UEEF Marine Corps Sourcebook

[Aramanthus]

They can always include new equipment with the book.

[Chris0013]

Here's what I'm hoping (against hope) to see:

When the Pioneer Expedition launched, its ground forces were composed primarily of second-generation Destroids and Battlepods (as depicted in Robotech Art 3 and the original Sentinels RPG), Condors and prototype Cyclones (also depicted in Robotech Art 3), and possibly UEEF Power Armor (strictly conjectural, rare, and eventually rendered obsolete by the advent of Cyclones), augmented by a token ASC force of Spartas, Myrmidons, and Logans commanded by Colonel Wolfe.

During the Sentinels campaign, the UEEF ground forces underwent an overhaul, ushering in a series of third-generation battloids (based on Mospeada concept art) that replaced the second-generation destroids, adding the Bioroid Interceptor to replace the second-generation Battle Pods, and introducing the Cyclones and Silverbacks - and, hopefully, a UEEF counterpart to the Spartas (much like Silverbacks and Myrmidons can be thought of as counterparts to each other). With the retirement of the second-generation designs and the return of the Wolfe Pack and the remaining ASC mecha to Earth, these third-generation designs became the mainstay of the UEEF ground forces up through the final attack on Reflex Point.

In short, depict the mecha of the UEEF Marines as something that changed (sometimes drastically) over the 22+ year history of the UEEF.

This is how I have always viewed it....and I hope they five us a height correction on the Condor...it does not make sense to me that a 2nd (or 3rd) gen destroid would be bigger than the 1st gen destroids....also I would like it to a little faster and maneuverable with better flight capabilities...kind of like the male power armor and how Khyron used them to get the sizing chamber.

[Tiree]

I am hoping - if I remove the term 'Marine' the book is still useful.

I am not a big fan of the idea that RT has Marine's other than glorified security guards on board starships.

No disrespect to the soldiers out there who have served or are serving in the Marines. I just find that it is a cliche within the sci-fi genre. I am all for changing the stereotype and modify the genre accordingly.

But I do hope that somehow Jason can add in something about the "Army Flyboys" that is mentioned in the series. Even if it is to put a small footnote that the UEEF has a whole division of other units that fly variable aircraft.

[Jefffar]

An aside on the Army Flyboys crack. A large portion of the UEEF forces were dropped planetside during the course of the conflict. The evidence points that this group suffered very heavy (perhaps even total) casualties.

Perhaps these were the Army unites that were being referred to and their lack of appearance in the TSC RPG is attributable to the fact that once the battle was over there were virtually none of these troops left.

[Chris0013]

I am hoping - if I remove the term 'Marine' the book is still useful.

I am not a big fan of the idea that RT has Marine's other than glorified security guards on board starships.

No disrespect to the soldiers out there who have served or are serving in the Marines. I just find that it is a cliche within the sci-fi genre. I am all for changing the stereotype and modify the genre accordingly.

But I do hope that somehow Jason can add in something about the "Army Flyboys" that is mentioned in the series. Even if it is to put a small footnote that the UEEF has a whole division of other units that fly variable aircraft.

First of all...soldiers serve in the army....Marines serve in the Marine Corp.

Second, maybe the army flyboys that Scott refers to are former ASC units that were resupplied with Marine and Spacy alphas for the attack

[dataweaver]

In short, depict the mecha of the UEEF Marines as something that changed (sometimes drastically) over the 22+ year history of the UEEF.

This is how I have always viewed it....and I hope they five us a height correction on the Condor...it does not make sense to me that a 2nd (or 3rd) gen destroid would be bigger than the 1st gen destroids....also I would like it to a little faster and maneuverable with better flight capabilities...kind of like the male power armor and how Khyron used them to get the sizing chamber.

Agreed. The Mospeada mecha concept sheet shows the Condor being roughly the same height as the Alpha; and while I know that HG isn't beholden to this bit of trivia, I'd hope that they'd not disregard it without reason.

I am hoping - if I remove the term 'Marine' the book is still useful.

I am not a big fan of the idea that RT has Marines other than glorified security guards on board starships.

No disrespect to the soldiers out there who have served or are serving in the Marines. I just find that it is a cliche within the sci-fi genre. I am all for changing the stereotype and modify the genre accordingly.

But I do hope that somehow Jason can add in something about the "Army Flyboys" that is mentioned in the series. Even if it is to put a small footnote that the UEEF has a whole division of other units that fly variable aircraft.

I'm not particularly hung up on the names; but as long as the UEEF has ground forces (be they infantry, PA troopers, conventional vehicles, destroids, cyclones-and-Silverbacks, veritech tanks, etc.) that are routinely transported from place to place by spacecraft and able to hit the ground fighting, using the term "Marine" to describe them will be apropos. Well, they also have to be able to deal with spacecraft boarding actions; but given the precedent of the Daedalus Maneuver, I suspect that the UEEF will indeed be prepared to do so.

OTOH, this is likely to be true only for as long as Robotech Masters and full-sized Zentreadi are numbered among their foes - which means that the first wave of UEEF ground forces (the ones who were trained on Earth before the Pioneer Expedition was launched) would definitely be trained for this sort of thing. Whether or not the second wave would also be trained for boarding actions to a significant degree is an open question.

An aside on the Army Flyboys crack. A large portion of the UEEF forces were dropped planetside during the course of the conflict. The evidence points that this group suffered very heavy (perhaps even total) casualties.

Perhaps these were the Army unites that were being referred to and their lack of appearance in the TSC RPG is attributable to the fact that once the battle was over there were virtually none of these troops left.

"The conflict" being the campaign to liberate Earth, right? The Robotech Invasion comic indicates that Lancer's wave was composed of Conbats and Condors, and that the latter fared considerably better than the former did. I wouldn't be surprised if this arrangement was typical of the UEEF Marines / "Army Flyboys" circa 2038. That is, perhaps Lancer was a member of the UEEF Marines - or at least of their "Army Flyboys" air support branch.

First of all...soldiers serve in the army....Marines serve in the Marine Corp.

That's definitely true of the USMC. Is it also true of the UEEF Marines?

Second, maybe the army flyboys that Scott refers to are former ASC units that were resupplied with Marine and Spacy alphas for the attack

That's also a possibility. FWIW, one nice thing that the RPG allows for that the show wasn't able to provide is ASC mecha being used by the resistance forces; maybe the "Army flyboys" is a reference to surviving ASC aerospace forces (primarily TASC and TAF)?

I'm not recalling the comment in question; what was it, when was it made, and to whom? Did it explicitly reference living Alpha pilots, or was it a vague reference that might have referred to almost anything?

[jedi078]

I am not a big fan of the idea that RT has Marine's other than glorified security guards on board starships. No disrespect to the soldiers out there who have served or are serving in the Marines.

If you think Marines are just glorified security guards your wrong. Where do you even get that idea anyhow? Modern day Marine forces typically do more then just ‘guard the ship’.

Furthermore Marines don't identify themselves as soldiers, they identify themselves as Marines.

I just find that it is a cliche within the sci-fi genre. I am all for changing the stereotype and modify the genre accordingly.

It’s not cliché it is all about the duties carried out by the ground combat element of a nation’s navy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_(military) Just look at the LONG list of countires (53 total) who have a specilaized naval ground combat element that is separate from their regular army.

These are the same duties carried out by ‘Marines’ in sci-fi settings. Therefore the sci-fi writers are simply using modern day terminology (and for once common sense) when naming the combat troops on ‘black water’ navies.

Heck even the ASC Cosmic unit can be considered ‘Marines’ because the duties they carry out are the same outlined as in the definition of a Marine.

[Tiree]

I am not a big fan of the idea that RT has Marine's other than glorified security guards on board starships. No disrespect to the soldiers out there who have served or are serving in the Marines.

If you think Marines are just glorified security guards your wrong. Where do you even get that idea anyhow? Modern day Marine forces typically do more then just ‘guard the ship’.

You misread my statement: I do not think that 'Current' Marines are glorified security guards. It is my view of the RT universe that I am not a fan of the term 'Marines' being utilized everywhere unless they are glorified security guards. This is due to the cliche of the Sci-Fi genre and Marines.

If you have further questions/clarifications: please PM me. I do not wish to have this topic locked because of a misinterpreted view.

[jedi078]

It is my view of the RT universe that I am not a fan of the term 'Marines' being utilized everywhere unless they are glorified security guards.

So you think that in the RT universe Marines should just be glorified security guards?

This is due to the cliché of the Sci-Fi genre and Marines.

What, that Marines are see as just glorified security guards in the Sci-Fi genre?

Here are some well known examples of Marines in the Sci-fi genre who are not glorified security guards. Yes in some cases they are used as security troops but they are also seen being used as assault troops.

In Aliens we see Marines going planet side to secure an installation. The actors portraying the Space Marines had to read Starship Troopers.

In Space Above and Beyond the Marines do more then just guard the ships; they fly combat craft and conduct landings on enemy held planets.

In Stargate SG-1 we see Marines being used as heavy assault troops. In Stargate Atlantis Marines (as well as troops from other nations militaries) are used as security troops but are also sent out as heavy assault troops.

In the Halo series of video games UNSC Marines are seen defending UNSC warships/installations, as well as assaulting enemy positions.

In Battlestar Galactica (the re-imagined series) we see Marines securing Colonial Warships as well as boarding other ships when the need arises. They are also seen operating in the few ground operations that take place. One could argue that the Colonial Marines were the only infantry combat element available and hence that is why they were used. But nevertheless they are not simply used as security guards.

[dataweaver]

As I understand it, the original UEG military structure had an Army and a Marine Corps in addition to its Spacy, and the former two used Destroids (Macross Saga, p.25). Paradox: Masters Saga (p.20) states that Colonel Leonard helped create the UEDF's Destroid Corps. It's possible that this is a reference to a division of the Army, much like the US Air Force was originally the Army's Air Corps. Regardless, this all became a moot point with the Rain of Death. The Zentreadi decimated most of the UEDF, leaving two centers of power that developed over the next four years: Captain Gloval of the SDF-1, and Colonel Leonard in South America. In 2015 and 2017, these two factions were formalized as the UEEF and the ASC, respectively. Each faction cannibalized the remains of the UEDF until almost nothing was left of it. (Given that the ASC's only explicitly wet-navy component appears to be the SEAL-like TC Navy Division, I suppose that a case could be made that the original UEG Navy managed to survive the reorganization intact; but it's more likely that its duties were taken over by the TC and that the relevant MOS and skills have been overlooked.)

As a result, the structure of the UEG armed forces as of 2022 was essentially split into two branches, which could broadly be described as the planetary defense branch (the ASC) and the expeditionary branch (the UEEF) - in effect, an Army and a Spacy. Mind you, they had overlapping elements: the ASC had its aerospace forces (the TAF, TASC, and TSC), while the UEEF had its infantry and surface forces: the UEEF Marine Corps (Shadow Chronicles, p.94; Deluxe, p.64).

Mind you, a literal reading of Shadow Chronicles would indicate that all Marines are Military Specialists (p.80; Deluxe, p.56). I'm hoping that the UEEF Marine Corps Sourcebook will revise this somewhat in order to include Battloid Aces and Infantry under this heading (as opposed to them always being directly a part of the Navy proper); but I don't see them separating the Marines from the Military Specialists, especially considering that two of the MilSpec MOS's are the Marine and the Marine Commando. It's also possible that the ground forces commanded first by Colonel Reinhardt and then by General Reinhardt include more than one Corps, much like the ASC's aerospace forces did: for example, there might be a Marine Corps, a Destroid Corps, and an Infantry Corps. If this is the case, I hope that the Marine Corps Sourcebook is misnamed, and covers all of the ground forces rather than just the Marine Corps.

Regardless, Marines are not glorified security guards; that position is filled by the Security/Military Police MOS of the Enlisted Crewman OCC, which is either a part of the Navy side of the UEEF or a part of the Marines side - it most certainly is not the whole of the latter side. In short, the debate about whether or not they should be glorified security guards is moot.

[jedi078]

I get the feeling that the UEEF Marine Corps is the UEEF’s ground combat element. The UEEF Marine source book seems to acknowledge this.

[taalismn]

Invariably, in science fiction, the Marines ARE the all-purpose personal weapon of choice, and in sci-fi, 'Marine' invariably means 'elite' or 'prepare to have your throat ripped out, your planet burnt down, and your life expectancy shrink considerably)...
Warhammer 40K, the Space Marines are the ultimate elites, coupled with a fanatical warrior religion, and utter total faith in themselves approaching mania....
In David Brin's 'Uplift' Universe, the Terragens Marines are the small, unrepentantly Earth-first, knife-in-the-guts Earthclan has against the overwhelming weight of the hostile universe, with billions of years of archived military history, superior technology, and entire sentient species BRED to fight...
Even Star Trek: Enterprise had the MACOs, who were essentially Marines(nobody yet having invented the Red Shirt), who got to carry rifles(while everybody else carried pistols) and go planetside to blow stuff up in raiding operations...
The list goes on...

Show me any sci-fi where we have both a Marine corps mentioned and a regular Army in the same story, where the Marines AIN'T the all-around star performers...

[Beatmeclever]

If you pay close attention to SG1 you'll notice that the writers held to the current US structure that has the Air Force in command of space operations. Also, you will see that the majority of SG-teams are made up of Air Force personnel not Marines. IIRC, it isn't until the fourth season that we see the formation of the first Marine Corps SG-team.

The Marines of a Sci-Fi series are always used as the "Amphibious" warfare forces and intership combat forces. In Robotech, Scott is referred to as a soldier by everyone (so, by most of the people here, he is NOT a Marine). The same would be true of Lancer and Lunk as well. I do not believe that the introduction of Marines into Robotech was necessary. The structure was just fine with an Army, a (black water Navy) Spacy, and a Navy.

A military MUST adapt to the needs of the conflict at hand. This means that if a branch of service has no purpose in the conflict, it has no reason to exist. This means that either the UEEF is all Marine/Navy or it is Navy and Army. The real determining factor would be the command and control structure and the way the members define themselves (are they soldiers or marines?). Scott Bernard shows us that the assault forces define themselves as SOLDIERS.

However, Mr. Yune has a hard-on for the Marines and so he has retconned this too and we will get new information and hopefully some new mecha and equipment out of the book. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that you can use the information given however you want to use it. If you want Marines, use Marines. Personally, I have a Spacy that is derived from an Air Force structure - a Spacy that ferries an Army to the many strategic and tactical locations in the galaxy. I also have a Marine Corps that operates solely as an elite Space Combat force.

The first rule of Palladium Books was always that you should use what you liked to create the gaming world in which you wanted to play. So why should I let the books tell me how my universe is structured? I don't and I don't let the Marines dominate the military structure (just like they don't dominate the current US structure).

[dataweaver]

The first rule of Palladium Books was always that you should use what you liked to create the gaming world in which you wanted to play. So why should I let the books tell me how my universe is structured? I don't and I don't let the Marines dominate the military structure (just like they don't dominate the current US structure).

Enjoy.

This isn't about how you want to handle it in your games. As you say, you're free to use what you like and ignore the rest. This also isn't really about what PB ought to do, although some commentary along those lines has occurred - but always in context. And that context, what this is really about is speculation about what PB is likely to do. Agree with it or not, I think that it's pretty much a given that PB is going to continue to use "UEEF Marines" as a more-or-less synonym for "UEEF ground forces".

That said, I happen to agree with most of your position (though not with the attitude with which you're presenting it): ideally, I would prefer it if the UEEF ground forces were referred to as "the UEEF Army Corps", or something to that effect. If not that, my second choice would be to simply use "Ground Forces" as an umbrella term, with divisions under it such as "Marine Corps", "Armor Corps", "Destroid Corps", etc. Lumping it all together under the term "Marine" does rub me the wrong way.

But I can live with it.

As an aside: AFAICT, no one has ever claimed that any of Scott, Lance, or Lunk was a Marine. Scott and Lance were pilots first and foremost; they only resorted to their Cyclones and ground force combat after they were shot down and forced to make do. If there's a discrepency here, it's that they ought to be referring to themselves as airmen, flyboys, pilots, or the like rather than soldiers. Unless it's kosher for Navy or Spacy aviators to call themselves "soldiers"? In which case, you've still said nothing about what the UEEF ground forces call themselves. And Lunk was a technician, not a fighting man; by all rights, he was as likely to be a Petty Officer working as part of a spacecraft's flight crew as he was to be a Sergeant in a motor pool. You just might have a point if you can show that Lunk held an army-style rank (as opposed to navy-style) and called himself a soldier - but even then, I wouldn't be sold: a case could be made that the UEEF consolidated former Army and Marine personnel together under the aegis of their "marine corps" when they set up shop in 2015, under the reasoning that if it's a ground unit that operates off of a (black or blue) naval vessel, it should be called a marine. Is the reasoning flawed? Certainly; but I've seen military brass make bigger blunders. And it has precedence: consider the fact that the Canadian Armed Forces unified all of their militaries into one force, and require everyone - Navy included - to use an army-like rank structure. Logistically, it's great; but their former navy personnel generally aren't to thrilled with the change.

I figure that in such a circumstance, the guys who used to be UEDF Marines would lay claim to the term "Marine" to describe themselves, and would discourage the "false marines" from using it, insisting that they call themselves "soldiers". For the most part, the soldiers - not having been steeped in the traditions of the marine corps, would shrug their shoulders and wonder why the name's such a big deal to those arrogant so-called "true marines". Under such conditions, I could easily see Lunk as a member of the UEEF Marine Corps and calling himself a soldier.

The key is that we're dealing with a fictional military force of the future. Comparisons to modern military structures won't necessarily be clean matches, even if there are a lot of similarities otherwise.

[Chris0013]

it actually makes sense to me that the UEEF would be set up more like a navy/Marine organization...like the modern day navy and Marine set up...the Navy (spacy) is in charge of the ships, and has its own fighter squadrons and the Marine are the amphibious (spacephibious???) landing force. with heavy mecha (condors), infantry / recon units (cyclone - silverback) and their own air support squadrons. The Marine commander is responsible for his men but answerable to the spacy taskforce commander in charge of the operation.

[jedi078]

it actually makes sense to me that the UEEF would be set up more like a navy/Marine organization...like the modern day navy and Marine set up...the Navy (spacy) is in charge of the ships, and has its own fighter squadrons and the Marine are the amphibious (spacephibious???) landing force. with heavy mecha (condors), infantry / recon units (cyclone - silverback) and their own air support squadrons. The Marine commander is responsible for his men but answerable to the spacy taskforce commander in charge of the operation.

Yep that's my line of reasoning too.

[rem1093]

The marines make the most sense. As a hole there MAGTF setup would work best in robotech. Heck they send there pilots to infantry school before pilot school, and that would fit a VT pilot. And there ground forces do it all.

[Jefffar]

What, that Marines are see as just glorified security guards in the Sci-Fi genre?

Here are some well known examples of Marines in the Sci-fi genre who are not glorified security guards. Yes in some cases they are used as security troops but they are also seen being used as assault troops.

Actually that's sort of his point right there. He's tired of so many sci-fi depictions having the main combat forces of the space arm being Marines. He wants a change.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Well if you want to include the UEG in this supplement then I agree to that one. As far as the continued training of the Pioneer Mission at this time. It was obvious by the response form the ASC when Major Carpentor crew arrived that they had lost communications with the Pioneer mission years ago. So why would they continue training troops for the Pioneer Mission?

Please explain how you came up with the idea that the UEG had lost contact with The Pioneer Mission years (plural) before when Carpenter arrived less than a year after The Masters attacked. Carpenter stated that they KNEW their was an enemy in orbit around Earth. Why else would he have been relaying a message that General Reinhardt couldn't send any more reinforcements at that time. Furthermore, its stated at the beginning of Mind Games that the hyperspace reinforcements from Deep Space were responding to Space Station Liberty's mayday from the original attack.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The simple fact is that a number of personnel in The New Generation that were part of the REF identify themselves as being in The Army. Does the REF AeroSpace Force have a Marine component? The Cosmic Units fit the bill and there is no reason to keep reinventing the wheel. Other than using different armour and/or small arms in certain theatres (Wolfe's CBA-2 vs. CU CBA-2), why the hell would there be any difference? Obviously, I must point, AGAIN, that The Narrator calls the ASC the Army of the United Earth Forces. Then there is the fact that The Sentinels scripts clearly state the ASC is the ground forces of the REF.

ASC = Service Branch
REF = Combatant Command

The two are not equal in any sense. This twisty, brain pretzel logic has got to stop. The simplest answers are always the best.

[dataweaver]

Obviously, I must point, AGAIN, that The Narrator calls the ASC the Army of the United Earth Forces.

Haven't I already said that? I don't think that anyone disputes that the ASC is the UEG's Army. What's being debated here is the nature of the UEEF.

Then there is the fact that The Sentinels scripts clearly state the ASC is the ground forces of the REF.

I don't have access to the Sentinels scripts. Putting aside questions about the validity of the scripts for the moment, could you please quote the relevant sections from the script, so that I know exactly what was being said rather than merely your summary of it? (Sometimes the precise wording matters.) Thank you.

[Tiree]

And it has precedence: consider the fact that the Canadian Armed Forces unified all of their militaries into one force, and require everyone - Navy included - to use an army-like rank structure. Logistically, it's great; but their former navy personnel generally aren't to thrilled with the change.

This is how I always pictured the military of the UEEF/REF/RDF/ASC. But to take it one step further, I always pictured it utilizing the ranks from the Japanese SDF.

The current RPG structure makes no sense with the way the OCC's and MOS packages are laid out. So I have instead of listing every character as a Marine, they take on the MOS, they can be a Marine. This makes being a 'Marine' more akin to being some form of Special Operations classification, like Ranger, Special Forces, Commando, SEAL.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I don't have access to the Sentinels scripts. Putting aside questions about the validity of the scripts for the moment, could you please quote the relevant sections from the script, so that I know exactly what was being said rather than merely your summary of it? (Sometimes the precise wording matters.) Thank you.

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

According to Robotech Art 3:
Rick Hunter
Age: 30
Rank: Major General; Commander-in-Chief of the Robotech Expeditionary Air Force

The REF is a multi-service Combatant Command like ala the US Army's Central Command. It is not a separate Service Branch. We have proof from the Robotech Tv series during The New Generation that there are Army and Air/Space Force units.

[jedi078]

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

This only proves that the UEEF took ASC units with them, and that they appear to be under the sole command of Edwards.

[Chris0013]

I don't have access to the Sentinels scripts. Putting aside questions about the validity of the scripts for the moment, could you please quote the relevant sections from the script, so that I know exactly what was being said rather than merely your summary of it? (Sometimes the precise wording matters.) Thank you.

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

According to Robotech Art 3:
Rick Hunter
Age: 30
Rank: Major General; Commander-in-Chief of the Robotech Expeditionary Air Force

The REF is a multi-service Combatant Command like ala the US Army's Central Command. It is not a separate Service Branch. We have proof from the Robotech Tv series during The New Generation that there are Army and Air/Space Force units.

That is the thing about it...Lisa is Captain of the SDF-3, Rick is CIC for the Air Force, Edwards is CIC for the Ground Forces/ASC, Breetai is Commanding officer for the Zentraedi contingent....who is the theater/mission commander??? There would be one military officer of flag rank who all military personel of the mission answered to. It doesn't matter what branch of service he is, all military personel would be ultimately answerable to him. As I said before, this just shows how little anyone at HG knows about the military.

[Chris0013]

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

This only proves that the UEEF took ASC units with them, and that they appear to be under the sole command of Edwards.

This concept I have no problems with....however it raises the question, if they are ASC units why are they using UEEF mecha...wouldn't they use ASC mecha???

And any ASC personel would still be answerable to a mission commander, not running off and doing their own thing whenever they wanted.

[glitterboy2098]

so your arguement is based on a line from an episode never made, from a series that was never aired, and that has been largely decanonized by HG?

[Lt Gargoyle]

I don't have access to the Sentinels scripts. Putting aside questions about the validity of the scripts for the moment, could you please quote the relevant sections from the script, so that I know exactly what was being said rather than merely your summary of it? (Sometimes the precise wording matters.) Thank you.

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

According to Robotech Art 3:
Rick Hunter
Age: 30
Rank: Major General; Commander-in-Chief of the Robotech Expeditionary Air Force

The REF is a multi-service Combatant Command like ala the US Army's Central Command. It is not a separate Service Branch. We have proof from the Robotech Tv series during The New Generation that there are Army and Air/Space Force units.

That is the thing about it...Lisa is Captain of the SDF-3, Rick is CIC for the Air Force, Edwards is CIC for the Ground Forces/ASC, Breetai is Commanding officer for the Zentraedi contingent....who is the theater/mission commander??? There would be one military officer of flag rank who all military personel of the mission answered to. It doesn't matter what branch of service he is, all military personel would be ultimately answerable to him. As I said before, this just shows how little anyone at HG knows about the military.

they took a council with them to over see the whole operational command thing. According to the Novels.

Well if you want to include the UEG in this supplement then I agree to that one. As far as the continued training of the Pioneer Mission at this time. It was obvious by the response form the ASC when Major Carpentor crew arrived that they had lost communications with the Pioneer mission years ago. So why would they continue training troops for the Pioneer Mission?

Please explain how you came up with the idea that the UEG had lost contact with The Pioneer Mission years (plural) before when Carpenter arrived less than a year after The Masters attacked. Carpenter stated that they KNEW their was an enemy in orbit around Earth. Why else would he have been relaying a message that General Reinhardt couldn't send any more reinforcements at that time. Furthermore, its stated at the beginning of Mind Games that the hyperspace reinforcements from Deep Space were responding to Space Station Liberty's mayday from the original attack.

I thought it was siad in the series, or even that I had read it somewhere in the books or Novels. If i am wrong then I apologize. It has been over two years since I have watch the Master Saga, but when i get my movies back next month from the kid sister then I will rewatch them.

As far as the term Marines is used for the ground forces it make sense to me. I think it would be great if they went more indepth with other aspects of the life in the UEEF and then the colonies. But I can understand the use of the Marines and Navy as the RtSC do.

[dataweaver]

RSCF's argument is that the real Robotech is whatever Macek wrote, and that anything published later only counts if it doesn't conflict with that. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) This is also why he still talks about the REF rather than the UEEF. You have to bear that in mind whenever you read his posts; to me, it means that much of what he says is of little use, since I go off of the basis that the RPG books are the most trustworthy source, this being the forum for the RPG and all*. And if he's working off of a different underlying premise than I am, his conclusions become suspect.

And his quotes are also suspect. I just checked Robotech Art 3: in the section quoted from there, Rick's rank is not given as "Major General; Commander-in-Chief of the Robotech Expeditionary Air Force"; it's given as "Commander in Chief of Robotech Expeditionary Air Force (R.E.A.F.) -- later rejects commission to become the commander of the Sentinels". No mention of "Major General" - which is good, because a Major General is not an Admiral. Could someone else with access to the scripts verify his quote from there, please?

Also, note the eventual resigning of his commission, something that had been abandoned as early as the Sentinels novels. As well, during the final conflict between Rick Hunter and B.D.Edwards, "Rick has learned mind control from the Garudians and tries to exercise this skill in a battle with Edwards." IMHO, Robotech Art 3 should be taken as inspiration and as a loose guide, and should not be adhered to slavishly. In particular, details (such as the implied table of organization of the Expeditionary Force) are not binding.

* If this was a general Robotech forum, my stance would likely be different. But it isn't, so I won't.

[dataweaver]

This concept I have no problems with....however it raises the question, if they are ASC units why are they using UEEF mecha...wouldn't they use ASC mecha???

Speaking for the moment in terms of woulda-coulda-shoulda: if I had my druthers, the Pioneer expedition's ground forces would initially be composed entirely of a mix of ASC veritechs and updated Zentreadi mecha. As is, I'm not comfortable with the idea of Colonel Wolfe not piloting a Spartas in the early days of the mission, and I'm hoping that the original Wolfe Pack gets portrayed as an ATAC squadron - if it gets portrayed at all. It's just as likely (if not more so) that the UEEF Marine Corps Sourcebook will focus on the ground forces circa 2044.

[Chris0013]

I don't have access to the Sentinels scripts. Putting aside questions about the validity of the scripts for the moment, could you please quote the relevant sections from the script, so that I know exactly what was being said rather than merely your summary of it? (Sometimes the precise wording matters.) Thank you.

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

According to Robotech Art 3:
Rick Hunter
Age: 30
Rank: Major General; Commander-in-Chief of the Robotech Expeditionary Air Force

The REF is a multi-service Combatant Command like ala the US Army's Central Command. It is not a separate Service Branch. We have proof from the Robotech Tv series during The New Generation that there are Army and Air/Space Force units.

That is the thing about it...Lisa is Captain of the SDF-3, Rick is CIC for the Air Force, Edwards is CIC for the Ground Forces/ASC, Breetai is Commanding officer for the Zentraedi contingent....who is the theater/mission commander??? There would be one military officer of flag rank who all military personel of the mission answered to. It doesn't matter what branch of service he is, all military personel would be ultimately answerable to him. As I said before, this just shows how little anyone at HG knows about the military.

they took a council with them to over see the whole operational command thing. According to the Novels.

They are a civilian body that is in charge of the "diplomatic" mission. There would be a single military commander who would have military control of all military personel involved in the mission. He may be answerable to the council as a civilian oversight body, or his orders may be to get them to Tirol and protect them while they carry out negotiations with the masters. They are not military commanders and during military operation they would sit in their quarters hoping the enemy does not kill them all.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

That is the thing about it...Lisa is Captain of the SDF-3, Rick is CIC for the Air Force, Edwards is CIC for the Ground Forces/ASC, Breetai is Commanding officer for the Zentraedi contingent....who is the theater/mission commander??? There would be one military officer of flag rank who all military personel of the mission answered to. It doesn't matter what branch of service he is, all military personel would be ultimately answerable to him. As I said before, this just shows how little anyone at HG knows about the military.

Rick says he's the military commander, but Lang is still the final say. In the scripts, its to Lang that Edwards goes and radically increases the mecha assigned to the SDF-03. In the video, again, its Lang who is the Mission Commander.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

RSCF's argument is that the real Robotech is whatever Macek wrote, and that anything published later only counts if it doesn't conflict with that.

My argument is that the Army of the United Earth Forces is clearly stated in Metal Fire to be The Army of the Southern Cross. There are a number of statements during The New Generation about Army forces that are part of the REF given by Scott, Lunk, the Old Coots and others. There is NO LOGICAL REASON why The Army of the Southern Cross isn't the Ground Forces component of the REF, given that they are both under the aegis of the United Earth Government. The former is clearly a Service Branch along with the GMP and AeroSpace Forces. The latter is also clearly a Combatant Command, since its made up of forces from 2 (or more) different Service Branches.

Every single version of The Sentinels and/or stories about The Pioneer Mission to date includes the ASC arsenal in some fashion (mecha, vehicles, weaponry, spaceships). This started with Robotech itself (Triumvirate, Mind Games and Catastrophe) and later included The Sentinels (video, scripts, rpg, novelizations and comics) as well as Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles (Tristar and Tokugawa) and even the new RPG after a fashion.

As I have stated, repeatedly now, I am not opposed to the idea of Cosmic Unit forces (Space Marines in all but name) being chopped to The Pioneer Mission. Not only would they provide Fleet Security, but would be needed for Boarding Actions of space stations and warships. On the ground, they would backup (not replace) The Army, probably at least being the main force to provide for Ground Security in landing/drop zones along with the Military Police. In space, the Army would back up the Marine units for boarding actions as shown in Mind Games with the 15th ATACs.

As for why I write REF, its mostly because old habits die hard. Hell, I don't mind people using RDF as a colloquial name for the United Earth Forces (or just the mecha forces of the UEF) since it INCLUDES the ASC (Edwards remarks, IIRC in Hunter's Moon, that all Grant and Wolfe have managed to do is get expensive RDF mecha blown up at that point). Its when people start to needlessly and wrongly 'differentiate' into RDF/ASC/REF that it sticks in my craw.

[Lt Gargoyle]

they took a council with them to over see the whole operational command thing. According to the Novels.

They are a civilian body that is in charge of the "diplomatic" mission. There would be a single military commander who would have military control of all military personel involved in the mission. He may be answerable to the council as a civilian oversight body, or his orders may be to get them to Tirol and protect them while they carry out negotiations with the masters. They are not military commanders and during military operation they would sit in their quarters hoping the enemy does not kill them all.

you will have to forgive me, As it has been ten years since I have read the Sentinels. But I do recall the council telling the military what they wanted done. I believe Lang was the over all head of the war machine. (And RSCF has also said this) But in the over all rewrite, I think the revised write up has fixed alot of the chain of command errors. In the new stuff as well as the New Generations they cleary and continuiously say Admiral Hunter is in charge of the REF/UEEF.

[Chris0013]

Lang may be the mission commander but he is not a military officer....there would be one military officer who is the theatre commander...Like Eisenhower was supreme commander allied forces in europe...all forces were ultimately answerable to him be they US, Brit, etc....yes he did answer to civilian authority but the military operation fell to him...suceed and be praised, fail and be shamed.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Lang may be the mission commander but he is not a military officer....there would be one military officer who is the theatre commander...Like Eisenhower was supreme commander allied forces in europe...all forces were ultimately answerable to him be they US, Brit, etc....yes he did answer to civilian authority but the military operation fell to him...suceed and be praised, fail and be shamed.

Well as to the Shadow Chronicles and the New Generation shows, they Give it to Rick Hunter. The Sentinels and Art Book 3 are no longer valid materials to use. So Rick Hunter is the over all Commander of the UEEF forces.

I do not deny that the old or even the new material need to have a military advisor on staff to help with thier scripts. I try to add a bit more to it then the show does and I am constantly asking my friends in the military questions and giving them scenarios to help me with.

[dataweaver]

Simmer down, RSCF. On the point about the ASC being the Army of the UEG, we are fully in agreement. Even the RPG books agree with you on this point. There's no need to keep beating this particular dead horse.

The point of contention is whether or not the ASC is the ground forces of the Pioneer Expedition. You say that there's no logical reason why the ASC isn't the ground forces of the Pioneer Expedition; however, the Masters Sourcebook lays out a perfectly logical scenario that results in exactly that: Leonard developed the Army component of the UEMF (United Earth Military Forces) strictly as a planetary defense force, and he considered the Pioneer Expedition to be a colossal waste.

The former is clearly a Service Branch along with the GMP and AeroSpace Forces. The latter is also clearly a Combatant Command, since its made up of forces from 2 (or more) different Service Branches.

These are not self-evident facts; merely highly attractive ones. Let me give you two alternate scenarios:

Scenario 1. The Armies of the Southern Cross are a Combatant Command, being made up of separate aerospace forces (ATAC, TAF, and TSC), ground forces (ATAC and TC), civil defense forces (CDU and CDFC), and GMP units. In this view, the defining feature of the ASC isn't "ground forces"; it's "United Earth Defense Forces": the guys who stay behind and hold down the fort, while the Pioneer Expedition is the "United Earth Expeditionary Forces".

Scenario 2. The UEEF is a Service Branch - namely, the Space Navy. All aerospace and ground forces that are assigned to the mission are ultimately under the Navy's command - either because they are Navy (remember that fighter jets that are based on Aircraft Carriers are piloted by Navy personnel; and during WWII, those that were based on the ground were piloted by Army personnel, as there was no separate Air Force) or because their commander reports directly to the Navy commander (much like the commander of the USMC reports to the commander of the USN). Remember, the military command structure doesn't have to be the same as modern-day militaries: just because modern-day Marines refer to themselves as "marines" rather than "soldiers", operate like infantry, and are the only Corps that is subordinate to but separate from one of the major service branches doesn't mean that all of these things will continue to hold - especially in a setting where the advent of battloids and power armor (and most significantly, veritechs) has blurred the distinction between infantry and armor.

Every single version of The Sentinels and/or stories about The Pioneer Mission to date includes the ASC arsenal in some fashion (mecha, vehicles, weaponry, spaceships). This started with Robotech itself (Triumvirate, Mind Games and Catastrophe) and later included The Sentinels (video, scripts, rpg, novelizations and comics) as well as Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles (Tristar and Tokugawa) and even the new RPG after a fashion.

I'll have to review those Masters episodes before I answer concerning them. I'll grant the inclusion of Spartas and Logans in the Sentinels, although a case can be (and has on occasion been) made that their inclusion was more of an exception than a rule. And the Tristar/Togugawa business with Prelude only counts as including ASC spaceships in the UEEF if you posit that those ships were originally commissioned by the ASC - a case could be made that they were initially designed and built by the UEEF, and that the ones that you see in the Masters Saga are an example of the UEEF arsenal being left behind. Or they could be collaborative designs, much like the Ajax is used by both the TASC and the TC.

But then there's the flip side: there's no evidence of Alphas being used in the Second Robotech War. You'd think that the pollination would go both ways - if you've got ASC mecha on the Pioneer mission as standard policy, why wouldn't you have Alphas, etc. helping man Earth's defenses against the Masters, also as standard policy?

As I have stated, repeatedly now, I am not opposed to the idea of Cosmic Unit forces (Space Marines in all but name) being chopped to The Pioneer Mission. Not only would they provide Fleet Security, but would be needed for Boarding Actions of space stations and warships. On the ground, they would backup (not replace) The Army, probably at least being the main force to provide for Ground Security in landing/drop zones along with the Military Police. In space, the Army would back up the Marine units for boarding actions as shown in Mind Games with the 15th ATACs.

I've never said that you are opposed to this. The problem is that I'm not sold on the notion that the UEEF MC should be one and the same as the ASC TSC.

As for why I write REF, its mostly because old habits die hard. Hell, I don't mind people using RDF as a colloquial name for the United Earth Forces (or just the mecha forces of the UEF) since it INCLUDES the ASC (Edwards remarks, IIRC in Hunter's Moon, that all Grant and Wolfe have managed to do is get expensive RDF mecha blown up at that point). Its when people start to needlessly and wrongly 'differentiate' into RDF/ASC/REF that it sticks in my craw.

As has been pointed out, Hunter's Moon was never filmed, and as such is not strictly canon. We can use it as inspiration, but we should not cling to it as gospel truth, accurate down to the tiniest detail. This is what I was meaning about us coming from different basic suppositions: I don't consider the Sentinel scripts or Robotech Art 3 to be binding; you, apparently, do.

[rem1093]

First off, when did Rick become Air Force? He did follow Roy into the service, who was navy. Hell Macross was all navy, Gloval was a naval cap., Lisa followed her father, Admiral Hayes. Even the dress was Naval.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The point of contention is whether or not the ASC is the ground forces of the Pioneer Expedition. You say that there's no logical reason why the ASC isn't the ground forces of the Pioneer Expedition; however, the Masters Sourcebook lays out a perfectly logical scenario that results in exactly that: Leonard developed the Army component of the UEMF (United Earth Military Forces) strictly as a planetary defense force, and he considered the Pioneer Expedition to be a colossal waste.

I don't give a hoot in hell what the RPG says when its in clear contention with the Tv series. I have repeatedly pointed to the fact that there is DIALOGUE from ROBOTECH that says the REF has Army units as part of its force structure. Since the REF is considered to be those UEF forces stationed away from the Earth, and the Tv series says the ASC is The Army, there is NO LOGICAL REASON for the REF Army to be some distinct and separate entity from the ASC. This is doubly evident when you take into consideration the scripts for The Sentinels. It clearly jives with Robotech's dialogue.

These are not self-evident facts

Yes, they are.

Scenario 1. The Armies of the Southern Cross are a Combatant Command, being made up of separate aerospace forces (ATAC, TAF, and TSC), ground forces (ATAC and TC), civil defense forces (CDU and CDFC), and GMP units. In this view, the defining feature of the ASC isn't "ground forces"; it's "United Earth Defense Forces": the guys who stay behind and hold down the fort, while the Pioneer Expedition is the "United Earth Expeditionary Forces".

Except that dialogue from Metal Fire disproves that.

Scenario 2. The UEEF is a Service Branch - namely, the Space Navy. All aerospace and ground forces that are assigned to the mission are ultimately under the Navy's command - either because they are Navy (remember that fighter jets that are based on Aircraft Carriers are piloted by Navy personnel; and during WWII, those that were based on the ground were piloted by Army personnel, as there was no separate Air Force) or because their commander reports directly to the Navy commander (much like the commander of the USMC reports to the commander of the USN). Remember, the military command structure doesn't have to be the same as modern-day militaries: just because modern-day Marines refer to themselves as "marines" rather than "soldiers", operate like infantry, and are the only Corps that is subordinate to but separate from one of the major service branches doesn't mean that all of these things will continue to hold - especially in a setting where the advent of battloids and power armor (and most significantly, veritechs) has blurred the distinction between infantry and armor.

Wow, I have to keep repeating myself. Lunk = Soldier in the Army (as per dialogue). Old Coots = Soldiers in the Army (as per dialogue). Scott makes references to 'Army flyboys' in Dark Finale. If you have ANY dialogue that equates the REF with a Service Branch, please provide it.

I'll grant the inclusion of Spartas and Logans in the Sentinels, although a case can be (and has on occasion been) made that their inclusion was more of an exception than a rule.

Only in the RPG. The comics, novelizations and scripts have it otherwise.

And the Tristar/Togugawa business with Prelude only counts as including ASC spaceships in the UEEF if you posit that those ships were originally commissioned by the ASC - a case could be made that they were initially designed and built by the UEEF, and that the ones that you see in the Masters Saga are an example of the UEEF arsenal being left behind. Or they could be collaborative designs, much like the Ajax is used by both the TASC and the TC.

The REF doesn't build a godd@mn thing. Their mecha are property of the United Earth Government.

But then there's the flip side: there's no evidence of Alphas being used in the Second Robotech War. You'd think that the pollination would go both ways - if you've got ASC mecha on the Pioneer mission as standard policy, why wouldn't you have Alphas, etc. helping man Earth's defenses against the Masters, also as standard policy?

Probably because Air Superiority isn't that big of a priority for the UEF in the 2nd Robotech War. Interceptors like the Sylphide & Falcon are for Defense-in-Depth, which the UEF used as shown in the Tv series. In space, the Ajax does far better at Space Superiority than the Alpha, at least according to Robotech.com, because the Alpha has 'short legs in space' (which is never quite defined). There very well could have been Alpha's used during the 2nd Robotech War (there was a large toy of one seen in the toystore in the city in Frostbite).

The problem is that I'm not sold on the notion that the UEEF MC should be one and the same as the ASC TSC.

Why?

As has been pointed out, Hunter's Moon was never filmed, and as such is not strictly canon. We can use it as inspiration, but we should not cling to it as gospel truth, accurate down to the tiniest detail. This is what I was meaning about us coming from different basic suppositions: I don't consider the Sentinel scripts or Robotech Art 3 to be binding; you, apparently, do.

I don't consider them binding either. But on the general fact of the ASC, they jive with Robotech. You're position is squarely at odds with the Tv series. It needlessly multiplies things.

Lonely Soldier Boy
Lunk: Face it Kevin, I'm a soldier after all. Its time I started acting like one.
Kevin: But Lunk, use your head. If the Invid don't get you, the Army will.

Eulogy
Scott Bernard: You mean the Invid aren't soldier hunting in this quadrant anymore?
Unnamed EF Soldier: Are you kidding, we've got so many soldiers here those vermin will never come near.
...........
Colonel Wolfe: Can't talk now, we've got wounded. Soldier, take care of Tom.

The Fortress
Scott: Thats an old outpost of our Mountain Offense Squad from the war against the Robotech Masters.

Sandstorm
Scott: You see everyone, this is a perfect example of the need to follow orders to the letter. A soldier who is incapable of doing that is worse than useless.
Rand: You're way out of line Scott.
Scott: Am I?
Rand: First of all, Lunk isn't a soldier anymore. He volunteered for this mission. And if that isn't enough, just look at this. The Invid were using his jeep for target practice. I think thats a pretty good excuse for a man to disobey orders.
Scott: Admiral Hunter expected everyone in Mars Division to do his duty, no matter what the risks involved.

Ghost Town
Scott: In case you're interested, I just happen to be an officer from Mars Base, 1st Division of an army sent here by Admiral Hunter.
...................................
Jesse: Genuine Army-issue laser rifles.
Lancer: This model must date clear back to the War against the Robotech Masters. I guess it wouldn't be good taste to ask you where you got them.
............
Jesse: Way back when we was soldiers, the Army issued us these weapons to us.
............
Lancer: (to himself) What a sad bunch this is. Soldiers who've lost their will to fight.
.............
Jesse: We ain't soldiers any longer and don't take orders from the likes of you or anyone else.
...............
The Narrator: (referring to Gabby) On an isolated trail leading to the Invid Broadcast Tower, a lone vehicle penetrates the forbidden area. At the wheel, clad in battle armor, a single soldier confronts the deadly enemy with calm, grim determination. In the face of certain death, he drives on, ignoring the danger. He is a soldier, with a duty to perform.
........
Frank: (referring to Gabby) He was a brave and loyal soldier all the way and then some.
Marlene/Ariel: Whats this?
Rand: Its a holograph of someone!
Gabby's Son: Hi Dad, like Father like Son. So here I am in the Army now and I just hope you'll be as proud of me as I am of you.

Dark Finale
General Reinhardt: We must wait for the Ground Forces to clear a path to Reflex Point before the invasion can truly begin.
...............
Rand: This is gonna be a heck of a party.
Scott: Forget it, you're not coming. This is strictly a military operation.
..........
Lunk: Hey everybody. Well, what do ya know, this crazy Army made me a soldier again.
........
Scott Bernard: Yep I get the impression these Army flyboys are a little rusty at it. So I think we'll just have to give them a few pointers.

[jedi078]

The REF doesn't build a godd@mn thing. Their mecha are property of the United Earth Government.

By the time of the Invid Invasion there is NO United Earth Government. It's been dissolved/destroyed due to either the 2nd RT war or the Invid occupying Earth and laying waste to any and all entities that could have stood up to them.

That said how can you have something that belongs to a Government that no longer exists? At best you’d have colonial governments who feel obligated to liberate Earth from the Invid. Other colonial governments would not care about the disposition of Earth. Those colonies that produced mecha to aid in the liberation of Earth would not just hand the mecha over wholesale. They’d supply their own pilot’s, mecha, transports, support personnel etc.

Realistically the UEEF at the time of the Invid occupation was made up of the military forces of a number of colonies founded during the UEEF’s expedition to find Tirol. This adds all sort of political ramifications. Such as who’s in charge? Why should I follow the orders of THAT colonies General/Admiral instead of my own? Who the heck cares about Earth?

[Lt Gargoyle]

The REF doesn't build a godd@mn thing. Their mecha are property of the United Earth Government.

By the time of the Invid Invasion there is NO United Earth Government. It's been dissolved/destroyed due to either the 2nd RT war or the Invid occupying Earth and laying waste to any and all entities that could have stood up to them.

That said how can you have something that belongs to a Government that no longer exists? At best you’d have colonial governments who feel obligated to liberate Earth from the Invid. Other colonial governments would not care about the disposition of Earth. Those colonies that produced mecha to aid in the liberation of Earth would not just hand the mecha over wholesale. They’d supply their own pilot’s, mecha, transports, support personnel etc.

Realistically the UEEF at the time of the Invid occupation was made up of the military forces of a number of colonies founded during the UEEF’s expedition to find Tirol. This adds all sort of political ramifications. Such as who’s in charge? Why should I follow the orders of THAT colonies General/Admiral instead of my own? Who the heck cares about Earth?

I was thinking this same thing as I was reading the post.
I have no doubt that the UEEF is under complete military control (Martial law), with rules and obligations from the colonies for supplies.

[dataweaver]

Like I said: you and I have two very different sets of basic assumptions. I assume that when I'm discussing the Robotech roleplaying game, the RPG books take precedence in a conflict. You assume that the TV show takes precedence, no matter what aspect of Robotech is under discussion. Until that difference gets settled, I don't think that we're going to be able to see eye to eye.

That said, please try to debate the points that I'm putting forward, instead of the points that you think I'm putting forward. You might be surprised about what sorts of things we agree on if you stop being so stubbornly antagonistic.

I don't give a hoot in hell what the RPG says when its in clear contention with the Tv series.

I understand that. On the point in question (i.e., whether or not there can be a logical reason for the UEEF ground forces to be distinct from the ASC), it isn't in clear contention with the series. Aside from one line in a script that never got filmed, there's nothing in the Tv series that actually states that the UEEF ground forces are the Army of the Southern Cross - that is strictly supposition on your part, based on circumstantial evidence and backed up by bluster and unsubstantiated claims about the irrationality of holding any position other than that. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that they aren't one and the same. I'm willing to consider the possibility that they are, and I will agree that much of the evidence that you cite is compelling. Still circumstantial, but compelling nonetheless.

I didn't mention that the idea originated in the RPG in order to give it more credibility; I did so so that you would know where to look to get more details about it if you are ever so inclined. Consider the theory on its own merits, rather than dismissing it out of hand. And please try to separate the facts of the matter from the conclusions that you draw from them: it's possible for other, rational, people to draw different conclusions.

Except that dialogue from Metal Fire disproves that.

Please supply the dialog that shows that ASC isn't synonymous with UEDF.

Wow, I have to keep repeating myself.

Or you have to actually pay attention to what I'm saying, instead of reading your own assumptions into it. Note that at no point did I exclude the possibility of the UEEF having Army units; I was very careful not to do so. My main point is that a future/alternate universe military won't necessarily work the same way that ours does: just because the Army has traditionally been a separate and equal branch of the military services, that doesn't mean that the UEEF will be organized that way.

Only in the RPG. The comics, novelizations and scripts have it otherwise.

I beg to differ. The comics and novelizations go as far as to say that there were Spartas and Logans on the Pioneer Expedition; they say nothing about how plentiful they are, one way or the other. I can't speak to the script, not having had the opportunity to read it; but I'll be surprised if it differs significantly from the first novel.

The REF doesn't build a godd@mn thing.

Then where did all of those cyclones and Shadow Fighters come from?

And let's take your argument to its logical conclusion: if the REF doesn't build anything, then neither does the ASC; it's all property of the UEG. And if you're going to argue that point, then you can't say that ASC gear was in use by the UEEF - after all, it's all property of the UEG; right?

Probably because Air Superiority isn't that big of a priority for the UEF in the 2nd Robotech War. Interceptors like the Sylphide & Falcon are for Defense-in-Depth, which the UEF used as shown in the Tv series. In space, the Ajax does far better at Space Superiority than the Alpha, at least according to Robotech.com, because the Alpha has 'short legs in space' (which is never quite defined). There very well could have been Alpha's used during the 2nd Robotech War (there was a large toy of one seen in the toystore in the city in Frostbite).

OK; I can see that.

The problem is that I'm not sold on the notion that the UEEF MC should be one and the same as the ASC TSC.

Why?

For reasons that you've already dismissed out of hand, and which I've already stated. If you're willing to give me a fair hearing, I'll try again. OK?

[various quotes from the show, mostly featuring "soldier" and "army"]

Bear in mind that in the eyes of a civilian, "soldier" means "a guy who's in the military and who fights in wars"; and "army" is usually short for "military" or "military organization". He generally doesn't concern himself with the finer details. Now bear in mind that Carl Macek was a civilian. This is another area where it doesn't pay to get caught up in nitpicking the semantics, because the original writer wasn't being particularly precise. Remember: "soldier" conveys "military man" to most people, as opposed to "civilian"; "army" means "professional military organization". It is not being used to distinguish between "ground force", "aerospace force", and "space force".

In short, you're reading too much into those two words.

With that out of the way, let me address the remaining points:

The Fortress
Scott: Thats an old outpost of our Mountain Offense Squad from the war against the Robotech Masters.

I'm presuming that you included this quote because of the "our". As you say, both the Pioneer Expedition and Earth's defenses were being manned by members of the UEF. And more to the point, "our" could just as easily be referring to "us humans" (as opposed to Invid, Masters, or Zentreadi) as to "the UEF" or "te ASC".

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

That said, please try to debate the points that I'm putting forward, instead of the points that you think I'm putting forward. You might be surprised about what sorts of things we agree on if you stop being so stubbornly antagonistic.

Apparently, I'm not a mind reader. Please explain yourself better. I'm trying to be as plain as possible so as to not confuse the issues.

On the point in question (i.e., whether or not there can be a logical reason for the UEEF ground forces to be distinct from the ASC), it isn't in clear contention with the series. Aside from one line in a script that never got filmed, there's nothing in the Tv series that actually states that the UEEF ground forces are the Army of the Southern Cross - that is strictly supposition on your part, based on circumstantial evidence and backed up by bluster and unsubstantiated claims about the irrationality of holding any position other than that. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that they aren't one and the same. I'm willing to consider the possibility that they are, and I will agree that much of the evidence that you cite is compelling. Still circumstantial, but compelling nonetheless.

Why is it that dialogue from the show is considered circumstantial? Truthfully, it never ceases to amaze me that when I provide something from the show its not considered proof enough, yet those making the counter-claim can provide nothing whatsoever. I'm being honest and not snarky.

I didn't mention that the idea originated in the RPG in order to give it more credibility; I did so so that you would know where to look to get more details about it if you are ever so inclined. Consider the theory on its own merits, rather than dismissing it out of hand. And please try to separate the facts of the matter from the conclusions that you draw from them: it's possible for other, rational, people to draw different conclusions.

There are a limited number of facts in this case. When there is no conflict with Robotech, The Sentinels can be mined for information. The simplest answers are always the best, otherwise you end up with brain-pretzel logic that is the equivalent of pounding a square peg in a round hole.

Please supply the dialog that shows that ASC isn't synonymous with UEDF.

WTH? The term Robotech Defenders is used throughout Robotech, even New Generation. The REF is even called The Earth Defense Expedition at one point. What does the word DEFENSE have to do with making the REF separate from the UEF?

just because the Army has traditionally been a separate and equal branch of the military services, that doesn't mean that the UEEF will be organized that way.

::sighs::

We have dialogue, from Robotech, that says there are Army units part of the Expeditionary Forces. They are apparently distinct enough from Scott and Lancer that Scott makes to their pilots in Dark Finale.

I beg to differ. The comics and novelizations go as far as to say that there were Spartas and Logans on the Pioneer Expedition; they say nothing about how plentiful they are, one way or the other. I can't speak to the script, not having had the opportunity to read it; but I'll be surprised if it differs significantly from the first novel.

There were Hovetank squadrons other than The Wolfe Pack shown in the comics. In fact, the finale comic of the Academy run that shows the Invid commanded by Edwards overruning Tirol has several hovertanks taking part in the grand melee. This despite the fact that The Wolfe Pack was still with The Sentinels. Only Colonel Wolfe himself out of his unit was on Tirol.

Also, IIRC, in the novelizations there were hovertanks amid the wreckage at Point K. I can't locate my New Generation copies at the moment.

Then where did all of those cyclones and Shadow Fighters come from?

From some form of government procurement.

And let's take your argument to its logical conclusion: if the REF doesn't build anything, then neither does the ASC; it's all property of the UEG.

Naturally. As I've stated, the ASC is The Army of the United Earth Forces. We know the UEF is the combined military forces of the United Earth Government.

And if you're going to argue that point, then you can't say that ASC gear was in use by the UEEF - after all, it's all property of the UEG; right?

?

You do know that the US Army's equipment is property of the United States government, right? That same equipment, when assigned to Army units part of Central Command does not magically becoming property of Canada. You also seem to be elevating the REF to that of a Service Branch, which it is not.

ASC = Service Branch
REF = Combatant Command

For reasons that you've already dismissed out of hand, and which I've already stated. If you're willing to give me a fair hearing, I'll try again. OK?

As far as I've seen, you've given no reasons.

Now bear in mind that Carl Macek was a civilian. This is another area where it doesn't pay to get caught up in nitpicking the semantics, because the original writer wasn't being particularly precise. Remember: "soldier" conveys "military man" to most people, as opposed to "civilian"; "army" means "professional military organization". It is not being used to distinguish between "ground force", "aerospace force", and "space force".

Except that Carl did not write the dialogue himself. The Staff Writers did, one of whom is Greg Finley. Greg was a Captain in the US Army Special Forces for 18 months in Vietnam, according to his IMDB Page.

In short, you're reading too much into those two words.

No I am not.

And more to the point, "our" could just as easily be referring to "us humans" (as opposed to Invid, Masters, or Zentreadi) as to "the UEF" or "te ASC".

Edit: Let me be clear about something so there is no confusion. I'm not mad at Palladium, Kevin, Alex or Jason over this issue. My beef is with Tommy Yune and Harmony Gold. However, if I as a consumer do not make my views heard, then I have no one to blame but myself. So please do not think I'm directing this at Palladium or its staff.

[Chris0013]

While the series is canon you do have to take it with a grain of salt when it comes to the organizational structure of the UEDF/UEEF. They were written by people who have no idea how the military functions.



All we want is a definite military orginizational table established....that shows chain of command and responsibilities....it is all well and good to me if Edwards is the ranking officer for the ASC detachment of the expedition...however who is he answerable to....it would not be the civilian council that went along with the expedition, there would be one military officer who is in charge of all military personnel. If this guy is then answerable to the civilian council then so be it, but he would have complete authority over all military personnel.

Example: Major General Hunter is the Mission commander. Col Edwards goes off and is doing his thing contrary to orders or he has no orders to do anything else and just takes his unit out and starts doing whatever and Hunter doesn't like it then Hunter can order Edwards back to base. It is that simple.

[Tiree]

While the series is canon you do have to take it with a grain of salt when it comes to the organizational structure of the UEDF/UEEF. They were written by people who have no idea how the military functions.

I am not sure we should take it with a grain of salt. Seriously the series had a whole lot of mistakes in combat. Lucky shots, amazing hits, radical misses, tactical blunders, etc... This could be the effect of a terrible command structure. What you are saying is that we should mold the TV Series into what we think the structure should be like, not what it actually was.

I am not saying your wrong - I think every group should make that determination. But I am with RSCF - make the RPG as close to the show as possible as your baseline. From there let the folks mod, and take logical conclusions from there.

It is like modding a car. Do you start with a tricked out car, and then remove stuff to make the base original model, or do you take the base original model and trick it out.

[dataweaver]

Apparently, I'm not a mind reader. Please explain yourself better. I'm trying to be as plain as possible so as to not confuse the issues.

As am I. I'll try harder to make myself clear, and I look forward to more requests for clarification from you when I'm not clear enough. Deal?

On the point in question (i.e., whether or not there can be a logical reason for the UEEF ground forces to be distinct from the ASC), it isn't in clear contention with the series. Aside from one line in a script that never got filmed, there's nothing in the Tv series that actually states that the UEEF ground forces are the Army of the Southern Cross - that is strictly supposition on your part, based on circumstantial evidence and backed up by bluster and unsubstantiated claims about the irrationality of holding any position other than that. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that they aren't one and the same. I'm willing to consider the possibility that they are, and I will agree that much of the evidence that you cite is compelling. Still circumstantial, but compelling nonetheless.

Why is it that dialogue from the show is considered circumstantial? Truthfully, it never ceases to amaze me that when I provide something from the show its not considered proof enough, yet those making the counter-claim can provide nothing whatsoever. I'm being honest and not snarky.

Again, the dialog that you reference is direct evidence supporting the idea that the UEEF's ground forces have features commonly ascribed to Army units. The leap in logic is the claim that this means that they must be the Army of the Southern Cross, and that no other explanation could possibly hold water (that's what I take from "there is NO LOGICAL REASON for the REF Army to be some distinct and separate entity from the ASC"). The only direct evidence supporting the equivalence of the UEEF ground forces and the ASC is the quote you've provided from the Sentinels script, and one possible interpretation of a line from New Generation concerning a Mountain Offensive Squad base.

I didn't mention that the idea originated in the RPG in order to give it more credibility; I did so so that you would know where to look to get more details about it if you are ever so inclined. Consider the theory on its own merits, rather than dismissing it out of hand. And please try to separate the facts of the matter from the conclusions that you draw from them: it's possible for other, rational, people to draw different conclusions.

There are a limited number of facts in this case. When there is no conflict with Robotech, The Sentinels can be mined for information. The simplest answers are always the best, otherwise you end up with brain-pretzel logic that is the equivalent of pounding a square peg in a round hole.

First off, the simplest answer is not always the best. When you're dealing with an organization that's being put together for a piece of fiction, sometimes a more dramatic answer trumps a simpler one. And "the most dramatic answer" is a matter of personal taste. Granted, complexity for the sake of complexity is indeed a bad thing; but that's a strawman, as that has never been my goal.

So, once again: setting aside your extrapolations and looking at the explanation that the RPG outlines strictly from a factual basis, are there any inconsistencies? Or is your objection to it strictly based on a personal preference for simplicity?

Please supply the dialog that shows that ASC isn't synonymous with UEDF.

WTH? The term Robotech Defenders is used throughout Robotech, even New Generation. The REF is even called The Earth Defense Expedition at one point. What does the word DEFENSE have to do with making the REF separate from the UEF?

You thought I was trying to define the REF as separate from the UEG military? No; I'm not. I fully agree that the UEEF is part of the UEG military, and I fully agree that the ASC is part of the UEG military. I'm using "UEDF" to reference "those UEG forces that were tasked with defending the Earth", and contrasting that with "UEEF" to reference "those UEG forces that were sent with the Pioneer Mission". In this arrangement, the distinction was crystalized in 2022 with the launch of the Pioneer expedition: those who went were UEEF; those who stayed were UEDF. Both were UEG military. Am I clear?

just because the Army has traditionally been a separate and equal branch of the military services, that doesn't mean that the UEEF will be organized that way.

::sighs::

We have dialogue, from Robotech, that says there are Army units part of the Expeditionary Forces. They are apparently distinct enough from Scott and Lancer that Scott makes to their pilots in Dark Finale.

That would be the "Army flyboys" quote, right? Three points:

1. While that argues for "separate branch" (unlike navy aviators), it does not say anything about "equal branch": the UEEF's army corps could still be subordinate to the Admiralty, much like the USMC is today.

2. What are the UEEF ground forces doing with "flyboys" anyway? That line implies that not only is the UEF's army a distinct branch, but also that it has its own aerospace forces. In terms of the "simplest solution" paradigm, isn't that overcomplicating matters?

3. This also implies that Scott isn't in the Army, since he's a pilot but not an "Army flyboy". In turn, this supports the notion that "soldier" is not always being used as a synonym for "Army personnel", which makes it an open question as to how often it is being used that way.

I beg to differ. The comics and novelizations go as far as to say that there were Spartas and Logans on the Pioneer Expedition; they say nothing about how plentiful they are, one way or the other. I can't speak to the script, not having had the opportunity to read it; but I'll be surprised if it differs significantly from the first novel.

There were Hovetank squadrons other than The Wolfe Pack shown in the comics. In fact, the finale comic of the Academy run that shows the Invid commanded by Edwards overruning Tirol has several hovertanks taking part in the grand melee. This despite the fact that The Wolfe Pack was still with The Sentinels. Only Colonel Wolfe himself out of his unit was on Tirol.

Also, IIRC, in the novelizations there were hovertanks amid the wreckage at Point K. I can't locate my New Generation copies at the moment.

Hovertanks being found on Earth? Imagine that. But yes; assuming that the comics are still valid, I'll grant that they do indicate that hovertanks were more plentiful in the UEEF than a single squadron of them.

And if you're going to argue that point, then you can't say that ASC gear was in use by the UEEF - after all, it's all property of the UEG; right?

?

You do know that the US Army's equipment is property of the United States government, right? That same equipment, when assigned to Army units part of Central Command does not magically becoming property of Canada. You also seem to be elevating the REF to that of a Service Branch, which it is not.

ASC = Service Branch
REF = Combatant Command

Circular reasoning: you're declaring that the UEEF is not a service branch, and then using that as an argument against the possibility that it is one. One of the possibilities that I'm proposing is that the "aerospace and ground forces of te UEEF" are organized in a manner not unlike the United States' "Navy and Marines" arrangement, as opposed to an "Army, Navy, and Air Force" arrangement. You wouldn't call a Navy aircraft carrier a "combined command" simply because it has sailors, pilots, and marines on board; the forces in the UEEF could likewise be organized with the Spacy being dominant, and any other branches that are present being answerable to them. If that's the case, then the UEEF would effectively be
the Spacy. As I've indicated before, references to "the Army" among REF personnel do not contradict this possibility; only references that explicitly indicate a shared command structure do - and the only examples of that which you have been able to provide have come from the now-questionable sources of Robotech Art 3 and the Sentinels script.

For reasons that you've already dismissed out of hand, and which I've already stated. If you're willing to give me a fair hearing, I'll try again. OK?

As far as I've seen, you've given no reasons.

No; I have. Let me clarify: I said that "I'm not sold on the notion that the UEEF MC should be one and the same as the ASC TSC" (emphasis added). By that, I mean that I'm not convinced that no other option makes sense. As such, all of my arguments that the ground forces of the UEEF don't have to be the ASC are also arguments that the UEEF MC doesn't have to be the TSC.

Now bear in mind that Carl Macek was a civilian. This is another area where it doesn't pay to get caught up in nitpicking the semantics, because the original writer wasn't being particularly precise. Remember: "soldier" conveys "military man" to most people, as opposed to "civilian"; "army" means "professional military organization". It is not being used to distinguish between "ground force", "aerospace force", and "space force".

Except that Carl did not write the dialogue himself. The Staff Writers did, one of whom is Greg Finley. Greg was a Captain in the US Army Special Forces for 18 months in Vietnam, according to his IMDB Page.

Granted. Now, can you verify that he provided sufficient quality control to ensure that all military terminology written by any of the staff writers was being used as it would be in the US Armed Forces? If you can't say that, then it's still reasonable to assume that the terms were being used in a colloquial fashion rather than a technical fashion. And, as I indicated above, Scott's "Army flyboys" comment leads to a paradox that can only be resolved if "soldier" is being used more broadly than "a member of the Army".

In short, you're reading too much into those two words.

No I am not.

Are too...

Edit: Let me be clear about something so there is no confusion. I'm not mad at Palladium, Kevin, Alex or Jason over this issue. My beef is with Tommy Yune and Harmony Gold. However, if I as a consumer do not make my views heard, then I have no one to blame but myself. So please do not think I'm directing this at Palladium or its staff.

FWIW, my main beef with you is that you're presenting your views as Truth From On High - I get the sense that you're saying that you're right and everyone else is wrong; and if we don't agree with you, then we're stupid, ignorant, or both. If you allow that there might be other valid interpretations, it will go a long way to diffusing that impression.

[dataweaver]

I am not saying your wrong - I think every group should make that determination. But I am with RSCF - make the RPG as close to the show as possible as your baseline. From there let the folks mod, and take logical conclusions from there.

Fundamentally, this is the "Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles RPG". As such, a strong case can be made that it should be as close to the views that went into making "the Shadow Chronicles" as possible. For good or ill, that means Tommy Yune's vision of Robotech. My understanding is also that this is non-negotiable: if PB doesn't conform to HG's current views on Robotech, PB loses the license and we get nothing.

That said, I do understand where you're coming from; and to the extent that PB has room to maneuver, I would hope that they steer as close to the show as possible, to minimize the amount of tweaking that purists will need to do.

[Chris0013]

It could be that the ASC is actually more akin to a colonial militia that has the responsibility of defending Earth and the surrounding space...much like what I assume any colony has....the UEEF is a Spacy/Marine force projection service that would respond to any and all requests for assistance that a colony world may need...however being spread too thin fighting the Invid they could not send support to back up the ASC.

[dataweaver]

While I usually agree with Rabid Southern Cross, this is one case where I don't really think that he's right. Even in Sentinels, there is no indication that any ASC units were sent with UEEF. The ASC mecha that we see in Sentinels is generally used by the Wolfe Pack and that was because Wolfe was a test pilot for the ASC's mecha. We also know that at some point they stopped using them, or else Wolfe wouldn't be seen in New Generation as a Cyclone pilot and a very experienced Alpha ace.

While I agree with most of what you said, I have to take exception on a few points here. The first is that RSCF did establish quite clearly that it was Macek's original intent that the Expedition's ground forces were under the command of Edwards, and that this made them ASC. The second is that he does have a point about the comics illustrating more VHTs in the REF than just the ones in Wolfe Pack. Still, both of these sources (as with nearly everything related to the Sentinels) is secondary canon at best. AFAICT, the only "primary canon" that we have concerning the Sentinels saga is in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles; and it focuses on the closing days of the Sentinels and says nothing about the opening days.

I could be wrong; the Sentinels film might also be considered to be primary canon, on the idea that anything that actually got animated and released counts. And nothing in Prelude contradicts anything in the film. But it only covers the early days of the Sentinels, not even making it as far as the departure of the expedition. Other than establishing that the expedition had Alphas and Betas, it says nothing about its mecha complement, and very little about its organizational structure. Either way, we don't have a primary canon source that establishes what sort of role, if any, the ASC played in the Pioneer expedition; and the secondary sources are in conflict.

[Tiree]

I could be wrong; the Sentinels film might also be considered to be primary canon, on the idea that anything that actually got animated and released counts.

HG has released a timeline of canon, and the Sentinels Film was tossed out. Otherwise Robotech 3000 would also be considered canon...