Why does"Enviormental" stop magic ?

[cornholioprime]

Enviornmental armor cuts off the user from his/her enviornment and in so doing from the source of energy they need to feed their power.

Erroneous.

The PPE is contained within the Mage, not drawn in from elsewhere apart from such 'obvious' external sources such as Ley Lines. Nor does a Mage need to be 'out in the open' in order to recharge himself.

Well....it does hamper the ability for the mage to channel their internal PPE - perhaps this is what Ale meant?

My examples -this one and others -are just a way to point out how the Magic/Enclosed Restrictions are there for In-Game reasons, not Logical ones. Furthermore, there ARE Armors that are environmentally enclosed, but which allow the Mage the full use of his Magical Abilities at no additional "cost" to them (see the Chitin Suits of the Jungle Elves of the South America Books).

You ever hear of a reduced ability for Mages to recuperate their PPE in enclosed environments?? Me neither.

There's no consistency to the way that Magic works in Armor because the goal isn't Logic, it's to maintain Game Balance.

("Hey, CS Trooper in SAMAS Armor....I'm over here in this Balck Market Power Armor of my own and I'm now going to launch Magical Attacks against you from within the safety of my own Suit and I'm going to use my own PA's attacks against you besides! Then, tomorrow, I'm going to kill off your buddies with more magical attacks from behind the armored viewports of a stolen Coalition Abolisher!!")

[Lenwen]

At higher levels, a mage will find armor to be more of a hamper. 20% more PPE higher level spells will be deadly. But at that point, he can cast Invs. superior, magic door, teleport: superior, Giant, Invul., Invul. to energy...

Actually even with Energy Sphere ( two no less) not many mages can at any lvl cast Teleport :Sup ( something your not taking into account)

And by the time that mage casts all those other spells that mage would have been shot at LEAST once per every time either "Attempting" to cast those spells or in between each spell ..

The mage is dead prior to the mage getting off that many spells either way you look at it.

I'm not forgetting anything. I wasn't bringing "upbrining" into this, because this isn't a mage vs warrior topic, and as such, magic can be used incredibly effective with technology even without TW. This aspect HAS to be taken into concideration to get full effect of just how powerful magic can be. As it stands a mage is just as good at shooting hiding and other things as tech

And I was wrong earlier...I don't agree with Kevin...magic is still far too powerful.

So your saying Magic is stronger .. when used in "Concert" WITH.. I highlighted that word "with" because with out the tech in your scenario, that mage using his spells is flat out .. killed before he gets two spells off ..

[dark brandon]

Actually even with Energy Sphere ( two no less) not many mages can at any lvl cast Teleport :Sup ( something your not taking into account)

Mage spells increase with levels. At level 5 a mage's AoI spell is as good as any light armor. He gets more range and distance that way.

And by the time that mage casts all those other spells that mage would have been shot at LEAST once per every time either "Attempting" to cast those spells or in between each spell ..

Your right. A mage should be able to stand in the open and cast his spells without dieing. Once again, you've proven that magic is far inferior to tech. Good job!

So your saying Magic is stronger .. when used in "Concert" WITH.. I highlighted that word "with" because with out the tech in your scenario, that mage using his spells is flat out .. killed before he gets two spells off ..

Well, the day that mages can no longer use tech...then...yeah. But, Not everything is so black and white for me. Wish I had a talent to see everything in one dimension.

[Daniel Stoker]

Well, the day that mages can no longer use tech...then...yeah. But, Not everything is so black and white for me. Wish I had a talent to see everything in one dimension.

All I can think of is the movie Wizards by Ralph Bakshi right at the end when Avatar and Blackwolf are facing off for their 'battle' and Avatar who hasn't been practicing magic like Blackwolf tells his brother he's going to get him with one last trick their mother showed him before she died... and then shoots Blackwolf in the heart with a gun he hid in his robes. Magic has it's place, but there's nothing saying a magic user will disdain the use of weapons and technology even if their magic can be superior.


Daniel Stoker

[Lenwen]

And by the time that mage casts all those other spells that mage would have been shot at LEAST once per every time either "Attempting" to cast those spells or in between each spell ..

Your right. A mage should be able to stand in the open and cast his spells without dieing. Once again, you've proven that magic is far inferior to tech. Good job!

A wee bit testy I see .. when the proof is clear enough in an of itself...

So your saying Magic is stronger .. when used in "Concert" WITH.. I highlighted that word "with" because with out the tech in your scenario, that mage using his spells is flat out .. killed before he gets two spells off ..

Well, the day that mages can no longer use tech...then...yeah. But, Not everything is so black and white for me. Wish I had a talent to see everything in one dimension.

Considering your avatar, I find that rather hard to believe ..

[Ale Golem]

...if the CS armors were real..

And that's where your argument falls apart. They're not real, none of it is real and as such doesn't follow any realisitc interaction. How exactly would one argue how magic interacts with any physical barrier as magic, and here's the important part, does not exist. It's metaphysical, made up, fake, for poops and giggle or however else you would like to phrase it. As such the debate is now being held about ones personal concepts of what would need to be an acceptable enviornment for magic to function. Enviornmental armor cuts off the user from his/her enviornment and in so doing from the source of energy they need to feed their power.

Great way to try to avoid the debate .

Not at all. My point, boiled down, basically revolves around the fact that magic is only accessable in the world of Rifts due to massive amounts of psychic natural energy being released into the world. Cutting one off from that ambient energy would seem a natural way to hamper their access to the abilities it grants. The way I see it is a mage uses P.P.E. to forcibly control and shape the ambient energy around him, no energy to shape means nothing to exert his force of will over. That, in my opinion, is why a mage can still regain spent P.P.E. no matter where they are. It's just a mechanical proxy for their willpower.

[Lenwen]

Not at all. My point, boiled down, basically revolves around the fact that magic is only accessable in the world of Rifts due to massive amounts of psychic natural energy being released into the world. Cutting one off from that ambient energy would seem a natural way to hamper their access to the abilities it grants. The way I see it is a mage uses P.P.E. to forcibly control and shape the ambient energy around him, no energy to shape means nothing to exert his force of will over. That, in my opinion, is why a mage can still regain spent P.P.E. no matter where they are. It's just a mechanical proxy for their willpower.

Ahh ok now I understand you. But if that is the way you play your magic how does it effect a mage in a world where there are zero ambient PPE ?

[Daniel Stoker]

Ahh ok now I understand you. But if that is the way you play your magic how does it effect a mage in a world where there are zero ambient PPE ?

Isn't that essentially what you get with Splicers?


Daniel Stoker

[Ale Golem]

Ahh ok now I understand you. But if that is the way you play your magic how does it effect a mage in a world where there are zero ambient PPE ?

A mage would have to fall back on body armor and firearms like the rest of us schlubs. If they were there long enough and there was some other form of magic being practiced that didn't rely on ambient P.P.E. to fuel it I might let them start learning whatever O.C.C. practiced it by subbing out levels.

[Lenwen]

Ahh ok now I understand you. But if that is the way you play your magic how does it effect a mage in a world where there are zero ambient PPE ?

Isn't that essentially what you get with Splicers?


Daniel Stoker

Unfortunatly I do not know, I've no Splicer books and have not had the chance to even page threw one .. which is sad if ya ask me.

I know the basic premise of the setting, but had no clue there was zero PPE at all in that setting .. that would be a scary place indeed ..

[Daniel Stoker]

Unfortunatly I do not know, I've no Splicer books and have not had the chance to even page threw one .. which is sad if ya ask me.

I know the basic premise of the setting, but had no clue there was zero PPE at all in that setting .. that would be a scary place indeed ..

The book describes it as an anti-magic environment where the mage ends up with only half his normal PPE, spells work at half effectiveness but also cost twice as much and it takes 3 times longer then normal to recoup your PPE base.


Daniel Stoker

[dark brandon]

A wee bit testy I see .. when the proof is clear enough in an of itself...

Not testy. I just think your expectations are too high. You want every mage to be gandolf and I think this is an unreasonable expectation. I also feel you either have played mages poorly or have seen them played poorly.

Considering your avatar, I find that rather hard to believe ..

I don't know why, but I think you might be surprised to find I've played a Mystic (not a mystic knight, just a mystic) in my last rifts game. I probably played him for about a year before he died, and from experience, I tell you mages are very powerful. I was able to at 4rd lvl take out a glitterboy. This while wearing Full EBA armor (taking the penalties) and using spells lvl 4 and below.

My avatar means means nothing, it's an avatar. Hell, in another sight I have an avatar of gothic powerpuff girls and a really cool gif avatar from the tim and erics awesome show....I mean seriously...the best you can come up with is using my avatar to prove a point?

P.S. I know someone is gonna ask "How'd you do it": I used chameleon to sneak up on the GB, which works great because we were in the desert on a hot day. I used climb spell to reach his position (he was high on a wall), CoA to hold him in place...I think I ended up destroying his hand to break the environmental seal, using a gun or bomb or something...then cast Horror or fear (The AoE spell, 2nd lvl) from behind...and as per the spell he has to try and run away from the area...so he has to jump out of the suit. One Telemechanics later, you have a 4rd lvl mystic piloting a GB.

[Lenwen]

A wee bit testy I see .. when the proof is clear enough in an of itself...

Not testy. I just think your expectations are too high. You want every mage to be gandolf and I think this is an unreasonable expectation. I also feel you either have played mages poorly or have seen them played poorly.

Both actually I've more then often seen them played poorly as well as done my fair share of playing them poorly. haha so yes to both.

Considering your avatar, I find that rather hard to believe ..

I don't know why, but I think you might be surprised to find I've played a Mystic (not a mystic knight, just a mystic) in my last rifts game. I probably played him for about a year before he died, and from experience, I tell you mages are very powerful. I was able to at 4rd lvl take out a glitterboy. This while wearing Full EBA armor (taking the penalties) and using spells lvl 4 and below.

1) - My avatar means means nothing, it's an avatar. Hell, in another sight I have an avatar of gothic powerpuff girls and a really cool gif avatar from the tim and erics awesome show....I mean seriously...the best you can come up with is using my avatar to prove a point?

P.S. I know someone is gonna ask "How'd you do it": I used chameleon to sneak up on the GB, which works great because we were in the desert on a hot day. I used climb spell to reach his position (he was high on a wall), CoA to hold him in place...I think I ended up destroying his hand to break the environmental seal, using a gun or bomb or something...then cast Horror or fear (The AoE spell, 2nd lvl) from behind...and as per the spell he has to try and run away from the area...so he has to jump out of the suit. One Telemechanics later, you have a 4rd lvl mystic piloting a GB.

1) - not using anything to prove any point. I mearly find it funny that you have the Emp as your avatar AND ... you think magic is too powerful ..

If you cant laugh at that .. sorry for you ..

but I find it funny and ironic .. no offense bro...

[Dr. Doom III]

Why? Because that's the way the writer wants it.

You want some plausable in game reason?
OK how about this?
Magic is elemental in nature. Someone in a fully environmental vehicle is protected from the elements (at least the same ones that the mage is exposed to) therefore protected from his magic.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Examples?

~ Josh

The book states that if you cast Call Lightning in a robot, with monitor that tell you where something is, and you know its exact location i relation to you, the Lightning which is generated in the SKY and COMES DOWN OUT OF THE CLEAR BLUE SKY, will instead pop up inside the robot killing everyone. Unless you open a window and stick your head out. Because mages are worthless idiots who don't know how to keep lightning from generating in the exact same way it always has every other time they cast the spell. Or how to aim at corodinates, even though those computers give you a better idea of where the enemy is than a peek around a corner, or even blind fire.

[Killer Cyborg]

Blahbitty Blah

100% exactly .. right on ..


And this is something no one seems to understand .. or want to talk about because of thier love of the tech side of things .. Based on JUST the survival ratio of a average mage in this world in or anywhere in North America would want to play a mage of any sort ?

These arguments really do get silly.

Yes, if a mage and a tech warrior face off from 2000ft or more, a tech warrior will have the edge.

Just to interject:
AND....
if the mage didn't do any prep spells to protect himself
if the mage doesn't just pull out his own gun and shoot back
if the mage decides to stand there uselessly instead of retreating, or casting defensive spells (or, again, pulling his own gun and shooting back)

Just like if a mongoose follows a cobra down his hole, the snake has the edge.

You'll find much of combat is less about strength of numbers and arms and more about where and when to fight. This is why, to this day, powerful world nations struggle against terrorism.

[Lenwen]

Blahbitty Blah

100% exactly .. right on ..


And this is something no one seems to understand .. or want to talk about because of thier love of the tech side of things .. Based on JUST the survival ratio of a average mage in this world in or anywhere in North America would want to play a mage of any sort ?

These arguments really do get silly.

Yes, if a mage and a tech warrior face off from 2000ft or more, a tech warrior will have the edge. Just like if a mongoose follows a cobra down his hole, the snake has the edge.

You'll find much of combat is less about strength of numbers and arms and more about where and when to fight. This is why, to this day, powerful world nations struggle against terrorism.

quick interjection about the terrorism thing hehe ..

The only reason powerful world nations struggle against terrorism is not due to that but due to them not wanting to do direct damage to another country for fear of starting a war with that nation and its "Allies" so to speak. Not I repeat NOT because of what you think my friend.

[Killer Cyborg]

The book states that if you cast Call Lightning in a robot, with monitor that tell you where something is, and you know its exact location i relation to you, the Lightning which is generated in the SKY and COMES DOWN OUT OF THE CLEAR BLUE SKY, will instead pop up inside the robot killing everyone. Unless you open a window and stick your head out. Because mages are worthless idiots who don't know how to keep lightning from generating in the exact same way it always has every other time they cast the spell. Or how to aim at corodinates, even though those computers give you a better idea of where the enemy is than a peek around a corner, or even blind fire.

I'm kind of curious to see what book all that, and where.

[Library Ogre]

Mark Hall, you is forgeting the main point: Range

And my main point is that a wizard can, with relatively little effort, make short ranges irrelevant... or, more to your point, make long ranges irrelevant.

Chameleon. Invisibilty: Simple. Cloud of Steam. Simple, low PPE ways to make it so the bad guys can't see you.

As to "high quality EBA having thermographics"... Which ones? A quick check shows that only the CS 6C or 6EX has thermographics built in. The T-12 field medic armor and T-13 field mechanic armors have a massive 4' range with their thermo.

Befuddle have a maximum range of 100 feet (30.5 m) and it dont increase with level. Dont think the mage can pull that trick in a regular fight unless he assumes the risk of being shot 2 to 3 times before he is in range.

Energy field, then befuddle. Great combo, requires only line of sight.

Fear have a maximum range of 100 feet (30.5 m) and affect a area of just 20 feet (6.1 m) diameter and it dont increase with level. The same comment for befuddle applies to this one.

Again, there are good ways to get in close, easily, and

Near Ley Lines and Nexus the range and damage increase ok but that is giving the terrain advantage to the mage and the scenario were to be neutral to both oponents.

So... your version of "Neutral to both combatants" is "Beyond the wizard's possible range"?

Most combat does not happen at the limit of range. Heck, if you're shooting at more than 400m, chances are damn good you're not going to hit anything, and most police shoot-outs are within 10m.

Pistols and EBA can be used by the mage yes but if we go "by the book" the mage would be in trouble if he uses a EBA. Also I dont know of any EBA made of natural materials in any of the books.

Why should the wizard wear EBA? His armor (it can be fury beetle plate or what have you, which will not interfere with his magic) largely exists to save him from the first shot, until he can throw up an appropriate defense. Sure, EBA has its advantages (gasses and the like), but that's also not SOP for a lot of people.

Also the idea was to pit the magic of the mage against the tech of the soldier in a 1 on 1 fight at optimal range. The problem is that the optimal range of a 1st level mage of any kind is almost close combat given the maximum ranges of the majority of spells in the books at 1st level. He is clearly in a disadvantage.

You're defining optimal range, however, to suit your purposes, not to fit the rules as written. The rules as written give LLW's and LLR's light MDC body armor and an energy pistol or rifle. Mystics get light MDC body armor and one weapon for each WP. Shifters have light MDC body armor and an energy rifle. Techno-wizards have light MDC body armor, an energy pistol and an energy rifle. It is far more in the wizard's interests to close below the 800 feet maximum for most pistols, but he's not a sitting duck when he's at that range... assuming one can even get a clear shot for 800 feet.

[Proseksword]

To really see if the game is balanced you need to place both oposing parts on the same level in terms of abilities.

NO. Magic & Technology do not need to be good at the same things. If they were, that would be terribly boring. I'd suggest you go read the first part of the RIFTs Book of Magic again, or the passages in WB:16. There is plenty going for Magic without having to match technology point for point for damage.

[Tiree]

I think an alternate scenario needs to be looked at.

A Mage or Tech Warrior are both asleep in the woods, from inside their tent. An alarm sounds (a blood curdling scream from a friend who just died wakes them up). Who has the advantage?

Both are without Armor, weapons are laying next to them.

People keep talking about how a 'Mage' needs to 'Power up'. But what about a Tech Soldier, he needs to get his Armor on!

The reason I bring up this scenario, this happened in my group about 2 decades ago. I was playing the only 'Mage'. There was a Dog Boy, and various other people within the group. Someone woke up, and noticed 'Bad Guys' coming toward us. My Mage picked up his rifle, and night vision goggles, cast an Energy Field for protection and started shooting. The Dog Boy decided that getting his armor on was less important and proceeded on taking these armed, armored thugs with a Vibro Knife. The rest of the group went and decided getting their Armor on was more important.

[Killer Cyborg]

Spell: Orb of Cold - lvl 3 spell
Range: 200 feet (61 m)
Damage: 3D6 MD plus numbness
PPE: 6

- Good spell but again it lack range if compared to pistol weapons and what
is worst the range is fixed. The numbness is wortless since the target is
probably in a EBA and thus protected from the special effect of the spell.
Only usable in Juicers in my opinion and then only if the Juices is not
wearing one of the EBAs presented in the Juicer Uprising book.

Why is the special effect worthless against EBA? The spell does not say it's worthless against EBA. EBA armor description does not say it has special protection against extreme cold and there are a few EBA armors that specifically say they have special protection against extreme cold, like the Tundra Ranger EBA armor. If all EBA protects against extreme cold then why would Tundra Ranger EBA armor need to put 'thermal insulation' under it's special features? EBA armor protects against normal average cold, extreme cold like getting dipped in a vat of liquid nitrogen, sitting for hours in the frozen tundra at -50 degrees or hit by an M.D.C. cold spell like Orb of Cold is not normal cold that your average EBA insulation and temperature control can cope with. That's why special cold weather gear like the EBA Tundra armor is needed.

For that matter, it doesn't say that it's the cold that induces the numbness. It's pretty common for cold-based spells to have effects that don't actually fit with the effects of being cold. Getting "slowed" or "frozen" in various games, for example- stuff that would actually be quite lethal if you were THAT cold.

[Proseksword]

1) - Its not about teleporting explosive's into armor that makes me think magic is far and away behind tech of any sort. Its the inability of a mage to use any sort of MDC armors with out getting HUGE penalties for it .

The LLW O.C.C. comes with a no-penalty armor now. That's not mentioning anything which is padded, or made with natural materials, of which there are a plethora, or the ability to generate M.D.C. with a single action using Armor of Ithan.

And then being told spells could use up to 3 actions to cast just to armor ones self prior to the battle,

Yep, that's why you should always wear armor, even if you can cast magic.

while your opponant can shoot you from 5+ miles away with out penalty of any kind ..

If your GM let's this happen, then they lack any common sense. Firstly, unless your on the Great Salt Flats, there is no place open enough to allow you to have clear line of sight to a target the size of a man five miles away. You certainly can't do it without some incredible optical enhancements, and unless the mage was setting off fireworks, the tech using opponent wouldn't even know where to look for him.

2) - Negate Mechanic's has a range of touch to 100ft away. Not exactly range enough to cast it Safly.. now is it ?

Yeah, it's risky. It also completely disables whatever device you touch. I'd say that's a big payoff.

3) - Teleportation is also expensive and rare

Only as expensive & rare as your GM decides it is.

And whoa to anyone who has to cast that spell because sitting at 600 ppe to cast by the books no Human mage of any kind can cast the spell because of Energy Sphere's in ability to give the mage more then 3x thier "BASE" PPE amount. There goes that whole plan.

Why do you think all the major kingdoms of magic in RIFTs are clustered on ley lines & nexuses? extra P.P.E.

Again your 90% of the time forced to fight where you stand not becuase its what you choose but rather its where you were found by the enemies.

Your enemies should find it next to impossible to find the magic user in the first place. You can prowl around using Invisibility: Superior forever as long as you don't attack anyone.

Invisibility :Lesser can be seen by anyone with a thermal optic's there goes that plan

Firstly, they have to be looking for it. Secondly, thermal optics are only going to see a heat source, not what it is. Thirdly, walking around in the forest using thermal vision is going to result in you bouncing off trees like a retard because you won't see them because they are cold. Fourthly, thermal sensors can see much shorter distances than normal vision because of heat dissipation.

[quoteInvis:Sup will be negated the instant you start casting there goes that one[/quote]

You can stack Invisiblity Superior & Invisiblity Simple, I'm pretty sure, meaning that they can't see anything, and unless they turn to look in your direction with thermal sensors during the 5 seconds it takes to get off carpet of adhesion or whatever else you're going to strike with, they're going to get hammered.

6) - Its not about being able to go up against a Robot and beat it to a pulp, its about at LEAST being able to go up against EBA and at LEAST being able to survive the first 2 minutes of contact. Which clearly, no casting mage will do if thier inside the range of the weapons of the tech opponant.

A mage has no problem pasting the average dead boy unless he's an utter moron and openly challenges him to a showdown or something ludicrous. A mage can drop a vision obscuring cloud of smoke or other effect on the Dead Boy that makes him between -6 & -10 to strike, dodge, & parry, hit him with carpet of adhesion, and then kill him at leisure. Magic isn't about damage. Magic is about trickery.

I do believe their are all kinds of ways a mage could use thier magic to vengfull ways and powerfully attacking tech opponants. Unfortunatly that is less then 20% of the time tho

Based upon what kind of study?

and in a straight up fight an EBA clad person with even a wilks laser pistol is flat out just TOO much for the average spell casting mage to even tussle with even for a couple of minutes.

Then either your GM is closing off too many options, or you aren't thinking outside the box enough. Mr. Town-guard with his laser pistol and Urban Warrior armor is a walking dead man if pitted against a Ley Line Walker, unless, of course, that Ley Line Walker is retarded and decides to pick a fight with said Town Guard in broad daylight in a wide street with no cover and no spells already prepared.

Magic used to buff up ones self as well as magic used to attack in that same combat scenario is going to leave that mage with zero PPE to effect an escape, unless he was doing such a thing prior to the start of the combat.

What's stopping a Ley Line Walker from buying a TW pistol, using it to attack, and then recharging it on a Ley Line later? It's still magic. Low level Ley Line Walkers should be conserving their P.P.E. for special effects, not wasting it on low-damage attack spells which only become effective once you hit 5th level or so.

Again its not about going up against robots its about being able to survive a couple minute long combat scenario with even the most mundane of eba and tech weapons.

Ley Line Walkers do just fine against your average soldier & his laser rifle unless you start throwing in more arbitrary restrictions like "Has to only use his own spells to attack, not a magic item or TW weapon"

[Lenwen]

And now your playing alotta Spell caster's not how thier written up to be played. Yes they will have those weapons but by and large the Mage shuns those types of weapons I believe this is in both Rue and Book of Magic, course I very well could be wrong.

Since their starting equipment says Energy Rifle or pistol of choice and 7 clips of ammo and an automatic pistol or submachine-gun, TW vehicle, hover vehicle, motorcycle or jet pack, I'd say your take on LLW shunning tech is completely off. In fact KS even says on page 18 of RBOM that few mages reject technology out of hand. Also page 113 of RUE says ley line walkers "have no aversion to using high tech weapons, vehicles or equipment".

Rifts Book of Magic: pg 10
- Wizards should use magic-- duh ( this is the heading from which I am about to quote not a slight twords anyone )
One thing that bugs me about Rifts mages is that it seems alot of the time, maybe even the majority, mages who are off adventuring are better off relying on tech then thier magic, or there doesn't seem to be much reason to use magic.

-"Hm. I can fire Bolt that guy eight times completly depleting my PPE, or I can shoot him with my gun and only use my ammunition. Both do the same damage and the gun can shoot twice as far (or more likely, LOTS more then that) Guess I'll use my gun"

Rifts Book of Magic: pg 11
- Mages are convinced magic IS superior. Remember it. ( again the heading from which I am about to quote. not my words dont want people saying I am acting any way this or that .. )
- Well, If I absolutly must fight directly...
- This may or may not happen with a lot of players playing spell casters. but it should
- Sure, Mages can and will use technology, they are smart guys (and gals), but generally speaking, they strongly prefer to rely on magic whenever possible.

Two quotes directly from the book which tells me that mages who go around slinging out thier guns first and formost when the pewp hits the fan are obviously .. not .. being played as thier supposed to be played ... aka .. outta character.

And the spell caster is said to not "Rely" upon them and shuns them in favor of thier own magic.

Again not supported by the starting equipment of the LLW who gets lots of high tech weapons and a vehicle like a hover cycle or jet pack. Also again Kevin's own words say most mages do not shun tech as I quoted above.

Again, see the above responce.

Why would a Tech warrior be outta his armor in the wilderness or on patrols ?

As someone who's actually had to wear armor that crap his hot and heavy. It's not fun to sleep in and you have to take it off at least when you wash and likely take some parts off to use the bathroom. I also believe KS put some rule somewhere about wearing armor all the time.

Again, why would that Tech opponant be outside his armor sleeping on the ground ?

This is a role playing game my friend, we can not there for use the armor we are issued from either your old unit or my old armor I had to test for several months called the Land Warrior system back when I was in the 82'nd.

You is forgeting the fact that by the book (and siembieda opinion) mages will always go for their magic as the main offensive/defensive capabilities and not the EBA they "normally" (siembieda words) dont use or the Rifles that again they normally dont use.

Where does it say that?

Rifts Book of Magic pg 10.
- Wizards should use magic -- duh ( again not my words, the words of the heading from which I am about to quote)
- If you ask me a mage's first thought of recourse or action in almost any situation should be to use thier magic, or to think how they can use it to deal with the situation.
( Later on down the page Kevin Siembieda himself actually states this)
- Hugh's exactly right.

Basically the creator of the system states a mage SHOULD instinctivly reach for his magic rather then any tech means of support by the definition of the character.

Also the idea was to pit the magic of the mage against the tech of the soldier in a 1 on 1 fight at optimal range. The problem is that the optimal range of a 1st level mage of any kind is almost close combat given the maximum ranges of the majority of spells in the books at 1st level. He is clearly in a disadvantage.

Why? The mage throws up some protective spells, whips out his JA-12(LLW says they get an energy rifle or pistol of the player's choice) and goes to town. That's 1D6X10+10 M.D.C. at a 4000 foot range.

Again your not playing the Class as it is supposed to be played. Again, see my responce to this above this answer.

Combined with the extreamly limited range for all but maby 2 or 3 spells in all lvls ( Common spells wise ) he further hamstrings the power of spells and widens the massive difference from Tech to magic based abilities in favor of the Tech side.

Yep range can be an issue that's why mages have to play smart and choose terrain wisely and use spells wisely to overcome the range issue.

Exactly. But even then range is still an issue anyway you look at it and its magnified for a low lvl 1-5 lvl mage who has to be at LEAST within 100ft to use the majority of his spells ( with line of sight no less ) which spells out a huge chance of none survivability when you think about it against a tech laden opponant.

There in lies one of the fundemental problems of the magic system. By the creator saying how hard it is to find anyone willling to share even the most basic of offensive spells he has simply hamstringed one of the very reasons to be a mage at all ..

Please only lvl 10+ spells are listed as rare to purchase. Anything else can be bought at any magic city for the right price. Since tech is equally expensive I don't see how the price of spells makes them worse than tech. Plus nearly every mage gets to intuitively learn spells for free, not many tech opponents get to intuitively create a suit of PA or a giant robot for free...

The only tech that costs over 500,000 are PA's, Robots, vehicles, and extreamly limited weapons, ( not counting techno-wizard items)
That is the "AVERAGE" cost of lvl 10+ spells .. ( thats IF you can even find them ).

And btw, when does the mage get the ability to create a suit of Powered Armor or a Giant Robot for free ?

Combined with the way most "Spell casting" mages are supposed to "Shun" most tech items furthers that tech/magic gap even further..

I have quoted pages from 2 books where KS states this is not true and that most mages embrace technology. This is clearly shown in the LLW description and in their starting equipment

No what you HAVE shown is that THAT particular mage does CARRY the tech weapons, in the above responce I quoted directly from Book of Magic, it goes into detail and explains that mages do in fact ( every type) actually SHOULD instinctfully not be reaching for firearms, but rather be thinking how best to use thier magic, in nearly every situation.

To which Kevin Siembieda himself said that was exactly right.

First if we talk about any kind of mage character that is not a Ley Line Walker then yes a mage casting a 10th level spell would have to be at 10th level or more but Ley Line mages and the kind like then dont need to be high level to cast any spell.

Really because the Techno Wizard can learn nearly any spell at any level. They also start off with some really cool spells at lvl 1 like Impervious to Energy.

Funny thing, Techno-Wizards, they cant seem to "Cast" magic that well .. Everything is "Halfed" for them when "attempting" to cast through traditional words, and gestures, rather then using an item to "Focus" thier magic.

[Lenwen]

while your opponant can shoot you from 5+ miles away with out penalty of any kind ..

If your GM let's this happen, then they lack any common sense. Firstly, unless your on the Great Salt Flats, there is no place open enough to allow you to have clear line of sight to a target the size of a man five miles away. You certainly can't do it without some incredible optical enhancements, and unless the mage was setting off fireworks, the tech using opponent wouldn't even know where to look for him.

Straifing runs by aircraft could spot the enemies, get at distance an launch missles. Easily achieving the above scenario.

2) - Negate Mechanic's has a range of touch to 100ft away. Not exactly range enough to cast it Safly.. now is it ?

Yeah, it's risky. It also completely disables whatever device you touch. I'd say that's a big payoff.

Thats just it, it IS a big payoff for all of 1 melee round or 15 seconds, after which what ever you just negated mechanic's on knows your there, and has the optic's to see you no matter what spell you try to hide with, and if your that close.

Your toast.

Invisibility :Lesser can be seen by anyone with a thermal optic's there goes that plan

Firstly, they have to be looking for it. Secondly, thermal optics are only going to see a heat source, not what it is. Thirdly, walking around in the forest using thermal vision is going to result in you bouncing off trees like a retard because you won't see them because they are cold. Fourthly, thermal sensors can see much shorter distances than normal vision because of heat dissipation.

First, no they do not "HAVE" to be looking for it. Even a quick glance will reveal the character.

Secondly, Wrong.. Thermal optic's ( Ive had the chance to play with in the 82'nd) and they do in fact show off general shapes of the heat sources, you will be able to distinguish between an animal and a man or any other being that gives off heat.

Thirdly, that cold enviorment is going to give up that warm blooded character faster then anything else could.

Again its not about going up against robots its about being able to survive a couple minute long combat scenario with even the most mundane of eba and tech weapons.

Ley Line Walkers do just fine against your average soldier & his laser rifle unless you start throwing in more arbitrary restrictions like "Has to only use his own spells to attack, not a magic item or TW weapon"

Because as per each character's description, giving that mage a techno- wizard weapon is not in the write up.

You have already tipped the scales by giving that mage a techno-wizard weapon. That is if your trying to be arbitrary.

[Blight]

Why would a Tech warrior be outta his armor in the wilderness or on patrols ?

On a short two hour patrol he wouldn't, unless he was new. On a long patrol they would be taking that helmet off as soon as they stopped for a break. Even if that armor is air conditioned, that helmet would be claustrophobic. I don't know how many times i ended up saying "get that pot back on your head" during my squads patrols, but as the old saying goes if i had a nickel. But even i wanted to take my Kevlar off and just feel the breeze.

[Shark_Force]

so your starting scenario to prove that mages need powering up is to give the tech side a wing of aircraft doing a strafing run on a single mage, then getting bombarded by long range missiles?

again, how are these aircraft spotting the caster? is he sitting on a bare hilltop casting a giant illusion of an arrow pointing at him with the words "shoot me please" written beside it in giant letters?

[Tiree]

I think I would drive myself insane if I did not take off my armor at least once in a week. But we are not talking the average 'Coalition' Soldier who has a nice warm cot to go back to at base. We are talking two PC's, one being magical while the other is not.

Maybe it isn't a Soldier, but an Operator? Or a Rogue Scientist or Cyber-Doc? All of these other OCC's are non-magical and have the same advantage (maybe not the same training).

I would expect Soldier's and Travelers who are out on their own, to set up camp and sleep through the night. Armor is heavy, can be uncomfortable, and overall sleeping is sometimes a bit more important than having a full suit of Armor on at a moment's notice.

But the situation could be at a more 'Civilized' location, what about a Hotel? Do you sleep in a full set of Armor while in your private hotel room? I probably would if it is a dive of a hotel, with roaches crawling over everything. I think the problem is, to think that people wear armor 100% of the time. Heck even in my Robotech Game, the only time people wear Armor is either a ) when they are expecting a fight, or b ) when they are looking for a fight.

[Killer Cyborg]

- Sure, Mages can and will use technology, they are smart guys (and gals), but generally speaking, they strongly prefer to rely on magic whenever possible.

Yes, they strongly prefer to rely on magic.
But that's a preference, not a mandate; they can and do use tech freely, as the book quotes you provided say.

Now zoom in on the rest of the sentence, the part about "whenever possible."
When you have an enemy blasting away at you from beyond the range of your spells, is it possible for you to rely on magic to take him down?
If you're trying to fight an enemy that has thermo optics trained on you, is it possible for you to rely on Invisibility to avoid getting shot?
NO.

All the scenarios you present net out as the same thing: mages attempting to use magic in situations where it is NOT possible to rely on it.
Which means that you are going directly against the official description of how mages usually behave.

[Proseksword]

Straifing runs by aircraft could spot the enemies, get at distance an launch missles. Easily achieving the above scenario.

The only way an aircraft is going to spot you is if you are walking around in the open, in which case, that's the fault of the LLW, not the rules.

Thats just it, it IS a big payoff for all of 1 melee round or 15 seconds, after which what ever you just negated mechanic's on knows your there, and has the optic's to see you no matter what spell you try to hide with, and if your that close.

What did you do with the rest of your four actions while his gun was jammed? Dance a jig?

First, no they do not "HAVE" to be looking for it. Even a quick glance will reveal the character.

You have to deliberately activate your thermal optics, which is not normally what people use to see. Ergo, you have to be deliberately looking for invisible people using thermal optics. This will also prevent you from being able to see cooler objects clearly.

Secondly, Wrong.. Thermal optic's ( Ive had the chance to play with in the 82'nd) and they do in fact show off general shapes of the heat sources, you will be able to distinguish between an animal and a man or any other being that gives off heat.

But what kind of man is it? What is he holding? You can't really tell details like that with thermal vision.

Thirdly, that cold enviorment is going to give up that warm blooded character faster then anything else could.

If you were actually reading what I was saying, you'd know what I was saying was that using thermal optics prevents you from seeing cold terrain features, not the target, which would be obvious. Sure, the mage would stick out like a sore thumb at close range, but you'll trip right over the rock in front of you. Of course, this is a moot point, because I notice now that I look that thermal optics are not listed as a standard sensor for EBA, power armor or giant robots! Lucky you! It turns out, the average grunt doesn't have a prayer of seeing your mage!

Because as per each character's description, giving that mage a techno- wizard weapon is not in the write up.

You have already tipped the scales by giving that mage a techno-wizard weapon. That is if your trying to be arbitrary.

The O.C.C. description says "Ley Line Walkers like Techno-Wizard items and can use them well" and then goes on to list a whole host of TW items they start with. I'd say a TW weapon is pretty dang ordinary.

[Lenwen]

- Sure, Mages can and will use technology, they are smart guys (and gals), but generally speaking, they strongly prefer to rely on magic whenever possible.

Yes, they strongly prefer to rely on magic.
But that's a preference, not a mandate; they can and do use tech freely, as the book quotes you provided say.

Now zoom in on the rest of the sentence, the part about "whenever possible."
When you have an enemy blasting away at you from beyond the range of your spells, is it possible for you to rely on magic to take him down?
If you're trying to fight an enemy that has thermo optics trained on you, is it possible for you to rely on Invisibility to avoid getting shot?
NO.

All the scenarios you present net out as the same thing: mages attempting to use magic in situations where it is NOT possible to rely on it.
Which means that you are going directly against the official description of how mages usually behave.

Well said KC. I see exactly what you mean as well. You got me on that for sure. I am finished with this thread. Have fun peeps.

[Lenwen]

Straifing runs by aircraft could spot the enemies, get at distance an launch missles. Easily achieving the above scenario.

The only way an aircraft is going to spot you is if you are walking around in the open, in which case, that's the fault of the LLW, not the rules.

Thats just it, it IS a big payoff for all of 1 melee round or 15 seconds, after which what ever you just negated mechanic's on knows your there, and has the optic's to see you no matter what spell you try to hide with, and if your that close.

What did you do with the rest of your four actions while his gun was jammed? Dance a jig?

First, no they do not "HAVE" to be looking for it. Even a quick glance will reveal the character.

You have to deliberately activate your thermal optics, which is not normally what people use to see. Ergo, you have to be deliberately looking for invisible people using thermal optics. This will also prevent you from being able to see cooler objects clearly.

Secondly, Wrong.. Thermal optic's ( Ive had the chance to play with in the 82'nd) and they do in fact show off general shapes of the heat sources, you will be able to distinguish between an animal and a man or any other being that gives off heat.

But what kind of man is it? What is he holding? You can't really tell details like that with thermal vision.

Thirdly, that cold enviorment is going to give up that warm blooded character faster then anything else could.

If you were actually reading what I was saying, you'd know what I was saying was that using thermal optics prevents you from seeing cold terrain features, not the target, which would be obvious. Sure, the mage would stick out like a sore thumb at close range, but you'll trip right over the rock in front of you. Of course, this is a moot point, because I notice now that I look that thermal optics are not listed as a standard sensor for EBA, power armor or giant robots! Lucky you! It turns out, the average grunt doesn't have a prayer of seeing your mage!

Because as per each character's description, giving that mage a techno- wizard weapon is not in the write up.

You have already tipped the scales by giving that mage a techno-wizard weapon. That is if your trying to be arbitrary.

The O.C.C. description says "Ley Line Walkers like Techno-Wizard items and can use them well" and then goes on to list a whole host of TW items they start with. I'd say a TW weapon is pretty dang ordinary.

Thermal Optics grant a view of your surrounding area according to the heat signature's in the surrounding area. IT does not grant Detailed vision, but it gives you good enough detail from heat emnations to know if that is a human holding a tech based rifle, handgun, or anything of that nature. I've seen this at first hand.

And yes you can see that rock in front of you because rocks tend to be cooler then the surrounding enviorment they themselves are in or they tend to be hotter, dependent upon the enviorment in a desert thier hotter in a rain forrest thier cooler. Again I've personally seen this first hand I know this for a fact. Unless its been changed in Rifts rpg, its the same thing.

And for the LLW and the "Starting" Techno-Wizard items ..

Weapons will include a survival knife, hand axe, automatic pistol, OR submachine gun, (Players choice), energy pistol OR rifle, and extra clips of ammunition.
The vehicle of choice is usually a Techno-Wizard device or a hover vehicle or motorcycle or jet pack.

No where in the standard equipment does it say they get starting a techno-wizard weapon.

If you wish to continue this debat please feel free to PM me. As I am now finished with this thread. Thanks for the fun an I look forword to your PM should you want to debat this topic further.

[Lenwen]

I am finished with this thread. Have fun peeps.

Not entertainment per se, but entertaining nonetheless.

Sorry Len, just found that incredibly funny.

No worries guy, I spoke out of turn an now even have replied to you haha I am really done with this thread .. unless some one busts out Yo mama jokes

[Vrykolas2k]

Yes, I found the best way to be immune to many psionics and magic is to take a box, duct-tape it, and affix wheels and an oxygen tank... it is then an environmentally sealed vehicle, and easily replaced if destroyed... not easily done, since if someone shoots it, all you have to do is apply more duct tape...

[Vrykolas2k]

Dont know about you but geting range, damage/effect and duration of any of the spells described above cut by 40% is no walk in the park to me. Even your example would be ridiculous because Armor of Ithan have a durantion of 1 minute per level and the effect would be reduced to 6 MD of protection for two melee rounds!!

And that 6 more for 2 melee rounds per level of experience...AT WORST. I must caps that because, there is just as much chance (20) that it will not be affected at all as it will have the worst effect. In an armor of Ithan example...there's a 40% chance nothing will happen (you can't reduce range any more than touch) and if you're a stickler for the rules...there's a 60% chance AoI will be unaffected, because I believe it states "Damage is reduced by 1D4x10%"..and AoI does not do damage.

P.S. I also forgot it costs the mage 20% more PPE to cast...so for AoI instead of 10PPE...it's now 12.

At higher levels, a mage will find armor to be more of a hamper. 20% more PPE higher level spells will be deadly. But at that point, he can cast Invs. superior, magic door, teleport: superior, Giant, Invul., Invul. to energy...

You is forgeting the fact that by the book (and siembieda opinion) mages will always go for their magic as the main offensive/defensive capabilities and not the EBA they "normally" (siembieda words) dont use or the Rifles that again they normally dont use.

Also the scenario is no to decide who is better with a rifle or pistol. Its to pit Magic vs Tech in actual combat with both sides at 1st level.

I'm not forgetting anything. I wasn't bringing "upbrining" into this, because this isn't a mage vs warrior topic, and as such, magic can be used incredibly effective with technology even without TW. This aspect HAS to be taken into concideration to get full effect of just how powerful magic can be. As it stands a mage is just as good at shooting hiding and other things as tech

And I was wrong earlier...I don't agree with Kevin...magic is still far too powerful.

Sorry, but the magic is too powerful thing some people throw around is just a good joke.

[runebeo]

[/quote]
Mages are about fighting smarter not harder. If all you are looking at is the numbers of straight damage and whatnot- as opposed to looking at how to best apply the skills and spells provided, then chances are you shouldn't play a mage. Quit whining and roll something else. There is no small amount of people who play them WELL who can attest to the fact that they are EXTREMELY powerful, you just have to play smart.[/quote]


I so agree! Mages that use their resources to their fullest can a force to be reckon with. Getting back to armor making immune to most spells, while its cannon a GM can still tweak some spells to at least partially effect the guy inside. We had a home brewed spell called Vertigo that induced head spinning, balance issues and a great chance of vomiting to who ever sees the spells hypnotic lights, their was also a 20% chance of inducing epileptic seizures. If players want to invent some spells to fight power armors I say go for it, but make them less physical and more mental type of attacks.

[rbm10101]

Ok Here is my take on the original question

Re: Why does"Enviormental" stop magic ?

The most current book I have access to is Ultimate Rifter - please pick up your copy and turn to page 187 Now peruse the page until you see LINE OF SIGHT
This means the spell caster must be able to see the person or target area he hopes to affect with his magic. The target/victim must be withhin HIS line of vision. If the target is not seen, is totally obscured by obstacles, darkness, invisibility, or just not visible ( around the corner , out of visual range , etc ) the spell caster cannot cast his spell on him. Only an area effect spell can be cast to blanket an area and affect everyone within that area wether they are seen or not.

Seems to me that from the above you cant firebolt a person inside a suit of armor since you can not see them. You can however firebolt the armor they are wearing. You can not firebolt a pilot of robot power armor since you can not see them. Line of sight is line of sight is line of sight.

Now turn to page 188 of the Ultimate edition of Rifts book and peruse to Wearing Body Armor. Read and repeat until you understand.

Scroll down until you find Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot. Read and repeat until you understand.

Now i am seeing over and over the argument of magic is better or tech is better. In my opinion both are better depending on how the character is played, there actions, role playing etc. Play whatever you find to be fun and entertaining to you. I dont see this argument going anyway so just make a ley line walker and a headhunter and have a third person DM a fight between both 10 times and see which is better. Other wise the less filling taste great argument will go nowhere. Be sure to use every tool you have though ( why would you start with equipment and not be permitted to use it - as some people are thinking that a LLW would not use a pistol - why the heck does he start with it then - why did he waste time learning to use any Weapons if he cant use them ? Be sure to use Cover and terrain to your advantage. Use everything at your disposal.

[rbm10101]

You do have line of site for someone wearing body armor. You can see them.

Your firebolt analogy is flawed. It does not hit the person inside the suit because the suit is in the way. Much like if a naked person was standing on the other side of a crystal clear pane of glass, the Firebolt would hit the glass not the person.

Also some armors are listed as not having face plates or eye ports. They are listed as using indirect video feed so as to minimize the use of some magic or psionic attacks. That would suggest that armors without this sensory sealed environment and using indirect video feeds would be susceptible to the same magics and psionics.

I never said it could.
Please reread my post it plainly states the ARMOR gets hit. Do not put words in my mouth or twist my words - for a spell to BYPASS the armor and hit the person inside it needs to state it in the text ( for example - Phase beamers can bypass armor and they plainly state they can in the description of the weapon ) . I will re-explain - fire bolt will hit the outermost layer of the first thing it touches and attempt to burn into it. it will NOT roast a person inside armor leaving a nice clean armor. REREAD the section on magic - i even quoted the book and pages it is on.

[Killer Cyborg]

Please reread my post it plainly states the ARMOR gets hit. Do not put words in my mouth or twist my words - for a spell to BYPASS the armor and hit the person inside it needs to state it in the text ( for example - Phase beamers can bypass armor and they plainly state they can in the description of the weapon ) . I will reexplain - fire bolt will hit the outermost layer of the first thing it touch and attempt to burn into it. it will NOT roast a person inside armor leaving a nice clean armor. REREAD the section on magic - i even quoted the book and pages it is on.

I read them and am not putting words in your mouth. You specifically stated that the line of site rules prevent someone in armor from being cast on and then used firebolt as an example of how line of site prevents casting the spell inside the armor.

The spell is not cast inside the armor due to line of site, it is not cast inside the armor because it is direct spell that physically crosses space between the mage and his target, like a bullet. Therefore the spell will be stopped by anything in it's path whether it be a pane of glass or a suit of armor.

By your reasoning the line of site spell would not work on someone in clothes and wearing a mask, which is simply not true.

No, by his reasoning you don't have line-of-sight to a person's naked chest when they have a shirt on, therefore you can't firebolt their naked chest.
On the other hand, you DO have line-of-sight to their shirt, and can firebolt that quite easily, which will still kill the guy wearing it.

I believe that he is also using Fire Bolt as an example of how he believes most spells to work; they're almost all "direct spells that physically crosses space between the mage and his target."
Which would be why few of them work through walls, or even windows.
Remember how mages have to stick their torso out of a vehicle to target anybody outside?

[rbm10101]

sigh
re-read my post again - pick up a Ultimate Rifts book and re-read the section on magic you will see that I quoted the book word for word in the top section of my original post.
the bold italics underlined text is on page 187 of the Ultimate Rifter describing LINE OF SIGHT
This means the spell caster must be able to see the person or target area he hopes to affect with his magic. The target/victim must be withhin HIS line of vision. If the target is not seen, is totally obscured by obstacles, darkness, invisibility, or just not visible ( around the corner , out of visual range , etc ) the spell caster cannot cast his spell on him. Only an area effect spell can be cast to blanket an area and affect everyone within that area wether they are seen or not.
Spells are not indirect they originate from the spell caster and travel in a STRAIGHT LINE. They hit the FIRST obstacle in that line and attempt to damage it. If the damage of the spell is not enough to destroy bypass that item then anything along the spells LINE path BEHIND that obstacle is NOT hurt.

You do NOT have line of sight on a person completely hidden inside of a suit of Environmental armor or around a corner, or hidden by darkness, smoke gas, ANY OBSTRUCTION THAT PREVENTS YOU FROM SEEING THEM. You do however have line of sight on there armor(, the wall of the building that is the corner, the ground around the darkness or smoke gas) Attack them there armor will absorb( the wall that is the corner, etc etc ) the attack and when it no longer can and only then will the person inside be hurt.

DMG SPELLS DO NOT BYPASS NORMAL NON-ENVIRO ARMOR Either you still have to do dmg the same way as everyone else to kill the target. YOU CAN CAST SAY A SLEEP SPELL ON THEM or a AREA OF EFFECT spell like carpet of adhesion on the ground below them since the target area is the ground and not them.

The first weapon that comes to mind that bypasses armor is a PHASE world weapon called a phase beamer and it is stopped by FORCE FIELDS and magical barriers.

[rbm10101]

I believe that he is also using Fire Bolt as an example of how he believes most spells to work; they're almost all "direct spells that physically crosses space between the mage and his target."
Which would be why few of them work through walls, or even windows.
Remember how mages have to stick their torso out of a vehicle to target anybody outside?

Thanks Cyborg you hit the nail on the head with that post

[Shark_Force]

Now i am seeing over and over the argument of magic is better or tech is better. In my opinion both are better depending on how the character is played, there actions, role playing etc. Play whatever you find to be fun and entertaining to you. I dont see this argument going anyway so just make a ley line walker and a headhunter and have a third person DM a fight between both 10 times and see which is better. Other wise the less filling taste great argument will go nowhere. Be sure to use every tool you have though ( why would you start with equipment and not be permitted to use it - as some people are thinking that a LLW would not use a pistol - why the heck does he start with it then - why did he waste time learning to use any Weapons if he cant use them ? Be sure to use Cover and terrain to your advantage. Use everything at your disposal.

this is in my opinion an absolutely terrible testing method.

a more reasonable one would be to choose a series of 10 (or some other arbitrary number, but should be reasonably large) challenges (which may or may not be battles) with limited resupplying in between each battle, with each battle being something different. the game is not about "my robot pilot can beat up your ley line walker" anyways, so why bother testing that? how about we test something that is actually supposed to be how the game is designed... probably the best test i can think of is to attempt to simulate two groups, one with a magic class (or more than one, but not necessarily all) and the other with an equal number of characters, but all tech-based. compare how they handle when you put them through that series of 10 challenges. find out which group consistently does better. whichever group deals with the challenges best, will show a better example of what these two archetypes bring to the table as far as actual gameplay is concerned (i would say the *best* way is to have actual gameplay using the same scenarios, including as large a variety of scenarios as possible)

i expect that what will be seen is that the tech types can expend an absolutely unsustainable amount of resources to solve combat really easily, and can handle other encounter types with reasonable ease. the group with magic will likely show a much more sustainable expenditure of resources, quite likely a bit more versatility, but will likely have a more difficult time defeating combat encounters, since they simply can't match the resource expenditure of the technological-based types in most cases (although eventually scrolls, talismans, etc can definitely allow them to store up these resources and potentially match the expenditures also, i don't think the goal is to show off what a level 10 magic-based class can do so much as it is to compare more average members of each class... levels should probably range from 1-4, i would say)

because really, putting those 2 OCCs against each other is just silly. how often do you play an actual game of rifts and get into 1 on 1 duels between 2 characters, one of whom is tech-based and the other magic-based? that just isn't really representative of the majority of games out there, i suspect.

basically, a ley line walker may not be able to fire off a volley of 10 short range plasma warhead missiles to one-shot a coalition 'bot, but he can power up a TW weapon day after day after day, cast armor of ithan for more cumulative MDC stretching out the lifespan of his (and other's) armor, etc without having to find a place that even sells replacement missiles or repairs power armor, let alone finding a way to actually pay for it all. if you have a steady supply chain, an arbitrarily large amount of resources, and are facing primarily challenges that can be dealt with by making them explode, then tech will really shine in a way that magic has a hard time matching though; this is why the coalition can do so well with their army. blow up a skull walker? no problem, they've got another 3 in the assembly line, waiting to get shipped out. kill a platoon of soldiers? no problem, they can train a new platoon in a few weeks, or replace them with skelebots. cut off their supply lines, though, and watch them crumble...

[rbm10101]

Edited
my example was for damaging spells - i even mentioned sleep or carpet of adhesion working

you cant firebolt inside the armor it doesnt work that way

You can cast an illusion and the person in armor will see it

you can blur yourself and the person in armor will see a blurred you

You can cast blinding flash and he will see it ( lets hope he bionic cybernetic or robotic eyes )

You can cast cloud of smoke and he will see a cloud of smoke possibly impairing his vision

You can cast death trance and he will think you are dead IE NO PULSE etc

you can fireball firebolt him lightning bolt him plug in any of the dmging spells and it will affect what he is wearing first then him, for the casters sake lets hope he is wearing a sdc wife beater and you are doing MDC so it burns thru the shirt then him and continues on

Edited

[dark brandon]

Sorry, but the magic is too powerful thing some people throw around is just a good joke.

To each his own.

Problem is, everyone who thinks magic is too weak simply want stupid magic. They want the magic that instant kills anyone. They want a spell that will allow a mage to go toe-to-toe with a SAMAS. Too afraid or unable to think they simply want "scry and die" spells. They want one spell at level one that does as much damage as a rifle...and they want it to get stronger.

If you want stupid magic...that's fine...like I said, to each his own. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play Gandolf. I'm sure it's a lot of fun. I like to play gandolf too. That's why I play D&D. Now there's some stupid magic.

I think it's interesting. In D&D mages need high intellect, but have stupid strong spells, not much insight or planning needed for them. Palladium mages on the other hand need a high PE (a physical attribute) (where their PPE is based on)...yet to get the most out of them you have to use some planning and thinking....weird.

[rbm10101]

no i was going to use babblefish to rewrite the post in your native tongue

use a laser in rifts to roast a target you cant see because he is out of line of sight. Many RPGs have line of sight in rules
if you cant see your target you cant affect him with line of sight attacks

he is behind a wall - lob a grenade

he is around a corner - use some advanced sensory abilities and shoot thru the wall ( if you can do enough damage to even get thru the wall that is )

He is inside a vehicle - destroy the vehicle until you can see him ( him counts as the person wearing armor ) then destroy his armor then destroy him

ALL OF THE ABOVE EXAMPLES ASSUMES YOU ARE USING DAMAGING ATTACKS

now lets use non damaging attacks to get to him or so you can see him

he is behind a wall - levitate up so you can see him and use a damaging attack or spell on him
he is behind a wall - use cloud of smoke up to 90 feet away on a 30x30x30 area in front of the wall ) so he cant see you and has to move to a new position

He is around a corner - cast carpet of adhesion or magic net at the edge of the corner and PRAY you get him in the AREA of the spell
He is around a corner - cast shadow meld on the shadow created by the wall and move to wear you can see him - blast away

He is in a vehicle - use carpet of adhesion on the ground in front of the vehicle then on the outside part of the vehicle
he will get out and get stuck on the outside of the vehicle



In the 3 pages of post on this topic i have seen people ask why would a target the mage is attacking with a spell be immune if the target was in armor and THAT is the topic that I was discussing. THE target in EBA is NOT IMMUNE. He will not take damage from MDC spells until the obstacle ( his armor, force field , etc ) goes down. EBA does not make you immune to for example ( carpet of adhesion, cloud of smoke, cloud of darkness, multiple image, shadow meld , fools gold , magic net, invisibility : lesser, heavy breathing, FEAR( horror factor 16), lantern light etc etc etc. There are many many other spells and I only looked at a few of the spells available.

Many spells limit who they will work on for exampe in there description BLIND, paralysis lesser, and many other spells specifically states who it does not work on - anyone in EBA being one of them,

I have also seen people ask in this discussion why a mage in EBA would not be able to cast or would cast at reduced ability in EBA and that is NOT the question i was addressing

Lobo quoted
rbm10101 wrote:
Seems to me that from the above you cant firebolt a person inside a suit of armor since you can not see them. You can however firebolt the armor they are wearing. You can not firebolt a pilot of robot power armor since you can not see them. Line of sight is line of sight is line of sight.Yet it doesn't support that theory. The reason the person inside is not roasted has nothing to do with line of sight, it is simply that the armor is a physical spell that is stopped by the armor.

Line of sight is not effected by body armor nor most power armor. You can see the person. Sometimes you can even see the color of their eyes while in Environmental body armor. It has no effect on line of sight for spell casting purposes.

LINE OF SIGHT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. You can not see the person inside only his armor and that is why his armor is hit first by DAMAGING spells.

For example i can see the pilot of that power armor is wearing a clear visor over his eyes I should be able to cast on his eyes with my firebolt ? right ? WRONG because the firebolt will hit his visor before it him

Firebolt gets a +4 tpo strike and the save is a dodge. I would allow a called shot on the visor with normal penalties and if the damage was enough to get thru the visor the person inside would take damage

hey that pilot of power armor has a clear visor over his eyes can i blinding flash him ? YES but hope he doesnt have cybernetic or bionic eyes ( he also gets a save )

Hey that headhunter in EBA can I blinding flash him ? yes but hope he doesnt have cybernetic or bionic eyes
I would argue that a spell with a saving throw of DODGE or save standard could not do a called shot on a target in NON EBA without a helmut. If the spell required a to hit roll perhaps then you could do a called shot on the naked head and pulp it like a watermelon when it meets a railgun round.
Lobo play however you want but every single Rifts gaming group I have been a pc or DM in has followed the book pretty much 100% otherwise things get a little unbalanced ok a lot unbalanced.

[Lenwen]

Sorry, but the magic is too powerful thing some people throw around is just a good joke.

To each his own.

Problem is, everyone who thinks magic is too weak simply want stupid magic. They want the magic that instant kills anyone.

I am some one who thinks Magic is too weak .. I simply have adapted lvls 1-6 offensive spells to be on the same range of pistols .. ( per lvl ) And The higher offensive spells 7+ to be on par with Rifles .. ( again per lvl ) there by forgoing any of the real problems I see with "Combat" magic.

My only grip is that magic has a stupidly limited range .. for its spells all spells .. its magic for gawds sake people .. hello ... So in my games .. I do what I stated .. I extend the ranges of ALL spells ..

And I do not need as some one said up above .. "Stupid Magic" or .. "Instant Kills anyone" types of magic ..

Extended range on most if not all spells and extended durations on spells and the magic system is fixed .. Not even KS himself plays the game of Rifts (magic system) as it is presented .. which is rather .. funny in an of itself ..

[Shark_Force]

Sorry, but the magic is too powerful thing some people throw around is just a good joke.

To each his own.

Problem is, everyone who thinks magic is too weak simply want stupid magic. They want the magic that instant kills anyone.

I am some one who thinks Magic is too weak .. I simply have adapted lvls 1-6 offensive spells to be on the same range of pistols .. ( per lvl ) And The higher offensive spells 7+ to be on par with Rifles .. ( again per lvl ) there by forgoing any of the real problems I see with "Combat" magic.

My only grip is that magic has a stupidly limited range .. for its spells all spells .. its magic for gawds sake people .. hello ... So in my games .. I do what I stated .. I extend the ranges of ALL spells ..

And I do not need as some one said up above .. "Stupid Magic" or .. "Instant Kills anyone" types of magic ..

Extended range on most if not all spells and extended durations on spells and the magic system is fixed .. Not even KS himself plays the game of Rifts (magic system) as it is presented .. which is rather .. funny in an of itself ..

1) not good at direct damage is not the same thing as not good. the best combat spells in rifts are not the damaging ones. many of the best spells are not even combat spells at all.
2) of course nobody plays it the way it's written. it's impossible to cover every scenario possible. if the rulebooks were enough to fill the entire library of congress without repeating anything, you couldn't possibly cover everything. thusly, everyone makes stuff up. this isn't some kind of inherent flaw in the rules; the fact that you put whatever you want wherever you want is a feature of pen and paper RPGs. the fact that you can take a rule presented that wasn't ever intended to cover the specific exact scenario you're in is not a "problem". don't read too much into kevin siembieda playing the game slightly different from the rules. the rules are by nature guidelines. they weren't meant to cover every single situation, and if someone tried they'd just go crazy. there's a big difference between "we houserule to cover corner cases and unforeseen implications of the rules" and "we've completely changed direct damage magic spells". i rather suspect kevin is closer to the first than to the second, but as neither of us are in kevin's games, and i suspect strongly you don't watch them (and i know i don't) we can't draw any firm conclusions from his games.

[Lenwen]

My only grip is that magic has a stupidly limited range .. for its spells all spells .. its magic for gawds sake people .. hello ... So in my games .. I do what I stated .. I extend the ranges of ALL spells ..

Psionics has the same problem with range only usually a lot worse.

Psionics do not take Several "Actions" to do in combat situations .. for any combat psionic in the game .. there for it is actually a better utility ability then magic itself is ..

I even overcame the range issue and downed a Samas that was flying above my mage at 4000 feet and trying to blast my mage with his rail gun.

Then you used a house rule of some kind.

It's your game if you want to greatly extend ranges so that their spells are on par with tech that's cool but I think instead of playing with such a major balance issue you might want to try the option of encouraging your players to think outside the box and then reward them handsomely with XP/loot when they do.

How does .. Extending the range of combat type spells create an "Imbalance" in the game ? This I gotta hear ..

[Killer Cyborg]

No they are not all direct spells. Direct spells have saving throw dodge.

Oh?
Please show me where the rules say that.

Most other indirect spells have saving throw magic.

Please show me the spells that are listed as "indirect spells."

You can't dodge a Compulsion spell, a force field will not protect you from a compulsion spell, neither will EBA nor Power Armor.

Then obviously that's not the kind of spell that he's talking about, since the thread is about environmental armor stopping magic, not.... not stopping it.

On the other hand, you have spells like Domination, which require a save (not a dodge), yet are stopped cold by environmental armor.

Enclosed vehicles and robots do offer protection because of all the material in the way.

And why exactly does that matter?
Seriously.
I'd love a thoughtful answer to that one.

Seriously you both think that just because some guy is wearing full body clothes and a hood with mask that a mage cannot cast compulsion on him because he has no line of site? Man that is some weird interpretations of the rules IMO.

I think this post is the first one to come up with it, but yes, that is a weird interpretation of things.

The rules have stated what is effected and what isn't. They have broadly said that casting at someone inside an enclosed vehicle or robot will not work. Some spells also mention Power Armor or EBA but most do not. No where in those line of site rules does it mention EBA.

And in a thread about EBA stopping magic, which of the above do you think we're discussing...?

[Killer Cyborg]

I think you are one of the few people who thinks this thread was talking about damage spells bypassing armor.

Then I believe you think wrong, because I don't believe he has ever said that this thread is about damage spells.
He merely used Fire Bolt to illustrate the way that certain non-damage spells rely on line of sight to hit their targets.

It's a parallel.