Fuel supply for Macross Destroids..

[Chris0013]

The Valkyrie is stated as having 48 hours of fuel...how about the Destroids...how long can they go with out refueling???

[Tiree]

I would give them about the same amount of fuel.

[Lt. Holmes]

Otherwise, you end up with people just playing veritech pilots

... you mean there are OTHER mecha to pilot?

because so many see the destroids as slow, and taking forever to get anywhere (in particular if they're tied to a certain operating time away from base).

But they are!

[ShadowLogan]

Veritechs would only need to carry fuel for use in space; they should be able to use the atmosphere to provide thrust (as contemporary jets do). Contemporary jets need fuel to heat the atmosphere sucked into their turbines to push it out as thrust. A Veritech would presumably have the reactor (running on Proto) to that.

Destroids would likely be limited by pilot’s endurance and the need for routine maintenance and likely would be able to perform longer periods than a Veritech (IMO).

Contemporary jets still need the atmosphere to provide the oxygen to ignite the fuel. There are some jet engine types that are mechanically simple and have few if any moving parts to generate thrust.

The Veritechs are still going to need fuel for their reactors.

The Valkyrie is stated as having 48 hours of fuel...how about the Destroids...how long can they go with out refueling???

It is easier to estimate the Valkyrie's fuel supply over the Destroids because they are the focus of the show. Max is able to operate his unit to resuce his the rest of his flight members who where captured by the Zentraedi. We know the Fold took 24hrs or so. Now add in the pre- and post-Fold time the unit was active.

When we see Destroids they are usually close to home.

[ShadowLogan]

Contemporary jets still need the atmosphere to provide the oxygen to ignite the fuel. There are some jet engine types that are mechanically simple and have few if any moving parts to generate thrust.

I was unaware anyone said contemporary jets wouldn't need oxygen. I am certain that I didn't say such a thing. As for complexity of an engine, what was you’re point?

The way you worded it previously indicated that the air coming into a jet engine was only used for one purpose and not involved in the combustion process.

There are jet engine types that are mechanically simpler than you outlined.

I don't think a Valkerie is going to have two weeks worth of reaction mass inside it.

It could in space depending on how efficient the engine is. Just for the 48hr supply it requires 172800sec to "burn" the propellant. Specific Impulse being what it is, Nuclear Fusion drive or better is being used.

Is that 2weeks propellant or simply life support supplies. Manned space vehicles tend to carry more life support supplies than they do propellant (measured in sec. of use).

[glitterboy2098]

It could in space depending on how efficient the engine is. Just for the 48hr supply it requires 172800sec to "burn" the propellant. Specific Impulse being what it is, Nuclear Fusion drive or better is being used.

Is that 2weeks propellant or simply life support supplies. Manned space vehicles tend to carry more life support supplies than they do propellant (measured in sec. of use).

This assumes the VF would be thrusting, or burning fuel, for 48 straight hours. Spacecraft generally don't “burn” continuously like that.

your absolutely right. which means it has a total of 48 yours of thrust time available to it. though that too is a gross simplification, since the same SLMH fuel supply is being used in the fusion reactors of the drive to provide power as well, even when the drives are not thrusting. though that fuel use is going to be a trickle compared to the amounts needed to generate thrust.

given the difficulty of getting a fusion reaction started, it's likely when not under thrust the drives are 'idling', fusion fuel at a miniscule rate (just as a speculation for the sake of debate, say 1/10th the rate used when thrusting*), and the magnetic confinement of the drive torch tuned to dissipate the waste gas in a way that imparts minimal thrust.

in an atmosphere, the drives could just run at this 'idle' level and super heat air, but air getting into a fusion reaction tends to do not nice things to the reactor, so the drives would have to be designed to use the fusion space drive's reactor as a heat source and keep the air out of the reactor itself....since we see just this sort of thing in the technical cutaways from the original macross source material (we see intakes, compressor stages, and what looks to be a sleeve for airflow around the main drive....), i think it's likely thats how it works.

a VF wanting to boost suborbital (like we see Roy's fighter do early in the show), would just shut off the air intakes, switch to pure fusion drive (as opposed to the fusion nuclear thermal jet used for atmospheric use), and boost out of the atmosphere on internal fuel.

*when used as a drive, alot of SLMH fuel is going to be wasted compared to the amount used in the reaction. it wouldn't all be fused, most of it would be merely superheated and vented out the back along with the fusion waste. thus that "wasted" fusion fuel becomes the reaction mass which makes the drive work.




for destroids, i can't see thme using a fusion reactor much different from a VF-1 veritech, just without the parts that let it run as a space drive. so it would always be running in the "idle" mode. i'd say they likely carry a fraction of the fuel load due ot this, but due ot the much lower fuel use, that fuel load can last somewhat longer in active operation.

how long is up to the GM, but i'd say a five day period of runtime between refuelings might not be too outrageous. equal to a 12 hour (of thrust) fuel load for a VF-1, or about 1/4 the total VF-1 fuel load.



in both cases, this illustrates why the UEEF (and probably ASC) adopted protoculture power plants as soon as they were available. with the power aspect of the vehicle seperate from the drive, and the powerplant itself able to last for weeks to months with less fuel use, it gives Protoculture powered vehicles a major edge in the supply catagories. fewer refuelings mean the fuel supply will go alot farther. so instead of having to resupply a ship or bases SLMH tanks every few months, they could get by with every year or so. enabling longer missions and simplifying supply lines.

the main drawback being that now you have to deal with issues of reaction mass as well as fuel for powerplants, but since the remass could be simple water through a thermal expansion drive (heated by the PC reactor), and still provide similar thrust efficencies. in an atmosphere, you wouldn't need to worry about remass at all, just refueling the powerplant when needed. since water is fairly common in space (just stop by comets when needed), and might be the remass used by starship in the first place*, it's going to be easier to keep in supply than SLMH.

*pure speculation on my part, but given that we have no evidence the zentreadi use reactionless drives, and that earth ships use some form of reaction drive for their ships, they have to use something as remass. protoculture will power the ship, but i doubt they'd waste it as mas dumped out the rear of the ship for thrust.

[glitterboy2098]

All this loops back on the extremely poor, and unfounded from anime perspective, decision to have alternative “fusion” engines as well as Protocultre. It absolutely breaks the series point of Protoculture being the power source of the world/galaxy. It makes little sense, story wise, to have all these conflicts over Protoculture when an older, possibly easier, technology exists that could accomplish the same thing.

an older technology, which uses massive amounts of expensive fuel, can't generate the power needed to efficently run a starship, which got abandoned only decades after it's development in favor of a more efficent source of power, and uses infrastructure that would be largely gone in the 2040's due to repeated planetary invasions and destruction?

protoculture is easier to make, easier to use, is more efficent in power generation, and available in mass quantities (first due to the zent fleet, later the invid farms/master's matrix)

SLMH requires specilized high pressure systems and facilities to make and store, requires water cracking plants to produce the hydrogen needed as raw materials. it runs through large quantities of fuel, which results in reduced ranges/operating periods. as a result, storage of enough fuel to operate for any given time is bulkier than PC. the systems needed to produce it in bulk quantities would not lend themselves well to being made portable, and would mostly be planetbound (where there is usually a large supply of hydrogen to draw on for raw material)

SLMH fusion allows a race to become a spacefaring culture, with viable in-solar system spacecraft and reasonably cheap orbital launch vehicles.

protoculture allows a race to become a Star-faring culture, able to travel outside their own solar system. you can't really do that with just fusion (at least, not at a cost that makes it worthwhile). PC, which gives ultra-long duration powerplants with compact fuel supplies, allows a race to use things like fold drives to travel to the stars.


it's all a moot point anyway, since the earth's SLMH production capability is going ot be gone by the 2040's. between the zentreadi bombardment destroying the original facilities and stockpiles, the masters destruction of the rebuilt cities and infrastructure, and the invid obliterating most of what was left........yeah, good luck finding an intact SLMH supply, much less a production facility.

[Tiree]

In order to allow a New Gen game with all the mecha from prior wars, I have had to do some tweaking to the rules. I have made a ruling that a VF can produce SLMH but only in small quantities, but requires vast amounts of raw material. It also takes time, approximately 3 times longer than what the VF could hold. The only Mecha that can provide more faster, is the Mac II as it is under armored and quite large... it was a benefit for such a vehicle.

[glitterboy2098]

an older technology, which uses massive amounts of expensive fuel, can't generate the power needed to efficently run a starship, which got abandoned only decades after it's development in favor of a more efficent source of power, and uses infrastructure that would be largely gone in the 2040's due to repeated planetary invasions and destruction?

Are you talking about fusion or Protoculture here?

fusion.

protoculture is easier to make, easier to use, is more efficent in power generation, and available in mass quantities (first due to the zent fleet, later the invid farms/master's matrix)

If Protoculture was so easy to make, what exactly was the purpose of the Masters invasion of Earth in The Robotech Masters saga for?
All I know is, that in the show, the VF-1 seemed a helluva lot more “efficient” fuel wise than the Alpha Fighter, and the latter is supposed to be using the new and improved PC engines.

and yet in the RPG, a few hundred gallons of SLMH fuels will power a Vf-1 for a few days, while a handful of P-cells (little bigger than a soda can) will run an alpha for weeks.


as for the purpose of the invasion, ease of production doesn't nessicarily mean it isn't constrained by resources. the master's supply was running low. not because it was hard ot make, but because they didn't have enough unmutated FoL. that's born out in the dialog pretty clearly.

SLMH requires specilized high pressure systems and facilities to make and store, requires water cracking plants to produce the hydrogen needed as raw materials. it runs through large quantities of fuel, which results in reduced ranges/operating periods. as a result, storage of enough fuel to operate for any given time is bulkier than PC. the systems needed to produce it in bulk quantities would not lend themselves well to being made portable, and would mostly be planetbound (where there is usually a large supply of hydrogen to draw on for raw material

There is nothing to suggest that the equipment needed to make Protoculture would be man-portable or non-bulky either. We never do see how Protoculture Cells, for example, are actually made. We can point to the large sized reflex power plants though, for example the one on Mars base.

SLMH fusion allows a race to become a spacefaring culture, with viable in-solar system spacecraft and reasonably cheap orbital launch vehicles.

One doesn’t even need fusion, SLMH or otherwise, to become a space faring culture.

no, you just need something better than chemical rockets or ion/plasma drives. heck, even NERVA drives won't allow easy access to space.

fusion would. with fusion, you can build launch vehicles that can lift massive payloads. not the handful of tons our rockets and shuttles can do each.
fusion vehicles would allow manned space flight to just about anywhere in the star system, in timespans that make the trip worthwhile. using current technology, a trip to mars would take years. using a fusion drive, it could take month, weeks, or even Days. using current technology (including things like NERVA), a manned trip to jupiter or beyond is pretty much out of the question. it would take too long. using a fusion drive, it could be done in only slightly more time than a trip to mars. heck, using a fusion drive, you could have manned trips to the kupier belt and spend less than a year round trip!

to be spacefaring, you have to actually travel across space on a regular basis. piddling around a hundred thousand kilometers up, with a handful of trips out to 300,000km, and just the odd robot sent farther....thats not space faring.

protoculture allows a race to become a Star-faring culture, able to travel outside their own solar system. you can't really do that with just fusion (at least, not at a cost that makes it worthwhile). PC, which gives ultra-long duration powerplants with compact fuel supplies, allows a race to use things like fold drives to travel to the stars.

Of course, unless the Invid’s homeworld was in the same solar system as the Masters’ homeworld, then someone became a “star-faring” culture before discovering Protoculture. If it is Protoculture that allows “travel outside their own solar system” (as you said) how did the Masters ever discover it?
[/quote]
note my mention "not at a cost that makes it worthwhile". you could build a ship to pass beteen stars using fusion tech. heck, Project Daedalus designed such a craft. presumably you could power a robotech fold drive. you'd just use so much fuel to do so most of your ship would be fuel bunkerage.

anyone with fusion tech and the infrastructure to do so could build a massive spacecraft, a flying fueltank, to travel between the stars. it would be expensive, it would be slow, and they'd always be looking for a better method.

what protoculture did was allow interstellar travel to become common. not just some massive ships with low payloads and small crews, but massive fleets with big cargo capacities and huge crews. heck, entire flying cities, in the case of the master's motherships! thats starfaring. when travel between stars becomes common.

it's all a moot point anyway, since the earth's SLMH production capability is going ot be gone by the 2040's. between the zentreadi bombardment destroying the original facilities and stockpiles, the masters destruction of the rebuilt cities and infrastructure, and the invid obliterating most of what was left........yeah, good luck finding an intact SLMH supply, much less a production facility.

You seem to imply that they can find supplies and production facilities for Protocultre, why not the other?

lets see...after dolza's bombardment, earth has the protoculture reserves of 4+ million zentreadi ships it can draw on. thats alot of fuel. the masters show up, and find the old matrix, which then scatters flower of life, the source of protoculture, across the globe? and then the invid show up, take over all the stockpiles of protoculture (like norristown), and start building protoculture complexes and stockpiles all across the globe? (the hive near soldier town, the stockpile in new york, ect.....)

you start with a sizeable supply, then the earth gets carpeted with the raw material of it, and then the race that practically invented it shows up and starts cultivating it?

would you like to explain how you could not find a supply given those conditions?


now compare this to SLMH. it's obsolete. the mecha that used it are no longer in military use. spaceships that used it aren't around anymore*. the facilities on earth would probably have been targeted by both the zentreadi bombardment and the masters assualt, as well as the invid arrival. any that survived those three assualts would be 30+ years old, with limited supplies of spare parts for it's specialist equipment. it needs massive amounts of electrical power to produce the fuel. are there intact powerplants capable of providing sufficent power to run the machines nearby? powerplants that didn't use protoculture or look like a military base, and thus attract invid attention? with all the deaths caused by the invasions, are there people capable of running the equipment? of repairing the equipment? is there a water cracking station nearby to provide raw hydrogen? electricity for it? people who know how to run it? people who know how to fix it?


(*presumably the oberth space destroyer and ARMD would use SLMH, since the design pre-dates earth aqquisition of sizeable protoculture supplies)

[Oberoth]

Has anyone considered Protoculture to be an 'Ideal' fusion material?

Imagine a fuel that could be stored at room temperature; has one hundred times the energy density of conventional fusion materials, and doesn't produce any harmfull radiation. To me that's Protoculture. On top of those goodies add 'Bio-radiation'. This is the intrinsic ability to create a 'simbiotic' bond with living creatures. Also imagine that Protoculture could be a 'mono-fusable' fuel. This means that protoculture can fuse with itself rather than require a second component to combine with as with conventional fusion reactions.

Just throwing this out there for your thoughts.

[batlchip]

I thought they did show how portable Protoculture was in the Next Gen?

[ShadowLogan]

This assumes the VF would be thrusting, or burning fuel, for 48 straight hours. Spacecraft generally don't “burn” continuously like that.

Cav comparing a futuristic/sci-fi spacefighter's propulsion system to spacecraft propulsion systems currently in use is not a good comparision. Chemical Rockets (solid or liquid) designs have an efficiency (Called Specific Impulse) that tops out at around 500sec, and that is using the best possible propellant combination (LOX/LH). Electric Rocket designs (Ion, Arcjet, PlasmaJet, etc) deliever better efficiency, topping out at IIRC 10,000sec in some cases, but require large amounts of energy for very low thrust. Nuclear Fission Rocket designs (NERVA and other types) IIRC are around 1-2,000sec. Fusion and MAMA design proposals get into the 100,000sec or better range without trading thrust for efficiency.

All I know is, that in the show, the VF-1 seemed a helluva lot more “efficient” fuel wise than the Alpha Fighter, and the latter is supposed to be using the new and improved PC engines.

Aside from Ben's fuel (propellant) leak in one episode, when does the Veritech's fuel capacity come out as a plot point? For the NG group it was used as a plot point to have to recover protoculture for their mecha every so often. If we go by plot points concerning fuel the ASC Logan VT wins in the fuel efficiency since it's never brought up.

NG treated us to aspects of the logistics side of things (PC is addressed, but not all those missiles), TRM and TMS the logistics side occurs off screen much more than in NG. All of them had examples of maintaince going on with VTs.

One doesn’t even need fusion, SLMH or otherwise, to become a space faring culture.

No, but to be an efficient space faring culture we need propulsion systems that are more efficient than what we have currently in use and on the drawing boards for the near future. Current methods are also expensive, it costs IIRC $10,000/lb to put something into just low Earth orbit.

Current methods are also not up to practical two-way interstellar travel, and some of the proposals for interstellar travel do include the use of fusion drives as a practical method for it (baring the use of exotic physics). And even the fusion drives have limitations put on them.

lets see...after dolza's bombardment, earth has the protoculture reserves of 4+ million zentreadi ships it can draw on. thats alot of fuel.

Not really. The Zentraedi fleet was running on empty. A large majority of the 5+ million ships present where destroyed in "Force of Arms", this was reported to the Masters as a large discharge of protoculture. What was left is likely to be able to power the humananity for a good period of time, but a large percentage of the remaining Zentraedi protoculture at earth was destroyed.

[ShadowLogan]

What spacecraft did I compare anything against? I am talking about spaceflight in general. You only need to apply thrust when speeding up, slowing down or if you want to change the direction of movement.

Even in general comparing modern spaceflight methods to a sci-fi/futuristic setting does not work. They usually give them techno-babble names, but the performance seen is generally way above contemporary spaceflight technology. This leaves us looking at the more realworld futuristic technologies out there, atleast when we are not dealing with the obvious exotic physics and FTL methods seen sometimes in Sci-Fi.

You can try to dismiss the show if you want, but that’s your issue not mine. Of course, if one can argue that Protoculture refueling occurred off-screen, why can’t the easier and simpler counter be they didn’t get refueled because they didn’t need to?

I am not dismissing the show, but I am recognizing that the show treats refueling as more of a plot point.

The easier method is that the VF-1s are refueled off screen because we know it has fuel (due to Ben's leak). What we don't know is how efficient it is? Nor do we really know the Alpha's efficiency based on the show.

If we go with the VF-1 not needing to be refueled it begs a few followup questions? Why the change in fuel capacity as demonstrated on the Alpha? Why even put a large fuel supply like that on board in the first place? Can the vehicles with larger supplies top off the tanks so to speak (like the gas tank in your car vs the propane tanks for gas grills)?

BTW, why do you admonish me in the beginning of your response with “comparing a futuristic/sci-fi spacefighter's propulsion system to spacecraft propulsion systems currently in use is not a good comparision” and yet here you are, countering a comment I made with comparisons of Robotech propulsion systems to contemporary ones?

The later part was not intended to be part of the viability of using a fantasy substance (PC) for interstellar travel. It was intended in relation to real space travel. Really humanity is not a true spacefairing civilization yet (at least) as measured on the Kardashev Scale of Civilization (we do not even qualify as a Type 1, the low end of the scale).

I did agree with you that Fusion is not necessary for spaceflight (in retrospect it could have been worded better as "no fusion is not necessary, but..."). However, while spaceflight is possible with current technology, it is neither practical nor efficient in comparision to using fusion or other advanced approaches. Fusion really opens the door for practical and efficient spaceflight, not only on the interplanetary scale, but also for interstellar as it allows for much higher velocities to be achieved.

[Jefffar]

The VF-1s also perform aerodynamic style banked turns in space as well and the fuel leak on Dixon's plane comes from the nose - where it's very illogical to find a fuel tank.

I wouldn't say the artists had the best grasp of the realities of space flight or aircraft design when they created the show.

There does come a point when delving into detail needs to give way to the "awww that's cool" factor.

[Jefffar]

I am not dismissing the show, but I am recognizing that the show treats refueling as more of a plot point.

You certainly are. There is nothing from Macross Saga, nor The Robotech Masters Saga, to suggest that the powerplants of the mecha in the respective sagas were less efficient, or required more fuel ups than those seen in The New Generation.

To suggest otherwise is simply making something up.

This one goes in either direction. We have nothing in the show to indicate the the Macross or Master's Saga powerplants were more efficient either, it's all speculation.

That being said, a show focused on a resistance group operating outside of normal support channels is probably going to devote more time to basic maintenance issues than a show in which no-name characters can handle all the tasks off screen.

[Jefffar]

Or simply the machines run out out PC faster and more often.

We don't know for sure in any case.

[ShadowLogan]

Unless you want to say physics doesn’t come into play, you are just talking junk and again I’d point out I wasn’t and haven’t been comparing Robotech spaceships to real-world spaceships.

Yes you did when I stated how long the VF-1's engines can burn. You said "Spacecraft generally don't 'burn' continuously like that." Contemporary spacecraft cannot, but real world futuristic ones can based on the math. Which is why I went on that list of propulsion methods and their specific impulses (which effects other values).

I am not ignoring the physics, but I am aware that the propulsion system used changes the solution for the math. For example: Physics dictates launch windows into orbit and to other destinations in space. The launch windows take into account the propulsion system being used. The more efficient the propulsion system, the larger the launch windows can become.

You certainly are. There is nothing from Macross Saga, nor The Robotech Masters Saga, to suggest that the powerplants of the mecha in the respective sagas were less efficient, or required more fuel ups than those seen in The New Generation.

See Jeffar's post on this (phrased it better than I). I am not saying that the Unit A is more/less efficient than the Unit B from another generation since the show doesn't really give us a baseline to compare. You however are saying the VF-1 is more efficient than the Alpha. When I mentioned the Logan it was to show how absurd the method used to say the VF-1 was more efficient than the Alpha because of "fuel" dialogue or refueling actions.

Again, wholesale supposition. Whatever Ben’s VF leake, we don’t know what it was for. Was it for vernier thruster? Was it fuel for the life support system? We don’t know, so to speculate that it proves anything is foolish.

The problem here is like you said we don't know what the fuel is for. It could be propellant, or reactor fuel. I don't think it would be for the lifesupport systems since they where all flying in sealed spacesuits which seemed able to operate independently. What we do know is that it was serious enough to warrent Ben returning to base to address the issue of a fuel leak.

Someone is spending way too much time in Wiki. Still doesn’t answer why you want to prohibit contemporary capabilities from one side of debate but have no problem falling back to it when you are desperate to make a point.

I'll admit I had to look up the name of the scale on-line, but I read this stuff off-line (encyclopedia books, non-fiction books on space travel/exploration) and before I had regular access to the 'Net.

Contemporary capabilities vs what is seen in popular Sci-Fi is not always a good comparision. While real contemporary capabilities do not make the best comparision, there are real futuristic ones that do make a better comparision. Fusion and Anti-matter systems are considered real futuristic ones, not simply Sci-Fi. And Fusion/MAMA (based on calculations) offer performance that can not be matched by contemporary propulsion methods. Which is typically what we see in popluar Sci-Fi when it isn't something exotic (like FTL).

Are you actually reading the discussion prior to responding? You seem to have missed what I was responding to. In any case, here you are again referring to contemporary spaceflight capabilities after declaring them off-limits to sci-fi discussions.

Yes I read the prior discussion. I am not taking part in the PC is necessary for Interstellar travel as it is a fantasy substance. I was responding to your statement about Fusion not being necessary for real practical and efficient (read cheap) space travel. While you are correct that it is not needed for space travel, you are wrong in the context of modern spaceflight propulsion being practical, efficient, or cost effective (cheap).

[glitterboy2098]

and yet in the RPG, a few hundred gallons of SLMH fuels will power a Vf-1 for a few days, while a handful of P-cells (little bigger than a soda can) will run an alpha for weeks.


as for the purpose of the invasion, ease of production doesn't nessicarily mean it isn't constrained by resources. the master's supply was running low. not because it was hard ot make, but because they didn't have enough unmutated FoL. that's born out in the dialog pretty clearly.

You seem to be moving goal posts as your position is pointed out to be flawed. The ease, or lack thereof, of making something is really beside the point if you don’t have the supplies to make it either way.

nope, i'm saying exactly what i have been all along. that no one seems to try and understand my posts before trying to argue against them isn't moving goal poasts.

look at the materials. SLMH requires exposing hydrogen to intense pressure (the kind of pressure you find in the hearts of gas giants like jupiter), and doing it in such a way that it become semi-stable, holding the metallic liquid form even when the pressure is removed. it's a forced phase transition using methods that are energy intensive and dangerous. (if the pressure system breaks, it would be like dropping a huge bomb.) it's forcing matter to become a "soup" of disassociated protons and electrons. technically it's not even a 'liquid', it's really dense cold plasma. something the laws of the universe really don't like.

protoculture is refined. refining is a process of breaking down a material into it's component parts, and extracting the valuable stuff. so to make protoculture, you just have to break down flower of life spores into whatever substance is known as "protoculture. no phase transition change, no forcing a material to do something it wouldn't normally do.

The Masters spent 15 years traveling to have the chance to recover more Protoculture. This alone seems to show that there was no real alternatives to Protocultre.

or more likely, no alternative production facility. remember, the masters came ot earth for the protoculture matrix of Zor's fortress. it's only humanity that had decided their after the supply earth has socked away from the zentreadi wreckage.

the fact the masters make a big deal out of finding a production facility, and not a supply, indicates that their problem wasn't lack of raw material, but production bottlenecks leading to a shortage of refined product. imagine if all you had was crude oil, but no oil refinery, and the one guy who knew how to build a refinery had died, his refinery packed up on a ship and lost at sea....

There is nothing to suggest that the equipment needed to make Protoculture would be man-portable or non-bulky either. We never do see how Protoculture Cells, for example, are actually made. We can point to the large sized reflex power plants though, for example the one on Mars base.

So your claims of how superior, less bulky and man-portable Protoculture manufacture is was unfounded. Thanks for admitting that. I don’t think that was your intent though.

evidence that you didn't read my post closely. these are your words, not mine. i left off a [ bracket on a quote tag.

Since one cannot show, definitively or not, how easy, bulky or portable Protoculture was, nor the same of Fusion fuels, claiming any of these attributes as cause was a mistake on you part.

lets see....each can of protoculture in new gen is about a 1 litre sized can. according to the HG approved RPG 16 of these cans will power an Alpha for IIRC, 2 weeks.
compare this to the VF-1. we see dozens of litres worth of fuel pouring out ben's fighter, which had been flying for some time prior to the leak, and still retained sufficent fuel to return to base. (in fact, ben did comment that he did not consider it a major problem to continuing the mission) this indicates that the VF-1's supply of fuel is sizably larger in volume than that of 16 PCells. and the VF-1's fuel supply only lasts for a fraction of the time the alpha's fuel supply does.

i'd say that this is a fairly clear indicator that protoculture is a much less bulky fuel than SLMH for any given power output.

note my mention "not at a cost that makes it worthwhile". you could build a ship to pass beteen stars using fusion tech. heck, Project Daedalus designed such a craft. presumably you could power a robotech fold drive. you'd just use so much fuel to do so most of your ship would be fuel bunkerage.

anyone with fusion tech and the infrastructure to do so could build a massive spacecraft, a flying fueltank, to travel between the stars. it would be expensive, it would be slow, and they'd always be looking for a better method.

what protoculture did was allow interstellar travel to become common. not just some massive ships with low payloads and small crews, but massive fleets with big cargo capacities and huge crews. heck, entire flying cities, in the case of the master's motherships! thats starfaring. when travel between stars becomes common.

Contradiction alert!

Seriously, you can’t claim that one needs Protoculture to do something and when called on it just move the goal posts. Either Protoculture is the key to interstellar travel or it is not.

no, i said Protoculture is the key to easy interstellar travel. it's only a contradiction if you don't bother to read my post, and instead erect a strawman to attack.

fusion can take you to the stars. using a fusion drive, a multi-megaton spaceship (the size of a zentreadi battleship) could take a crew of a handful (a few dozen), on a one way trip, taking decades, to the nearest star.

not exactly all that spectacular, eh? compare this to a protoculture powered vessel of the same size. a fold drive can make the trip in less than a day (probably more like minutes), carry a crew of thousands, and can make this trip as often as it needs to.

could you power a fold generator with SLMH based fusion? probably. energy is energy. an electron doesn't care what generated it.

but as i've shown above, protoculture is a much more compact way of fueling a powerplant. SLMH is dozens of times bulkier. a SLMH powered fold drive would have much less endurance, meaning it could not go as far, not make as many trips. it would also get ot be very expensive to fuel, since you'd be running through SLMH in large quantities, and as i've described at the beginning of this post, SLMH is not easy to produce.

The VF-1s also perform aerodynamic style banked turns in space as well and the fuel leak on Dixon's plane comes from the nose - where it's very illogical to find a fuel tank.

Depends on what it was fuel for. Fuel for reactors way back in the back, yes would be odd. Fuel (reaction mass) for vernier jets/thrusters, may be not so odd.

actually, given the physical layout of the VF-1, i'd have been surprised if there wasn't fuel in the nose.
there are re places you find internal fuel tanks on fighters. the wings, and the fuselage. usually, fuselage tanks are behind the pilot.
but on a VF-1, the space behind the pilot is mechanisms for transformation, the arms of the mecha, and the legs of the mecha.
the wings certainly have fuel tanks, but the only place to put a fuselage tank is ahead of the pilot in the nose. since the VF-1 does not have a nose or wingroot mounted automatic cannon, there is plenty of space for a tank up there.
and it could well be vernier fuel too. if you have compact fusion drives, making a plasma thruster for vernier control would be simple. these would also use hydrogen fuel, and thus would most likely draw on the same fuel tanks as the primary engines.

[glitterboy2098]

Don’t claim someone didn’t read your “post closely” when you admit to posting errors with tags. You had to edit the post 2 days after the fact to clean it up.

the reason it too kme two days to correct the mistake is the fact i don't have internet at home, and it took me two days to find time to get back online. i didn't notice the mistake when i posted, and yet, when i looked today, the big broken quote tag stood out pretty obviously.

In any case, there is no need to explain why folks went from SLMH to Protoculture if the former wasn’t even used.

so you admit your stance on the matter is in complete contradiction to the "HG stamp of approval" bearing RPG's material?

i've been argueing from the RPG, where fusion powered mecha are canon. the show is ambigious on the matter, but there is no evidence to show that macross era mecha were not fusion powered.

but in the RPG, which HG has accepted as conforming to their current established canon, macross era mecha use fusion power, not protoculture.

Odd, for Protoculture being so “easy” there sure were a lot of wars, and lots of traveling, just to get more. The lack of ease, to make it, had destroyed an empire and sent its inhabitants off to Earth.

oil is easy to get and refine, and yet we still fight over it. Flower of life appears to be common, and it's only the limited number of production matrix's that made the master's travel so far and fight so hard against earth.

Again, the Masters spent 15 years traveling to have the chance to recover more Protoculture. This alone seems to show that there were no real alternatives to Protocultre. If there were alternatives to Protoculture, 15 years is plenty of time to put some of them into use and/or production.

no, the master's travelled 15+ years to find the last protoculture Matrix, the last production facility for protoculture.

We don’t see the Protoculture manufacturing process in Robotech. Claiming otherwise is silly.

read my post again. i wasn't pointing out production, i was pointing out that protoculture is a much more efficent fuel than SLMH. which ties into my much earlier posts about why SLMH was abandoned in favor of protoculture, and why just switching to SLMH wouldn't be a viable solution to solving an energy crisis like the UEEF is facing in shadow chronicles.

frankly, the only person who keeps mentioning production is you.

And while Ben’s VF did leak fuel, claiming it was fuel for the reactor is a pretty big if and hardly constitutes evidence of anything. In all likelihood, he was leaking reaction mass. And where you get the evidence for “VF-1's fuel supply only lasts for a fraction of the time the alpha's fuel supply does” is beyond me.

lets see, the RPG states the VF-1's run on fusion fueled by SLMH.
the damage has liquid flowing out at a fairly good rate. what liquid is likely to be carried by a VF-1 in such quantities? only fuel. life support wouldn't need so much, nor would verniers.

as for the "fraction of the time....the RPG states the VF-1 has 48 hours worth of fuel. an alpha has two weeks, or a grand total of 336 hours. it would seem pretty obvious that the VF-1's supply only lasts for a fraction of the time an alpha's fuel supply does. about 1/7th, actually.

my speculation on "idle mode" and such is just speculation. it makes sense, but it's not official.

No what you said was, “protoculture allows a race to become a Star-faring culture, able to travel outside their own solar system. you can't really do that with just fusion”. I read, clearly, what you wrote.

Like your other post, perhaps you should edit it so you can blame the reader on “misreading” your post.

now thats just an attack, since i didn't change a word i said in the other post, just fixed a missing bracket.

as for my statement, remember that "space faring" means using space travel commonly. star-faring is the same way. and not the qualifier " can't really do that". as in "you can do it, but it's hard".

you can travel between stars using fusion, as i have pointed out several times already. it's just not easy, nor would it be common. but with PC, we see travel between stars to be fast and common. too fast and common for fusion.

In Robotech, there must have been alternatives that were as “inefficient” as you propose here. The Masters did have to travel to Optera without Protoculture. Nothing indicates that Optera is closely position to the Masters homeworld.

sure, they travelled to optera without protoculture. and there is no proof that optera was or wasn't close by.

but even if it was dozens of light years away, they could make it. the question is how long were the tirolians willing ot spend travelling. without FTL of any sort, a trip of a handful of parsecs would takes years to centuries (depending on how close to the speed of light you can get up to). longer trips could take even longer. if you have good cyrogenic suspension systems, you could send a single crew on such a trip, though apon return they'd have ot deal with being totally out of place in their own socity, since their culture would have progressed and changed while they slept.
with some sort of FTL, perhaps even some early fold-drive, the trip would take less, but still be a major undertaking, not something done routinely.

You haven’t shown much of anything. Claimed, yes. Showed, not so much.

i've provided step by step trnscripts of the reasoning chains that back up my statements. that fits the definition of "shown".

[ShadowLogan]

In space, you only need to thrust if you want to increase your “speed”, decrease your “speed” or if you want to change “direction”. Unless you need or what to do one of those, there is no need to being burning thrust. Contemporary or sci-fi, it’s simple physics.

You’re ignoring it while trying to refute my common sense point that spacecraft don’t need to burn thrust continuously.

While correct, just because they do not need to does not mean they can not if they had the capacity to do so. Chemical Rockets do not, but more advanced designs can thrust for longer times and reap benifits in speed and travel time because of it.

You are also ignoring the show which shows them in use constantly, which puts their efficiency outside of current available technology (but still possible with the right technology that can be achieved in the future).

By the way, Jeffar’s point is everyone is right so if you agree with his point, why are you still here trying to show how your position is more right?

What Jeffar is saying is that there is no way to acurately judge the fuel efficiency of the Veritechs based on the show because the refueling of the vehicles was not important in all three generations, as NG used maintance as a plot point (which I have said more than once on this issue).

In any case, I guess you are admitting that the scene is evidence of no importance to the discussion at hand.

It is important to the discussion because it shows that the VF-1 has a fuel supply. One can not point to the show and say the same thing about the Logan, which can lead to some absurd statements about its fuel efficiency because its never addressed in the show.

I could say the Logan has unlimited/infinite fuel supply. Which seems absurd when you think about it for them to switch to a limited fuel supply for vehicles in NG.

Still doesn’t answer why you want to prohibit contemporary capabilities from one side of debate but have no problem falling back to it when you are desperate to make a point

I have nothing against using real world capabilities for a comparision, but they should be appropriate. Contemporary space propulsion just is not a good comparision for space vehicles in Sci-fi/RT. That does not mean there aren't appropriate propuslion systems we can look at in the real world, but the ones in use currently just are not a good comparision. Currently available systems just can not allow fighter operations in space.

Imagine if that straw man you are seriously thrashing was actually said by me. But continue on. It’s hard not to win against points not even being made.

GB wrote: "SLMH fusion allows a race to become a spacefaring culture, with viable in-solar system spacecraft and reasonably cheap orbital launch vehicles."
Cav replied: "One doesn’t even need fusion, SLMH or otherwise, to become a space faring culture."

I agree with you on the fusion part being necessary, but the thing you missed that GB is saying that fusion propulsion allows for:
-viable in solar system travel (measured in much shorter time spans than the years with current technology)
-cheap launch vehicles (current space travel is anything but cheap)

And he is correct on those statements (which I would describe as practical and efficient means of spacetravel). While we do not have fusion capability, we do know what the performance of those propulsion systems would look like.

[Jefffar]

I don't suppose I should remind everyone that these forums are place of friendly debate. I'm sure you all understand that.

[Oberoth]

"You are missing what he actually said that one needs fusion to be inter-system capable (which is not true) and Protoculture to be interstellar (obviously not true unless the Masters discovered Protoculture within their own system)".

I think you are correct. PC is obtained from The Invid Flower Of Life which didn't grow on the master's homeworld. The Masters must have had another means of intestellar transportation. Pehaps the technology that drives the 'Fold' engines only needed massive amounts of power. The Masters sent out science ships to other planets outside of their solar system(Though larger and more bulky compared to a protoculture powered version). Of course one of these ships carried Zor and Zor discovered Protoculture. Also their ability to make the Zentreadi was aready present. I always thought they were similar to Rifts Gene Splicers. So obviosly the Masters aready had a high technological level.

[glitterboy2098]

GB wrote: "SLMH fusion allows a race to become a spacefaring culture, with viable in-solar system spacecraft and reasonably cheap orbital launch vehicles."
Cav replied: "One doesn’t even need fusion, SLMH or otherwise, to become a space faring culture."

I agree with you on the fusion part being necessary, but the thing you missed that GB is saying that fusion propulsion allows for:
-viable in solar system travel (measured in much shorter time spans than the years with current technology)
-cheap launch vehicles (current space travel is anything but cheap)

You are missing what he actually said that one needs fusion to be inter-system capable (which is not true) and Protoculture to be interstellar (obviously not true unless the Mastes discovered Protoculture within their own system).

again, your ignoring the qualifiers in my statements.

fusion makes for easy intersystem travel, and protoculture makes easy interstellar travel possible. you can do intersystem without fusion, we've proved that in reality. but it's not easy or cheap. with fusion, you can do interstelalr, but it's not easy or cheap.

so you admit your stance on the matter is in complete contradiction to the "HG stamp of approval" bearing RPG's material?

The novels had HG's "stamp of approval", all the comics did as well, as did the early incarnation of the RPG. Do we bring in the different Art books as well?

But, in the future, if your entire defense is going to be "it has so been written", start and end with that. Don't go through an entire act and only to fall back on it. It wastes all of us our time.

my entire defense isn't "so it was written". i've detailed my views very clearly, showing the reasoning behind them. they draw on what is recognized HG approved material true, but you claim yours do to.

this is an RPG forum, and we are answering an RPG question. i choose to follow the RPG when answering an RPG question.

oh and BTW, HG has decanonized the novels, comics, and art books, and their more recent material has invalidated much of them.

So yes, just because Paladium, or HG for the matter, declares it doesn't mean I swallow it hook, line and sinker.

then why are you even posting in this topic?

[glitterboy2098]

i use the RPG's material, since this is an RPG related question.

if you regect the RPG's material, how can you expect to answer a question about a part of the RPG in a form useable by those who do follow the RPG?