do we have a caliber equivalent for TX-5 explosive rounds?

[AzathothXy]

I've been going with 20mm, remember they do have a pistol, any thing bigger would be to combersome.

That's certainly reasonable. Now what do you use for BigBore Revolver rounds?

I don't get what you're talk'in about.

Guns from the New West book.

[azazel1024]

I'd say 15mm sounds about right. Based on how the TX rounds work, through explosive rather then kinetic energy, I'd say they are pretty low velocity. I think the only way you could use them in a handgun and also fire kinetic projectiles without having mechanical or supernatural strength to handle the gun would be using subcaliber projectiles in the gun with a sabot, say .50 S&W or .44 magnum subcaliber rounds with a plastic sabot to fit the rifling of the larger barrel and chamber (sabot for the cartridge as well, or simply custom cartridge).

I'd deffinitely have a minimum strength requirement of at least 20 to handle the .50 S&W, damned hard to fire with any kind of accuracy for even a modestly strong person. It requires a big person with a lot of strength to really be able to handle.

20mm...yeah right, that would pratically rip your hand off if you tried to fire something that massive.
-Matt

PS I'd agree on the big bore pistol, I figure it is something around the equivelent of a .50 S&W magnum version (if there was such a round).

[glitterboy2098]

in my games, 18.5mm. basically the same size as a 12guage. i went with this for two reasons. first, it's basically a grenade launcher. it doesn't fire bullets, it fires 'mini-grenades' (looking at the damage and blast radius, which is sorta a shrunk down HE grenade). and second, with a 800ft range, it isn't firing those shells very fast. using a 18.5mm shell you could pluasibly fit a 4D6md explosive grenade (using triax tech) and enough explosive to lob it 800ft with managable recoil.

the "pistol" isn't a normal pistol, it's basically a one handed "bloop-gun". shoot, even in the art it's little more than a cut down shotgun, much like how the russian made the "Obrez" pistol using a cut down Mosin-nagant...

i wouldn't let the shells be used in a normal shotgun though. the shotgun would need to be specially made to be compatable, due to the propellant being abit more energetic than normal smokeless powders.

[Jefffar]

I believe there's a weapon in the Merc Ops book designed to fire 12 guage shotgun rounds and Triax Pump rounds.

An aside about the pump rounds - since they are relatively low velocity . . . how do the solid DU or U rounds do MD? They won't be striking with enough force to penetrate much better than a modern rifle would.

[Rallan]

Do we have the basic dimensions of a TX-5/TX-16/CS-5 explosive cartridge listed anywhere? I was considering a custom built automatic pistol chambered for these explosive cartridges and was wondering just what sort of bullets it could fire. .500 S&W? .50 Beowulf?

around the size of a shotgun shell i would say - roughly

Y'know, this is another case where you've gotta ask why the guns are worth so much. If all the destructive power comes from the MD explosive shell (and since it ain't fired at hypervelocities from a railgun, we can assume it's all in the shell), why are the guns so expensive? Triax's pump pistol and pump rifle sell for similar prices to energy pistols and rifles, when they're basically just slug-throwers hurling a projectile at speeds which wouldn't normally do mega-damage.

[Nightmaster]

Please guys remember the description ok?

The TX-5/C-5 Pump Pistol have a payload of 5 rounds, if the cartridges were the same size a 10/12guage shotgun round then the entire pistol would not be useable by human troops due to the size the pistol would need to have.

More probably the rounds have the general size of .44/.50 round like the one used in the Desert Eagle line of pistols. Otherwise the pistol would be giant size.

Just my two cents

PS. I dont remember where but I believe there is a picture of a CS grunt using a C-5 during a fight but I dont remember in which book.

[Captain Shiva]

Do we have the basic dimensions of a TX-5/TX-16/CS-5 explosive cartridge listed anywhere? I was considering a custom built automatic pistol chambered for these explosive cartridges and was wondering just what sort of bullets it could fire. .500 S&W? .50 Beowulf?

I would say it is about the same size as a 20 gauge shotgun shell,15.625mm. In order to fit 5 in a magazine tube,they must not be much longer than 1.5''. Kitsune already has some TX-5 weapons on his site;you might want to take a look. http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts ... lworks.htm

[Nightmaster]

Do we have the basic dimensions of a TX-5/TX-16/CS-5 explosive cartridge listed anywhere? I was considering a custom built automatic pistol chambered for these explosive cartridges and was wondering just what sort of bullets it could fire. .500 S&W? .50 Beowulf?

I would say it is about the same size as a 20 gauge shotgun shell,15.625mm. In order to fit 5 in a magazine tube,they must not be much longer than 1.5''. Kitsune already has some TX-5 weapons on his site;you might want to take a look. http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts ... lworks.htm

This makes the round too large and also too much strong a kick for anyone to use it with a single hand (even with two hands it will be a stress on the guy using it)

Right now I am looking at the pic of the TX-5 and TX-16 and by proportion (thanks keving long for the nice draws) I would sai that those rounds are no more large than a .50 round and even then I am at a loss on how much larger than a .44 round is a .50 round in reality. I will explain why.

In the pick in the NGR book if you look at the rifle and remember that the rifle can carry up to 16 of those rounds (that are the same rounds used in the pistol) then the round itself would need to be small enough to be chambered by the weapon in packs of 16. Also in the same pick you have the ejection port of the rifle clearly depicted.

To find the actual size of the round then is just a matter of logic and proportion if you make a comparission with the hand of the guy that will grip that weapon and by the looks of it that round is not very large (if compared to a 12 guage shell).

Just my two cents

[Mack]

I believe there's a weapon in the Merc Ops book designed to fire 12 guage shotgun rounds and Triax Pump rounds.

That's a great reference, and refers to "Large-bore shotgun rounds."

[G]

I don't know how big they are.

I would make the big bore round & the TX5 round interchangable. One is a shaped charge the other is concussion. Use modern large caliber pistol (costing 1/10th the big bore & TX5) and you can fire both. use two clips, switching as necessary.

If someone hits you with an area of effect weapon, it might have been worth 10x to get a mdc version that wouldn't be slagged...

[glitterboy2098]

Please guys remember the description ok?
The TX-5/C-5 Pump Pistol have a payload of 5 rounds, if the cartridges were the same size a 10/12guage shotgun round then the entire pistol would not be useable by human troops due to the size the pistol would need to have.
More probably the rounds have the general size of .44/.50 round like the one used in the Desert Eagle line of pistols. Otherwise the pistol would be giant size.

actually, they have to be bigger. the desert eagle is 3.9 pounds. the TX-5 is 5 piounds. the Desert Eagle has an 8 round removable magazine. the TX-5 has a 5 round built in magazine that has to be reloaded by hand. no to mention it's a pump action weapon, which is usually seen with a tube magazine, since it can't be combined with a removeable one.
lets also not forget the TX-16 pump rifle, which fires the exact same round, and is called a "glorified shotgun". and the TX-5 is fluffed as being essentually a smaller version of the TX-16.
keep in mind that large pistols do exist (my example of the Obrez was sort of an extreme example, but is comparable in mass and range to the TX-5..

I believe there's a weapon in the Merc Ops book designed to fire 12 guage shotgun rounds and Triax Pump rounds.

That's a great reference, and refers to "Large-bore shotgun rounds."

well, 12 guage is the largest standard guage around. bigger guages have been used, but not since the switch to self-contained rounds. in older times you used to see some pretty big bore shotguns used as pintle mounts, but those were muzzleloaders and were generally custom builds.

oh, and for those trying to work out how big it is by the art? Art isn't Canon.

[Nightmaster]

Please guys remember the description ok?
The TX-5/C-5 Pump Pistol have a payload of 5 rounds, if the cartridges were the same size a 10/12guage shotgun round then the entire pistol would not be useable by human troops due to the size the pistol would need to have.
More probably the rounds have the general size of .44/.50 round like the one used in the Desert Eagle line of pistols. Otherwise the pistol would be giant size.

actually, they have to be bigger. the desert eagle is 3.9 pounds. the TX-5 is 5 piounds. the Desert Eagle has an 8 round removable magazine. the TX-5 has a 5 round built in magazine that has to be reloaded by hand. no to mention it's a pump action weapon, which is usually seen with a tube magazine, since it can't be combined with a removeable one.
lets also not forget the TX-16 pump rifle, which fires the exact same round, and is called a "glorified shotgun". and the TX-5 is fluffed as being essentually a smaller version of the TX-16.
keep in mind that large pistols do exist (my example of the Obrez was sort of an extreme example, but is comparable in mass and range to the TX-5.

You is forgeting or have not paying attention to what I said.

See the pick of the TX-16 Pump Rifle in the NGR book.

Pay attention to the ejection port and the handle of the weapon.

Now imagine your hand in the grip and you will see how much large is the damn cartridge.

If I am not mad (or blind) the cartridge dont have the size of a shotgun shell, more likely the size of a .44 or .50 cartridge.

[azazel1024]

Keep in mind megadamage materials. At 5lbs, if the TX-5 was made out of S.D.C. alloys instead it might very well weigh 6 or 7 or even 8lbs. Could be why it is so expensive, because it is made out of nice light weight alloys, keeping it a bit more managable.

As for the recoil, even a pistol caliber 15mm round is going to have a massive recoil, but if that 800ft range isn't particularly flat, more of a grenade trajectory, the recoil would be much more managable. A 40mm grenade is massive in size and weight compared to even a .50 M2 ball, but its velocity is significantly, significantly less. The gun does its damage based on some form of explosive, not kinetic energy.

Now using a kinetic energy round you have a whole different ball game, the round would be way, way, way to large to be able to fired at velocities that could impart resonable kinetic damage. This is why I suggest that if you are going to use kinetic rounds that it uses some kind of subcaliber round, like a 12.7mm subcaliber or even something like maybe an 8-10mm tungsten, DU or osmium subcaliber round.
-Matt

[Jefffar]

Here's a real pistol sized 12 guage, but it fires a special shortened round that doesn't have the full power of a standard 12 guage.

One of my issues with the pump pistol is that apparently it fires the same rounds the pump rifle can deliver accurately at ranges comparable to what an M-16 assault rifle can do. That implies a fairly fast round which means a lot of recoil.

[azazel1024]

I don't have my books close at hand (being at work and all), but what are the ranges? 800ft for the pump pistol and I assume longer for the rifle? A rifle is going to provide a higher muzzle velocity then a pistol would and as I mentioned before, if it is being fired in more of an arc then a fairly flat trajectory then 800ft is very possible with a relatively low powered pistol. A rifle with a bit more barrel to it would have a longer range, quite a bit in fact.

Heck, maybe the rounds cost the same between the rifle and pistol, but are actually different. The projectile might be the same, but maybe the rifle rounds have a substantially more powerful propellant charge. They could even use the same cartridge, but with the pistol rounds having only a partial propellant charge in the casing with the rifle rounds having a full charge so that they are interchangable...though not recommended using the rifle rounds in the pistol unless your in power armor, a borg or supernatural.
-Matt

[glitterboy2098]

actually, it's 800ft for both. the pistol has identical stats save for mass and payload. which matches its description in the fluff as being a smaller version of the rifle.

[Jefffar]

Lobo, that's part of the problem. Hitting a target consistently at 1600 feet requires a fair bit of velocity in the cartridge (otherwise you'll have to aim several feet above the target and hope the round drops onto them. Fine with grenade launchers, but not so good with a direct fire, no blast radius weapon).

Even if the pistol is only good out to 800 feet, most modern pistols firing rounds at decent velocity can't hope to reliably hit a target at that range unless bolted in place and using a ballistic computer. The maximum effective range for a modern pistol is in the 100 to 200 foot range and that is using ammunition that has a higher muzzle velocity than any known shotgun.

Oh and speaking of shotguns, a full length shotgun is also only good for 100 to 200 feet, the pistol sized ones much less.

So the Pump weapon ammunition has to have some magc range booster, or there is an absolutely hellacious recoil.

[Jefffar]

And that the rounds are described as being similar to a large shotgun round in Mercops.


Incidentally, a .45 ACP is still smaller than that 12 to 15 mm range. That range is where you're likely to see a 20 or 16 Guage shotgun.

[Jefffar]

Well the rifle version of the weapon, which fires the same ammunition is described as being like a shotgun. There is a shotgun/grenade launcher that can fire the same ammunition in Merc Ops and both of the pump weapons mate tubular magazines na dpump actions similar to modern shotguns.

So the round they fire, at least dimensionally, must be similar to a modern shotgun rounds (not that modern shotguns can fire solid rounds as well as a variety of payload rounds including grenade like explosive rounds).

The problem is that this pistol extracts far more performance from what should be a heavy weight round (it needs to carry a sizable weight of explosives to do more damage per shot to the target than any other mass market North American pistol built using human technology) than our understanding of physics would indicate possible.

Firign this thing one handed should be comperable to one handing a S&W 500 except that it will have a much higher muzzle velocity as it has to hit reliably out almost twice as far.

So this weapon must use some sort of radical technology which alters the laws of physics as we know it (the illustration provides no exterior recoil compensator and there is no room for some internal mechanism to go along with that 5 round tubular magazine) or is only usable by Juicers and 'Borgs.

Bottom line is, defining it as an existing caliber is impossible.

[Jefffar]

The Russians did make soem interesting large caliber revolvers (here and here) using a modified 32 guage shotgun shell. They were even capable of firing a variety of special purpose rounds.

Of course we again face the problem that these weapons are large and heavy by pistol standards and have approximately 1/8th the effective range of the pump pistol yet had barely manageable recoil.

[Jefffar]

Well yeah we know the gun itself is similar to a pump shotgun but there are many different bore sizes, I just don't think it's the huge 10-12 gauge bore some think it is because the description and illustration never even hinted at it being that big.

All the reasons you mentioned is why I think it's more likely a smaller caliber using a high explosive shape charged pellet. Then the propellant charge could be large enough to kick it out 800 feet yet still have the kick of a S&W 500 which is totally fine and acceptable. It could also be ramjet with the explosive shape charge, that would extend the range. Or it could be using some type accelerator sabot rounds to increase velocity. And then using aerodynamic shaped rounds would help with range too. It could even be a mix and match all these things to get the required velocity, range and damage.

I would have to do some proportional analysis of the illustration to get an exact measure, but we're looking are a pretty sizable weapon to get the required explosive payload for the projectile.

Sabot rounds would reduce the amount of payload and apparently in this weapon payload does more damage than muzzle energy (though apparently a DU-Round compares favorably to a round fired from a SAMAS railgun, at least at short ranges). Aerodynamics can only help so much (an aerodynamically designed, 12 guage shotgun sabot can duble the range, but we are still far short of the pump pistol, let alone the pump rifle's performance). Ramjets seem to be the only way to go that doesn't increase recoil - but the book doesn't specify ramjets, it describes the weapon as performing similar to a shotgun or grenade launcher which again implies a low velocity.

[azazel1024]

Well, if it is a thin MD alloy covering a shaped charge explosive that could explain a higher muzzle velocity. Lead has a specific gravity of around 11.3. If the alloys and explosive had a pretty low sg of maybe 3, you'd be looking at a projectile that had about 1/4th the mass and twice the velocity of a similar sized lead round. Velocity would certainly drop off pretty quick, but it would probably be much more accurate over a short distance then a heavier, slower round would be.

Besides, maybe Triax has some kind of really nifty recoil compensator built in. Maybe the chamber recoils early on in the firing event with a recoil compensator caming down from the top of the chamber, with venting gases somewhat upward and to the sides. This would reduce muzzle climb and recoil...and if the cartridge was powerful enough you'd still have tons of force imparted in to the round while only having moderate or heavy recoil (instead of taking your hand off). Sort of like a muzzle brake in the chamber instead of at the barrel tip.
-matt

[glitterboy2098]

high velocity compared to what? high/low is a reletive scale, and we have no baseline. modern bullets are considered 'high velocity', but so are grenade launchers. a bow and arrow can be considered high velocity as well, if the comparison is being made to sometihng like a thrown rock.

had they said "fires at X feet per second" we'd be able to use that statement to figure stuff out. but "high velocity", without an established baseline, is useless for determaining anything.