Peer Review of TW P.P.E. Battery

[Khanibal]

Okay, try this.

P.P.E. Capacitor
Stores 500 P.P.E.
Device Level: 5
P.P.E. Construction Cost: 200
Activation Cost: 20
Spells Required: Energy Sphere(120), Talisman(500)
Gems Required: 6-26 carat Ruby Quartz (center and 5 points[46,500cr]), 1-1 carat Malachite[2,500cr], 25 carats of Diamond dust[375,000cr]
Mundane Materials: 2 sheets of copper foil, some copper wire, 1 metal tube, some nonconductive gel, some nonconductive adhesive, some nonconductive foam, 2 plastic end caps[approx.1,000cr]
Construction Cost: 435,000cr (10,000 spells, 424,000 gems, 1,000 materials)
Construction Time: 100 hours

Coat the inside to the metal tube with nonconductive adhesive, and then line the tube with the foam. Using the copper wire, attach Ruby Quartz cluster to one copper sheet. Attach the Malachite to the other copper sheet. Apply adhesive to 1 copper sheet. Apply Diamond dust. Cover with second copper sheet taking care that the sheets do NOT make contact with each other (liberal use of nonconductive gel is recommended). Roll up the copper sheets together and insert into the tube, cushioning the ends with the foam. Cut the plastic caps to fit around the wires leading from the gems. Using the adhesive, cap the ends with the plastic caps leavin the gems free.

Actually this is more of a P.P.E. capacitor.
Here is my reasoning, constructive criticism sought.

Energy Sphere at 5th level of effect allows the 500 P.P.E. storage

Talisman allows P.P.E. to be stored past the 2 days per level (in this instance 10 days) expiration limit set by the Energy Sphere spell.

The Diamond dust, while not strictly necessary for the creation of an Energy Sphere, allows the mage to store the P.P.E. without that glowy ball "Hey C.S. boy, shoot me first" look.

"Prime" the device with 20 P.P.E. and charge up to 500. While it would be free to drain P.P.E. from the device, it will cost 20 points every time the mage charges.

Where did I go wrong?

[Library Ogre]

Looks pretty reasonable, to me. I'd probably insist that the metal tube be something other than iron, and kick up the PPE-to-create cost, but it looks reasonable. About what do you figure it to cost?

[Khanibal]

The cost calculates out to 434,ooo cr.
The low P.P.E to create cost is due the the oversized Ruby Quartz. Since the Quartz is relatively inexpensive, it seemed to be a wise cost-cutting measure to use the bigger gems. The whole setting shouldn't be very large, since it takes 142 carats to make up 1 ounce.

[Library Ogre]

The cost calculates out to 434,ooo cr.
The low P.P.E to create cost is due the the oversized Ruby Quartz. Since the Quartz is relatively inexpensive, it seemed to be a wise cost-cutting measure to use the bigger gems. The whole setting shouldn't be very large, since it takes 142 carats to make up 1 ounce.

Okely-dokely; I've never really gotten the hang of the RAW, but half a million sounds pretty good for something this valuable.

[Starmage21]

The cost calculates out to 434,ooo cr.
The low P.P.E to create cost is due the the oversized Ruby Quartz. Since the Quartz is relatively inexpensive, it seemed to be a wise cost-cutting measure to use the bigger gems. The whole setting shouldn't be very large, since it takes 142 carats to make up 1 ounce.

Okely-dokely; I've never really gotten the hang of the RAW, but half a million sounds pretty good for something this valuable.

I dont see it being that awesomely valuable. Just a larger version of PPE clips.

[Library Ogre]

The cost calculates out to 434,ooo cr.
The low P.P.E to create cost is due the the oversized Ruby Quartz. Since the Quartz is relatively inexpensive, it seemed to be a wise cost-cutting measure to use the bigger gems. The whole setting shouldn't be very large, since it takes 142 carats to make up 1 ounce.

Okely-dokely; I've never really gotten the hang of the RAW, but half a million sounds pretty good for something this valuable.

I dont see it being that awesomely valuable. Just a larger version of PPE clips.

This is, as I read it, storage for PPE. Not common.

[Khanibal]

I'm not sure you can just suck the juice out of a P.P.E. clip. The rules for TW items say you can drain 10 P.P.E. per action (or round I don't remember exactly) unless you're a TW. Since the purpose of the clip is to store and disburse energy, it might be an exception.

[Khanibal]

Edited device description to include construction cost and time.

[Khanibal]

I'm not using Talisman to generate the Energy Sphere spell. That spell is already embeded in the device. I'm using it for it's ability to store P.P.E. in an object. The fact is I could create the device significantly cheaper with just the Energy Sphere effect. The reason for the Talisman spell and the 375,000cr of Diamond is to store the energy internally, rather than have the neon basketball floating along behind your shoulder.

[Kaleb]

I think it is very good. The wizards in the UWE in Phase World have PPE generators and PPE storage batteries for their ships which run highly on PPE so why not a device that can hold lots of PPE.

I have developed similar items for characters in my games using the same types of spells.

[dark brandon]

I have no problem with it. Since it requires the player to put the PPE into the device, I don't see it being much of a problem since for a time he'll be empty of PPE

Course, as a GM, unless the player made some rolls, I'd see it get kinda wonky near LL and Nexus points.

[Khanibal]

P.P.E. clip is WB:16 Federation of Magic pg. 112. The book doesn't say how much P.P.E. the clip can hold, but the weapons on the following pages detail how many shots a clip provides and a little estimating from the amount it takes to power the weapon without the clip places the storage of the clip at approximately 40 P.P.E.

I've read the rule on pg. 131, and I believe it only refers to P.P.E. stored to be used to activate the device. It also mentions Talisman and Energy Sphere based devices as being more appropriate to store power. Remember, the diamond is only there to negate the need for the glowy floaty ball. A device could be built to generate the e-sphere at a significantly lower cost.

As far as the high-level spells necessary to build the device. TW can have pinch-casters assist by casting spells for them. The half-million for the device is the construction cost. It would be sold for significantly more.

[Glistam]

I like it overall but I don't think I'd let one of my players make one and have it store 500 P.P.E.. That amount seems excessive to me.

[Khanibal]

Considering that 1 oz. of gem is approx. 142 carats, and I'm only using 25 carats or about 18% of an ounce, this device should be about the size of a roll of quarters. From the description of the 200 P.P.E. battery from WB:28 Arzno - Vampire Incursion (five 2-carat diamonds in a bar of copper) it's about the size of a pack of gum, and costs about 400k credits retail. Remember the price of the device is it's construction cost. The TW who actually makes one will sell for much higher. How much would your caster pay?

[Khanibal]

That's fine. Rule #1 is "It's the GM's game." I was just exploring the TW system. According the the rules as written, I believe the device is a legal build.

Btw, that 15th level LLW will be casting Energy Sphere and storing 1500 P.P.E. for a duration of 30 days.

[Khanibal]

Yeah, no kidding what attacks escape the "most" that won't affect the ES? The only things they name are magic affecting spells.

[Khanibal]

All valid concerns, but they are the concern of the GM. A few notes.
1) If you are the TW building this thing, it's going to take a long time away from adventuring. If someone else is building this, then they better owe you a huge favor to devote this much time to the construction, and even then you're footing the expenses bill (the .5M). Otherwise, you'll be paying at least 1M for it, and the TW who built it will probably start building them left and right. Weapon escalation works the same way.
2) The P.P.E. clips and batteries are all mass-produced (as much as possible). Consequently, Stormspire and A.M.C. aren't interested in pushing the limits of the possibilities.
3) I designed the device according to the RAW. This is why all rules must pass under the careful scrutiny of the GM.

I don't know how long it takes a pc to save up 1M creds of moola in anyone's game, but if you feel it's unbalancing at that level, then tell him that no TW he speaks to is willing to take on such a tremendous experimental task.
If you won't allow it just because there's no documented, stamped, and notorized instance of a npc building one, then...
That's lame.

[dark brandon]

It looks good to me, honestly though, people who are going to penalize TW pc's from thinking freely just tell them before they make the character that it isn't even worth it. I've seen some pretty creative things across the forums that have been bashed upon for supposedly being called OP or munchkin for really stupid reasons.. I guarantee I could come up with something a lot more munchkin for less and have it be completely canon.

Don't penalize players for thinking -we reward exp for thinking outside the box.

At the same time, don't reward munckin thinking.

I've seen just as many bad ideas with the simple notion of being munckin.

While something like this I'd allow, I'd have some GM rulings to help offset it. For example how much the mage can pull in a melee round. I see no reason this should be any more potent than being near a ley line, which the current rules are you can pull 10 a melee round, 20 if your a LLW. In this case, any mage would pull 10 per melee round, and only a TW can pull 20 per melee round.

[Khanibal]

Interesting DB. How do you rule on wizies drawing from a normal ES?

Also, on the subject of munchkinhood. Since the only restrictions on Talisman are no iron or plastic, and must not be LARGER than 2' in any dimension, shouldn't people be even more fearful of the mage with a dozen small rings piercing each ear?

[dark brandon]

Interesting DB. How do you rule on wizies drawing from a normal ES?

ES? Energy Sphere....The spell itself says how much they can draw, which can be up to all at once.

[dark brandon]

That's his point. The Battery is using energy sphere as it's main spell. Hence the question he raised. This is obviously an alternitive that he is trying to come up with so that a mage might be able to cast a large PPE combat spell without giving away that he is a mage with the glowing blue ball. Yes it is powerful, but so is power armor, and they both have high cost. We are sorry you are afraid of 'munchkins' thank you to everyone for throwing around labels in their posts to get that wonderful emotional content without actually having to present a valid argument. Yes 'munchkins' are out there whooah better watch out. After all isn't it 'just a game'? and aren't you and the players there to 'have fun' DB? Everything has cost, if you think this item is powerful then adjust accordingly would be my advice to everyone else. Could even make for a decent adventure avenue for a player. Even if he isn't a TW.

Fun is a relative term.

I could give everyone in my group PA that is indestructible, Giga-damage weapons, all psionic powers and put them against groups of cactus people with sticks. That could be "fun".

When I make a game, when I allow a TW item, being that I'm the GM...I take everyones "fun" into consideration. That's part of being the GM. Munchkins don't care about others "fun"...all they care about is being the best...It's also part of GM to try and do your best to keep the game from getting too unbalanced and to make compromises, and the compromise I presented doesn't seem all that unfair, make the battery still VERY useful.

After all, he can still cast his high level spells...but it is going to take some planning. And if all else fails, and he doesn't/can't wait...he can always break it and free the PPE...in a vein sacrificing it.

What you mistake for fear is really called responcibility.

[dark brandon]

It amazes me your ability to take out of context the main thrust of a post and respond to a small part of it with such condensation and 'high' moral ground. As far as responcibilty goes what the &^$! are you talking about? The guy asked if his battery was legal and what people thought. You keep going off with MUNCKIN!! It's a powerful item yes, everybody agrees with that. You are scared of your players getting to much power gotcha, you can't handle it, I understand, but when was that the issue? I mean I think the guy used a fairly strait forward, sanctioned method to come up with the battery. I mean the formula he used is in the RUE. I didn't think that TW items could hold that much and said so, at which point I was reffered to WB 29. Not given screams of 'MUNCHKIN!!!' which you seem so eager to throw around, but a logical and valid counter-point. TW battery in WB29, there it is, hmmmm, that changes how I thought before and hence the discussion goes on. And between your creis of 'MUNCHKIN!!!' you did come up with what you would thought would be a limiting factor on the battery, that of PPE draw per round. Now that's valid, you did the post in a pretensous tone meant to imply that your view of it all was obvious but yeah it was a good point. To that He answered that Energy sphere, aka the PRIMARY spell in his battery proponent could have the up to all the PPE drawn out at once. Now the implied question there was ' What are your thoughts on that changing the amount of PPE you can draw from my proposed battery because of Energy Sphere being it's primary spell AND that it's whole purpose is being a battery, aka a storage device for the sole purpose of easy retrieval of PPE?' to that you again took a small part of his post and responded to it completely missing that he was asking you a legitimate question trying to futher the vein of the discussion. Which you again condesendingly answered, ' uh duh, it's in the spell description' true it is, which was his point. I pointed this out, you again raised the 'MUNCHKIN!!!' warnings and was condesending with me, which really I don't mind, I'm a &&&& I know. But please, leave the guy alone, and ANSWER HIS QUESTION, I highlighted it in blue here earlier. Go back, read it, and with out talking down to him with out sitting on your haughty 'beware of the munchkins' horse, answer the man. Please.

I did?

Really...quote me where I called it munchkin.

1st post:

I have no problem with it. Since it requires the player to put the PPE into the device, I don't see it being much of a problem since for a time he'll be empty of PPE

Course, as a GM, unless the player made some rolls, I'd see it get kinda wonky near LL and Nexus points.

2nd post:

At the same time, don't reward munckin thinking.

I've seen just as many bad ideas with the simple notion of being munckin.

While something like this I'd allow, I'd have some GM rulings to help offset it. For example how much the mage can pull in a melee round. I see no reason this should be any more potent than being near a ley line, which the current rules are you can pull 10 a melee round, 20 if your a LLW. In this case, any mage would pull 10 per melee round, and only a TW can pull 20 per melee round.

So far, I've not called it munchkin. One person said don't stifle creativity, I merely said don't reward munchkin thinking either. Being a GM, you have to balance the two.

3rd post:

ES? Energy Sphere....The spell itself says how much they can draw, which can be up to all at once.

Khanibal didn't seem to too upset. He mearly regarded how I handled ES. I guess you could call giving a straight answer "condescending"...If he had a point beyond this, I didn't get that. I figure he was asking if I ruled ES differently than what is written.

It seems to me...you need to go back and reread the thread. He wanted a peer review...he got it. Hey, an you know what...he even got some constructive criticism from me. (The ironic thing is, you were first to call it "overpowered" and suggested what he wanted to spend was too cheap. I on the other hand was willing to let it go except maybe add some effects when near LL and Nexus points)

I guess I could go on some rant about how you game...what you allow or how you allow it...and other things I have absolutely no idea about, much like you did to me, but...call me humble, I don't' think a few posts on the interwebs say anything about anyone or how they game. Obviously, you seem to differ.

[Khanibal]

Ok, everybody chill.

1) The device is legal according to the RAW.
2) The RAW are ALWAYS subject to each GM's interpretation.
3) No two GM's are ever identical in their interpretation of the RAW.
4) All GM's interpretations are valid as long as they can keep players.
5) Bullet points are fun.

[cornholioprime]

I agree with the general tone of everything that's been said here, but I have a (at least one) suggestion to make:

How about, as a balancing limitation, that this "Super TW Battery" is attuned to ONLY one person at a time, and unlike PPE in a ritual with multiple persons, CANNOT be freely give or used by anyone except the Mage that the PPE Battery is attuned to??

IMO, that would make the device a leetle less "borderline munchkin" if the PC couldn't just let some other Mage borrow his massive PPE stash at will. (and make the Attunement Ceremony/Ritual/Process cost a grip of money in its own right -even more if the device has to be "reset" from one mage to another). It should be downright painful in monetary and/or quest terms (maybe the PCs have to find "rare Gem X" on a quest of their own?) to get this device in the first place.


Just a suggestion.

[Thinyser]

I have no problem with it. Since it requires the player to put the PPE into the device, I don't see it being much of a problem since for a time he'll be empty of PPE

Course, as a GM, unless the player made some rolls, I'd see it get kinda wonky near LL and Nexus points.

I agree that the player pumping PPE in keeps it relatively balanced. While at a LL or nexus it would be easier to quickly refill it its still more dangerous to be hanging out at these places for long periods of time than it is to avoid them so I think this is a good balance too. So the only rolling that is needed is a good random encounter roll to see if there is something else that is utilizing the benefits of the LL or nexus too.

[Galroth]

Okay, try this.

P.P.E. Capacitor
Stores 500 P.P.E.
Device Level: 5
P.P.E. Construction Cost: 200
Activation Cost: 20
Spells Required: Energy Sphere(120), Talisman(500)
Gems Required: 6-26 carat Ruby Quartz (center and 5 points[46,500cr]), 1-1 carat Malachite[2,500cr], 25 carats of Diamond dust[375,000cr]
Mundane Materials: 2 sheets of copper foil, some copper wire, 1 metal tube, some nonconductive gel, some nonconductive adhesive, some nonconductive foam, 2 plastic end caps[approx.1,000cr]
Construction Cost: 435,000cr (10,000 spells, 424,000 gems, 1,000 materials)
Construction Time: 100 hours

Coat the inside to the metal tube with nonconductive adhesive, and then line the tube with the foam. Using the copper wire, attach Ruby Quartz cluster to one copper sheet. Attach the Malachite to the other copper sheet. Apply adhesive to 1 copper sheet. Apply Diamond dust. Cover with second copper sheet taking care that the sheets do NOT make contact with each other (liberal use of nonconductive gel is recommended). Roll up the copper sheets together and insert into the tube, cushioning the ends with the foam. Cut the plastic caps to fit around the wires leading from the gems. Using the adhesive, cap the ends with the plastic caps leavin the gems free.

Actually this is more of a P.P.E. capacitor.
Here is my reasoning, constructive criticism sought.

Energy Sphere at 5th level of effect allows the 500 P.P.E. storage

Talisman allows P.P.E. to be stored past the 2 days per level (in this instance 10 days) expiration limit set by the Energy Sphere spell.

The Diamond dust, while not strictly necessary for the creation of an Energy Sphere, allows the mage to store the P.P.E. without that glowy ball "Hey C.S. boy, shoot me first" look.

"Prime" the device with 20 P.P.E. and charge up to 500. While it would be free to drain P.P.E. from the device, it will cost 20 points every time the mage charges.

Where did I go wrong?

How do you get past the -1% per point of ppe storage to your TW Construction roll?

[X'Zanthar]

There is little cost to enchanting a bag (or roll of) pennies with the talisman PPE storage and walking about with 1500 PPE for little cost. True charging them up again is a pain, but you can have several bags/rolls.

Really, the item seems good by me. I would stipulate that it costs 1 PPE to charge it per PPE recharged, so to refill 50 PPE would cost you 100 PPE, similair to the Talisman spell. My dragon shames all dragon by being poor, and could not afford to buy something like that, even at cost.

The fact that a spellcaster gets alot of stored PPE tweaks some folks is interesting. I have seen quite a few instances where the caster would have died if not for stored PPE after being drained by a stalker or something.

[dragonfett]

Let's not forget that the device should be closer to 2.5 million and here's why. As per page 131, section number 10 of the the TW Creation Guidlines, any TW device capable of storing PPE is subject to an increase to a 1% in the construction cost alone. And since 500 PPE would equal 500%, and 500% of roughly half a million is in the neighborhood of 2.5 million, its base cost should be about that. Oh, and while this one would be up more for a GM's interpretation, there is the whole matter of the -1% per point of PPE the device can store to the TW Construction Roll, and -500% equals unable to make. I had said that it would be up for GM interpretation because of the fact that these rules covers TW devices that have some other function other storing PPE. The rules don't say anything about creating a TW device for the purpose of PPE storage, however there are the PPE clips and the PPE battery from the Arzno books, so they are in theory possible to make, but the rules for doing so are no where to be found (that I have seen so far).

[Mallak's Place]

We have something very similar in our game with 3 alterations
#1: since the Energy Sphere created is the size of a soccer ball the container has to be large enough to hold somthing that size, Ours are about the same size a 5 Gallon Kerosene Can (complete with handle).
#2: The Talisman spell requires double the xp to rechage the P.P.E. battery version of the spell and the Energy Sphere can only absorb energy for 10 minutes per activation. We put that together so you have to activate the device and pump it with twice the P.P.E. that it can hold within 10 Minutes (1000 P.P.E. in this case), plus you can't refill the TW Item until you drain all the PPE it already has, this a property of both spells.
#3: We add Sub-Particle Acceleration as a Secondary Spell.

[dragonfett]

What did Sub-Particle Acceleration do as a secondary spell?

[pblackcrow]

For what it's worth, I have actually used a spell that we found in an on-line netbook, Tiny’s Giant Spell Netbook called crystal battery. We did increase the Initial PPE cost to 60 and bump it up to like 9th level. Also we use magical foci which reduces a percentage of PPE required to cast a spell.

Example: my PF level 10 Wizard has a to cast Teleport: superior, and has 50 PPE left. His focus is a rather week one...only 15%, but it can be used more times a day (4 times), where as 20% could only be uses 3 times; 25 2 times; and 30 (which are EXTREMELY rare and very costly) only once. But it will only bump 90 off of the 600 cost. But he has a rather large flawless red diamond that's worth 25,000 gold that he has been keeping charged up. So he has 500 PPE right there which he can channel into himself in about 10 rounds and use it with his existing 50 PPE and use the focus to channel the energy. That's if his team mates can manage to keep the dragon at bay or busy for about 1.25 minute. Which surprisingly enough, they were able to. GM rolled really badly for the Eddumar, the dragon, to attack as I recall. But anyway, about a minute later, he shouts, "Quick, hug me." They grab our 3 bags of gold that were part of the evil dragon's hoard and hugged him. Ticked Eddumar him off something horrible. He stole it from the people and we returned it to the people and he would soon find out our nick names and, uh, well...You can imagine he had his fun at our expense. He morphed into a beat-up almost naked, boy. And showed up at my tower wanting refuge from his abusive step father. Completely lost, filthy, bruised up, 10-year-olds didn't exactly uh trigger any alarms with my character. Plus he had a charm, he said his mother gave him it before she died, that could mask evil and hide his aura. It was like 3 months later that Eddumar pounced. All the time earning my trust and getting to know me. We defeated him. It wasn't easy going against a 750 something year old dragon who read your journals of your adventures, knew your tricks, gotten close to you, to kill you and your friends.

Anyway, here's the spell. Hope it has helped someone.

Crystal Battery
PPE: 20
This is, in effect, one of the only incantation spells that really requires physical components, crystals. This spell requires quality crystal to store magic energy, but only magic energy... not spells.
Effect: Stores magic energy (PPE) in a crystal PPE Stored: a crystal can hold 1 PPE per 50 credits(/gold) of value. When PPE is stored in a crystal, it does glow (whatever colour the crystal is) and radiates magic quite clearly (can not be hidden). The mage casting the spell can put as much energy in the crystal as s/he desires, as long as the crystal can handle the energy and the energy is available (from self, ley lines, etc.).


Thanks for reading.

[dragonfett]

TW creation guidelines are in the RUE at the tail end of the Techno-Wizard OCC section. My RUE is buried and I am too lazy to dig out the book just for a page reference.

[Mallak's Place]

What did Sub-Particle Acceleration do as a secondary spell?

In our game TW-items need a energy generating spell as part of the spell chain. This rule was based on observation of the spell chains in the original rifts book. Example the Mystic Optic system uses Globe of Daylight, Energy Bolt, See Aura, See the Invisible, and Detect Concealment. what is the Energy Bolt spell used for?

[drewkitty ~..~]

What I see in the purposed "TW Capacitor" is more of a TW style battery talisman then a TW battery.

with normal TW stuff it does not cost any extra PPE to charge the battery, and that this one does cost the extra PPE to charge it up.
It also looks like the poster is hedging his TW item on the side of caution to get it past a GM's automatic 'No' response to anything really cool to make.

It also seams there should be a third spell, an energy spell of some sort, involved with the item creation.
----------------
Another thing would be that looking at the physical components for the item my thoughts were turned toward thinking of a E-clip that turned PPE into electrical power to power a normal rifle or pistol.

[dragonfett]

Um Drewkitty, you do realize that all a battery really is is a capacitor that can be easily removed and does not discharge it's entire load of electricity at one time, right?

[drewkitty ~..~]

I know the 'real world' differences between a cap and a bat. And not they are not the same thing even if they do nearly the same jobs to store electrical energy.

However, with the PB game world you can access or fill a TW battery's full charge in an action.

And I was making a distinction between what was purposed and the standard TW PPE Bat. Which is about the same as between Talisman PPE Bat's and standard TW PPE Bat's.
[PPE clips fall under the Talisman PPE Bat's. So it can be said that the purposed is more like a PPE clip, then anything else.]