Manga vs. Standard Size

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:06 am

PlainDre wrote:Hey All,

Anybody know if the supplemental books (i.e. Macross Saga Sourcebook, Master's Saga Sourcebook, etc.) will be normal sized (not Manga)?

Let me break out my Magic 8 Ball

Magic 8 Ball wrote:Outlook not so good.

There ya have it...

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:24 pm

Since there are no plans to print the Robotech books in a larger format I guess I'll have no plans to buy them.

At least I'll get the Starship book, for which I'm quite happy.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:06 pm

Cybermancer wrote:Since there are no plans to print the Robotech books in a larger format I guess I'll have no plans to buy them.

At least I'll get the Starship book, for which I'm quite happy.

Yup - no sense crying about it. I personally really like the smaller size. Would love to have both - actually my favorite would be to have PDF versions. I know the latter will not happen, but it is a hope.

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:27 pm

I've never been a huge fan of PDF's. I just prefer leafing through books is all. Although, there have been times where I've used PDF files of other games (only of books I owned) where books weren't practical or suitable. So it would be a case of wanting both (books and PDF's) but definitely prefering books. I couldn't and wouldn't play a game that was published entirely as PDF's, for example.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:34 pm

Cybermancer wrote:I've never been a huge fan of PDF's. I just prefer leafing through books is all. Although, there have been times where I've used PDF files of other games (only of books I owned) where books weren't practical or suitable. So it would be a case of wanting both (books and PDF's) but definitely prefering books. I couldn't and wouldn't play a game that was published entirely as PDF's, for example.

I can respect that. But since I bring my computer to every game, having the computer up is just as much fun as having the books. Having the PDF's searchable makes life easier, and thus quickly looking up rules. or other information as needed.

I wouldn't go back to gaming without my laptop and internet connection on site. It makes things so much easier.

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:11 pm

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from and it's definitely valid. If I ever get a computer hooked upto three monitors or more monitors, I may change the way I run my games.

Carrying all those books can be a real pain. A laptop would certainly be lighter than a typical load of books I have to bring to a D&D game or most Palladium games. And the monitor's are large enough that you're not squinting at the text to read it. Actually, a friend of mine got this LCD book reading device-I think *Sharp made it-that was just sized somewhere between a novel and a typical RPG book. If they make one with a screen that the standard RPG book size, I may well change the way I game.

Edit: On further reflection, I think it was Sony.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:28 pm

I have a little lenovo laptop T60. It doesn't have a large screen, doesn't have the greatest resolution (1024x768), but it does the job. I can scale the book to any reading level with magnification, even to real size. Can't beat it.

The Manga Size is nice, for portability. And it is great to have at work. I can stick it next to the novels in my office without having too much people going, ooh what's that. I have a dice roller on my computer at work, and two monitors.

When I am at the gaming table there are about 4 of us who bring laptops. Several folks have copies of PDF version of the books, and PDF Character Sheets. It works out well, especially since my hand writing is atrocious. For Robotech, I have been upgrading my Excel Character Sheet to - auto-tabulate. Thus allowing me to change levels, and getting all those nice little bonuses added in. The only thing it can't seem to do is SDC and Rolled bonuses. But that's fine - I don't mind that at all.

At some point, I'll need to learn some VB so I can truly use the pull down menu features.

drewkitty ~..~ · Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:33 pm

I hope they make normal sized books of Macross, Masters,and New Gen. the magna size is convinent for travel, and getting the book nownownownownownownow NOW DI!, but otherwise they are a down right pain.

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:29 pm

My opinion(S) on the manga format and the reasoning that is given behind going with that format by the powers that be, is leigion and VERY unflattering.
Thus I will not re-type them except to reitterate -THHHHPPPPPPPPPPTTTTTT!!!-

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:33 am

All I can suggest to other nay-sayers of the Manga sized format and those that want full sized is to do what I'm doing. Not buying anything published in manga format. I would buy the manga editions if I also got the full sized ones. But as long as Palladium won't put out a product I want in a format that I want, my money will be going to other things.

I used to be a collector of Palladium's products, whatever they published, I bought at my local hobby store. But when I was able to not buy the Macross book, with material I very much wanted, it became very easy not to buy Reign of Death which contains nothing of interest for me. I did buy Rifter 44 but after finding nothing in it that appealed to me, I'll be much more choosey when #45 comes out.

And that's the only option I have. Polls and complaints on the forums seem to be having 0 effect. Although I keep trying in the hopes that somebody will listen.

Lt. Holmes · Unread post by **Lt. Holmes** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:06 pm

Personally, I have no problems with the manga size. It's not my favourite, but it does the job adequetly well enough for my needs.

Colonel Wolfe · Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:48 pm

Thou they only promise Manga sized books, if you wait they will eventually print Full-sized books. TPTB @ HG have said the Manga sized books was KEvins Idea, and they loved it!
Unfortunatly the Fan-reaction has been completly mixxed.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:17 pm

I think if you want full sized editions, you may just need to start a Letter Writing Campaign.

We know that Kevin and Crew do look at the boards, but if they start receiving letters, true real letters that hey, if you do this, we will buy, they may do so.

I am of the opinion, that I rather have 3 formats: Manga, Standard, and PDF. Do you think I'll ever get the PDF? Doubt it. I more than likely will need to scan my own books in (which I can't bear to think about doing it properly as it would destroy a book!)

So - Follow through with Money. They do understand that if they are not producing a product your willing to buy, they need to put out other product. I am anxiously awaiting for the Masters Book and the New Generation Book. I could care less for the Spaceship Book unless they have excellent (and I mean excellent) deckplans within.

Colonel Wolfe · Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:50 pm

with the price of stamps.... its prolly not worth it to write real-letters.
basically I'm boycotting the Manga books, and will eventually buy the full-sized books when Palladium puts out a Full-sized Southren-Cross//Robotech Masters book.
if there isnt a Full Sized SC/RM book i wont be buying any of them

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:24 am

Considering that Mr. Siembieda wishes to influence the outcome of a movie deal with a letter writing campaign, it may not be such a waste after all. If enough people actually write letters, that is. I think Palladium is one of the companies that has always valued such things more than e-communication.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:57 pm

I agree with the last statement. If you want something badly enough - you need to ask for it.

I do think that Palladium would love to do a full sized book also, but the cost/investment into the Manga has to be proven. This could end up being quite some time.

So if you want regular sized books, it will take time. If you want them faster, purchase the Manga, and write a letter - Just my opinion.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:07 pm

Yeah, one of the things the folks suggesting not purchasing Manga until a full sized is announced are missing is that Palladium needs the profits from a manga to produce a full sized.

The other big thing is that if sales of the manga sized book dwindle, then Palladium may not produce a full sized book at all because they don't think it will sell well.

So not buying the manga sized does send a clear message to Palladium, but I don't think it sends the one you folks are trying to send.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:44 pm

Jefffar wrote:Yeah, one of the things the folks suggesting not purchasing Manga until a full sized is announced are missing is that Palladium needs the profits from a manga to produce a full sized.

The other big thing is that if sales of the manga sized book dwindle, then Palladium may not produce a full sized book at all because they don't think it will sell well.

So not buying the manga sized does send a clear message to Palladium, but I don't think it sends the one you folks are trying to send.

Now I do see the quandary that people are in. They want the new product, but they do not want the Manga. Why did Palladium go with an unproven solution for Robotech, when the Full sized is tried and true.

This is where the speculation comes in, and it does not matter. The fact is Palladium went with a Manga format. It probably would not take too long in the grand scheme of things to re-lay out the Manga Format to a Full Sized format. But it does limit what Palladium can produce for "New" Material. Now doing the layout for a full sized book could get Palladium to produce more physical books for the year, just not actual new material.

I was one of those folks who said: Hey I want Full Sized Robotech. I have to admit the Manga does hold some weight with me. It is a good product (save for the standard PB cover peel), and I have been really enjoying being able to carry a book with me everywhere I go. I don't have to feel bad or think people are looking at me weird for the Full sized book I am carrying.

Yeah, I am a gamer and I work in IT, of course I am a little weird. But dragging a big book even a nice hardcover with pretty pictures would make me stand out more. And who wants to draw additional attention (and possibly negative) like that. With the Manga, it's a little bigger than a novel, and folks understand people bringing novels to work.

But if PB decides to do a Full Sized Book - I hope they do a compilation of all three main sourcebooks - jack the price up to 60 bucks, and fix any corrections that need to be done. I would also go through all three books and adjust for balance and/or new technology to be added/removed for advancement purposes.

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:57 pm

Jefffar wrote:Yeah, one of the things the folks suggesting not purchasing Manga until a full sized is announced are missing is that Palladium needs the profits from a manga to produce a full sized.

The other big thing is that if sales of the manga sized book dwindle, then Palladium may not produce a full sized book at all because they don't think it will sell well.

So not buying the manga sized does send a clear message to Palladium, but I don't think it sends the one you folks are trying to send.

If Palladium needs profits, then they need to produce what I, as the consumer want. I do not need to buy their product hoping that they make enough profit off of that to produce what it is I really want. I will not purchase product I do not want. I will purchase product I do want, and only product I do want. It's really as basic and simple as that.

If the manga format fails (and I'm not saying it's going to), Palladium will have two choices. They can either drop the Robotech line (which is what I believe Jeffar was hinting at) or they can try publishing in the standard format. To say "We published it in an untested format and it failed therefore no one wants a Robotech game" would be folly. The logical alternative is to try publishing the titles in the regular format and see if that boosts sales.

If the company has invested so much into the Manga format that if it fails they will have no alternative than to drop the line because of money lost, then while it's regrettable, that's what happens when a company takes an unfounded risk, it either succeeds or it fails.

I do not beleive that Palladium is losing money on the Manga editions. There seems to be enough interest in this format that they are recooping their losses and indeed, producing addtional titles in this format. But they're not getting my money until they produce what I want. That's just how the consumer world works. Others who feel the same way should also boycott the Manga format because that is the only way, ultimately, to get a company to listen. Buying what they're making already doesn't send the message "We're not satisfied" like NOT buying what they're making.

I don't want Palladium or the Robotech line to fail. But I won't support it until it's a product that I am satisfied with. If that means letting a company or line fail, then that is the way it has to be.

Colonel Wolfe · Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:53 pm

Jefffar wrote:Yeah, one of the things the folks suggesting not purchasing Manga until a full sized is announced are missing is that Palladium needs the profits from a manga to produce a full sized.

The other big thing is that if sales of the manga sized book dwindle, then Palladium may not produce a full sized book at all because they don't think it will sell well.

So not buying the manga sized does send a clear message to Palladium, but I don't think it sends the one you folks are trying to send.

Well, If Palladium had Listened to the Poll over at Robotech.com that showed:

How do you feel about Palladium's announcement that they are working to produce new role-playing game books in manga size?

It doesn't matter, I'm just excited to hear that new Robotech role-playing games are finally coming out!
34.2%
I prefer manga-sized books, because they're more compact and convenient to store on my shelves.
6.7%
I prefer full-sized books, because I like to get my text and diagrams as large as possible.
22.6%
I'm not really into these role-playing games.
36.5%

Among people who cared, it was a 3 to 1 Favor toward Full-sized books. while only 7% of the Potential Customer based Prefered Manga-Sized.

Among the 63% of pool respondants who are into RPG's:

55% didnt Care what size it was.
35% wanted Full Sized.
and 10% wanted Manga-Sized.

Really if Palladium Needed Profits and wanted to Sell more book They would have Produced only Full-Sized books.
A Single Print-style is Cheaper then making 2 versions of the Same books.
and there's no way the Anti-WOTC corwds would let WOTC get away with printing a Mini-D&D4th ed. and then Printing a "Full-sized" Delux that contains information missing in the Mini-book. (IE the Manag version has Spellcasters. but you have to buy the Full Version to get the Spells they cast)

IF the Manga-sized Masters book is good. I'll consider buying it to help motivate the Cause of a Full-sized Masters book.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:03 pm

Well, it could be just on profits alone as their decision for doing the Manga Size.

I just went on a POD site and checked for book printing with their smallest size (5.25x8.25) vs Palladium's Full size (8.5x11). For 1000 copies of the same book printed from a fully sized PDF it ended up being a dollar difference in price on the book.

That's a hefty difference in price, making the Manga cheaper in the long run. Add in other additional costs and it could get even worse.

Yes - I would like PB to produce both, in fact with a PDF version also. I know the last is probably not going to be likely. Or at least with Robotech being done much later than other titles.

I guess my point is: Boycott with your money, and send a letter letting them know why. This way when they look at their numbers, they understand why the numbers are down and it is not just people leaving the market or flat out dislike Robotech.

and there's no way the Anti-WOTC corwds would let WOTC get away with printing a Mini-D&D4th ed. and then Printing a "Full-sized" Delux that contains information missing in the Mini-book. (IE the Manag version has Spellcasters. but you have to buy the Full Version to get the Spells they cast)

I think this is a little misleading. The Manga version is not missing information. At least not for me in order to play my games, except save for the Errata. But we all know you are talking the warships, the cruisers, horizonts, garfish, and ichazuki's. That was all fluff that wasn't needed in my game. Not to mention that it is being reprinted in later products.

In fact I find that printing any Cap Ships is not wanted and/or needed in a Manga Book. Shuttles, and Small Troop Transports I can see. But anything that I want a deckplan on, I don't want printed in a Manga Book. I'll wait for the big book o' ships.

Colonel Wolfe · Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:25 pm

Tiree wrote:Well, it could be just on profits alone as their decision for doing the Manga Size.

I just went on a POD site and checked for book printing with their smallest size (5.25x8.25) vs Palladium's Full size (8.5x11). For 1000 copies of the same book printed from a fully sized PDF it ended up being a dollar difference in price on the book.

That's a hefty difference in price, making the Manga cheaper in the long run. Add in other additional costs and it could get even worse.

Yes - I would like PB to produce both, in fact with a PDF version also. I know the last is probably not going to be likely. Or at least with Robotech being done much later than other titles.

I guess my point is: Boycott with your money, and send a letter letting them know why. This way when they look at their numbers, they understand why the numbers are down and it is not just people leaving the market or flat out dislike Robotech.

but the Amount of time and effort it takes to make 2 versions of the Same Product, should also be counted into the Cost veruses doing a single version. yes, Doing Full-sized vurses Manga is cheaper to do only Manga, but Palladium then Re-doing the Same Information in the Manga-book to Fullsized, and printing a Full-sized run is more Expinsive then doing a Full-Sized print run alone, Which the Robotech.com Poll Shows was prefered 3 to 1 by people with Opinions.

I think this is a little misleading. The Manga version is not missing information. At least not for me in order to play my games, except save for the Errata. But we all know you are talking the warships, the cruisers, horizonts, garfish, and ichazuki's. That was all fluff that wasn't needed in my game. Not to mention that it is being reprinted in later products.

In fact I find that printing any Cap Ships is not wanted and/or needed in a Manga Book. Shuttles, and Small Troop Transports I can see. But anything that I want a deckplan on, I don't want printed in a Manga Book. I'll wait for the big book o' ships.

my Statement was a bit misleading, you dont need Shaceships to Play Robotech, but the Manga-sized book contained information on things not included in the Shadow-Shronicles move, while excludeing things that were in the Movie.
Honestly, the Invid descriptions in Shadow-chronicels rpg leaves little information for the Actual Invid invsaion book. meaning that book will most likely contain excesive amount of reprinted information.
So it seams to get the Staship information for the Star-ships shown in Shadow Chronicles, I had to buy a delux version of the book, and when the Invid invasion book comes out, I'll most likely buy reprinted information i already have in shadow Chronicles... unless the invid stats are going to Change by then....

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:30 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:my Statement was a bit misleading, you don't need Shaceships to Play Robotech, but the Manga-sized book contained information on things not included in the Shadow-Chronicles move, while excluding things that were in the Movie.

Honestly, the Invid descriptions in Shadow-chronicles rpg leaves little information for the Actual Invid invasion book. meaning that book will most likely contain excessive amount of reprinted information.

So it seams to get the Starship information for the Starships shown in Shadow Chronicles, I had to buy a deluxe version of the book, and when the Invid invasion book comes out, I'll most likely buy reprinted information i already have in shadow Chronicles... unless the invid stats are going to Change by then....

Actually there is a lot of material that can still be done for the New Generation Sourcebook. The big things are about the Hives, RCC's, and Genesis Pits. Yes, that's for the Invid, and I am sure it will cover around 30 or so many pages. You then add in how Humanity has survived, how towns and villages react to Soldiers. Possibly even describe a few anti-human human groups or sympathizers and gangs. You add in the vehicles that did make it into the deluxe (like Rand's Motorcycle) and other vehicles that have not been shown (both of Lunk's Trucks). You can add in some additional pre-production art such as the Ground Attack Legioss, Bio-Emulators, Protoculture Flare's, not to mention how to charge Protoculture Cells and Clips (yeah some of the rules that were missed for a post-apocalyptic setting). You could probably even add in a class or two (mainly to reflect Rand and Rook).

Wow, that's probably close to 100+ pages plus the 30 on the Invid. Toss in Art, maybe 140 pages. Still 60 more to go... I don't approve of Organizational Charts and stuff, but you could toss some of those in. Maybe even some quick combat scenario's, and regional information.

Now - yes I probably would also go in and modify the Alpha's, and adjust them to the upgunning and power level of Valkyrie from the Macross Saga Book, but that's easy enough for most to do (just add the combat computer). And possibly even add in the TSC errata corrections addendum to the back of the book (I personally would not charge for this... but it needs to be added)

Now you are at the 192+ page mark.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:38 am

I didn't say Palladium would drop the Robotech line. I just said that if the manga sized doesn't sell well it would have a negative effect on the availability of cash to produce a full sized. Additionally, if the manga sized doesn't sell well it may indicate a lack of a market for the full sized to the folks who decide what is and isn't going to get published.

Or lets look at it this way

Why didn't TMNT 2nd Ed get published despite being available for pre-orders for 3 years? The answer, not enough re-orders to make it profitable to print the book.

Why haven't the other two books of the BTS 2nd Edition come out? The answer, because Palladium went through a period where they needed money and the BTS line, being slow sellers, wouldn't have produced enough to cover the cost of printing for a long time out.

If you want to get Kevin's attention on this, a boycott won't work because it sends the wrong message. If you want to send a message to Kevin, you actually have to send a message to Kevin in a format that makes him think its important. Take the time, write a letter, make him understand that this is important enough to you for you to put this extra effort in.

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:11 am

A boycott sends exactly the message I want to send. That I won't buy something I don't want. Yes, I'll also write a letter to let him know why I'm boycotting the product (it's not really a boycott, it's just not something I plan to waste my money on) but the letter has to be backed up with something stronger.

Mr. Seimbieada is running a business. The goal of any business is to make money. The way to cause change in how a business does this is to either spend your money on what they produce or not spend your money on what they produce.

Robotech, as an RPG line is clearly making enough money already for more books to be produced. The comparisons to TMNT 2nd Ed and Beyond the Supernatural fail because it is already apparent that the Robotech line is making enough money for additional books to be published. This is evidenced by the fact that there is already the original book (the Shadow Chronicles), the follow up full-sized, hard-cover book (Shadow Chronicles Deluxe), the manga version of Macross and we will very shortly have the manga version of the Masters.

Palladium is /already/ making enough money off the franchise to produce additional books. If they want more money, if they want my money, they have to make those books as full sized editions. Buying the manga sized books sends only one message. That they're doing fine with things the way they already are. And maybe they are. Or maybe they're doing okay but aren't grabbing as much of the market share as they could be, because they're not putting out product in the way people want it.

So again, I fully encourage those who don't like the manga sized version of the book to not purchase it. I also fully encourage you to write to Palladium books and tell them why you aren't buying the manga sized books. Because complaining while still buying the product you don't want changes nothing. Not letting your complaints known while not purchasing product does nothing. You have to convey your complaints in a way that will be noticed AND back them up with your spending power.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:19 am

Cybermancer wrote:So again, I fully encourage those who don't like the manga sized version of the book to not purchase it. I also fully encourage you to write to Palladium books and tell them why you aren't buying the manga sized books. Because complaining while still buying the product you don't want changes nothing. Not letting your complaints known while not purchasing product does nothing. You have to convey your complaints in a way that will be noticed AND back them up with your spending power.

I totally agree with this post!

But there is a caveat to doing this. If you want to play Robotech, and you want to play the new version of Robotech - justify it with yourself, that it may take time before you are going to get the product you want.

So - maybe beg, borrow, steal, or have a book as a gift until then - or just not play it. Sad part is, if you just not play the game - the game will lose demand, and thus may not be supported.

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:40 am

Tiree wrote:I totally agree with this post!

But there is a caveat to doing this. If you want to play Robotech, and you want to play the new version of Robotech - justify it with yourself, that it may take time before you are going to get the product you want.

So - maybe beg, borrow, steal, or have a book as a gift until then - or just not play it. Sad part is, if you just not play the game - the game will lose demand, and thus may not be supported.

Or just buy the Deluxe version of the Shadow Chronicles and play that.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:30 pm

Cybermancer wrote:Or just buy the Deluxe version of the Shadow Chronicles and play that.

What about those folks who want to play Macross or Masters Saga?

I think the key is - there needs to be a demand for a full sized book, and that demand needs to come from a letter writing campaign. Not just grumpy people on the forums of PB.com or RT.com

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:37 pm

Clearly more needs to be done. Which is why I'm advocating the writing of letters.

As for those who want to play Macross and Masters campaign, my heart goes out to them as I am included in both those groups. Patience will be key, as you've said.

Excuse me, I have a letter to write and a mailing address to look up.

Shawn Merrow · Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:40 pm

I have no problem with the manga books myself. For those who hate it the best bet is to write Kevin a letter saying why you don't like them and how you want regular sized books.

Palladium Books, Inc.
39074 Webb Court
Westland, MI 48185

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:15 pm

Thanks for the address.

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:55 pm

Just got caught up on the latest Murmurs.

Looks like there won't be any additional 8.5X11's for the Robotech line.

So this is where I get off the bus so far as the Robotech RPG goes.

We'll see if I hang around for any of their other series. I'm not really playing or running any Palladium games at the moment so I'll have to decide if I really want or need any of their additional books. I've been sorta waiting for Dyval but after that, I don't really seeing anything grabbing my attention.

I have to say though, this is really disappointing for me.

As for the proposed boycott, there doesn't seem to be much point of a mass boycott at this point. It seems that Mr. Siembieda (who effectively IS Palladium Books) is determined not to listen in any case. I won't be buying the Manga books but that's a personal choice. I know others who have made the same choice. I'm just beginning to doubt at this point that there will be enough fans committed to not buying the product to cause change at this point. I had held out hope that if enough fans spoke out, we would be heard.

We may have been heard but we weren't listened too.

Good bye.

(P.S. Before anyone misconstrues, or doesn't read the post through all the way, I'm not abandoning Palladium Books entirely. Their future product in other lines will determine that. This good-bye is for the other Robotech RPG fans. It was fun while it lasted but for me, it's over).

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:39 pm

Cybermancer wrote:Just got caught up on the latest Murmurs.

Looks like there won't be any additional 8.5X11's for the Robotech line.

So this is where I get off the bus so far as the Robotech RPG goes.

We'll see if I hang around for any of their other series. I'm not really playing or running any Palladium games at the moment so I'll have to decide if I really want or need any of their additional books. I've been sorta waiting for Dyval but after that, I don't really seeing anything grabbing my attention.

I have to say though, this is really disappointing for me.

As for the proposed boycott, there doesn't seem to be much point of a mass boycott at this point. It seems that Mr. Siembieda (who effectively IS Palladium Books) is determined not to listen in any case. I won't be buying the Manga books but that's a personal choice. I know others who have made the same choice. I'm just beginning to doubt at this point that there will be enough fans committed to not buying the product to cause change at this point. I had held out hope that if enough fans spoke out, we would be heard.

We may have been heard but we weren't listened too.

Good bye.

(P.S. Before anyone misconstrues, or doesn't read the post through all the way, I'm not abandoning Palladium Books entirely. Their future product in other lines will determine that. This good-bye is for the other Robotech RPG fans. It was fun while it lasted but for me, it's over).

I personally feel bad for the fans that feel strongly enough not to buy the manga size format.

I love the fact that there are new Robotech RPG books on the market so I will buy them regardless. I own 2 copies of the manga size books, 1 hardcover and 1 limited edition gold and I do find that when I go to grab one of them, I always grab the hard cover. The manga size books are good for my players. So although I wont boycott the managa size, I would pick up the standard size as well if Palladium did do a standard size printing for the books.

Thanks,
MikeM

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:40 am

To be honest, I have my origial (albeit VERY buggy and way-off-base technically) RT books (in the proper 8.5x11 format), and was stupid enough to buy the Shadow Barnacle in the manga size (convient my (censored) ). Now, while I have the upgraded PC write up guidelines and game specific skills (man they REALY are trying to do away with the 'megaversal' system aren't they; jellousy / paranoia much?), the art work is miniscule, the game setting info / fluff text is non existant and well, it's missing things, like the primary vessels we see in the movie.
Oh, but you can buy the deluxe (@ $34 can. + taxes) edition to get at least the eratta, which should actualy have been provided for free as CRF material since we were suckered by promises that said material would be in the micro-book edition.
Well then...
Sorta like how the first gen PSP by Sony had technical problems with both the joy-pad & LCD screen, the PR people at SEC went; "Well, you'll just have to live with it, or buy the next production run..."

NOT a good way to keep your market share :badbad:

So I'll just do personal notes to "upgrade" my game stats using the original books and let the manga editions collect dust at my hobby store; and yes...ALL the hobby stores in my city have them collecting dust on the shelves...as any die hard gamer here laughs at the lay-out and type setting of those books.

I guess PBooks looses on this one..lets hope they don't do a stupid and do manga format with their other surviving settings.
Pity really, I was sooo looking forward to a reneisance...

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:03 am

I am with Mike on this one:

It is sad that there is such outrage over a book. Enough so that people who yelled: Bring back Robotech. Are now yelling: I won't buy Manga.

C'mon - Palladium brought back Robotech. Okay, it wasn't in the 'Format' you would prefer. Fine! But you have newer material, and it is updated to be ported over to Rifts

Not only that, they did what folks wanted: MOS system, Scaled up Weapons and Armor (while lowering or keeping the cyclone roughly at its MDC ratio), corrected errors from the old book, added newer Mecha and Material that wasn't printed (Transformable Invid Fighter, Shadow Alpha Drone, Bioroid Interceptor, etc...)

So they didn't put in a Ship?!?! Uhm, seriously? Ships are plot devices. In either case, the only way I want a ship, is to have a deckplan. To stick one into a Manga Book would be rediculous. And in the Deluxe version it wasn't there. So in a way I don't feel jipped.

And for those folks who feel jipped about the "New Material" don't be. It is going to be reprinted (as they have mentioned from the beginning in future sourcebooks (New Gen probably)

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:57 am

I used to run and play Robotech a lot back in the day and we never played out ship to ship combat. It was just something that happened in the background, or the characters were based on a ship. We never really needed detailed specs for it. A floor plan would be cool, but not necessary. Now granted, I can understand people wanting it, but I dont believe its needed for the book to be considered complete.
Your opinion may vary.

MikeM

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:16 pm

gelgoog wrote:Speaking of art. The new cartoon looking art just don't look good in B and W, which they could have done it in full color for the hard back edition

I agree with this 100% The pics of the characters at the end in the manga size book look very pixelated? Is that a word?

MikeM

tobefrnk · Unread post by **tobefrnk** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:35 pm

I'm super loving the manga size right now since I've discovered that it fits perfectly in my cargo pockets. I get to carry my new copy of Masters with me everywhere.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:55 pm

Yeah, I want to mess with my players by arriving at a session empty handed and acting like I don't realize it's game night. Then I'll produce gamebook, dice, writing materials and calculator from my pockets of my cargo pants.

But first I need new cargo pants *shakes fist at expanding waistline*

tobefrnk · Unread post by **tobefrnk** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:08 pm

Jefffar wrote:*shakes fist at expanding waistline*

I've been throwing carrot sticks at my waistline.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:18 pm

As long as the extra material in the deluxe version appears in a Rifter or another Robotech sourcebook I don't mind the manga format. That being said there is no way in hell I'm dishing out money for the deluxe edition. I want to support PB in these tough economic times. Not enough to want to buy the same book twice though. Or be forced to buy the more expensive book to get the new material.

Colonel Wolfe · Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:34 am

Sureshot wrote:As long as the extra material in the deluxe version appears in a Rifter or another Robotech sourcebook I don't mind the manga format. That being said there is no way in hell I'm dishing out money for the deluxe edition. I want to support PB in these tough economic times. Not enough to want to buy the same book twice though. Or be forced to buy the more expensive book to get the new material.

This is a perfect example. its been said all the information that was extra in the SC-hardback is supposed to appear in a future product, but the Masters saga book is the last Release date we had, and there isnt a release date for the New-gen book. (Thou the new gen book is already written being 90% of the Shadow Chroicles book was New Gen Equipment/Enemies)

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:57 am

What is ironic is that the manga version is hurting sales of the deluxe version at my FLGS. the guy in charge of ordering the gaming ordered 5 copies of each. He has had to replenish the manga version twice. He just recently sold the last deluxe edition from his initial order. With the cost of the manga edition being 13.50$ and the deluxe 31$ none of those who buy PB products seem to be in any rush to get the deluxe edition. Apparently word of mouth in the Montreal PB fanbase is that the deluxe edition is not worth it so they pick the cheaper alternative.

While it does generate sales either way for PB it means less orders of the deluxe edition from my flgs. If someone is interested in ordering the deluxe edition he will order it. Otherwise he can't afford to spend money to buy merchandise that won't move espcially if their is a cheaper alternative and the deluxe version does not offer any real incentive to buy it. I say keep the manga edition for the Robotech line as imo it sort of fits the anime feel even if I'm not a huge fan of the size. Leave any other rpgs in the works the standard size. If they plan to do the same thing with another new rpg they should at least add more to the deluxe edition. Not just a pimped up version of the manga edition.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:53 am

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Sureshot wrote:As long as the extra material in the deluxe version appears in a Rifter or another Robotech sourcebook I don't mind the manga format. That being said there is no way in hell I'm dishing out money for the deluxe edition. I want to support PB in these tough economic times. Not enough to want to buy the same book twice though. Or be forced to buy the more expensive book to get the new material.

This is a perfect example. its been said all the information that was extra in the SC-hardback is supposed to appear in a future product, but the Masters saga book is the last Release date we had, and there isnt a release date for the New-gen book. (Thou the new gen book is already written being 90% of the Shadow Chroicles book was New Gen Equipment/Enemies)

Yet, even though the enemies are already in Shadow Chronicles, there is a ton more information that can be placed into the New Gen book. I mean, AAT-30, AAT-40, Lunk's gun in Paper Hero. How PC Cells work, Ground Attack Legioss, transformable Condor*

I like the larger format too. I use the Manga sized one every day. Easier to keep, store, and have on my desk at work. I have used it to make characters, and have had it open for long period of times to design character sheets and character generator. The spine is in good condition, and it works rather well for me. Only complaint is that the cover is peeling.

But like the Masters Sourcebook - I see the New Generation Sourcebook chock full of 'stuff'

*Yes, I know the Condor will probably never transform - or at least we will never have art for it.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:50 pm

I wonder if we will see a book full of characters from all the series along with their stats?

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:13 am

I'd say that each of the sourcebooks have given room for a follow up sourcebook for their era with other details and goodies for us, so I think this may be an eventuality.

Colonel Wolfe · Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:52 am

http://www.robotech.com/community/poll/index.php

Another RPG-Size Poll was posted on Robotech.com
anyone who has an Issue with the Size of the RPG books should go vote, so we can Influence HG to get the Books published in a proper format.

Spoiler:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:17 am

Jefffar wrote:I'd say that each of the sourcebooks have given room for a follow up sourcebook for their era with other details and goodies for us, so I think this may be an eventuality.

I hope so because there is alot of missing stuff. I'm not trying to gripe, but as it stands, the game feels incomplete to a degree.

AuroraKet · Unread post by **AuroraKet** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:23 am

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I'd say that each of the sourcebooks have given room for a follow up sourcebook for their era with other details and goodies for us, so I think this may be an eventuality.

I hope so because there is alot of missing stuff. I'm not trying to gripe, but as it stands, the game feels incomplete to a degree.

I'll second that and then some. It really surprised me that NPCs were ALL left on the cutting room floor for the Masters book. If they intend to continue that for New Generation, they should release it as part of another book, or separately as a cheap small book, so that people actually get the material finally.

Colonel Wolfe · Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:36 am

AuroraKet wrote:
I'll second that and then some. It really surprised me that NPCs were ALL left on the cutting room floor for the Masters book. If they intend to continue that for New Generation, they should release it as part of another book, or separately as a cheap small book, so that people actually get the material finally.

being the Base book for the game has 90% of the New Gen Enemies and mecha in it, thye should have p[lenty of room for the NPC's of that era... in a 100 page manage book....