X-535 Jager/Hunter ."

As to shooting down missles ... 1 Jager with 1 Missle drum can launch up to 48 missles at in 1 melee action .

In how many volleys? And besides that, you're wasting 48 missiles on a single SAMAS? I don't believe you'll be commanding troops or giving strategies any time soon.

Correction 1 Jager with that drum would take out 8 samas per 48 missles ... and it has 96 of those .. so 1 Jager could conviecably take out at most 14 Samas .. or at LEAST up to 8 samas .

14 Samas destroyed per single 1 Jageror 8 samas destroyed per 1 Jager ... Those are odds I'd take any day of the week haha .

Reading further in Rue , pg 364 . Heading "Shooting Missles"
It flat out stats that two key things are needed ..
A) - The Character NEEDS to have 1 attack available to him in that melee to fire at the missile .

A character always has 1 attack available since they can borrow from the next round. And if the SAMAS didn't have 1 attack available, it's because they were spent killing a Jager.

Borrow an attack from the next round . I guess when you GIVE that samas basically an unlimmited amount of attacks per melee .. then that very well could tip the scale in favor of the Sam .. but then again your "adjustment" of the scenario is halarious if you ask me ... good try tho ..

Book and pg number that lists as you claim .. "borrowed" melee attack please ?

B) - The character can ONLY shoot at ONE missile within a Volley . Mini Missile's ( Armor Piercing ) Travel at 1400mph .. which again we have to configure the exact amount of penalty to even strike the mini missiles .. thats -28 to strike a Armor Piercing mini missile , by your samas . Not even possible by the numbers even if you rolled a natural twenty ...

A missile is not a vehicle and is not subject to those rules.

Honestly .. this is reaching in the extream. Youve been proven wrong no matter how you look at it . Just because you refuse to admit it does not make you any less wrong .. hehe .

You've shown nothing but bias and your own errors.

And yet other people have tried to show you , where your flaw was in many many debats just on this thread .. yet you refuse to believe it ..
And who was showing thier bias ?

Its up to you to be man enough to admit it , And until I see some one in any scenario shoot down a missle with a -28 to strike , I wont believe its possible .. means that missle is going to hit .. hate it for you .

The only thing you need to do is re-read the rules.

Sure bud , Sure ...

Unless you can post a Logical, UNBIASED, systematic side of a debat this is the last post that I will take you serious in .

[Dog_O_War]

A missile is not a vehicle and is not subject to those rules.

actually, the rule is about moving targets, not vehicles. it doesn't matter if it's a vehicle, character, or missile. the rule applies.

and because of the way it is written, it is the targets speed that gives the penalties, not your own. so a fast moving shooter firing at a stationary target doesn't suffer penalties to strike. though if the shooter is using a hand weapon and firing from a moving vehicle it would still be a wild shot. (firing the vehicle's weapons though usually isn't, and those can be aimed or called as appropriate as well as benefitting from any vehicular targeting bonuses and weapon system skill bonuses.).)

You are correct. It does say targets and not vehicles/persons.

1) - Triax 550- Glitterboy , NGR/Triax book , pg 45 . F.Q. gave the NGR those plans in a "trade agreement" not yet a full blown Alliance. Thus the NGR had in fact HAD the Glitter Boy PRIOR to the F.Q. Alliance ....

Are you reading what you're typing?
The "alliance" is the trade agreement. Your point is invalid.

Well said . The G.B. trade was only the tip of the iceburg . F.Q. has been and is continueing to send massive amounts of raw material and foodsources , W.B.-22 pg# 19.

This does not validate your point, it only shows that Germany was getting materials from FQ.

I'm not; I'm going to do exactly what I stated.
4 dual shots; that is two cannons firing 4 shots each (their maximum RoF) at the incoming target.
4 dual shots as the target leaves the firing arc of the first pair of cannons and enters the firing arc of the second pair of cannons.

At most , the IAR-2 can only train 2 barrals at any single givin target . There is no exeption to this rule .. So as I proven you wrong when you said target all barrals on the single target earlier ...

You're still not reading what I posted. Re-read it; have someone else read it to you. Do this until you understand what I posted.

The Dragonwing is capable of mach 2 flight . That is apox .. 1340mph .. RUE clearly says -1 for every 50mph in speed for shooting a moving target ... thats a whooping -26 to strike ...

Wow, amazing. Does it say that the penalty does not apply to the shooter that is moving as well?

really this is your comeback to my logically showing you how hard it would be to hit something moving that fast ? . . . . Can we say reaching ? ah , yes we can ...

The logic is that you're unlikely to hit as well, what with a -6 to strike on that wild shot. So you're either slowing down to hit, and thus be hit, or you're missing. I was reaching with my comment, but now that I've re-read the section, it appears you were doing the same.

I think that invalidates both points.

3) - The NGR has a military that is at BERE minimun of 5million strong .. at LEAST ... and probebly many times that factor ...

Proof? Or is this another one of your proofless statements?

Yep. And here for your viewing pleasure ...
World Book 5 , pg#16
"nearly 5 million human refugee's from the neighboring territories fled to them in droves ...."
World Book 5 pg# 17 .
"The NGR's human troops have been increased 10 fold and any new refugee who is a healthy male or female of resonable age must pledge 8 years to military duty ."
World Book 5 pg# 17 .
" At the age of 17 , all male citizens born in the NGR must serve 5 years in the military or 6 years as a laborer/technician at a triax manufacturing facility"

So, you've posted that there are 5 million refugees. And no other numbers.
And then you've gone on to state that not everyone must join the military - they may instead become technicians.
You need more proof.

And the Jager is one of the mainstays of that military might . Having said this (which I got from the NGR book itself)

Book and pg# please.

No problem..
World book 5 pg# 55
" Approximatly 25% of the army's combat robots are the X-535 Jager/Hunter ."

With no other numbers to support this statement, it might as well be "4", making it 1 Jager.

As to shooting down missles ... 1 Jager with 1 Missle drum can launch up to 48 missles at in 1 melee action .

In how many volleys? And besides that, you're wasting 48 missiles on a single SAMAS? I don't believe you'll be commanding troops or giving strategies any time soon.

Correction 1 Jager with that drum would take out 8 samas per 48 missles ... and it has 96 of those .. so 1 Jager could conviecably take out at most 14 Samas .. or at LEAST up to 8 samas .

Here's the missile-table for you.
roll to strike against the volley; there is a 70% chance on a hit that atleast half the missiles will be destroyed. Of that, 68% of the time all the missiles are destroyed.

That's if they hit. You mentioned that a target moving at speed is hard to hit; well at 300 mph, you're looking at a -6 to strike, with an additional -1 for evasive manuevers. That means you're hitting less than 40% of the time, and even then the target can block/sacrifice and simply not be destroyed. Meanwhile, since you've killed zero SAMAS, and the SAMAS have engaged within their range of the weapons, you're likely dead because you were a still target. Crazy how that worked out, eh?

Reading further in Rue , pg 364 . Heading "Shooting Missles"
It flat out stats that two key things are needed ..
A) - The Character NEEDS to have 1 attack available to him in that melee to fire at the missile .

A character always has 1 attack available since they can borrow from the next round. And if the SAMAS didn't have 1 attack available, it's because they were spent killing a Jager.

Borrow an attack from the next round . I guess when you GIVE that samas basically an unlimmited amount of attacks per melee .. then that very well could tip the scale in favor of the Sam .. but then again your "adjustment" of the scenario is halarious if you ask me ... good try tho ..

You never addressed that they would have attacks available anyways.

Book and pg number that lists as you claim .. "borrowed" melee attack please ?

It's under simultaineous attack in R:UE, pg 347. Crazy how that works, eh?

You've shown nothing but bias and your own errors.

And yet other people have tried to show you , where your flaw was in many many debats just on this thread .. yet you refuse to believe it ..
And who was showing thier bias ?

You still. You only ever post half the explanation, and never show how things play out.
To you, it's "Jager shoots, everyone dies!" without taking into account misses, attacks per melee, and the actual rules.

Unless you can post a Logical, UNBIASED, systematic side of a debat this is the last post that I will take you serious in .

Presented.

[Talavar]

Um, hello? I never stopped claiming this, and the "proven wrong" has been, "well this bot has missiles - therefore it will out-gun this bot".
The Enforcer has medium-range missiles, short-range missiles, and mini-missiles. It never has to frontally engage a target because of this.
The Abolisher has guns with a range of 10,000 feet - out-ranging any and all enemy guns and mini-missiles.
The SSW has both mobility and excellent firepower to out-gun many opponents, and has more attacks per melee than any PA. It has no equivalent on the NGR side, but it can be put to a cost per unit/manpower comparison with their bots. It evens up pretty good.

Except in my post above Lenwen's that was apparently disregarded. The abolisher has a massive blindspot on the top of it's head, and can't hit anything capable of a dodge at 10 000 feet using all of its guns. Seriously, everything you say here has a counter-argument that I already made. But since you keep bringing it up, I'll say it again - your cost per unit argument doesn't work. We don't know the production costs of almost any CS or NGR equipment. Unless you believe either side is actually buying their equipment from the Black Market, who is the real manufacturing super-power of Rifts, it doesn't work.

[Lenwen]

A missile is not a vehicle and is not subject to those rules.

actually, the rule is about moving targets, not vehicles. it doesn't matter if it's a vehicle, character, or missile. the rule applies.

and because of the way it is written, it is the targets speed that gives the penalties, not your own. so a fast
moving shooter firing at a stationary target doesn't suffer penalties to strike. though if the shooter is
using a hand weapon and firing from a moving vehicle it would still be a wild shot.
(firing the vehicle's weapons though usually isn't, and those can be aimed or called as appropriate as well as benefitting
from any vehicular targeting bonuses and weapon system skill bonuses.).)

You are correct. It does say targets and not vehicles/persons.

I guess only targets are targets .. and Vehicles and missles can not be targets in your world ..

Your logic is flawed and your opinions biased ..

I'm not; I'm going to do exactly what I stated.
4 dual shots; that is two cannons firing 4 shots each (their maximum RoF) at the incoming target.
4 dual shots as the target leaves the firing arc of the first pair of cannons and enters the firing arc of the second pair of cannons.

At most , the IAR-2 can only train 2 barrals at any single givin target . There is no exeption to this rule ..
So as I proven you wrong when you said target all barrals on the single target earlier ...

You're still not reading what I posted. Re-read it; have someone else read it to you. Do this until you understand what I posted.

Yeah now your telling me my reading comprehension is not what it is ? Your the one who errently said the Abolisher could train all its guns on a
single target .. ( FALSE ) Not to mention it DOES have a Blind spot at the bottom of its feet of 20ft as well as that same blind spot at the top of
the abolishers head ..

The Dragonwing is capable of mach 2 flight . That is apox .. 1340mph ..
RUE clearly says -1 for every 50mph in speed for shooting a moving target ... thats a whooping -26 to strike ...

Wow, amazing. Does it say that the penalty does not apply to the shooter that is moving as well?

really this is your comeback to my logically showing you how hard it would be to hit something moving that fast ? . . . .
Can we say reaching ? ah , yes we can ...

The logic is that you're unlikely to hit as well, what with a -6 to strike on that wild shot.
So you're either slowing down to hit, and thus be hit, or you're missing. I was reaching with my comment, but now that I've re-read the section,
it appears you were doing the same.

I think that invalidates both points.

Wrong , The negative to strike only effects the stationary Weapons platform , does not effect the Dragonwing at all .
Hate it for you if thats what you think ... that would be a personal opinion , not a fact in which case my point would be a fact.
The thing bout this is that -6 is now +2 to strike due under the description of the Missle Drum . Then add in the +1 to strike ( R.C. Elite)
+2 strike also from the Pilots own H2H; Expert thats only lvl 2 btw ... Which brings that -6 to a grand total of -1 to strike for that lvl 3 Jager Pilot
Who is evil (h2h-expert) which means anything over a 5 is a hit.
Jager (with lvl 2 expert hand 2 hand Robot combat :Elite) has a total of +5 to strike

3) - The NGR has a military that is at BERE minimun of
5 million strong .. at LEAST ... and probebly many times that factor ...

Proof? Or is this another one of your proofless statements?

Yep. And here for your viewing pleasure ...
World Book 5 , pg#16
"nearly 5 million human refugee's from the neighboring territories fled to them in droves ...."
World Book 5 pg# 17 .
"The NGR's human troops have been increased 10 fold and any new refugee who is a healthy male or female of
resonable age must pledge 8 years to military duty ."
World Book 5 pg# 17 .
" At the age of 17 , all male citizens born in the NGR must serve 5 years in the military or 6 years as a
laborer/technician at a triax manufacturing facility"

So, you've posted that there are 5 million refugees. And no other numbers.
And then you've gone on to state that not everyone must join the military - they may instead become technicians.
You need more proof.

I quoted the book , EVERY refugee female or male HAS to give 8 years to the military .. not technicians .. that is only reseved for
the NGR BORN citizens ..

If you refuse to believe that even to reword it to fit what ever you want it to tho its canon .. thats your call ..

And the Jager is one of the mainstays of that military might .
Having said this (which I got from the NGR book itself)

Book and pg# please.

No problem..
World book 5 pg# 55
" Approximatly 25% of the army's combat robots are the X-535 Jager/Hunter ."

With no other numbers to support this statement, it might as well be "4", making it 1 Jager.

Yeah , The NGR military held off the tens of millions of Garg's and the 8 million Brodkil empires ...
with 4 total units of robots ... only 1 of which like you just said was in fact a jager ..

I'm ashamed I even responded to this ... really...

As to shooting down missles ... 1 Jager with 1 Missle drum can launch up to 48 missles
at in 1 melee action .

In how many volleys? And besides that, you're wasting 48 missiles on a single SAMAS? I don't believe you'll be commanding troops or giving
strategies any time soon.

Correction 1 Jager with that drum would take out 8 samas per 48 missles ... and it has 96 of those .. so 1 Jager could conviecably
take out at most 14 Samas .. or at LEAST up to 8 samas .

Here's the missile-table for you.
roll to strike against the volley; there is a 70% chance on a hit that atleast half the missiles will be destroyed. Of that,
68% of the time all the missiles are destroyed.

The fact of the matter is your -28 to strike armor piercing missles as due to them travelling at 1400mph ..
Add in all the bonas's to the pilots overall abilities for H2H/ Robot combat elite .. and your lookin at a -18 to
-22 to strike those same missles .. again .. impossible ..

Logic dear watson , Logic .../sigh.

That's if they hit. You mentioned that a target moving at speed is hard to hit; well at 300 mph, you're looking at a -6 to strike,
with an additional -1 for evasive manuevers. That means you're hitting less than 40% of the time,
and even then the target can block/sacrifice and simply not be destroyed. Meanwhile, since you've killed zero SAMAS, and the SAMAS
have engaged within their range of the weapons, you're likely dead because you were a still target.
Crazy how that worked out, eh?

The thing bout this is that -6 is now +2 to strike due under the description of the Missle Drum . Then add in the +1 to strike ( R.C. Elite)
+2 strike also from the Pilots own H2H; Expert thats only lvl 2 btw ... Which brings that -6 to a grand total of -1 to strike for that lvl 3 Jager Pilot
Who is evil (h2h-expert) which means anything over a 5 is a hit.
Jager (with lvl 2 expert hand 2 hand Robot combat :Elite) has a total of +5 to strike .

That Samas meanwhile still cant fire till its within range of that Jager .. which is a mile and a half at best .
While that jager can attack those samas at range of 5 miles ...

Again lets use logic here . Jager / missle drum Range = 5 miles , Can shoot 48 missles/melee with -1 to strike means that jager pilot has to hit a 6
or better to hit that samas ..

that Samas can NOT use a simo attack as its not in range of ANY weapon the Samas has to DO a simo attack ... (logical aint it ?)

Logically looking at the Sams its stats are 3.5ft shoulder to shoulder . Blast radius of the Armor piercing mini missle as per CWC,pg97 ..
Stats the Blast Radious of the missle is 3 ft . Means IF that Sam tries to "parry" the blast its going to hit him (as will the others automatically)
and then the Sam is pelted with how ever many missles hit him . The Damage of the Armor Piercing Round would be enough to blow off that arm and
the wing immediatly to which ever side that Sam attempted to parry that missle with . Downing that Sam ..

Means thats 1 dead samas .. or however many Samas there are up to 8 at a time ..

Reading further in Rue , pg 364 . Heading "Shooting Missles"
It flat out stats that two key things are needed ..
A) - The Character NEEDS to have 1 attack available to him in that melee to fire at the missile .

A character always has 1 attack available since they can borrow from the next round.
And if the SAMAS didn't have 1 attack available, it's because they were spent killing a Jager.

Borrow an attack from the next round . I guess when you GIVE that samas basically an unlimmited amount of attacks per melee ..
then that very well could tip the scale in favor of the Sam ..
but then again your "adjustment" of the scenario is halarious if you ask me ... good try tho ..

You never addressed that they would have attacks available anyways.

give me a break , now your saying that neither pilot would have attacks or the lack of me saying how many each pilot had ? Seriously ?

hahahaha

Book and pg number that lists as you claim .. "borrowed" melee attack please ?

It's under simultaineous attack in R:UE, pg 347. Crazy how that works, eh?

Exept how is that Samas going to do a simo attack when the Jager launched its missles while that Samas is 5 miles out ...
Outta range of every weapon the Samas has ..

Again , Your use of logic .. really .. come now ..

You've shown nothing but bias and your own errors.

And yet other people have tried to show you , where your flaw was in many many debats just on this thread .. yet you refuse to believe it ..
And who was showing thier bias ?

You still. You only ever post half the explanation, and never show how things play out.
To you, it's "Jager shoots, everyone dies!" without taking into account misses, attacks per melee, and the actual rules.

Yeah cause a Simo attacking Samas that is 3 and a half miles BEYOND its weapon systems is a REAL threat to a Jager ... with a range of 5 miles on its mini missles ... aint it ..

HAHAHAHAHA

Unless you can post a Logical, UNBIASED, systematic side of a debat this is the last post that I will take you serious in .

Presented.

Hardly ..

[Dog_O_War]

Um, hello? I never stopped claiming this, and the "proven wrong" has been, "well this bot has missiles - therefore it will out-gun this bot".
The Enforcer has medium-range missiles, short-range missiles, and mini-missiles. It never has to frontally engage a target because of this.
The Abolisher has guns with a range of 10,000 feet - out-ranging any and all enemy guns and mini-missiles.
The SSW has both mobility and excellent firepower to out-gun many opponents, and has more attacks per melee than any PA. It has no equivalent on the NGR side, but it can be put to a cost per unit/manpower comparison with their bots. It evens up pretty good.

Except in my post above Lenwen's that was apparently disregarded.

Yes, about that. You wrote stuff that the Abolisher doesn't need to worry about because it can't happen, so I disregarded it. I don't mean to be rude or anything (as I'd much rather debate this with you than have to pull out the ol' cryptogram for Lenwen's posts), but you just need to re-read the Abolisher.
The cannons (for instance), can only fire a maximum of 4 times per round, regardless of HtH attacks available. The "spin" manuever is pretty useless, and the blind-spot only applies to the cannons, not to the top-gunner or some of its other weapon-systems. Not to mention all the other men and PA's/other robots that are in a typical battlegroup. To assume the Dragonwing had that much time is foolish.

When you offered that 1.6 mil. was not necessarily higher than X, all you were doing was clouding the information that was available. What is unreasonable to assume is that if there were 1 million Jagers (or 25% of their robot army), then that would put all their other robot models at a number of 3 million. That's hundreds of thousands of Dynamax models, Ultimax models, etc... WAAAY unreasonable given the reasource crunch they're under. And with those numbers, they could've easily crushed the Gargoyle and Brodkil empires, as well as taken over all of Europe.
But that hasn't happened because it's unreasonable to assume that there are that there are even a million Jagers. Maybe 200-250,000.

As to the cost of the various models; we literally have no other comparison other than a BM cost. Even getting ahold of a Smiling Jack - which is definitely newer than the Jager - only costs a bit more than the older SAMAS. I think that the price comparison is fairly accurate, and at any rate is still the only thing we have to go off of.

As to the Ultimax's mobility, that's a cause of the skill, not the bot. And you'll note that all other bots with an elite pilot in them have far, far, greater mobility.

Finally, You're wanting to pit the oldest CS gear compared to the Triax gear. If I recall correctly, there was a few years of book-writing in between when the original CS stuff had come out, and when the NGR stuff had come out.

As the comparison has gone, we'll stick with all the current robots and PA both sides have listed. Why? Because that is what was originally questioned, critiqued, and compared. You can't just change the topic at-hand to suit your comparison; it's biased and shows that the original comparison did not favor you.

That's why I didn't respond.

[Lenwen]

So lets say that the CS and the NGR go to war. who would win and more importantly why did it happen. how would this change the face of rifts earth.

Remember the FoM, the Russian Warlords, the gargoyle empire, Lazlo and Free Quebec will be affected by this has well.

After much debat and further conversation amongst my players ..

I believe with out a doubt nuthing would make the NGR want a war with the Coalition due directly to the upcomming resources issue they will have AFTER they start thier double pronged offensive against the Garg empire .

Even tho as it stands right now the F.Q. nation has been sending resouces in Bulk prior to the CS doing the same thing .

If , however you pitted the NGR against the CS in a 1 on 1 fight .... with out thier current situations effecting the outcome of the war on either side ..

The Coalition would get owned . It would not even be a question . It would only be a question of how long it would take the NGR ..

[Talavar]

Yes, about that. You wrote stuff that the Abolisher doesn't need to worry about because it can't happen, so I disregarded it. I don't mean to be rude or anything (as I'd much rather debate this with you than have to pull out the ol' cryptogram for Lenwen's posts), but you just need to re-read the Abolisher.
The cannons (for instance), can only fire a maximum of 4 times per round, regardless of HtH attacks available. The "spin" manuever is pretty useless, and the blind-spot only applies to the cannons, not to the top-gunner or some of its other weapon-systems. Not to mention all the other men and PA's/other robots that are in a typical battlegroup. To assume the Dragonwing had that much time is foolish.

I've read the Abolisher pretty closely. According to Sourcebook 1, each auto-cannon can only fire twice per round, so without doing the spin manuever, it's got a pretty low damage output to that 10 000 foot range over a whole melee round: 160 MD average. With the spin it's potential damage increases dramatically, but it's ability to hit anything mobile goes way down.

As to the blind spot it's 20' at the Abolisher's head - it's size would increase conically the higher you go. The Abolisher's other weapon - the belly turret - can't fire straight up either, not through the bulk of the Abolisher's "head." That leaves only the hatch gunner who can fire upwards - usually a Samas pilot.

I don't see what large amount of time the dragonwing is going to need - the thing travels at 1340 mph, and can hover at any altitude up to 45 000 feet, an altitude it can reach in 22 seconds. It can get in that blind spot without presenting itself to any fire but the Samas's, and then destroy the Samas in 7 attacks - 1 round - doing average damage with its energy weapons. If the Samas remains at its head-gunner post, it can't dodge; if it abandons the Abolisher for mobility, the Abolisher is even more vulnerable from the air. If it's not a Samas at the position, but just an average soldier, then that soldier goes down even faster. The dragonwing is fast enough that it can get in and out of some units' weapon ranges in the same attack.

I realize the Abolisher won't be fighting a dragonwing in a vacuum, but in any battlegroup or mechanized army of NGR vs. CS, ground-based forces are going to be a major target of the dragonwing flights. The Samas-es will be dueling the largely-equal Predators - at least until they run out of ammo & get overrun (they only carry enough ammo for 50 bursts & 2 mini-missiles after all; the predator uses an energy weapon & is more heavily armoured). Dragonwings' speed means they're going to be hitting the CS forces first (if they want to) and softening up the one enemy opponent with a range advantage over many of the NGR units makes sense. The major targets of the Abolishers would likely be the giant Devastators, the weak-at-range Black Knights, Dyna-maxes, Ulti-maxes, Jagers, & Super-jagers.

When you offered that 1.6 mil. was not necessarily higher than X, all you were doing was clouding the information that was available. What is unreasonable to assume is that if there were 1 million Jagers (or 25% of their robot army), then that would put all their other robot models at a number of 3 million. That's hundreds of thousands of Dynamax models, Ultimax models, etc... WAAAY unreasonable given the reasource crunch they're under. And with those numbers, they could've easily crushed the Gargoyle and Brodkil empires, as well as taken over all of Europe.
But that hasn't happened because it's unreasonable to assume that there are that there are even a million Jagers. Maybe 200-250,000.

According to Aftermath, there are approximately 8 million Brodkil, and though I can't find an estimage for the gargoyles, they're expected to defeat the Brodkil in any civil war between the two - so it's got to be a lot. I think you underestimate the strength of those numbers, and the proportion of the NGR army that's mechanized.

Regardless, the CS is likely to have more Samas than any one model of NGR Power armour. So? The Samas isn't some super-suit: it's subsonic, has a low flight ceiling that's easily hit from the ground, and low amounts of ammunition for any kind of sustained fighting. Above, you cautioned me that a dragonwing isn't going to be fighting an Abolisher alone; the reverse is also true - the NGR & CS aren't going to be fighting in one battle where 1.6 million Samas can dogpile whoever they're up against. 50 rail gun bursts and 2 mini-missiles isn't going to last long against any other mechanized opponent, at which point the Samas is down to landing and punching people.

As to the cost of the various models; we literally have no other comparison other than a BM cost. Even getting ahold of a Smiling Jack - which is definitely newer than the Jager - only costs a bit more than the older SAMAS. I think that the price comparison is fairly accurate, and at any rate is still the only thing we have to go off of.

Black market costs being the only thing we've got are the reason the cost-effectiveness argument doesn't work. The lack of published production costs doesn't make basing an argument off the black market costs correct, it's just an area of pure speculation.

As to the Ultimax's mobility, that's a cause of the skill, not the bot. And you'll note that all other bots with an elite pilot in them have far, far, greater mobility.

But there are no bot penalties to the skill. The Ulti-max doesn't have a mobility problem. It's not particularly fast, and it can't jump, but it has no other penalties to its manueverability or physical reactions. Other bots may run faster; some may be able to jet-jump very far - but most aren't any more manuerverable.

Finally, You're wanting to pit the oldest CS gear compared to the Triax gear. If I recall correctly, there was a few years of book-writing in between when the original CS stuff had come out, and when the NGR stuff had come out.

As the comparison has gone, we'll stick with all the current robots and PA both sides have listed. Why? Because that is what was originally questioned, critiqued, and compared. You can't just change the topic at-hand to suit your comparison; it's biased and shows that the original comparison did not favor you.

That's why I didn't respond.

No, we're pitting the CS gear from the same PA dates: 103, was when the Triax book was dated. In an argument using the oldest published CS gear you wouldn't even have the Abolisher. You also seem to be backing away from your claim that even the CS gear from before CWC was superior to the NGR gear however - which is interesting.

And I don't think we will stick with all the current robots and PA both sides have listed. Why? Because the only people debating this are you, Lenwen and myself. We both believe the CS gear as updated in CWC should and will have corresponding updates for the increased time period on the NGR side of things, because the NGR is described as having superior robotics & power armour. You disagree, though I'm not sure why.

[Lenwen]

No, we're pitting the CS gear from the same PA dates: 103, was when the Triax book was dated. In an argument using the oldest published CS gear you wouldn't even have the Abolisher. You also seem to be backing away from your claim that even the CS gear from before CWC was superior to the NGR gear however - which is interesting.

And I don't think we will stick with all the current robots and PA both sides have listed. Why? Because the only people debating this are you, Lenwen and myself. We both believe the CS gear as updated in CWC should and will have corresponding updates for the increased time period on the NGR side of things, because the NGR is described as having superior robotics & power armour. You disagree, though I'm not sure why.

What say You Talavar ?

How many Jager's do you think the NGR has ? ( its listed at being a fully 25%of the overall mech military of the NGR)

Do you think that a Jager with the missle drum , Can attack a Sam from 5 miles out , and the Sam is going to do a simo attack ? (Despite , the Sams weapon systems do not exceed 6,000 ft )

What about that % of even doing a simo attack ? At ranges of over a mile .. is that even possible ?

What are your thoughts on striking that samas ( -6 ) for the Jager ?

Whats the possabilities of the Samas even shooting down a 8+ missle barrage from 4+ Miles out ?

**EDIT**
What do you safly consider the Garg Empire numbers at ?
From reading both NGR and Mindwerks about the Garg/Brodkil empires I see in NGR book ..
W.B. 5 pg# 220 .
"Further , the brodkils true numbers are nearly twice what the ngr intelligence believes they are , with over a million hiding in the carpethian mountains ."

W.B. 5 pg# 219 .
Thier numbers , Compared to the gargoylas, are small The NGR estimates not more then 5 million are scattered in seemingly disjointed tribes and communities " .

That puts the Brodkil empire at OVER 10 million alone . And Compared to the gargoyals , those numbers are small .

So to me that puts the Gargoyal population in the tens of millions , since the Brodkil numbers sit right around ten million . ( Not counting the 1 million hiding in the carpethian mountains.)

[Mack]

Learn to play nice or Official Warnings will be issued.

If you're not sure if this applies to you, it does.

Topic Locked.