Retcon !!

[Lenwen]

Retcon !!

Which of any of them accociated within the Rifts Megaverse .. to date .. was the most loathed ?

Or which did you guys find simply .. the most against what was originally written ?

[Natasha]

All of it!

[Misfit KotLD]

I hated the Cyber-Knight changes as per SoT and on.

[Rallan]

Retcon !!

Which of any of them accociated within the Rifts Megaverse .. to date .. was the most loathed ?

Or which did you guys find simply .. the most against what was originally written ?

Tolkeen. In the main book (and in all of its mentions in early worldbooks and sourcebooks), Tolkeen is just a new up-and-coming citystate that's tolerant of D-bees and a big fan of magic. Basically it's painted as a younger, brasher version of Lazlo and New Lazlo, but without the established political power or the wisdom and moderation of those two. In short, it's an idealistic little guy that will be tragically wiped off the map in about five minutes if a major world power decides to get angry at it.

Cut to the Siege On Tolkeen books,and all of a sudden as if by magic (or as if by Ass Pull), it turns out to have unbreakable mystical defenses that just happen to shield it from insta-kill technological attacks like nukes or artillery bombardment. And despite being a dinky little unassuming citystate with a population of like, twelve or something, it also just happens to turn out to have an insanely powerful bunch of supernatural allies. Not that anyone ever noticed any of these things before the start of the SoT storyline, because apparently this stuff was all completely unremarkable until five minutes ago.

And of course their allies are bad and evil and they're not just a nice innocent citystate minding their own business after all. It's almost like someone had realised that an awful lot of the game's fans are rooting for the Coalition States, and (dare I say it) almost like someone decided to play up the badness of Tolkeen and deliberately change them from innocent victims into something more morally dubious so the fans wouldn't be upset by their precious CS being portrayed as the sort of power that smites innocents.

There've been plenty of continuity errors in Rifts (a rahu-man who's one of the NGR's top generals anyone?), and a few things where they've just outright changed or ignored a couple of things to allow a new idea to fit in. But few retcons as glaring as the many, many things they had to pull out of their ass to make the Siege On Tolkeen storyline work. And I use the term "work" in the loosest possible way

[Misfit KotLD]

Yeah, i revise my statement. Pretty much the whole of SoT was ill executed.

[The Beast]

The treatment of the Mechanoids since the Xitixix book.

[cornholioprime]

Probably it's the behaviour-change-retcon of the Xiticix in S.O.T. that is the very worst of all.

[Misfit KotLD]

The treatment of the Mechanoids since the Xitixix book.

What exactly was the change?

[Vrykolas2k]

The ignoring in its entirety of World Book 23.
Honestly, buying it was a waste of money, considering what is written in The Final Siege and Aftermath...
The Siege on Tolkeen. Yes the CS should have won.
But without the massive amounts of crap Tolkeen and the CS had. Yes, the CS should have suffered casualties. Yes, Tolkeen should have thrown in surprises. Yes, there should have been dragons involved.
No, the dragons shouldn't have just gone "poof".
No, Holmes shouldn't have survived that long in bug-land, especially without resupply, and not with that large number of personnel and vehicles.
No, the CS shouldn't have been able to supply large numbers of personnel and equipment out of thin air.
No, Tolkeen shouldn't have gone from relatively good to outright evil at the drop of a hat.

[Rallan]

The treatment of the Mechanoids since the Xitixix book.

What exactly was the change?

Yeah I'm sorta struggling to see how the Mechanoids got shafted. Their sourcebook was written at about the same time as Rifts England, and even then they were portrayed as a minor threat, a force with limited numbers completely isolated from the rest of their race, and with no real manufacturing base beyond what ARCHIE III promised them (and he was secretly conspiring against them the whole time). The general impression was that they were potentially a major threat if allowed to fester for years, but that if everyone got their asses in gear and if a suitably awesome band of PCs kicked enough ass, the Mechanoids would end up just being a footnote in the history of the eastern seaboard's monster invasions.

It's sorta hard to imagine them getting demoted to something less impressive than that

[Balabanto]

That one I can understand though. There are licensing problems with a movie or novel for Mechanoids, because they have separate mechanoids stuff.

The Tolkeen stuff, I can't understand at all. I LOVE the new Cyberknights, though. That's the level of badassery they should be at. If there's only like 2,000 of these guys, a fact that many people seem to forget, they should kick so much tail in combat that they should be that mighty. It takes TEN YEARS to become a Cyberknight. This is a level of dedication that simply isn't required for most other OCC's in the game.

The other thing I really hate is the Coalition Railroad. How in god's name does this thing survive? Every time the CS runs a train down this railroad, they would have to protect it with at least the following:

4 Blackhawks
4 Super Samas
4 Strikers
8 Smiling Jacks
20 CS Grunts with magnetic boots, in 3 shifts, one on top of the train, two inside it.
12 CS Rangers, as above.
3 Psi-Stalkers
3 Dog Packs

The Train should be a heavily armored powerhouse that has guns all over it, and as for leaders, CS Psychics, CS Military Specialists, and maybe even Janissaries.

I know you're all looking at me with this huge huh??? look on your faces, but those tracks are SDC! You would also have to build checkpoints along the railroad about every 50 miles or so, just to make sure you can reinforce if the thing is attacked.

There is no reason for this thing to even exist, and yet, it is so unbelievably cool that I have to give one of my groups a shot at robbing the thing.

The only thing I can think of is that someone else said "Wow, this is such an unbelievably cool idea that the Coalition will commit trillions of credits to it even though it's a logistical disaster!" Such military foul-ups have been known to happen before.

[Library Ogre]

The other thing I really hate is the Coalition Railroad. How in god's name does this thing survive? Every time the CS runs a train down this railroad, they would have to protect it with at least the following:

I know you're all looking at me with this huge huh??? look on your faces, but those tracks are SDC! You would also have to build checkpoints along the railroad about every 50 miles or so, just to make sure you can reinforce if the thing is attacked.

Actually, I covered the CS Railroad in stuff I wrote about Houstown. I don't see any reason to assume the tracks would be SDC (though I posit that folks in Houstown make a good living stealing sections of track and selling them in Houstown).

[Balabanto]

Well, ideally, one day, we'll get to see that material, but I'm not going to make you break NDA for it.

[The Beast]

The treatment of the Mechanoids since the Xitixix book.

What exactly was the change?

Yeah I'm sorta struggling to see how the Mechanoids got shafted. Their sourcebook was written at about the same time as Rifts England, and even then they were portrayed as a minor threat, a force with limited numbers completely isolated from the rest of their race, and with no real manufacturing base beyond what ARCHIE III promised them (and he was secretly conspiring against them the whole time). The general impression was that they were potentially a major threat if allowed to fester for years, but that if everyone got their asses in gear and if a suitably awesome band of PCs kicked enough ass, the Mechanoids would end up just being a footnote in the history of the eastern seaboard's monster invasions.

It's sorta hard to imagine them getting demoted to something less impressive than that

Their being one of the 7 Dangers was replaced by the Xitixix, and of all the new, official Archie stuff, only one weapon in the Shemarian book was hinted as being from alien origins. The name wasn't even mentioned, so technically Palladium could come back later with some new alien threat that was the basis of said weapon.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

(a rahu-man who's one of the NGR's top generals anyone?)

buy Triax and the NGR 2!

[TechnoGothic]

Tolkeen was Originally billed as a cool place to set up your Player Characters at. Now it is gone.

Holmes lost alot of good men when he went to Xiticix terroritory. They explained it well enough for me how and why they managed to escape it like they did. So I have no problem there. Alot of people have problems with it, because SMALLER groups (like PC groups) will not be able to do this. PC Groups will get wasted/killed for doing it the way Holmes did it. Why did Holmes succeed ? He had 20,000+ troops or so. And still lost one third of his men.

The MOST ANNOYING recont to me has been :

MDC being a Rarity.
How is it a Rarity ? It is everywhere in Rifts. Everyone seems to have it no matter how small the village or town. MDC Tech, MDC Magics, MDC Psionics, MDC TW, MDC Biologicals...etc...
It is EVERYWHERE now.
Dinosaurs used to sdc. Now they are mdc. Every new creature has mdc now.
MDC has gone overboard.

[Killer Cyborg]

Retcon !!

Which of any of them accociated within the Rifts Megaverse .. to date .. was the most loathed ?

Or which did you guys find simply .. the most against what was originally written ?

Cyberknight update.
And the New West.
And Japan.

[The Beast]

Dinosaurs used to sdc. Now they are mdc.

My 4th ed RMB has them as MDC creatures. Really low MDC creatures, but MDC nonetheless.

[Killer Cyborg]

Dinosaurs used to sdc. Now they are mdc.

My 4th ed RMB has them as MDC creatures. Really low MDC creatures, but MDC nonetheless.

Correct. The were always MDC critters in Rifts.
When I first read the book, I thought that was over-powered, but could see why they went with that decision.

[TechnoGothic]

My 2nd printing book lists them as SDC. With an MDC equivant. Like how the Titan Juicers were done. They even have AR ratings.

I like all Creatures (non-Supernaturals) being given DUAL stats. SDC-AR and MDC. That way groups can pick and choose which to use for their games.

I'd rather have them as SDC. Cause people are said to eat them. I do not care about MDC to SDC bullcrappe they write up later on in another book. If people can eat it it is SDC, and always was. It might have enough SDC to be considered a minor md being (Titan Juicers), but sdc weapons can still harm them. Do not get me started on Dino-swamp...

[Killer Cyborg]

My 2nd printing book lists them as SDC. With an MDC equivant. Like how the Titan Juicers were done. They even have AR ratings.

My second printing of Rifts lists them as MDC.
Only SDC mentioned was claw attacks for some of them.

I like all Creatures (non-Supernaturals) being given DUAL stats. SDC-AR and MDC. That way groups can pick and choose which to use for their games.

Not a bad idea, really. They do this in CB1 anyway.

I'd rather have them as SDC. Cause people are said to eat them.

I'd rather have them as SDC because there's no reason to believe that a dinosaur would be unharmed by a .50 cal shot to the head, or from a grenade being chucked at their feet.
They were SDC critters, and there's no reason to make them MDC in the first place.

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

[Cybermancer]

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

[Library Ogre]

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

Gator is good.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

Well, I can't really complain about that, since we're on about equal scientific footing.

I forget where current scientific research is, but last I heard they decided that dinosaurs were definitely not reptiles, and were more closely related to birds.
That cold-blooded creatures couldn't be that large.
So you could say that they taste like chicken.

But I wouldn't.
In my experience, each animal tastes pretty unique. Chicken tastes like chicken, lamb tastes like lamb, shark tastes like shark, gator tastes like gator, frog tastes like frog, etc.
So dinosaur would probably just taste like dinosaur.

[The Beast]

In my experience, each animal tastes pretty unique. Chicken tastes like chicken, lamb tastes like lamb, shark tastes like shark, gator tastes like gator, frog tastes like frog, etc.
So dinosaur would probably just taste like dinosaur.

No, everything tastes like chicken because they couldn't get the taste of chicken right. Don't you ever pay attention?

[Cybermancer]

Well, I can't really complain about that, since we're on about equal scientific footing.

I forget where current scientific research is, but last I heard they decided that dinosaurs were definitely not reptiles, and were more closely related to birds.
That cold-blooded creatures couldn't be that large.
So you could say that they taste like chicken.

But I wouldn't.
In my experience, each animal tastes pretty unique. Chicken tastes like chicken, lamb tastes like lamb, shark tastes like shark, gator tastes like gator, frog tastes like frog, etc.
So dinosaur would probably just taste like dinosaur.

Just this weekend I watched some documentry that had baby and adolescent T-Rex's with feathers. The CG animaitions were pretty neat. I've even heard theories that dinosaurs didn't so much go extinct as they evolved to the birds we know today. I suspect some may have gone extinct while others evolved.

Either way, I would have to agree, dinosaur would taste like dinosaur. Or to take it one step further Duckbills would taste like Duckbills, triceratops would taste like triceratops and T-Rex would taste you.

[Killer Cyborg]

Either way, I would have to agree, dinosaur would taste like dinosaur. Or to take it one step further Duckbills would taste like Duckbills, triceratops would taste like triceratops and T-Rex would taste you.

Yup.

[TechnoGothic]

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

Gator is very good. Eat it all the time here in Florida.

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

Well, I can't really complain about that, since we're on about equal scientific footing.

I forget where current scientific research is, but last I heard they decided that dinosaurs were definitely not reptiles, and were more closely related to birds.
That cold-blooded creatures couldn't be that large.
So you could say that they taste like chicken.

But I wouldn't.
In my experience, each animal tastes pretty unique. Chicken tastes like chicken, lamb tastes like lamb, shark tastes like shark, gator tastes like gator, frog tastes like frog, etc.
So dinosaur would probably just taste like dinosaur.

The Two Legged Dinosaurs were the Bird-like dinos.
The four legged Dinosaurs had more in common with mammals that layed eggs.

The period Before the Dinosaurs, was the time of Reptiles...

I've eating alot of animal types too. Many things taste simuliar based on what type food the animal eats and their activity level. Never just alike, but simuliar enough to confuse most people.

Rattlesnake is very good.

[glitterboy2098]

technogothic, the dinosaura were all decended from a common ancestor (as can be determained from common skeletal morphology), so even those four legged species (which don't forget, were decendants of two legged ancestors..) would have more in common with birds than mammals. in fact, the dinosaura were sort of a intermediate biology between archosauria (crocodilian types*) and Aves (birds)

*modern crocodiles are something a biological retread. they possess the physiology for endothermic metabolism, but because their ecological niche is aquatic ambush predators, they evolved to have a higher end exothermic metabolism, since that was more beneficial to their survival.)


as for the whole "MDC or SDC" thing...by palladium's backstory for rifts/CE/BTS/nightbane earth was a majorly magical place before the atlantian's mega-rift screwed it all up. so it's reasonable to assume that dinosaurs evolved in a time of high magical energy, and would react to high magical energy in rifts the same way as dragons and other such creatures do. so their being MDC actually makes some sense in universe.

and if you read dinosaur swamp and adventures in dinosaur swamp, many of the concerns over their seeming invulnerbility will be answered. (discussions of weakspots, for example). as for grenades and .50cal shots...a .50cal on a full burst will inflict mDC from sheer amount of SDC inflicted. most SDC grenades can do low MDC if you pick the right ones, and will still have concussive effects. and i would point out that the sheer mass of most dinosaurs, the osteoderm covered leathery skin, and the reletively small size of the braincase means that bullets would probably not phase them much, nor would a shot to the head be likely to kill one unless expertly placed.

[The Beast]

I don't like the stupid way Palladium is saying all the Earths were once the same Earth. I don't mind BTS being Rifts past, nor do I mind TMNT being AtB's past, but leave the rest of them to their own seperate universes.

[TechnoGothic]

as for the whole "MDC or SDC" thing...by palladium's backstory for rifts/CE/BTS/nightbane earth was a majorly magical place before the atlantian's mega-rift screwed it all up. so it's reasonable to assume that dinosaurs evolved in a time of high magical energy, and would react to high magical energy in rifts the same way as dragons and other such creatures do. so their being MDC actually makes some sense in universe.

and if you read dinosaur swamp and adventures in dinosaur swamp, many of the concerns over their seeming invulnerbility will be answered. (discussions of weakspots, for example). as for grenades and .50cal shots...a .50cal on a full burst will inflict mDC from sheer amount of SDC inflicted. most SDC grenades can do low MDC if you pick the right ones, and will still have concussive effects. and i would point out that the sheer mass of most dinosaurs, the osteoderm covered leathery skin, and the reletively small size of the braincase means that bullets would probably not phase them much, nor would a shot to the head be likely to kill one unless expertly placed.

Wrong. Each Bullet must inflict 100+sdc before it becomes mdc. By the book's rules anyways.
As I said, do not get me sarted on Dino-swamp...I hate those books. Would not be as bad, if they had Dual Stat the Dinos with SDC/Mdc as New West did.

[Samored II]

Retcon !!

Which of any of them accociated within the Rifts Megaverse .. to date .. was the most loathed ?

Or which did you guys find simply .. the most against what was originally written ?

And of course their allies are bad and evil and they're not just a nice innocent citystate minding their own business after all. It's almost like someone had realised that an awful lot of the game's fans are rooting for the Coalition States, and (dare I say it) almost like someone decided to play up the badness of Tolkeen and deliberately change them from innocent victims into something more morally dubious so the fans wouldn't be upset by their precious CS being portrayed as the sort of power that smites innocents.

To me that felt more like a ham-fisted attempt at an Aesop. War is Evil and everyone who fight one is EVILer! That sort of thing.

[Killer Cyborg]

The other thing I really hate is the Coalition Railroad.

Where is this info on a railroad? Never heard of it heh. Sounds stupid though. Why would they have a railroad when they have Deaths Head transports? Railroads are so vulnerable. If there is a CS train then that is the stupidest thing in Rifts.

Wrong. Each Bullet must inflict 100+sdc before it becomes mdc. By the book's rules anyways.

Nope read the damage from some of the WI weapons. They start off S.D.C. below 100 for single shots but do can do M.D.C. in bursts. Also pg 121 of Merc ops specifically states a .50 Cal Machine Gun does 1D60X10 S.D.C. for a single shot but a burst of 10 does "1D6X100 S.D.C (equal to 1d6 M.D.C.)".

Heck, look at the machine gun option for the Speedster ATV in the original Rifts book.

[Cybermancer]

as for the whole "MDC or SDC" thing...by palladium's backstory for rifts/CE/BTS/nightbane earth was a majorly magical place before the atlantian's mega-rift screwed it all up. so it's reasonable to assume that dinosaurs evolved in a time of high magical energy, and would react to high magical energy in rifts the same way as dragons and other such creatures do. so their being MDC actually makes some sense in universe.

Given the huge stretch of time between the two, this seems like a fairly large assumption. Although perhaps it was the extinction of the dinosaurs that caused the heightened level of PPE. Or even a more recent mass extinction such as the Toba super volcano.

Who knows, maybe the heightened levels of evolotionary activity that takes place after a mass extinction by species racing to fill new niches is helped along by this release of PPE.

[Balabanto]

The other thing I really hate is the Coalition Railroad.

Where is this info on a railroad? Never heard of it heh. Sounds stupid though. Why would they have a railroad when they have Deaths Head transports? Railroads are so vulnerable. If there is a CS train then that is the stupidest thing in Rifts.

Wrong. Each Bullet must inflict 100+sdc before it becomes mdc. By the book's rules anyways.

Nope read the damage from some of the WI weapons. They start off S.D.C. below 100 for single shots but do can do M.D.C. in bursts. Also pg 121 of Merc ops specifically states a .50 Cal Machine Gun does 1D60X10 S.D.C. for a single shot but a burst of 10 does "1D6X100 S.D.C (equal to 1d6 M.D.C.)".

It's in Coalition Navy. It runs from Lonestar to the Naval Base on the Ocean. It's a way of building defensible positions every 50 miles or so. For me, the problem with the railroad isn't that it exists. It's that the force needed to protect the actual train is more resource heavy than the cargo that the train would be carrying, most of the time. Even if, as Mark says, the tracks are MDC, the issues with this are immense.

On paper, it has a lot of coolness factor. CS players can protect the train, other groups can try to attack or rob it. Remember, Techno-Wizard trains are stupid too. The type of conveyance doesn't matter. A railroad is still a railroad. Really, I would love to see a map of ALL the rail lines in Rifts, that would be VERY handy, and require a lot less thought than the ley line map.

In principle, however, the idea doesn't stand up under intense scrutiny TACTICALLY. However, ideologically, the benefits of the railroad are immense. Soviet Russia had a lot of projects like this. Is it really necessary to build a rail line all the way across Siberia to Vladivostok? Probably not. But they DID. Why? Because it benefits them ideologically to say "We built this mighty railroad, and now it's here, ha ha ha!"

Plus, it gives the Coalition a visible presence in the south. It puts them in a position of visibility where they control territory by sending these huge armed patrols out with a train as a show of force. This reinforces the idea that the Coalition is here to stay. Does it lose money on paper? Of course it does! But a lot of tyrannical governments think this way.

So is it stupid? Yes! Is it unbelievable? No.

[DhAkael]

In principle, however, the idea doesn't stand up under intense scrutiny TACTICALLY. However, ideologically, the benefits of the railroad are immense. Soviet Russia had a lot of projects like this. Is it really necessary to build a rail line all the way across Siberia to Vladivostok? Probably not. But they DID. Why? Because it benefits them ideologically to say "We built this mighty railroad, and now it's here, ha ha ha!"

Plus, it gives the Coalition a visible presence in the south. It puts them in a position of visibility where they control territory by sending these huge armed patrols out with a train as a show of force. This reinforces the idea that the Coalition is here to stay. Does it lose money on paper? Of course it does! But a lot of tyrannical governments think this way.

So is it stupid? Yes! Is it unbelievable? No.

QFT

[runebeo]

I like the idea of a little power creep but for newer rifles that deal more than tanks and most giant robot is silly, so I suggest a minor power creep again just for most tanks, giant robot and some vehicles. Most heavy cannons mounted on vehicles should deal 1D6X10, 2D4X10 or large cannons 2D6x10 M.D. since allot of rifles deal 1D6x10 M.D. with a burst that a far bit stronger than rifles in the old core book. I do think their should be more S.D.C. creatures but really what use are s.d.c. dinosaurs to players armed with m.d.c. weapons and armor unless they included interesting abilities like spiting acid that can damage even M.D.C. material while still only dealing s.d.c. damage to normal creatures or involves strangulation, drowning, suffocation or ethereal attacks that go right threw body armor.

I found Lone Star to be the most useless book it had nothing that interest my players, I see some missed opportunity to bring in some super mutants like the ones South America. Now looking back at look how imposing the Xitickix Killer looks then look at his M.D.C.s, the updated bugs in the later book would slaughter them and they were meant to hunt them.

[sHaka]

The other thing I really hate is the Coalition Railroad.

Where is this info on a railroad? Never heard of it heh. Sounds stupid though. Why would they have a railroad when they have Deaths Head transports? Railroads are so vulnerable. If there is a CS train then that is the stupidest thing in Rifts.

Wrong. Each Bullet must inflict 100+sdc before it becomes mdc. By the book's rules anyways.

Nope read the damage from some of the WI weapons. They start off S.D.C. below 100 for single shots but do can do M.D.C. in bursts. Also pg 121 of Merc ops specifically states a .50 Cal Machine Gun does 1D60X10 S.D.C. for a single shot but a burst of 10 does "1D6X100 S.D.C (equal to 1d6 M.D.C.)".

I think I'm right in saying that in RMB, only explosives dealing > 100 SDC could affect MDC (as highlighted by the brilliant tank VS progressively more armed lunatics example).

Not sure when exactly it changed, but certainly in RUE the rules now state that any SDC attack of > 100 points would damage MDC.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

It's in Coalition Navy. It runs from Lonestar to the Naval Base on the Ocean. It's a way of building defensible positions every 50 miles or so. For me, the problem with the railroad isn't that it exists. It's that the force needed to protect the actual train is more resource heavy than the cargo that the train would be carrying, most of the time. Even if, as Mark says, the tracks are MDC, the issues with this are immense.

On paper, it has a lot of coolness factor. CS players can protect the train, other groups can try to attack or rob it. Remember, Techno-Wizard trains are stupid too. The type of conveyance doesn't matter. A railroad is still a railroad. Really, I would love to see a map of ALL the rail lines in Rifts, that would be VERY handy, and require a lot less thought than the ley line map.

In principle, however, the idea doesn't stand up under intense scrutiny TACTICALLY. However, ideologically, the benefits of the railroad are immense. Soviet Russia had a lot of projects like this. Is it really necessary to build a rail line all the way across Siberia to Vladivostok? Probably not. But they DID. Why? Because it benefits them ideologically to say "We built this mighty railroad, and now it's here, ha ha ha!"

Plus, it gives the Coalition a visible presence in the south. It puts them in a position of visibility where they control territory by sending these huge armed patrols out with a train as a show of force. This reinforces the idea that the Coalition is here to stay. Does it lose money on paper? Of course it does! But a lot of tyrannical governments think this way.

So is it stupid? Yes! Is it unbelievable? No.

Hmm I only read CS Navy the one time don't remember a railroad, guess I should pull it out of storage sometime heh.

TW Railroads are dumb but since they don't have better ways of mass transit of cargo(like Deaths Head Transports), their use of a rail road makes sense. The CS doesn't make sense. They have better and safer ways to move cargo and DH Transports definitely say to the area 'we're here!' lol.

MDC tracks would not prevent anyone from stealing them. People would simply remove sections heh.

Tell that guy, who has a GM who won't give him access to MDC materials, where to find this railroad. Lots of MDC tracks just waiting for the taking.

[glitterboy2098]

as for the whole "MDC or SDC" thing...by palladium's backstory for rifts/CE/BTS/nightbane earth was a majorly magical place before the atlantian's mega-rift screwed it all up. so it's reasonable to assume that dinosaurs evolved in a time of high magical energy, and would react to high magical energy in rifts the same way as dragons and other such creatures do. so their being MDC actually makes some sense in universe.

Given the huge stretch of time between the two, this seems like a fairly large assumption. Although perhaps it was the extinction of the dinosaurs that caused the heightened level of PPE. Or even a more recent mass extinction such as the Toba super volcano.

Who knows, maybe the heightened levels of evolotionary activity that takes place after a mass extinction by species racing to fill new niches is helped along by this release of PPE.

given that the Dinosauria dominated the worlds ecosystems for 120 million+ years and survived a half dozen major and hundreds of minor extinctions (some killing off almost half of the life on earth), one would expect that if extinctions put extra PPE into the enviroment, the dinosaurs would have adapted to such an enviroment. (which given the natural spell-like abilities seen in dinosaur swamp, seems probable)

the K-T extinction, and the dozens of other mass extinctions in the 60 million years since it, would have just kept the enviroment at the status quo. (in fact, the timing on the Atlantian mistake actually implies that the extinction of the megafuana at the end of the last ice age, something that had never happenend in previous ice ages, even the more severe ones, might be traced to the sudden lack of magical energy. without high ambient PPE, the creatures, which presumably have adapted t the prescense of ley lines and magic, would have been much more succeptible to illness, the enviroment, and the surviving predators.)

[Lenwen]

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

Gator is good.

I've had Gator gumbo .. and that stuff was amazing ..

[Lenwen]

I don't like the stupid way Palladium is saying all the Earths were once the same Earth. I don't mind BTS being Rifts past, nor do I mind TMNT being AtB's past, but leave the rest of them to their own seperate universes.

Where and which books are you speaking about ?

But this is a well said statement .. Every earth can not be .. the Same earth ... but different .. its one or the other.

[The Beast]

I don't like the stupid way Palladium is saying all the Earths were once the same Earth. I don't mind BTS being Rifts past, nor do I mind TMNT being AtB's past, but leave the rest of them to their own seperate universes.

Where and which books are you speaking about ?

But this is a well said statement .. Every earth can not be .. the Same earth ... but different .. its one or the other.

I'd have to dig around to find he passages.

[Cybermancer]

as for the whole "MDC or SDC" thing...by palladium's backstory for rifts/CE/BTS/nightbane earth was a majorly magical place before the atlantian's mega-rift screwed it all up. so it's reasonable to assume that dinosaurs evolved in a time of high magical energy, and would react to high magical energy in rifts the same way as dragons and other such creatures do. so their being MDC actually makes some sense in universe.

Given the huge stretch of time between the two, this seems like a fairly large assumption. Although perhaps it was the extinction of the dinosaurs that caused the heightened level of PPE. Or even a more recent mass extinction such as the Toba super volcano.

Who knows, maybe the heightened levels of evolotionary activity that takes place after a mass extinction by species racing to fill new niches is helped along by this release of PPE.

given that the Dinosauria dominated the worlds ecosystems for 120 million+ years and survived a half dozen major and hundreds of minor extinctions (some killing off almost half of the life on earth), one would expect that if extinctions put extra PPE into the enviroment, the dinosaurs would have adapted to such an enviroment. (which given the natural spell-like abilities seen in dinosaur swamp, seems probable)

the K-T extinction, and the dozens of other mass extinctions in the 60 million years since it, would have just kept the enviroment at the status quo. (in fact, the timing on the Atlantian mistake actually implies that the extinction of the megafuana at the end of the last ice age, something that had never happenend in previous ice ages, even the more severe ones, might be traced to the sudden lack of magical energy. without high ambient PPE, the creatures, which presumably have adapted t the prescense of ley lines and magic, would have been much more succeptible to illness, the enviroment, and the surviving predators.)

That would actually suggest that a magic rich enviroment was the default for any world that had a life cycle anything like Earth's. That is, a repeating cycle of extinctions. And that the last 10,000 or so years have actually been the anamolly rather than the norm.

[Todd Yoho]

...it's reasonable to assume that dinosaurs evolved in a time of high magical energy, and would react to high magical energy in rifts the same way as dragons and other such creatures do. so their being MDC actually makes some sense in universe.

This was the intent, and heavily implied, in the Dino Swamp books. I thought it might be more fun and mysterious to leave it slightly unanswered, but it's done nothing but cause trouble over the years.

For the record, and once again, I'm stating it here directly: Mesozoic = high magic environment = M.D.C. setting = M.D.C. dinos = because it makes sense in universe =I said so = I'm pulling the Authorial Intent card, and I have no patience or interest in debating the matter.

[glitterboy2098]

That would actually suggest that a magic rich enviroment was the default for any world that had a life cycle anything like Earth's. That is, a repeating cycle of extinctions. And that the last 10,000 or so years have actually been the anamolly rather than the norm.

yes and no. it basically means that a world magic's levels usually don't fluctuate much. earth started as high magic, and post atlantians, the 100,000 years or so of low magic is an anomaly (which is actually indicated in the fluff about the event...)
a world that started low magic would general stay low magic unless some anomalous event came along to permenantly change that.
at least, thats the implication in the books.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

Gator is good.

I've had Gator gumbo .. and that stuff was amazing ..

Hell, if you've had Gumbo, then you've eaten most every animal on the planet anyway.

[dark brandon]

I'd also prefer that they didn't describe people eating them.
It's hardly scientific evidence of anything, but the Mokele-Mbembe is supposed to be poisonous to humans, and I tend to think of dinosaurs that way.

Personally, I've always pictured dinosaurs tasting like alligator or crocodile. Not that I've ever had either. Nor is that terribly scientific either.

Gator is good.

I've had Gator gumbo .. and that stuff was amazing ..

Hell, if you've had Gumbo, then you've eaten most every animal on the planet anyway.

Well, some theories suggest birds are descendants of some dinos...assuming that is correct, it would be safe to say that all dinos taste like chicken.

[Cybermancer]

That would actually suggest that a magic rich enviroment was the default for any world that had a life cycle anything like Earth's. That is, a repeating cycle of extinctions. And that the last 10,000 or so years have actually been the anamolly rather than the norm.

yes and no. it basically means that a world magic's levels usually don't fluctuate much. earth started as high magic, and post atlantians, the 100,000 years or so of low magic is an anomaly (which is actually indicated in the fluff about the event...)
a world that started low magic would general stay low magic unless some anomalous event came along to permenantly change that.
at least, thats the implication in the books.

This reminds me of a very old campaign that I've kept the notes to and have been working gradually into a Rifter submission.

The basic premise was that the PC's were part of a colony mission sent from earth in the late 2090's. The intention was that this was the Rifts Earth universe and that the colony mission would narrowly escape the Rifts catastrophe. They would then develop on this other world until they again came into contact with Earth in the current time line. While I was developing the campaign, I didn't want magic on the MDC scale to be a total and complete surprise to the returning colonists.

So I took a look at the Palladium books that were out at the time ( I think this was back in '99) and I noticed that one thing that effected levels of PPE were astronomical events. The other, as Rifts showed, were mass deaths, especially during astronomical events. That led me to decide to make the setting a trinary star system with each star having at least a few planets to create more potential events. I then also decided that the planet being colonized had 'recently' undergone a mass extinction. There was still lots of life but huge swaths of ecological niches were empty or in contention. Niches the colonists could fill with earth organisms.

It would be a little later that I would notice a passage in Mutants in Orbit that would lead me to chose Alpha Centauri as the target star.

In any event, in the campaign that played out I decided somewhat arbitrarily that the ambient levels of PPE were roughly half that of earth. So MDC attacks and protection would be at half. Because there were only a handful of characters who knew magic or had psionics (old Heroes Unlimited characters), it wouldn't be immediately widely known what the conditions were.

This led me to consider the origins of gods and why they are often so much like us. So I decided that the levels of PPE present on this world created pseudo entities that were somewhat empathic in nature. They would respond to the thoughts and imaginations of others. Since this world had never had intelligent life, these beings had always existed as formless spirit entities soaking in the PPE at ley lines and nexus points.

The first encounter went something like this.

The PC's had heard stories of strange occurances at the lake near their colony site. So they went to investigate. I described the scene as a mist filled evening under the three full moons. I told them that a pillar of mist seemed to rise from the lake.

Someone asked, "Is it humanoid?"

I smiled and said, "It seems to be forming a head, arms and legs."

Someone else asked, "Is it woman?"

I kept smiling and said, "It does appear to have an hourglass figure."

The more they asked questions and imagined it, the more it assumed form and became what they were imagining. And thus the first of a new pantheon was born. Similar entities would arise on other nexus points and ley lines scattered across the planet.

As I've worked on the project later, I have moved away from that mysticism and kept the colony more tech based.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Spoiler:

That would actually suggest that a magic rich enviroment was the default for any world that had a life cycle anything like Earth's. That is, a repeating cycle of extinctions. And that the last 10,000 or so years have actually been the anamolly rather than the norm.

yes and no. it basically means that a world magic's levels usually don't fluctuate much. earth started as high magic, and post atlantians, the 100,000 years or so of low magic is an anomaly (which is actually indicated in the fluff about the event...)
a world that started low magic would general stay low magic unless some anomalous event came along to permenantly change that.
at least, thats the implication in the books.

This reminds me of a very old campaign that I've kept the notes to and have been working gradually into a Rifter submission.

The basic premise was that the PC's were part of a colony mission sent from earth in the late 2090's. The intention was that this was the Rifts Earth universe and that the colony mission would narrowly escape the Rifts catastrophe. They would then develop on this other world until they again came into contact with Earth in the current time line. While I was developing the campaign, I didn't want magic on the MDC scale to be a total and complete surprise to the returning colonists.

So I took a look at the Palladium books that were out at the time ( I think this was back in '99) and I noticed that one thing that effected levels of PPE were astronomical events. The other, as Rifts showed, were mass deaths, especially during astronomical events. That led me to decide to make the setting a trinary star system with each star having at least a few planets to create more potential events. I then also decided that the planet being colonized had 'recently' undergone a mass extinction. There was still lots of life but huge swaths of ecological niches were empty or in contention. Niches the colonists could fill with earth organisms.

It would be a little later that I would notice a passage in Mutants in Orbit that would lead me to chose Alpha Centauri as the target star.

In any event, in the campaign that played out I decided somewhat arbitrarily that the ambient levels of PPE were roughly half that of earth. So MDC attacks and protection would be at half. Because there were only a handful of characters who knew magic or had psionics (old Heroes Unlimited characters), it wouldn't be immediately widely known what the conditions were.

This led me to consider the origins of gods and why they are often so much like us. So I decided that the levels of PPE present on this world created pseudo entities that were somewhat empathic in nature. They would respond to the thoughts and imaginations of others. Since this world had never had intelligent life, these beings had always existed as formless spirit entities soaking in the PPE at ley lines and nexus points.

The first encounter went something like this.

The PC's had heard stories of strange occurances at the lake near their colony site. So they went to investigate. I described the scene as a mist filled evening under the three full moons. I told them that a pillar of mist seemed to rise from the lake.

Someone asked, "Is it humanoid?"

I smiled and said, "It seems to be forming a head, arms and legs."

Someone else asked, "Is it woman?"

I kept smiling and said, "It does appear to have an hourglass figure."

The more they asked questions and imagined it, the more it assumed form and became what they were imagining. And thus the first of a new pantheon was born. Similar entities would arise on other nexus points and ley lines scattered across the planet.

As I've worked on the project later, I have moved away from that mysticism and kept the colony more tech based.

I gotta tell ya, I like that story there. It reminds me of aspects of the Coldfire trilogy. Ballin' books. Great author.