Rules Misinterpretations

[KillWatch]

RecentlyI have discovered that the way I have been using NAR is just plain wrong in the eyes of the game. I have been using NAR as the natural unmodified number needed on the die to hit, which made many abilities pretty significant. I felt silly once I discovered the canon way of using NAR after so many years, but I am going to keep doing it cuz I like it.

And now there is a bit of a discussion on whether or not KS actually runs the games by his own rules, or that many people are simply misinterpreting the rules he has laid forth.

Are there rules that you have misread/misunderstood in the past and what did you do once you discovered the "error"?

[Killer Cyborg]

Are there rules that you have misread/misunderstood in the past and what did you do once you discovered the "error"?

The C-12 laser rifle wasn't supposed to work the way I believed it to. Due to a typo, I believed it could fire single-shots of 4d6 MD, and had Aimed, Burst, and Wild firing capabilities.
In reality, it was only ever 2d6 MD per shot; the 4d6 was a preset 5-shot burst setting, and the weapon could not fire burst/sprays.
I was disappointed in this because the weapon went from being one of the best in the game to being one of the most inefficient.
I instituted a house-rule that the 5-shot setting was a pulse, not a burst, boosting the damage to 1d6x10 MD, chalking up the weapon's replacement in CWC to concerns about troops burning through ammunition too swiftly.

When I first started playing Rifts, we were used to D&D, so we thought that attacks worked the same way. When a person's init came up, they'd use all their attacks at once.
This lead to virtually every battle being won by the Glitterboy whenever his init came up.
Once we learned the real rules, we adopted them and combat was more equitable.

[The Beast]

Are there rules that you have misread/misunderstood in the past and what did you do once you discovered the "error"?

When I first started playing Rifts, we were used to D&D, so we thought that attacks worked the same way. When a person's init came up, they'd use all their attacks at once.
This lead to virtually every battle being won by the Glitterboy whenever his init came up.
Once we learned the real rules, we adopted them and combat was more equitable.

I thought I was the only person that ever happened to.

I think my 1st group did that the 1st couple times we played Robotech, but we fixed that by the time Rifts came along.

[Dr. Doom III]

The C-12 laser rifle wasn't supposed to work the way I believed it to. Due to a typo, I believed it could fire single-shots of 4d6 MD, and had Aimed, Burst, and Wild firing capabilities.
In reality, it was only ever 2d6 MD per shot; the 4d6 was a preset 5-shot burst setting, and the weapon could not fire burst/sprays.
I was disappointed in this because the weapon went from being one of the best in the game to being one of the most inefficient.

Just as I've always said.

[Killer Cyborg]

The C-12 laser rifle wasn't supposed to work the way I believed it to. Due to a typo, I believed it could fire single-shots of 4d6 MD, and had Aimed, Burst, and Wild firing capabilities.
In reality, it was only ever 2d6 MD per shot; the 4d6 was a preset 5-shot burst setting, and the weapon could not fire burst/sprays.
I was disappointed in this because the weapon went from being one of the best in the game to being one of the most inefficient.

Just as I've always said.

Yes. Doom was correct.
Doom knew what he was talking about, but the rest of us were wrong.
All Hail Doom!

[ghost2020]

Bah!
We used the burst rules from day one, for laser weapons and still do.

Never did understand why the game was for munchkins. That burst fire kept everyone dodging and running for cover. It makes sense that way.

It was and still is a damned dangerous game.

Good times. Good times.

[Anthar]

I've always felt that I had a pretty decent grasp on the rules and ran things just as intended even though some rules were not very clear but were clarified in later books. Some times, I just don't get some people's interpretations of the rules that often go completely opposite of what is written in the rules.

[KillWatch]

examples Anthar?

[Anthar]

examples Anthar?

Automatic dodge: for some odd reason people thought that it meant that the character automatically succeeded on their dodge attempt when it was only intended to allow a character to attempt a dodge without using an attack. It had gotten so bad that it needed to be very explicitly repeated over and over in a few different books to break that from some players.

[Cybermancer]

Let's see, I made the same mistake about the C-12 that Killer Cyborg did. I think given the wording, it's pretty understandable.

I've played in a game of Robotech where the GM played attacks just like in D&D. We pointed out that he was wrong, with examples that were written in the book. He accepted that he was wrong but insisted on running it the D&D way. Winners of initiative generally pwned all. I didn't go back after the first session, especially after he started complaining about how bad a system Palladium was... Don't get me wrong, I'm not in love with the system but at least play it right (or try to) before you condemn it.

I've had a player try to tell me automatic dodge means you automatically dodge and that it doesn't use attacks. Which would basically make the Juicer invincible. They were corrected and we gamed together for years.

I'm sure I made a few other errors when I first started out but that was so long ago I can hardly remember.

Well, it's not Rifts but when the most recent edition of Heroes Unlimited came out, I misintepreted both the skill selection for the Military Specialist level of education and the Analytical Genius. Both were due to misprintings though. I sort of figured I was making a mistake with the Analytical Genius but as I was a player, I thought it was really sweet to give up one skill program to gain all the skills the Analytical Genius got.

[Killer Cyborg]

Bah!
We used the burst rules from day one, for laser weapons and still do.

Up until RGMG, that was the official way to do it.
You just couldn't do it with pulse weapons and other stuff with preset burst settings, like the C-14.

Never did understand why the game was for munchkins. That burst fire kept everyone dodging and running for cover. It makes sense that way.

It was and still is a damned dangerous game.

Good times. Good times.

Amen!

[Vrykolas2k]

The C-12 laser rifle wasn't supposed to work the way I believed it to. Due to a typo, I believed it could fire single-shots of 4d6 MD, and had Aimed, Burst, and Wild firing capabilities.
In reality, it was only ever 2d6 MD per shot; the 4d6 was a preset 5-shot burst setting, and the weapon could not fire burst/sprays.
I was disappointed in this because the weapon went from being one of the best in the game to being one of the most inefficient.

Just as I've always said.

Yes. Doom was correct.
Doom knew what he was talking about, but the rest of us were wrong.
All Hail Doom!

For once...

[Reagren Wright]

I remember using Armor of Ithan and thinking it was a NAR of 18 and that you had to destroy
the armor first before you could hurt the mage. We had mages nearly indestructible for the
longest time back in 1st edition days. Once Rifts came out it only added to the confusion
because it was made into MDC and the armor rating was gone.

[Killer Cyborg]

I remember using Armor of Ithan and thinking it was a NAR of 18 and that you had to destroy
the armor first before you could hurt the mage. We had mages nearly indestructible for the
longest time back in 1st edition days. Once Rifts came out it only added to the confusion
because it was made into MDC and the armor rating was gone.

lol
Yeah, we did that too.

[Reagren Wright]

I also remember giving animals the ability to auto parry for the longest time. For reasons that
are just laughable animals like lions, tigers, and bears (all normal) are extremely lethal in our
games. My players went up against a lion that was mauling some merchant. In this instance
the dice were in the G.M.s favor because this lion was auto parrying with rolls over 16 like 10
times in a row. As a result, he not only survived fighing three P.C. he managed to
critical strike one and put him into coma and the other two had lost half their hit points. Later
when I realizes my mistake boy did I hear it from my group . Still it never seems to
fail you attack a lion, tiger, or bear and someone always ends up getting hit with a
critical .

[t0m]

when i started out in rpgs i had no idea what they were (i got top secret boxed set as a gift from an aunt who didnt know what it was). i was very interested but had to figure it all out with no input from anyone who actually had played an rpg before (at 10 years old). i play tested solo trying to learn combat and character gen so i could teach my friends. i worked a lot of problems out during solo testing ('that doesnt seem fair, oh i have to do this instead, or add it up this way' etc), but a few stuck around until i actually got to play with someone who knew what they were doing. i got the rulebook for pfrpg shortly after top secret, and my most embarrassing misinterpretation of rules was in the way they listed bonuses in the old rules. you can see part of it here in the old gm screen on the 'cutting room floor' in the h2h charts. they list the total bonus by level, so a lvl 5 thief gets a +2 dmg, and then at lvl 11 it says +3...i would add those up for a +5. the wp charts were the same, and i added them up not realizing they were already calculated. so my lvl 5 ranger had like +10 to strike with all his mis-calculated bonuses. when i took him to game with an older kid who had been taught to play properly, my ranger got laughed out of the game for being broken/munchkin (though that term wasnt even invented yet afaik). i didnt notice in my play testing because i made everything like that, so there was balance still, just with higher numbers/bonuses.

another time playing 40k, i was using some 'new' (at the time) tyranid units. one of them (hive tyrant i think it was) had a special rule where he could move an extra few inches if his attack met a certain requirement, and a new target was in range (i think the attack had to be a kill, cant remember though i havnt played 40k in over 10 years). it was our first time with the new units/rules so we messed up and thought it gave me another attack as well. on my first move with the hive tyrant i met the requirements for a bonus move...and my next attack did too, about 7 times in a row. i killed a unit of marines and one devastator, all in my first attack right after that we re-read the rules and decided we were "doin' it wrong". the other guy, to his credit, took the loss in stride because none of us knew better until it happened. he actually thought it was pretty cool/funny.

[Noon]

I remember using Armor of Ithan and thinking it was a NAR of 18 and that you had to destroy
the armor first before you could hurt the mage. We had mages nearly indestructible for the
longest time back in 1st edition days. Once Rifts came out it only added to the confusion
because it was made into MDC and the armor rating was gone.

LOL I had to talk a GM out of that one. It was the only time we had played the palladium fantasy game, we had done lots of Rifts up until then. I was playing the mage and he was like, "why are deducting damage off your Armor of Ithan?" I was like "because they didn't roll high enough to get past my armor spell so I am taking the damage off the armor spell" he said "no, no, no the armor spell isn't damaged unless they roll above the AR, there is no getting past the spell" I gave him my most evil grin and said "but then I would be nigh invulnerable! Do you really want to make me nigh invulnerable? " knowing the devious I have done to him in the past he was like "grrr no we'll try it your way first"

Rules lawyering against your own PC

[Killer Cyborg]

I remember using Armor of Ithan and thinking it was a NAR of 18 and that you had to destroy
the armor first before you could hurt the mage. We had mages nearly indestructible for the
longest time back in 1st edition days. Once Rifts came out it only added to the confusion
because it was made into MDC and the armor rating was gone.

LOL I had to talk a GM out of that one. It was the only time we had played the palladium fantasy game, we had done lots of Rifts up until then. I was playing the mage and he was like, "why are deducting damage off your Armor of Ithan?" I was like "because they didn't roll high enough to get past my armor spell so I am taking the damage off the armor spell" he said "no, no, no the armor spell isn't damaged unless they roll above the AR, there is no getting past the spell" I gave him my most evil grin and said "but then I would be nigh invulnerable! Do you really want to make me nigh invulnerable? " knowing the devious I have done to him in the past he was like "grrr no we'll try it your way first"

Rules lawyering against your own PC

I am a fair and impartial rules lawyer!

Same here.
Which is why I dislike the assumption that Rules Lawyers are always just in it for themselves.
Like any other kind of lawyer, a lot of the ones I know are in if for the rules.

[Rockwolf66]

Same here.
Which is why I dislike the assumption that Rules Lawyers are always just in it for themselves.
Like any other kind of lawyer, a lot of the ones I know are in if for the rules.

heck, I readily admit to being a power gameing rules lawyer. Not only do I try to optimize my character in game but I try to aquire "gifts" for other players if it is within character for mine to do so. Sort of like when I play my fighter in D&D, as I do take weaponmakeing skills everyone in the party ends up with at least masterwork weapons and at higher levels not only masterworked but of apropriate exotic materials. In my last tabletop Rifts game not only was my Operator a Multi-Millonaire and dishing out as much damage as the party Cyborg but he was working on aquireing the best technological equipment he could for the other party members who were most helpful to the group as a whole.

[Cybermancer]

I remember using Armor of Ithan and thinking it was a NAR of 18 and that you had to destroy
the armor first before you could hurt the mage. We had mages nearly indestructible for the
longest time back in 1st edition days. Once Rifts came out it only added to the confusion
because it was made into MDC and the armor rating was gone.

LOL I had to talk a GM out of that one. It was the only time we had played the palladium fantasy game, we had done lots of Rifts up until then. I was playing the mage and he was like, "why are deducting damage off your Armor of Ithan?" I was like "because they didn't roll high enough to get past my armor spell so I am taking the damage off the armor spell" he said "no, no, no the armor spell isn't damaged unless they roll above the AR, there is no getting past the spell" I gave him my most evil grin and said "but then I would be nigh invulnerable! Do you really want to make me nigh invulnerable? " knowing the devious I have done to him in the past he was like "grrr no we'll try it your way first"

Rules lawyering against your own PC

I am a fair and impartial rules lawyer!

Same here.
Which is why I dislike the assumption that Rules Lawyers are always just in it for themselves.
Like any other kind of lawyer, a lot of the ones I know are in if for the rules.

As with any category of person, Rules Lawyers all get painted with the same brush as the worst of their number. Also, I think that some people forget that it's a game and that games have rules. RPG's start to lose their fun if there are those playing who break the rules just as a game such as monopoly loses some of the fun when one or more people break the rules.

An honest rules lawyer wishes the game to be fair and consistant with everyone playing by the same rules. For myself, this is the category I try to fall under. Note that house rules are fine, as long as they are known and consistantly applied.

A dishonest rules lawyer is the bad example everyone hates. Someone who wishes to leverege their knowledge or intepretation of the rules for an advantage for themselves. Some variants will attempt to brow beat a GM into getting their way or else. That or hold up the game debating a rules call for some selfish gain.

[Anthar]

Same here.
Which is why I dislike the assumption that Rules Lawyers are always just in it for themselves.
Like any other kind of lawyer, a lot of the ones I know are in if for the rules.

heck, I readily admit to being a power gameing rules lawyer. Not only do I try to optimize my character in game but I try to aquire "gifts" for other players if it is within character for mine to do so. Sort of like when I play my fighter in D&D, as I do take weaponmakeing skills everyone in the party ends up with at least masterwork weapons and at higher levels not only masterworked but of apropriate exotic materials. In my last tabletop Rifts game not only was my Operator a Multi-Millonaire and dishing out as much damage as the party Cyborg but he was working on aquireing the best technological equipment he could for the other party members who were most helpful to the group as a whole.

And that's the way to play in a group, everyone helps everyone. The PCs are team-mates and friends and they are working together to keep eachother safe.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The Very first GM I played with thought that automatic parry ment those trained in hand to hand automatically parried all attacks without using an attack.

[Spinachcat]

I run a very cinematic game so PCs have the choice to use as many actions as they like on their initiative...however the players soon learn to hold a few in reserve for defensive actions and the occassional simultaneous attack. Their initiative is their Camera Time.

Sure, the mecha and the glitter boy have their big moment in the sun...but anyone who blows their wad of actions in attacks is in a world of hurt when its the enemy's turn. The auto-dodge becomes deeply impressive of course.

Since I run games this way, I build battles with this in mind. Rarely will I have one beastie as the foe, but instead have a Boss + Minions or a Team of Foes...and if the PCs have a PA or Mech, then I give the enemy something worth shooting at.

I once had a Rules Lawyer try some jibberish on me, but there was this fine chianti nearby. I have a zero tolerance policy for such noise at my table.

[Killer Cyborg]

When I first started playing Heroes Unlimited I was played an experiment with the side effect must physically transform. Well the group I was playing with mistakenly thought that meant you constantly transformed each and every single time you used your power and that the effects where cumulative. I ended up over 100 ft tall after the first session.

lol
Nice!

[Shorty Lickens]

Are there rules that you have misread/misunderstood in the past and what did you do once you discovered the "error"?

The C-12 laser rifle wasn't supposed to work the way I believed it to. Due to a typo, I believed it could fire single-shots of 4d6 MD, and had Aimed, Burst, and Wild firing capabilities.
In reality, it was only ever 2d6 MD per shot; the 4d6 was a preset 5-shot burst setting, and the weapon could not fire burst/sprays.
I was disappointed in this because the weapon went from being one of the best in the game to being one of the most inefficient.
I instituted a house-rule that the 5-shot setting was a pulse, not a burst, boosting the damage to 1d6x10 MD, chalking up the weapon's replacement in CWC to concerns about troops burning through ammunition too swiftly.

When I first started playing Rifts, we were used to D&D, so we thought that attacks worked the same way. When a person's init came up, they'd use all their attacks at once.
This lead to virtually every battle being won by the Glitterboy whenever his init came up.
Once we learned the real rules, we adopted them and combat was more equitable.

That was of minor confusion to me for many years. Then I realized the whole burst/wild spray generic default rules were actually meant for 20th century machine guns and such. While with the lasers guns for Rifts we were just supposed to be using the bursts listed in the weapons individual description.

This is one of the things that seriously bothered me about Rifts for years, and they still havent corrected it. I really wish they had come out with a better format for weapon stats. They need to include the WP required to get bonuses when shooting the weapon (its not always obvious) and they need to tell you what modes of shooting it gets and how much ammo each type uses.

[Killer Cyborg]

Are there rules that you have misread/misunderstood in the past and what did you do once you discovered the "error"?

The C-12 laser rifle wasn't supposed to work the way I believed it to. Due to a typo, I believed it could fire single-shots of 4d6 MD, and had Aimed, Burst, and Wild firing capabilities.
In reality, it was only ever 2d6 MD per shot; the 4d6 was a preset 5-shot burst setting, and the weapon could not fire burst/sprays.
I was disappointed in this because the weapon went from being one of the best in the game to being one of the most inefficient.
I instituted a house-rule that the 5-shot setting was a pulse, not a burst, boosting the damage to 1d6x10 MD, chalking up the weapon's replacement in CWC to concerns about troops burning through ammunition too swiftly.

That was of minor confusion to me for many years. Then I realized the whole burst/wild spray generic default rules were actually meant for 20th century machine guns and such. While with the lasers guns for Rifts we were just supposed to be using the bursts listed in the weapons individual description.

lol
THAT's also a common misconception.

The burst and spray rules ARE meant for energy weapons too.
Or, at least, they were until RUE (or the RGMG, depending).
This is spelled out very clearly in the original CB1, where Kev talks about it for a page or two, and later they have a sample combat that shows a CS Grunt firing a burst from his C-18 at a Cyberknight.

This is one of the things that seriously bothered me about Rifts for years, and they still havent corrected it. I really wish they had come out with a better format for weapon stats. They need to include the WP required to get bonuses when shooting the weapon (its not always obvious) and they need to tell you what modes of shooting it gets and how much ammo each type uses.

100% Agreed.

[devillin]

Are there rules that you have misread/misunderstood in the past and what did you do once you discovered the "error"?

The C-12 laser rifle wasn't supposed to work the way I believed it to. Due to a typo, I believed it could fire single-shots of 4d6 MD, and had Aimed, Burst, and Wild firing capabilities.
In reality, it was only ever 2d6 MD per shot; the 4d6 was a preset 5-shot burst setting, and the weapon could not fire burst/sprays.
I was disappointed in this because the weapon went from being one of the best in the game to being one of the most inefficient.
I instituted a house-rule that the 5-shot setting was a pulse, not a burst, boosting the damage to 1d6x10 MD, chalking up the weapon's replacement in CWC to concerns about troops burning through ammunition too swiftly.

I guess everyone did this one. My group used to rig a C-12 up to an e-drum and fire 20 round bursts. Until the stat fixes came out for the weapons, we figured that the only reason the CS used a railgun on the SAMAS was because so many creatures of magic could be impervious to energy. We were regularly ripping off 2d6x14 bursts on all of our big opponents.

[Iczer]

I once had a Rules Lawyer try some jibberish on me, but there was this fine chianti nearby. I have a zero tolerance policy for such noise at my table.

I approve.

Batts

[KillWatch]

I don't mind being corrected or informed, but if you insist I am doing wrong despite the GM Rule clause, then you either need to deal or leave

[Iczer]

lol
THAT's also a common misconception.

The burst and spray rules ARE meant for energy weapons too.
Or, at least, they were until RUE (or the RGMG, depending).
This is spelled out very clearly in the original CB1, where Kev talks about it for a page or two, and later they have a sample combat that shows a CS Grunt firing a burst from his C-18 at a Cyberknight.

yeah, that's the same combat that has a guy parrying energy blasts without penalty, firing aimed shots while having a vibro blade swung at him (a call for a wild shot if I ever saw one) and a guy manifesting weapons out of thin air (does it count as an action to draw a weapon nowadays?)

Batts

[Killer Cyborg]

lol
THAT's also a common misconception.

The burst and spray rules ARE meant for energy weapons too.
Or, at least, they were until RUE (or the RGMG, depending).
This is spelled out very clearly in the original CB1, where Kev talks about it for a page or two, and later they have a sample combat that shows a CS Grunt firing a burst from his C-18 at a Cyberknight.

yeah, that's the same combat that has a guy parrying energy blasts without penalty,

Yes, a cyberknight. One of the classes that is listed on the previous page as being able to parry energy blasts.

firing aimed shots while having a vibro blade swung at him (a call for a wild shot if I ever saw one)

You apparently never looked on p. 9 of the same book, which lists the things that make a person need a Wild shot.
"Being attacked by a vibro-blade" is not among them.

and a guy manifesting weapons out of thin air (does it count as an action to draw a weapon nowadays?)
Batts

Each combatant had a pistol and a knife.
Each combatant presumably has two hands.

But if you don't believe the sample combat, try reading the section on p. 8-9 that describes the burst/spray rules and how they work with both energy and conventional weapons.

[ghost2020]

Yeah, that's what I never understood, is how so many players that I met at cons and other places never thought that energy weapons burst fired, even though CB1 said so.
Eh, whatever.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, that's what I never understood, is how so many players that I met at cons and other places never thought that energy weapons burst fired, even though CB1 said so.
Eh, whatever.

I know.
Here Kevin actually came out and gave a very detailed answer and explanation that took up a couple of pages, one of the best and clearest answers ever written for anything in Rifts.... and people just ignored it.

I can see why he doesn't often bother answering questions in such detail anymore.

Shame, though.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah, that's what I never understood, is how so many players that I met at cons and other places never thought that energy weapons burst fired, even though CB1 said so.
Eh, whatever.

I know.
Here Kevin actually came out and gave a very detailed answer and explanation that took up a couple of pages, one of the best and clearest answers ever written for anything in Rifts.... and people just ignored it.

I can see why he doesn't often bother answering questions in such detail anymore.

Shame, though.

Almost everyone I played with thought they burst fired pre-RUE. There was many a time we would rip a clip in a game heh.

RGMG was the first place to generally nerf bursts/sprays, suggesting that we instead go with a two-shot "double-tap" with 2x the damage of a normal round.
But even back before that, you saw a lot of formerly burst-capable weapons get nerfed down to "Single Shot Only."

I always thought that the bursts and sprays made the game a lot more interesting.
Of course, I often find "deadly" to be interesting, and I guess that a lot of other people didn't feel the same way.

[ghost2020]

Yeah that's one of those moments when RIFTS started getting into that weird 'things not making sense' phase.
- -10 to dodge
-no burst fire weapons?
-a decent attribute chart (finally in RUE), but still that wasn't super
-double tap weapons
-body armor getting really high numbers (now with no burst and high body armor values combat literally takes forever without some sort of minion rules)
-

Yet we still don't have a good set of 'use untrained' rules for skills or attribute checks. The tacked on Perception roll (from Nightbane). Too many subsystems.

Ok, sorry for thread jack!

[Crucible]

I have always (and still do) make it so that auto-dodge means that you can dodge as much as you want without using a movement or attack. Would someone please clarify?

[ghost2020]

I've understood that autodoge gives you a free dodge action, it doesn't cost you an attack.

Now that I think about it, not sure how many times per round you can use it. Hmmm don't have my books in front of me.

I also rule that if that person fails the auto dodge that they can choose to use a normal dodge.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have always (and still do) make it so that auto-dodge means that you can dodge as much as you want without using a movement or attack. Would someone please clarify?

That's right.
Autododge means that doding does not cost you an attack.

[KillWatch]

While I agree it doesn't cost an attack, I only allow anyone to dodge a number of times equal to your number of attacks

[Iczer]

But if you don't believe the sample combat, try reading the section on p. 8-9 that describes the burst/spray rules and how they work with both energy and conventional weapons.

It's not so much that I don't believe the combat sample, only that the dozens of conflicting rules formed, created and contradicted since CB1 came out simply makes the whole thing look silly in retrospect. I personally doubt someone could make an aimed shot while in melee combat with one or more opponents, and that's just my take on it. I also have difficulty reconciling a combat example which has opponent's dodging and parrying 'point blank' weapons fire without penalties with the RMB that states that regular dodging of point blank weapons fire is at a substantial penalty (and that it's 2 actions for an aimed shot now).

All I'm saying is that the CB1 is a lumbering dinosaur, and while it makes excelent points, it is actually contradicted by existing, newer rules and as such is a poorer example of combat, not a better one.

Batts.

[Crucible]

I just let them keep dodging for as long as they'd like. You can't dodge forever...

[tobefrnk]

When I first started playing the old edition Robotech, we made the common mistake of adding ALL character cambat bonuses to the Mecha combat bonuses across across the board when piloting.

[Crucible]

When I first started playing the old edition Robotech, we made the common mistake of adding ALL character cambat bonuses to the Mecha combat bonuses across across the board when piloting.

Is there any other way???

[tobefrnk]

When I first started playing the old edition Robotech, we made the common mistake of adding ALL character cambat bonuses to the Mecha combat bonuses across across the board when piloting.

Is there any other way???

I should clarify. Specifically it was the hand to hand strike bonuses we combined with range weapon bonuses when we shouldn't have. Ah, there was something to be said about being able to fire one's GU-11 gunpod with a +20 to strike.

[Killer Cyborg]

But if you don't believe the sample combat, try reading the section on p. 8-9 that describes the burst/spray rules and how they work with both energy and conventional weapons.

It's not so much that I don't believe the combat sample, only that the dozens of conflicting rules formed, created and contradicted since CB1 came out simply makes the whole thing look silly in retrospect.

Which conflicting rules are you specifically talking about?
What rules ever say that the burst/spray rules do NOT apply to energy weapons?

I personally doubt someone could make an aimed shot while in melee combat with one or more opponents, and that's just my take on it.

Yes, it is.

I also have difficulty reconciling a combat example which has opponent's dodging and parrying 'point blank' weapons fire without penalties with the RMB that states that regular dodging of point blank weapons fire is at a substantial penalty (and that it's 2 actions for an aimed shot now).

You seem to be using RUE to try to argue about what the rules were a decade+ before RUE came out.
I don't follow the logic in that.

All I'm saying is that the CB1 is a lumbering dinosaur, and while it makes excelent points, it is actually contradicted by existing, newer rules and as such is a poorer example of combat, not a better one.

Feel free to like the new rules better.
This does not affect what the rules used to be.

[magustg1]

In our first game we did combat the D&D, "all attacks at once" way.

Yeah, whoever won initiative pretty much won the battle.

Now we do it the proper "back and forth" way.

[devillin]

I just let them keep dodging for as long as they'd like. You can't dodge forever...

My group lets you roll one dodge/autododge roll, and then the result carries over until your next action comes up. So if you rolled an 8 for your dodge/autododge roll, it carries until your next action. You can't reroll if another attack comes through that is higher than your original roll.

[Crucible]

When I first started playing the old edition Robotech, we made the common mistake of adding ALL character cambat bonuses to the Mecha combat bonuses across across the board when piloting.

Is there any other way???

I should clarify. Specifically it was the hand to hand strike bonuses we combined with range weapon bonuses when we shouldn't have. Ah, there was something to be said about being able to fire one's GU-11 gunpod with a +20 to strike.

Oh no!

[Shorty Lickens]

When I first started playing the old edition Robotech, we made the common mistake of adding ALL character cambat bonuses to the Mecha combat bonuses across across the board when piloting.

Is there any other way???

I should clarify. Specifically it was the hand to hand strike bonuses we combined with range weapon bonuses when we shouldn't have. Ah, there was something to be said about being able to fire one's GU-11 gunpod with a +20 to strike.

Oh no!

For Rifts I made a combat table that seperates all the bonuses you get for different situations. I added it to my Big PC sheet.
http://www.savefile.com/files/1943667

Its the third spreadsheet in the Excel document. If you dont have Microsoft Excel, there are free programs on the web for reading Office documents.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fr ... f&oq=&aqi=

The idea behind it is to keep all your bonuses seperate, but in a convenient place so you can add up the appropriate ones when applicable. Keep in mind you dont get the sniper bonus just when using single shots. You also have to be layed out on a flat surface and aiming, like a sniper does.